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skeptic almost considering going for reading
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09-04-2010 7:34pm#1My girlfriend got a reading off some boyo in meath, Goff or something
Anyway, im fairly skeptical of this sort stuff and would consider my girlfriend a bit gullible so if the guy is a fraud then he would probably have a field day with her
Everything he said was relevant to her life and some of it freakishly relevant BUT while it was hard to dismiss how detailed he was I still kinda thought an expert in cold reading could possibly come up with this stuff
BUT the part that confuses me is he was able to name names, he named one of her sisters and her sisters husband, then another person
He only had her first name,i was initially thinking facebook or bebo etc
He charged 60-70 euro by the way :rolleyes:
Can anyone explain it? do these people do their research!?0
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭
Join Date:Posts: 59144
I've sat in with exes who were into this sort of thing and talk about *yawn*. Most of the time they were telling the "psychic" what to say back.
A few years back, not in Ireland, I had one of the very few truly "What the Fu...":eek::eek: moments in my life. I was sitting having a coffee and a ciggy outside a cafe waiting for a mate. This woman and her granddaughter(I found out later) were having lunch beside me after waht looked like a day of retail therapy. The granddaughter(who was v cute BTW
) excused herself to me and asked in halting english if I didnt mind, but her granny had some advice for me. I thought here we go, scam ahoy, though they were well dressed and looked a lot more financially stable than I did and no money was changing hands
Anyhoo, through the granddaughter this woman in her 60's told me in under a minute about a person in my life and what she thought I should do. This is the name, this is what happened, this is what might be best to do and be aware of something else. She then wished me well and off they went. She was scarily accurate. Now I do mean scarily. Including the name involved she couldnt quite pronounce. She couldnt pronounce it, but did give what she thought was its meaning. Not the name involved but as an example Dierdre. If someone said deedri or something but then added it meant sorrows kinda thing. With this particular name I didnt find out the original meaning until afterwards. I'd say my entire convo to the pair of them was "oh right, sure I'll listen" and "thanks" when they left me gobsmacked.
It did impress me with the lack of any info from me and a name foriegn to her ears, never mind the accuracy of the unusual background in such a short interaction. None of the long winded humming and hawing, I see a man his name begins with T guff. NOthing and I mean nothing from me, bar a look of incredulity. Straight and to the point. I didnt have a mobile at the time so they couldnt have read it when I was in the bog, or any of that. To this day I scratch my head.
That said IMHO self claimed psychics are hokum. They can fulfill a role as erswhile therapists for some, but that in of itself is dangerous. Do I think it possible the human brain can pick up images or feelings from another brain? It's possible. It would be an evolutionary advantage to a social animal and the brain is a very very complex machine. States like distress, anger, love etc could be transmitted by hormonal smell means as an example. Who knows. I have heard of telepathy experiments with native Australians that showed results well above what chance would suggest. Even so I seriously doubt it's accessible by crossing someone's palm with silver.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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drogsnookerclub wrote: »I dont think id record it, i wouldnt be able to hide the fact that something's up to one of these people
Being of a sceptical mindset, going for a 'psychic' reading and then not recording it is like shooting yourself in the foot. I even know 'believers' who bothered to record their readings with various readers.
Sure how the bloody hell is the reader going to know you're recording the reading if you've already pressed 'record' just before walking in the door? Unless they have Superman X-ray vision?
It's a very small, but worthwhile, 'risk' to take. :rolleyes:0 -
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I have done in the past. And up pops information on what school I went to, youth groups I was in, my friend's websites, stuff like that.
I can't find any info about myself under my real name on the net. I've been toying around a lot with ancestry sites lately as well and I can't get any info on there. I've been trying to find out more about my antecedants and what-not out of general interest, and it's been frustrating because I'm expected to have all the info about present and past family members (D.O.B.s, maiden names, and all). I was disappointed because I've often heard people say that they only put in a name, a location and a D.O.B. and that they got all this info.
