Union Members betrayed by leaders in the Croke Park Sellout...

Silvio.Dante

Firstly I'm a CPSU member on €400 a week.

This 'deal' was not about pay. Its about members being asked to agree to possible mandatory decentralisation in the future. To their disgrace the union leaders tried to pull the wool over members eyes by spinning the non commitments on pay and totaly left out the Redeployment and Pensions documents which concede massive Terms and conditions of employment we currently hold and on top of that we were asked to accept a no strike clause for the next four years.

Now we've come to expect this type of slash and burn tactics from the Dept of Finance but its downright reprehensible for our union leaders to do the Govt's grubby work for them.

Thankfully members across the Public service have read the small print and will reject it out of hand...

murphaph

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Thankfully members across the Public service have read the small print and will reject it out of hand...

Go ahead so. Your pay will be cut by 8% again in December.

400 quid a week GUARANTEED is better than a lot of people. I presume that is your net take home pay?

The dole and all that will be cut again too, have no fear, so 400 a week will start to look very attractive compared to 150.

Head The Wall

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Firstly I'm a CPSU member on €400 a week.

This 'deal' was not about pay. Its about members being asked to agree to possible mandatory decentralisation in the future. To their disgrace the union leaders tried to pull the wool over members eyes by spinning the non commitments on pay and totaly left out the Redeployment and Pensions documents which concede massive Terms and conditions of employment we currently hold and on top of that we were asked to accept a no strike clause for the next four years.

Now we've come to expect this type of slash and burn tactics from the Dept of Finance but its downright reprehensible for our union leaders to do the Govt's grubby work for them.

Thankfully members across the Public service have read the small print and will reject it out of hand...

It has everything to do about pay, if savings aren't made then your pay will be cut again. Have ye not learned that at this stage

What do you actually expect will happen by rejecting this? Do you think the unions will be back at the negotiating table getting a better deal for ye.

There isn't a hope in hell that any government in the world would guarantee no paycuts like ye are expecting.

Your wage is irrelevant to this debate also

Taxipete29

If you reject this deal you will be hit with more wage cuts and nothing will be done about it because their is no appetite across the PS for an all out strike.

Will you feel less betrayed if you end up on a picket line collecting a tiny amount of strike pay??

seamus

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Thankfully members across the Public service have read the small print and will reject it out of hand...

On the basis that you want your pay cuts back?

Why can a few people not seem to understand this? The money to pay you, simply isn't there. We can't afford to pay the old PS salaries in the short to medium term. No amount of foot stomping and striking can change that basic fact.

NAMA and whatever bailouts are irrelevant. Their sources are different, their returns are different, their aims are different.

Your employer's finances are not in a good way, so the best that you can hope for is an agreement that minimises the impact on its employees; you. You will not get any agreement that makes life sweeter for you because we're all out of sugar.

Silvio.Dante

murphaph wrote: »

Go ahead so. Your pay will be cut by 8% again in December.

400 quid a week GUARANTEED is better than a lot of people. I presume that is your net take home pay?

The dole and all that will be cut again too, have no fear, so 400 a week will start to look very attractive compared to 150.

There are no guarantees on pay in this agreement. Each one is under the get out clause of prevailing economic conditions...

Silvio.Dante

Head The Wall wrote: »

It has everything to do about pay, if savings aren't made then your pay will be cut again. Have ye not learned that at this stage

What do you actually expect will happen by rejecting this? Do you think the unions will be back at the negotiating table getting a better deal for ye.

There isn't a hope in hell that any government in the world would guarantee no paycuts like ye are expecting.

Your wage is irrelevant to this debate also

I agree with you that we've no guarantee on pay. Why then would we voluntarily sign up to a deal that gives huge concessions, castrates our power to have a strike option for nothing concrete in return..?

Silvio.Dante

Taxipete29 wrote: »

If you reject this deal you will be hit with more wage cuts and nothing will be done about it because their is no appetite across the PS for an all out strike.

Let them try and cut our pay in future. I've no doubt they will but at least we'll not have agreed to mandatory decentralisation and changes to our pensions...

Silvio.Dante

seamus wrote: »

On the basis that you want your pay cuts back?

