Why did God make us so that we are unconscious for a third of our lives?

This thought has always bothered me.. If I created the perfect world and created man, it would never strike me as a good idea to make that person unconscious for a third of their lives. The idea wouldn't even come into my head.

It's just something that makes no sense to me.. It would be like making a computer that has to sleep for 8 hours a day. It's just not as good as a computer than can run 24 hours a day. This is the guy who created the sun and the stars, the mountains and lakes and everything in between. He surely could have let us be awake all the time.

Thoughts?

Fanny Cradock

God didn't create the world perfect - I would have thought all the lies and wars and tsunamis would have been evidence of that. In Genesis the word good is used to describe creation, this does not denote perfection. We sleep because of the physical limitations of our bodies and minds. I enjoy sleep. I don't see a problem with it.

cypharius

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

God didn't create the world perfect - I would have thought all the lies and wars and tsunamis would have been evidence of that. In Genesis the word good is used to describe creation, this does not denote perfection. We sleep because of the physical limitations of our bodies and minds. I enjoy sleep. I don't see a problem with it.

Then why didn't "God" just do a little jig and make the world perfect again? If he can't, then he isn't all powerfull and therefore not worthy of worship.

If he just doesn't(But can) then he's just an asshole, and still not worthy of worship.

If it's because he wants to "Test" us, then that's a load of bull. What's the test? It's like rolling a dice, there's so many religions to follow, all pretty much the same, how is that a fair test? And why bother testing us anyway?

Fanny Cradock

cypharius wrote: »

Then why didn't "God" just do a little jig and make the world perfect again? If he can't, then he isn't all powerfull and therefore not worthy of worship.

If he just doesn't(But can) then he's just an asshole, and still not worthy of worship.

If it's because he wants to "Test" us, then that's a load of bull. What's the test? It's like rolling a dice, there's so many religions to follow, all pretty much the same, how is that a fair test? And why bother testing us anyway?

Are you actually interested in hearing a response?

cypharius

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Are you actually interested in hearing a response?

Yes, quite interested. The only responses to the epicurious riddle I've ever heard are super-fundies saying "God is something more".

Fanny Cradock

Then I would point you to meaning of the resurrection.

cypharius

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Then I would point you to meaning of the resurrection.

That is the single worst response ever.

Black Swan

Deleted User wrote: »

This thought has always bothered me.. If I created the perfect world and created man, it would never strike me as a good idea to make that person unconscious for a third of their lives.

Thoughts?

Who is to say that sleep time is not perfection? Don't you just love to sleep-in on a weekend morning? I dream a lot too, and some of them can be very entertaining indeed! And when you are very close to someone, where do you invite them to join you? And afterwords you share that sleep with them, which can be bonding?

Relaxing sleep can be a form of meditation, as well as a time to consolidate things learned while awake. Highly inventive Ben Franklin used to keep a pen and pad of paper by his bedside to capture ideas that emerged from a sleeping state.

To the contrary, if there be a Creator, and they failed to include sleep in our life cycle, I would think that they goofed when making us, leaving out a vital part. Certainly beats being a fictional "Twilight New Moon" vampire that can never enjoy or benefit from sleep!

PDN

The subject of this thread is why God created sleep, so anyone overly impressed by Epicurus' simplistic reasoning can take their debate on theodicy elsewhere.

Personally I enjoy the occasional nap - and I'm very grateful that God created us with the capacity, and need, for sleep.

Now some of you need to go to bed!

Thomas828

On some other thread - I forget which one - Someone said "Sleep is a tool of the Devil, made to keep us from living life to the full." I replied, "Sleep is a tool of God, made to keep us from falling into sin."

Sancte Raphael

Sleep is like a dress rehearsal for that final sleep, death. We rise again in the morning (hopefully) and so we hope to rise again in Christ after our death to face that eternal day with the Lord in the Beatific Vision. Which reminds me, tomorrow I must go to Confession in preparation for Divine Mercy Sunday!

bryaner

Ehh because god didn't make us!

Soul Winner

Deleted User wrote: »

This thought has always bothered me.. If I created the perfect world and created man, it would never strike me as a good idea to make that person unconscious for a third of their lives. The idea wouldn't even come into my head.