Anyway, the point is, I can't find anything about myself and my family on the internet from using either my first name and location or my full name and location.I recommend reading badpsychics.com There's an article on there where a man was, like yourself, sceptical that so much information could be found online even though he wasn't on any social networking sites (IIRC the info was things like his brother's nickname, his mother's maiden name). Someone from the debunking site did a bit of a search and in an hour had come up with a staggering amount of info. I'll see if I can dig up the article.
I read a very interesting article about a British journalist's experience with Sally Morgan a while ago.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/sally-morgan-i-am-not-mad-i-am-not-unhingedi-talk-to-dead-people-942336.htmlSally Morgan was born Michelle West, in Fulham. Her father Derek, she says, was extremely violent towards her mother Beryl and to Michelle, who changed her name to Sally before she was in show business. She grew up with a stepfather, Pat Thatcher, and recalls a childhood of quarrelling and stress.
"You didn't mess with him," she says of Thatcher.
Her mother, she remembers, used to strike her with a hairbrush till her scalp bled.
She met her current husband John, who occasionally wanders into the kitchen while we're talking, in 1973. He tells me that he gave up a job "in sales – helping a friend with a greengrocery business" to support his wife's career six years ago. They have two daughters, Rebecca and Fern.
Her first child, Jemma, was born following a brief marriage to a man Sally refers to by the pseudonym of Brian.
She has been estranged both from her mother and Jemma for 12 years, following a remark a family member made about the medium. (She refuses to discuss this, for fear of being sued; her publisher's lawyers cut the allegation out of her book. The most she will say is that there is no suggestion of abuse or other criminality.)
"Do you think your turbulent upbringing encouraged unusual experiences?"
"Definitely. In the house at Waldemar Avenue in Fulham, where I grew up, there was a spirit in the bathroom. It made me do things. Naughty things I can't talk about."
She had her first psychic experience at nine months, and saw her first spirit when she was four. Then Jesus appeared to her on the bedroom ceiling. She left school with no qualifications and took various jobs related to the health service; she worked in the dental surgery for 25 years.
When she was a teenager, a visitation occurred while she was listening to Cliff Richard.
"A voice said: 'Shut that bloody racket up.'" (Definitive proof, some might argue, that our Lord is both vigilant and merciful.)
She had her epiphany at Wimpy in New Malden, Surrey, in the mid-1970s.
"I met a friend there. She said she was getting married. I saw the man's face. Money was falling around him. Now he's a multi-millionaire. The face went, then returned. I realised I could choose to keep these things in my head, or not."
When she began giving psychic readings, she says, at first she didn't charge.
"People would bring me flowers," she recalls. "Maybe a cake."
Things have moved on a bit since then.
"Your website offers phone readings at £39.99 per half-hour. How do you justify that?"
"I have to maintain my integrity, OK?" says Morgan. "But how do you also keep people happy?"
She says that she hasn't inherited her father's temper, but has raised a finger, and looks well able to take care of herself in a debate.
"There are so many people," she explains, "wanting readings." (She's claimed to have 72,000 on her waiting list.)
"If you can read down the phone, why look at pictures?"
"Well, I do like working with a picture, I will be very honest."
"But why charge so..."
"You can't get psychics to work for nothing."
"How do you vet them?"
"I vet half a dozen at a time. I have a good Tarot reader, and a medium, and somebody that specialises in love and relationships."
"Where do they work?"
"It's done through a call centre. The call is transferred to their home."
"How many psychics work those lines?"
"About 30."
"How much of that £39.99 do they keep?"
"They're on a percentage."
"What percentage? Thirty? Fifty?"
"It can vary."
"So out of £40, they'd get what? £15 or £20?"
"Maybe even a little bit more."
"I'm not saying that any psychic who charges is automatically discredited..."
"Yeah, but look at the Vatican. I mean, hold on a minute..."
"Surely you're not comparing yourself to ..."
"No. I am talking about money. Money that goes into religion. Mosques. Churches and, er... Look at the money that goes into them. Because one is spiritual, it doesn't mean that one has to be on the poverty..."
Morgan pauses, possibly remembering the Veuve Clicquot in the driveway. (The champagne was actually left over from her daughter Fern's 30th birthday party.) "I wouldn't be able to do what I do," she continues, "unless I could pay my bills."