Why can a few people not seem to understand this? The money to pay you, simply isn't there. We can't afford to pay the old PS salaries in the short to medium term. No amount of foot stomping and striking can change that basic fact.

NAMA and whatever bailouts are irrelevant. Their sources are different, their returns are different, their aims are different.

Your employer's finances are not in a good way, so the best that you can hope for is an agreement that minimises the impact on its employees; you. You will not get any agreement that makes life sweeter for you because we're all out of sugar.

We may never say our paycuts clawed back which is why it would be ludicrous to give such big concessions on redeployment...

OMD

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Let them try and cut our pay in future. I've no doubt they will but at least we'll not have agreed to mandatory decentralisation and changes to our pensions...

Don't be ridiculous. They don't have to "try" to cut your wages. They will just cut them. Can't you see. No one cares about you. Go on strike. No one cares. The government hold all the cards. The CPSu have none. Get real.

steof1984

murphaph wrote: »

Go ahead so. Your pay will be cut by 8% again in December.

400 quid a week GUARANTEED is better than a lot of people. I presume that is your net take home pay?

The dole and all that will be cut again too, have no fear, so 400 a week will start to look very attractive compared to 150.

If his pay will be deducted 8% as you say won’t that mean he won’t be on €400 a week? He will be on €368.

I also think it’s a gross over exaggeration to say they will cut welfare by 25%.

So I think its wrong of you to compare €400 to €150

Silvio.Dante

OMD wrote: »

Don't be ridiculous. They don't have to "try" to cut your wages. They will just cut them. Can't you see. No one cares about you. Go on strike. No one cares. The government hold all the cards. The CPSu have none. Get real.

We are getting very real. We've told our leaders to stuff this betrayal dressed up as a deal where the sun doesn't shine. What we have we hold and prepare for the new wave of attacks on our pay...

The_Honeybadger

Rejection of this deal is simply cutting off ye're noses to spite ye're face. The coutry is in financial meltdown and all the strikes and protests in the world will not change that. I can see this getting really ugly in the coming months as the Croke Park deal seems to be dead in the water. Blair Horan said this morning that it can be renegotiated but I am not so sure the Government will be willing to give any more ground than they have, as we simply don't know what is around the corner. It would be very risky to make promises that they can't keep, even though they will likely be out of power by the time it would be necessary to renege on any agreements so who knows.

Silvio.Dante

Troll Account 1 wrote: »

Go ahead, strike. You won't be missed. You do f.uck all anyway.

Why strike now. We've got to keep that option for extreme circumstances...

Permabear

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Silvio.Dante

mickeyk wrote: »

Rejection of this deal is simply cutting off ye're noses to spite ye're face.

Rejecting this deal is our only option as it asks us to make huge concessions on redeployment and pensions for nothing in return. A no brainer...

Permabear

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Silvio.Dante

donegalfella wrote: »

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I've threatened no one here...

OMD

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Why strike now. We've got to keep that option for extreme circumstances...

Lets say you go on strike and after a month or so the government give in. What do you hope to get? What do you realistically expect to get?

The_Honeybadger

donegalfella wrote: »

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+1 there are hundreds of thousands of people who would love to be lowly paid if that is the definition

OMD

steof1984 wrote: »

If his pay will be deducted 8% as you say won’t that mean he won’t be on €400 a week? He will be on €368.

No it doesn't. That is his after tax and after levy income and before yearly increments. His pay cuts so far have cost him about 50C a day in after tax income. Another 8% will see his pay next year down about €8-10 a week

Silvio.Dante

donegalfella wrote: »

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It would certainly be up there for consideration in such a circumstance...

seamus

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Rejecting this deal is our only option as it asks us to make huge concessions on redeployment and pensions for nothing in return. A no brainer...

What you're getting in return is stability. A steadfast guarantee that your jobs and your existing salaries are safe.

The present course we're on means that lots of you are going to lose your jobs and all of you are going to have your pay cut again.

Silvio.Dante

OMD wrote: »

Lets say you go on strike and after a month or so the government give in. What do you hope to get? What do you realistically expect to get?

I'd have to know what we went on strike for first...:p

Silvio.Dante

seamus wrote: »

What you're getting in return is stability. A steadfast guarantee that your jobs and your existing salaries are safe.