Are we to assume that just because you wouldn't have done it this way that it shouldn't have been done this way?

Deleted User wrote: »

It's just something that makes no sense to me..

Do you not enjoy sleep or something?

Deleted User wrote: »

It would be like making a computer that has to sleep for 8 hours a day.

I leave my PC on all day but I've set to go into standby or sleep mode after 1 hour of non use. That conserves energy and is good for the planet and my wallet. Still think sleep is a bad idea?

Deleted User wrote: »

This is the guy who created the sun and the stars, the mountains and lakes and everything in between. He surely could have let us be awake all the time.

You start out with the assumption that creating sleep is somehow some kind of weakness. From whence comes that assumption of yours? And why should be go along with it?

Deleted User wrote: »

Thoughts?

You just got them.

krudler

If you left your computer on 24 hours a day it wouldnt last long, same as the human body. Our mind and body need rest, its simple biology. Sleep is where the body repairs itself. I wouldnt want to be awake 24 hours a day, I love my bed

Fanny Cradock

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I enjoy sleep. I don't see a problem with it.

That's because we live in an easy world now.. We know we're not going to get attacked or anything while asleep.

Thomas828 wrote: »

On some other thread - I forget which one - Someone said "Sleep is a tool of the Devil, made to keep us from living life to the full." I replied, "Sleep is a tool of God, made to keep us from falling into sin."

So falling into sin is how to live life to the full? Sounds about right to me. Religion has only ever restricted life and science.

bryaner wrote: »

Ehh because god didn't make us!

I know I know. I just wandered in here seeing what would happen.

Soul Winner wrote: »

Are we to assume that just because you wouldn't have done it this way that it shouldn't have been done this way?

Do you not enjoy sleep or something?

I leave my PC on all day but I've set to go into standby or sleep mode after 1 hour of non use. That conserves energy and is good for the planet and my wallet. Still think sleep is a bad idea?

You start out with the assumption that creating sleep is somehow some kind of weakness. From whence comes that assumption of yours? And why should be go along with it?

You just got them.

Pro-tip.. Quoting every line of a persons post and trying to pick it apart makes your argument weak and ineffective. It's stupid to try insinuate that every word a person said is wrong.. Pick a key point or two and counter them because to be honest, I didn't even read your post properly. I just jumped to the conclusion that it was more than likely going to be complete tripe.

Donkey Oaty

Deleted User wrote: »

Why did God make us so that we are unconscious for a third of our lives?

So that those who believe in Him can dream on.

Zombrex

Deleted User wrote: »

This thought has always bothered me.. If I created the perfect world and created man, it would never strike me as a good idea to make that person unconscious for a third of their lives. The idea wouldn't even come into my head.

It's just something that makes no sense to me.. It would be like making a computer that has to sleep for 8 hours a day. It's just not as good as a computer than can run 24 hours a day. This is the guy who created the sun and the stars, the mountains and lakes and everything in between. He surely could have let us be awake all the time.

Thoughts?

It depends on whether you are a Creationist or not doesn't it?

Some animals sleep because they have evolved to. We actually do quite a bit of interesting things when we are asleep, such as process the information we obtained that day and run simulations around it as to how we would act in certain situations (aka dreaming)

If you are a Christian who accepts evolution, as most are, then we are the result of evolution just like every other animal on the planet and thus we sleep because of the survival benefit it gave us and our ancestor species.

If you are a Creationist it is a some what different answer, but creationists don't really have an answer for why we do anything (eat, sleep, poop) so their answer is even simplier, because God wants us that way.

To be honest, I don't understand how it's possible to believe in Jesus but not believe in Creationism. Picking and choosing bits of the bible to believe is a complete cop out.

Zombrex

Deleted User wrote: »

To be honest, I don't understand how it's possible to believe in Jesus but not believe in Creationism. Picking and choosing bits of the bible to believe is a complete cop out.