I find myself wondering how long Morgan's been talking this way; perhaps since "one" met the Princess of Wales.
"It invalidates nothing if you charge a fee. It might do if you were exploiting people."
"I don't exploit anyone. If you find anyone that says I have, I want to have a conversation with that person. These people on these websites that attack me, they hide behind false names. I'm Sally Morgan. That is my name. I don't hide anything."
"There are some serious accusations on, say, badpsychics.com."
"I don't read them. What's the name of that website again?"
She writes it down.
"They mention a reading you did in August 2007, with Brian Dowling, who won Big Brother. I've seen that footage. Before you meet him, you're asked, on camera, if you know him. You say: 'I know of him.' But hadn't you ' already given him a reading, in February 2005? One that was mentioned on your website? One that had been published by the News Of The World?"
"Yes. Well... I don't want this in the newspaper, OK?"
"It's quite an important allegation; I think you should respond to it."
"I did it because the director told me to."
"Badpsychics also carried a review of a show you did in Grimsby Auditorium in May, where the contributor alleges that a woman mentioned having a relative crushed by a lorry. They say you gave the name 'Caroline'. And that, when the person explained that 'Caroline' meant nothing, you said that perhaps those three syllables meant that the victim had been: 'carried by the lorry'."
Morgan doesn't recall this.
"We have that on film. We film every show. In Grimsby we have a nut-nut that writes letters.
Badpsychics," a site she now sounds a little more familiar with, "have got a bigger problem than me."
"Your critics focus on the fact that you used to advertise, on your website, that you had been called in to help police..."
"I have helped them; that's true."
"So why has that statement disappeared from your site?"
"I changed website people. It wasn't done deliberately."
"You claimed that you 'pinpointed' the body of Helen McCourt. (A 22 year-old from Billinge, near St Helens, murdered by a publican in 1988.)"
"Yes."
"Did the police call you in?"
"I have letters from Merseyside Police."
(She produces a grateful letter from the chief constable.)
"Did the CID approach you?"
"The mother did."
"But the body is still missing, isn't it?"
"Yes. The body is somewhere where the police don't have the money to dig."
"So you know where it is?"
"I know. It's on National Trust Property."
I saw her on the TV show 'Celebrity Juice' recently. The host, Keith Lemon (AKA Leigh Francis) completely ripped the piss out of her. It was hilarious, but Morgan seemed to take it all in her stride. When Lemon tried on her glasses and shrieked and pointed, "Ghost! I see a ghost! There's a ghost! There's another one!", it was brilliant.And your shock would have been all she needed to tell her that she was on to a winner. She was probably delighted to have hit the nail on the head first try. Your stunned expression was a big sign that read "You've got it right; keep going".
From my own experience, I remember when I saw Peter Matthew that I probably did have a highly evident expression of surprise on my face when he came out with some on-target names and other info. I couldn't help it. But he didn't spit out a few random names and info before he said the what-turned-out-to-be-accurate stuff.
I've listened back to the reading a half a dozen times since and he wasn't doing any of that manipulative guessing craic. I know it when I come across it though, so I know what you mean alright. It tends to be really obvious when they do that, IMO. There's nothing subtle about it, unless you happen to be stoned at the time.[...] If I said that a young man that you know was under the weather at the moment you'd probably be able to think of someone.
Living 'nearby', is subjective because, well, what do you class as 'nearby'? Within a street or two is definitely nearby, yeah? But so is anywhere within walking distance, or maybe anywhere that's less that 30 minutes in a car, depending on your viewpoint.
And as for 'upheaval'. As I said already 'upheaval' could mean illness, moving house, death, marriage, holiday, or redecorating. It's a catch-all word that the 'psychic' uses because it allows you to define the meaning yourself.
My point is that Blonde, young, nearby, and upheaval are much too vague to have any confidence in. If this woman was actually able to somehow 'know' what was going on why wouldn't she say "So, Jane's moving house then."?
I agree that the above details - 'upheaval', 'living nearby' - are vague, so they should be overlooked as 'hits' really.You should. You don't have to be online to show up in searches. As I said earlier you can show up on school, youth group and workplace websites. You can be found in the online phone book and the electoral register. They can find out about you from your friends and family's websites and Facebook accounts.