The present course we're on means that lots of you are going to lose your jobs and all of you are going to have your pay cut again.

All the 'guarantees' have provisos that mean the Govt can renegue on them. Read the agreement if you don't believe me. So its ridiculous to expect us to make such concessions...

OMD

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

I'd have to know what we went on strike for first...:p

That is the question. What would you go on strike for?

P. Breathnach

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

I agree with you that we've no guarantee on pay. Why then would we voluntarily sign up to a deal that gives huge concessions, castrates our power to have a strike option for nothing concrete in return..?

Before answering your question, let me tell you that I am in the public service camp (I am a retired public servant, and many of my family have been, or currently are, public servants).

Now your answer: I believe you should accept the deal because it is the best you can get. The government is not in a position to offer you anything more. Then the unions should concentrate on trying to have it implemented in the best way possible -- that is, to deliver improvements in service delivery with the least pain to staff.

I do not believe that the union leaders are selling out on their members. They are taking a more temperate line because they are looking at the big picture, and they see how damaging it would be to the interests of their members (and to society more generally) if they go down the paths that their more disgruntled members, of whom there are many, would favour.

The_Honeybadger

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Rejecting this deal is our only option as it asks us to make huge concessions on redeployment and pensions for nothing in return. A no brainer...

That's fair enough but you didn't have much sympathy before this agreement, you will have zero if you reject it. Even some of your leaders seem to have come around to how bad things are in this country, the Celtic Tiger is dead and gone and it ain't coming back any time soon.

Permabear

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Silvio.Dante

OMD wrote: »

That is the question. What would you go on strike for?

I've no crystal ball mate...

OMD

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

I've no crystal ball mate...

So basically reject the deal and then let the unions who did a sell out negotiate again if the government are willing to negotiate. So what are you willing to compromise for your rejection of this deal? What will the unions have to go back to the table?

Silvio.Dante

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Before answering your question, let me tell you that I am in the public service camp (I am a retired public servant, and many of my family have been, or currently are, public servants).

Now your answer: I believe you should accept the deal because it is the best you can get. The government is not in a position to offer you anything more. Then the unions should concentrate on trying to have it implemented in the best way possible -- that is, to deliver improvements in service delivery with the least pain to staff.

I do not believe that the union leaders are selling out on their members. They are taking a more temperate line because they are looking at the big picture, and they see how damaging it would be to the interests of their members (and to society more generally) if they go down the paths that their more disgruntled members, of whom there are many, would favour.

But the reality of this agreement is we get nothing, nada, zilch in concrete terms while we give up huge, open ended concessions on mandatory decentralistaion. How can you figure accepting this is our best possible deal while if we reject we keep what we hold for now until the next assault...?

I live in dublin and with this deal I could be sent to Kenmare in the morning at the whim of the Dept of Finance. Not oging to happen I'm afraid.

Silvio.Dante

mickeyk wrote: »

That's fair enough but you didn't have much sympathy before this agreement, you will have zero if you reject it. Even some of your leaders seem to have come around to how bad things are in this country, the Celtic Tiger is dead and gone and it ain't coming back any time soon.

In truth this is not about popular support. Never was. Its about protecting out T & C's of employment as much as possible...

Silvio.Dante

OMD wrote: »

So basically reject the deal and then let the unions who did a sell out negotiate again if the government are willing to negotiate. So what are you willing to compromise for your rejection of this deal? What will the unions have to go back to the table?

I can see there being alot of union leaders sitting a little less comfortably in their plush offices. this is the first time in my memory when the members have turned wholsale and rejected a negotiated deal between ICTU and the Govt. These are unprecedented times and I cannot fortell how things will pan out...

OMD

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

I can see there being alot of union leaders sitting a little less comfortably in their plush offices. this is the first time in my memory when the members have turned wholsale and rejected a negotiated deal between ICTU and the Govt. These are unprecedented times and I cannot fortell how things will pan out...

Actually members haven't rejected the deal. The union leaders you are talking about are the ones recommending rejection. The members haven't voted

murphaph

steof1984 wrote: »

If his pay will be deducted 8% as you say won’t that mean he won’t be on €400 a week? He will be on €368.