Lucky for you there is a massive thread just over there for that discussion :pac:

As for this discussion rest assured that people do believe in Jesus and accept the standard scientific history of the world, including evolution of humans from earlier forms.

potsy86

to be honest would you actually want to be awake 24hrs a day you would go insane every one needs rest to recharge i love my sleep i wouldn change it for anything

PDN

Deleted User wrote: »

To be honest, I don't understand how it's possible to believe in Jesus but not believe in Creationism. Picking and choosing bits of the bible to believe is a complete cop out.

That is off-topic here, so I suggest you either take it to the Creationism thread, or talk to a few Christians and find out what they actually believe and why it isn't a cop out.

Zombrex

potsy86 wrote: »

to be honest would you actually want to be awake 24hrs a day you would go insane every one needs rest to recharge i love my sleep i wouldn change it for anything

That is some what circular. We need to rest and recharge because we have evolved to sleep. Some animals never sleep

PDN

PDN wrote: »

That is off-topic here, so I suggest you either take it to the Creationism thread, or talk to a few Christians and find out what they actually believe and why it isn't a cop out.

My thread, I'll go off topic if I like.. Might read up on it and see how the concept of believing both can actually work.

Zombrex

Deleted User wrote: »

My thread, I'll do whatever I like.

Oh this isn't going to end well ... :pac:

gbee

Deleted User wrote: »

This thought has always bothered me.. If I created the perfect world and created man, it would never strike me as a good idea to make that person unconscious for a third of their lives. Thoughts?

It's evolution. I lean towards the Buddhists who believe in reincarnation, but I believe it's a journey that we've all taken to this level.

That is we started out low life forms and ascend to the next level when ready, that may mean staying in a lower life form for several lifetimes and some may never make the jumps.

I do not believe we come back as lower life forms, I believe we've already been there, at some time we are ready for the awakening and we take that jump ~

Some theorists who believe in this scenario use it to show that we may be in Hell or Purgatory on this Earth as, as MAN, we have reached the top of the evolution tree but are still so far from ascendency.

I don't think GOD has anything to do with it, it's another mechanism, we don't really know about it, but I feel it exists despite religious interpretations of this state ~ ie like being a good boy, saying your prayer and going to Heaven ~ you'll achieve awakening, when you are ready to, and a lifetime or two of prayers and devotion is not going to assist or change that.

Fanny Cradock

Deleted User wrote: »

My thread, I'll go off topic if I like.. Might read up on it and see how the concept of believing both can actually work.

You have made nearly 4,000 posts and you still don't understand the basic operations of Boards! Take a deep breath and consider that wont be best for you to continue down this route. If you want to read up on the matter further might I suggest visiting here (audio links here) or you can read up on the Wiki article on theistic evolution.

vodafoneproblem

I like to think it's to give us a daily break from the trials and tribulations of life. Rich or poor, we all get to sleep, and most enjoy it. Or what Soul Winner said about it being a reminder of our mortality.

Deleted User wrote: »

Religion has only ever restricted life and science.

...

That's a shockingly ignorant statement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_thinkers_in_science

Not to mention major contributions to education, healthcare, morals, law, art, architecture and many other areas.

vodafoneproblem

vodafoneproblem wrote: »

...

That's a shockingly ignorant statement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_thinkers_in_science

Not to mention major contributions to education, healthcare, morals, law, art, architecture and many other areas.

Galileo?

Fanny Cradock

See Conflict Thesis for a little more on this. I really must check out some of Ronald Numbers work on this area (this talk was promising).

Fanny Cradock

Deleted User wrote: »

Galileo?

Listen to the talk.

Fanny Cradock

Deleted User wrote: »

Galileo?

Listen to the talk or perhaps read this.

Stercus Accidit

If life is just a test to get into heaven, why make life so imperfect?

You could be born with your heart outside your chest, and die within a week.

You could be born in Africa, and live a life of poverty and pain and die of curable disease.

You could be born into a well to do rich family in the U.S. and never need to steal, or kill to survive.


The op has put forth a valid point, why do we sleep? In this test to get into heaven, why design us like that?

If our lord is omnipotent, why design us so we follow rules of biology and physics in a seemingly not designed world at all?