I just tried looking myself up on my former schools and university websites and I couldn't get anything. I'd say you'd have to just ring or email them with your full name, D.O.B., and the years inclusive that you attended them. I saw they only list alumni who are 'of note' on the website. In fairness, the list of them is pretty short. :rolleyes:
When I typed my full name and county into http://www.goldenpages.ie, it told me "No Results Found". When I tried the same on
http://www.118.ie, it said, "Invalid person search. Please search again."
I'm not in the electoral register because (shame on me), I've never bothered to register myself to vote. I'm pretty ignorant of voting for various party candidates.
My Facebook and Bebo profiles are set to private. You have to add me as a friend first to get hold of any info about me. I'm vigilant about whom I befriend on there. Even so, there's nothing very personal written on my profiles. Siblings of mine who are on FB and Bebo as well go under their full names, but they're addressed and known by shortened names/nicknames only by others in the family. Yer man Peter Matthew got the alternative name of one of my siblings on the first go before. To his credit, he hadn't thrown any other similar-sounding names at me to try to get the eventually-accurate one.
Nobody in my immediate family has a website. A few of my friends have websites alright, but that's only for work purposes.0 -
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I've sat in with exes who were into this sort of thing and talk about *yawn*. Most of the time they were telling the "psychic" what to say back.
A few years back, not in Ireland, I had one of the very few truly "What the Fu...":eek::eek: moments in my life. I was sitting having a coffee and a ciggy outside a cafe waiting for a mate. This woman and her granddaughter(I found out later) were having lunch beside me after waht looked like a day of retail therapy. The granddaughter(who was v cute BTW) excused herself to me and asked in halting english if I didnt mind, but her granny had some advice for me. I thought here we go, scam ahoy, though they were well dressed and looked a lot more financially stable than I did and no money was changing hands
Anyhoo, through the granddaughter this woman in her 60's told me in under a minute about a person in my life and what she thought I should do. This is the name, this is what happened, this is what might be best to do and be aware of something else. She then wished me well and off they went. She was scarily accurate. Now I do mean scarily. Including the name involved she couldnt quite pronounce. She couldnt pronounce it, but did give what she thought was its meaning. Not the name involved but as an example Dierdre. If someone said deedri or something but then added it meant sorrows kinda thing. With this particular name I didnt find out the original meaning until afterwards. I'd say my entire convo to the pair of them was "oh right, sure I'll listen" and "thanks" when they left me gobsmacked.
It did impress me with the lack of any info from me and a name foriegn to her ears, never mind the accuracy of the unusual background in such a short interaction. None of the long winded humming and hawing, I see a man his name begins with T guff. NOthing and I mean nothing from me, bar a look of incredulity. Straight and to the point. I didnt have a mobile at the time so they couldnt have read it when I was in the bog, or any of that. To this day I scratch my head.
That said IMHO self claimed psychics are hokum. They can fulfill a role as erswhile therapists for some, but that in of itself is dangerous. Do I think it possible the human brain can pick up images or feelings from another brain? It's possible. It would be an evolutionary advantage to a social animal and the brain is a very very complex machine. States like distress, anger, love etc could be transmitted by hormonal smell means as an example. Who knows. I have heard of telepathy experiments with native Australians that showed results well above what chance would suggest. Even so I seriously doubt it's accessible by crossing someone's palm with silver.
If it happens again ask for next weeks Lotto numbers :pac:0 -
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bog master wrote: »The skeptics seem to give a huge amount of skills ie cold/hot reading to the supposed psychics, being able to read body language instantly, gauging reactions, and coming back with rapid fire responses. I am sure some have this ability and trait, but a lot of so called psychics out there, are they all that skilled?
No they're not all that skilled, alot are though. Are all psychics successful? No, even from looking at the Paranormal forum you can see that there's a spectrum of them, sometimes they get it quite wrong. So that eliminates some. How many people who visit psychics are credulous buffoons? You don't need to be good to trick these people. So that's some more. How many people who visit psychics are skeptical and intelligent, but just not familiar with cold reading, etc., so are still likely to fall victim to these tactics? Quite a few I'm sure.