I said his pay will be cut by 8% in December if he doesn't accept the deal, or at least most people would have interpreted my post that way :rolleyes:

steof1984 wrote: »

I also think it’s a gross over exaggeration to say they will cut welfare by 25%.

Why? It has been cut by 50% for younger people already!! It was cut from 204 to 196 in the last budget, think again if you think the government can afford not to hit it again this year and the year after that until eventually it is in line with the UK, €73 a week!

steof1984 wrote: »

So I think its wrong of you to compare €400 to €150

We'll see who's wrong. If I'm wrong the country will be bankrupt.

zootroid

donegalfella wrote: »

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To be fair, he did say in his OP that he was on 400 euro a week, not 35k.

Anyway, one of the reasons I dislike arguing with anyone in the public sector is they always tell you their net weekly wage, rather than their gross salary. But a friend of mine doing an administration job in the private sector earns 22k a year, or according to this 389 euro a week.

So although the OP may feel his wages are low, he is in fact better paid than the private sector (if 22k a year is to be taken as the average salary for an administration position).

But the main issue here is the public comes first, and the state cannot afford your wages. Salaries at all levels need to be brought in line with those of the private sector.

Second of all, the recent controversy of queues at the passport office only highlight that the public sector isn't serving the needs of the public adequately enough. If the private sector can perform the service better and cheaper then it should be outsourced. In fact in general I am against governments providing services that can be easily provided by the private sector (eg, governments have no business running airlines).

zootroid

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

In truth this is not about popular support. Never was. Its about protecting out T & C's of employment as much as possible...

Disagree with you there, the actions of a union and its members has always needed popular support

hobochris

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

But the reality of this agreement is we get nothing, nada, zilch in concrete terms while we give up huge, open ended concessions on mandatory decentralistaion. How can you figure accepting this is our best possible deal while if we reject we keep what we hold for now until the next assault...?

I live in dublin and with this deal I could be sent to Kenmare in the morning at the whim of the Dept of Finance. Not oging to happen I'm afraid.

The Reality is that In return you get to keep your job. pay and condition cuts are better then job cuts, just ask those who joined the dole queues the past 1-2 years.

Or even better, go ahead and throw your toys out the pram, That way the government can replace you rather then negotiate with you.

thebaldsoprano

Troll Account 1 wrote: »

Yes privatize everything because poor people don't really matter, do they? You must be a business owner who'd love to pay your slaves 0.50 euro a day.

Or, privatise because poor people do matter. Less money spent propping up inefficient and over priced union outfits might make more available for those who actually need it.

EDIT: damn - just copped on to the username...

Permabear

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RichardAnd

If you're on 400 euro a week, then you could be on 380 this time next year, or less, who knows. What is 100% is that PS pay is coming down in december because it simply has to.

I've heard hundreds of PS workers claim they didn't cause the recession but that is a stupid argument that holds no water. It's like sitting in a burning building and not helping to put out the fire simply because it was not you that started it.

Regardless of who is to blame (and it is far, far more people than FF and a few bankers), the facts are that NAMA is there, the deficite is there and that's just how it is. If the PS was a private company, you wouldn't be looking at simple wage cuts, you'd be faced with mass redundancies. So be thankful that is un-likely, though it is not impossible.

But no one is making you work for a small wage. If you don't want to work for that money then you are fully entitled to resign and find a job in the real world...sorry the private sector.

For the record, I'm not one of those people who hates PS workers simply because they have a job. I am, however, a realist and despite the fact that I have many friends and family in the PS, I know cuts are needed and FAST.

My 2 cents.

ninty9er

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Let them try and cut our pay in future. I've no doubt they will but at least we'll not have agreed to mandatory decentralisation and changes to our pensions...

You are now being given the option to agree to them. This is what the government wants, and if you do so it won't crunch your nuts for the next 4 years.

If you don't agree with them, the government will impose them unilaterally, well at least I hope it will, and it will also castrate your pay.

I said it to my aunt who is in the ASTI the other day....you just remember when you're sitting up there on your high horse that the INTO will be remembered when there's negotiations going on in future, the TUI and ASTI on the other hand had better start stocking up on Vaseline.