The only answer is 'faith', but I could choose to have faith in anything, I could have faith that when I die I will meet thor, I could have faith that I will die and be resurrected, I could have faith that my incredible luck at being born in a free, western country where I won't die before I'm 30 is god's plan.
Thank god I wasn't born deformed, or brain dead, or in a fascist state, or with aids and malaria, I guess my test is whether or not I pay the tv licence, rather than steal money to afford medicine, or kill to protect my family.

Sleep is part of an evolved system of bodily regeneration, it works because it has evolved to, because we are animals like any other.

To say any different is just faith, which is nothing really.

Fanny Cradock

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

If life is just a test to get into heaven, why make life so imperfect?

Perhaps I missed something, but has any Christian here claimed that life is a test Such an assertion would buck the orthodox (small "o") belief of Christianity.

Stercus Accidit

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Perhaps I missed something, but has any Christian here claimed that life is a test Such an assertion would buck the orthodox (small "o") belief of Christianity.

Isn't the idea of christianity to live a good life, and be either rewarded with heaven or punished with hell, for eternity.

With eternal damnation on the cards, you would be mad not to concentrate on getting into heaven.

Fanny Cradock

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Isn't the idea of christianity to live a good life, and be either rewarded with heaven or punished with hell, for eternity.

With eternal damnation on the cards, you would be mad not to concentrate on getting into heaven.

No. I don't believe that is correct. While some might wish to phrase it in a different way, I believe that Christianity is about entering into a relationship with Christ. If God is sinless then it is only through Christ ant we can have a relationship with him. What you seem to be suggesting is analogous to the claim that one enters into a marriage for the sex (or whatever) rather than because of something more foundational - love.

Stercus Accidit

Do you believe that a life lived in accordance with the rules of christianity will be rewarded with eternal happiness and life?

Do you believe a life of sin and not living by those rules will result in hell?

Do you believe in heaven, and hell?

Splendour

Deleted User wrote: »

This thought has always bothered me.. If I created the perfect world and created man, it would never strike me as a good idea to make that person unconscious for a third of their lives. The idea wouldn't even come into my head.

It's just something that makes no sense to me.. It would be like making a computer that has to sleep for 8 hours a day. It's just not as good as a computer than can run 24 hours a day. This is the guy who created the sun and the stars, the mountains and lakes and everything in between. He surely could have let us be awake all the time.

Thoughts?

Interesting quuestion. I believe God did create a perfect world and maybe not having to sleep was part of that world-until the fall that is.

On a lighter note, anyone who has kids will count sleep as a blessing, can you imagine what it would be like if the little critters didn't need to sleep :eek:

Fanny Cradock

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Do you believe that a life lived in accordance with the rules of christianity will be rewarded with eternal happiness and life?

No. I believe that the Pharisees kept the Laws of Moses quite well. Yet Jesus spent a large amount of time admonishing them. For example (as recently mentioned by Splendour):

Matthew 23: 27 - 28

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Do you believe a life of sin and not living by those rules will result in hell?

I believe that we are all sinners - Christian or not - and therefore we are worthy of being eternally separated from God (Hell, if you will). I don't believe that a prescriptive adherence to the laws will wash away any sins because we remain fundamentally flawed and selfish beings. However, this is where Jesus, the cross and his resurrection become ever so important.

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Do you believe in heaven, and hell?

Yes, but I also believe that Heaven is only part of the story. Ultimately, I believe in a bodily existence in what the bible calls "a new heavens and a new earth". In other words, creation remade minus the bad bits (sin).

Fanny Cradock

Splendour wrote: »

Interesting quuestion. I believe God did create a perfect world and maybe not having to sleep was part of that world-until the fall that is.

I would definitely have to disagree with you here, Splendour. Genesis is all about how good creation was, not how perfect it was. (I don't actually want to get into the wider implications of this here, tbh.) In short, creation (fallen or otherwise) was always one stage in a greater project. You (and Stercus Accidit) might enjoy reading Surprised by Hope by N.T Wright. This audio link (left click to stream, right click and "save as" to download) might give a flavour of what he is talking about. Wonderful stuff!

Stercus Accidit

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Yes, but I also believe that Heaven is only part of the story. Ultimately, I believe in a bodily existence in what the bible calls "a new heavens and a new earth". In other words, creation remade minus the bad bits (sin).