So you're left with a small group that are very skillful and very good, and they can trick even skeptics like you
Not really that far-fetched!bog master wrote: »Secondly, as per my original post and subsequent research, I have accepted that my first reading was vague and very little information gleaned other than than cold reading/Fourier etc. But it seems the skeptics have an solution or method or explanation for every alleged fact the psychic seems to get right, even down to how they sometimes get lucky! And then we have the semantics of word definitions, how close is nearby, friends or acquaintances, what is upheaval?
Yeah there's explanations, that's because everyone here knows about the tactics they use!
As for semantics, I think it's pretty relevant because it's a rather important part of psychic tactics -- be vague and non-specific and let the person connect the dots themselves.0 -
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It is illegal to publish a recording without consent. Ask any journalist.
Do you know what laws cover this, I don't know any journalists
I'm doubtful about it to be honest given that there are loads of TV shows based on secretly recording people and then publishing the recordings. Think prime time undercover or BBC Rogue Traders - do you think these guys give their consent?0 -
Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59144
Oh that was exactly what I was thinking afterwards WickersIf it happens again ask for next weeks Lotto numbers :pac:. Well they did look wealthy and had lots of shopping bags so........ I have to admit though what she told me and how she told me defo made me wonder. Like I said unusual foreign(to her) name, with an unusual background and it did turn out she was bang on the money about a third party involved too. A third party you wouldnt link into the story. Plus short sharp "name, situation what to look out for" no questions asked of me, in a foreign language and with no money asked for.
Now I can read people very well. Its a skill like any other. As a social animal we have to know to some degree how to read others in social situations. Just as an ability like running helped us catch or run away from animals. And like running some are just better at it. I was always pretty good at it even as a kid and I did practice it later on. Now Ive had hippie type exes claim that even though a sceptic I was "psychic". Im as psychic as a housebrick, I just pick up unconscious nuances and some obvious ones too and wrap em up and get a result, which most of the time comes across and is pretty accurate. A client of mine is a shrink and she's been surprised at how fast I can make an accurate enough assessment of someone and she's waaaayyy smarter than me and has been practicing for 20+ years.
Another reason is that IMHO and IME 90% of people will act 90% true to form 90% of the time. We're pretty predictable though people like to think they're not. So if say a 30 year old woman* came to me as a psychic, just based on that description alone I can assume that shes been in love, she's had her heart broken, she's been betrayed, she's lost someone close to her to death and that she's likely to be coming to me in my role as a psychic to know mostly about relationships and family, probably a recent event if Ive not seen her before. If I look at her I can find out even more. How's she's dressed, how she sits, how she holds herself, has she any obvious marks, tattoos scars etc, does she get her hair done regularly, how much makeup she wears etc. All this before she even opens her mouth. Then when she speaks I can peg more things on her. The questions she asks will lead me down all sorts of different avenues. Cold reading basically.
Yes I would agree except that the prize in question has so many conditions attached that it would be almost impossible to win it. It has so much wriggle room and so many outs the money is safe. Its designed for failure.Really? You don't think that the fact that a sizeable prize has gone uncollected for decades says a lot about the non-existence of supernatural abilities? We can talk for pages and pages, as we already have, about the Fourer effect, confirmation bias, cold and hot reading, and the whole shebang without getting through to anyone; the fact remains that anyone who can prove their ability gets a prize large enough to make me wish I were psychic, and yet it's still sitting in a bank vault.
*EDIT* This http://www.dailygrail.com/features/the-myth-of-james-randis-million-dollar-challenge explains it better.
* I say woman BTW because in general a larger proportion of women believe in psychics and horoscopes, fate, other levels etc than men(inc some of the most intelligent people Ive ever known). I knew a woman who did this psychic readings thing for a living and she told me that men did come to her but were rarer and all her psychic buddies, male and female, said the same. Personally I think its because many women may approach a problem differently to many men. There is a more multilayered approach. You hear more women sayig they rely on their "gut" on top of their "logic". It's a more nebulous thing. Its actually another good way to approach life and Ive tried to bring it to my own thinking.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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