And I don't give a crap what anyone says, an increment IS a pay rise. The majority of increments should be aboloshied for performance related pay rises.

miju

OMD wrote: »

Actually members haven't rejected the deal. The union leaders you are talking about are the ones recommending rejection. The members haven't voted

not yet but they will. The CPSU were recommending this deal to members going by internal email to it's members.

They VERY quickly saw the backlash and quite militant one at that from it's members and the CPSU executive are now "recommending" a rejection of this agreement.

People seem to underestimate exactly how militant all branches of the PS have become in recent times and also how little they care about public opinion in this dispute as they recognise that PR war is lost.

This will not pass the union membership I'd put my house on it

P. Breathnach

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

... I live in dublin and with this deal I could be sent to Kenmare in the morning at the whim of the Dept of Finance. Not oging to happen I'm afraid.

That's exactly the sort of thing I mean when I say the unions should concentrate on having the deal implemented in the best way possible.

The people who work in Finance are also public servants, and the overwhelming majority of them are decent humane people. What you need is a system to ensure that life-changing decisions are not imposed on people in a capricious or spiteful way. Unions are good at dealing with that sort of thing.

Silvio.Dante

OMD wrote: »

Actually members haven't rejected the deal. The union leaders you are talking about are the ones recommending rejection. The members haven't voted

True. No vote has been cast yet. However the union leaders including Blair Horan came out of Croker declaring 'Peace in Our time' Neville Chamberlain style and tried to furiously spin it to us as an accept this deal or else offer.

Take my own union. On the CPSU hmpage theres a signed note from Blair declaring the 4 main points of the deal are...:

No further pay cuts.

Priority for lower paid, €35,000 and below in restoring pay levels in 2011

Protection of Flexitime. Removed from November 2009 draft

Protection of Work Life Balance. Substantial changes to November 2009 draft


Now despite the fact that points 1 & 2 aren't worth the paper they're wiritten on he failed to even mention the massive sell out on pensions and redeployment. this gross campaign of misinformation has rumbled the ICTU cartel for the charlatons they are. Members are furious by this betrayal and no union CEO is sitting comfy anymore. The PSEU Annual delegate Conference kicks off on thursday. Expect Tom Geraghty(the enemy from within) to be challenged...

Silvio.Dante

zootroid wrote: »

Disagree with you there, the actions of a union and its members has always needed popular support

Tell that to the workers in the ESB, Dublin Bus, Irish rail etc...

Permabear

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Silvio.Dante

hobochris wrote: »

The Reality is that In return you get to keep your job. pay and condition cuts are better then job cuts, just ask those who joined the dole queues the past 1-2 years.

Or even better, go ahead and throw your toys out the pram, That way the government can replace you rather then negotiate with you.

If I were decentralised to Kenmare I'd have to give it up on personal grounds. Grounds that would not be considered by managemnt according to this deal you want me to accept. Are you havin a laff...:D

Silvio.Dante

ninty9er wrote: »

You are now being given the option to agree to them. This is what the government wants, and if you do so it won't crunch your nuts for the next 4 years.

If you don't agree with them, the government will impose them unilaterally, well at least I hope it will, and it will also castrate your pay.

I said it to my aunt who is in the ASTI the other day....you just remember when you're sitting up there on your high horse that the INTO will be remembered when there's negotiations going on in future, the TUI and ASTI on the other hand had better start stocking up on Vaseline.

And I don't give a crap what anyone says, an increment IS a pay rise. The majority of increments should be aboloshied for performance related pay rises.

Welcome to the thread Deputy Varadkar...:D

OMD

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Now despite the fact that points 1 & 2 aren't worth the paper they're wiritten on he failed to even mention the massive sell out on pensions

Just on the pensions issue. The IMF recently said:

The world’s richest economies must urgently work out how to put a lid on spiraling retirement costs to address the “acute” challenge of tackling high public debt, according to the International Monetary Fund (IMF).

They also said:
"The bulk of the required progress will have to reflect reforms of pension and health entitlements, containment of other primary spending, and increased tax revenues -- possibly through the implementation of both tax policy and tax administration measures,"


Be careful of where your deal rejection leads.