Then there is a good outcome from life, a reward, and there is also a bad outcome, a punishment? The criteria for which are irrelevant, what matters is that there are criteria and a resultant reward or punishment, am I closer to the mark here?

philologos

These criteria are actually one of the most important aspects about Christianity. We don't earn salvation, but rather receive it from the free grace of Christ having died for us on the Cross.

Sincere repentance, an acceptance that you were wrong, and a true will to accept Christ's offer of forgiveness, and follow God is what is needed.

Fanny Cradock

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Then there is a good outcome from life, a reward, and there is also a bad outcome, a punishment? The criteria for which are irrelevant, what matters is that there are criteria and a resultant reward or punishment, am I closer to the mark here?

(I'm not sure I fully understand your post, but let me attempt an answer anyway.)

Are you any closer to the mark? Yes and no. I think that it is a matter of analysis of a persons fundamental desire.

It seems to me that you are stuck on an "either/ or" understanding of Christianity. Either you do this and you go to Heaven or you don't and you go to Hell. Going back to the marriage analogy. What I think you are saying above is like the following: you get married for the rewards (lets say sex and back rubs) and if you don't get married (or enter into any form of romantic relationship) the negative outcome is loneliness. I would think that this is a rather linear picture of what relationships are all about. Love, even the ideal of love, is far richer and deeper.

I'm not claiming that no one has ever had blindly obvious reasons of self-interest (going to Heaven/ avoiding Hell) for wanting to become a Christian (and one would have to wonder if God looks unfavourably at such reasoning) or that self-interest doesn't play a role in the best of Christians lives (if you could experience eternal joy then why not seek it). However, the difference between the two is is that the latter enters into a relationship with Jesus (and you must understand that relationship is the correct word to use because Christians believe in a personal and present God) out of love, not because of some cost/ benefit analysis. Does that make a bit more sense?

Stercus Accidit

If there is a reward, or a punishment, based on what we do in this life, then this life is a test, by any other name.

That is why I do not reconcile the incredibly unfair nature of this life with the idea that it is designed by an omnipotent god, to decide who will or will not get into heaven.

The requirement for sleep is more in line with a natural animal and its evolved characteristics, than a requirement of a soul seeking a relationship with christ in a finite time frame, for an infinite judgement of worth.

Fanny Cradock

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

If there is a reward, or a punishment, based on what we do in this life, then this life is a test, by any other name.

OK, clearly we have reached some sort of impasse because, frankly, what you say don't makes sense to me. Either you have discovered some hitherto unknown meaning in the bible that knocks orthodoxy flat on its feet, or you are going against centuries of belief. Even the disagreement between salvation through faith or works doesn't suggest that this life is a test. Read the bible - it doesn't matter if you think it is a load of rubbish - because it is quite clear that the fall (sin) was instigated by man and not a rather cruel test by God. Perhaps you can better explain your position to me? What you seem to suggest is akin to the following


or here for the musical version.

I firmly believe that God doesn't weigh up your deeds to determine if you are a good egg or a bad one.

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

That is why I do not reconcile the incredibly unfair nature of this life with the idea that it is designed by an omnipotent god, to decide who will or will not get into heaven.

God doesn't decide, we do. Simply put, either you accept the gift of salvation or you reject it.

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

The requirement for sleep is more in line with a natural animal and its evolved characteristics, than a requirement of a soul seeking a relationship with christ in a finite time frame, for an infinite judgement of worth.

I agree that we evolved the requirement for sleep. Perhaps it is unavoidable with brains like ours. So what is the problem?

PDN

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Do you believe that a life lived in accordance with the rules of christianity will be rewarded with eternal happiness and life?

Do you believe a life of sin and not living by those rules will result in hell?

Do you believe in heaven, and hell?

Look, you evidently haven't got much of a clue about what Christians actually believe, so here's a couple of suggestions:

a) Drop the attitude, ask a few genuine questions, and maybe you'll learn something.

b) Go away and read a book or two about Christianity - then come back when you know what you're talking about.

PDN

Deleted User wrote: »

Galileo?

Yes, Galileo. That intensely religious guy whose religious beliefs convinced him that there was an order to the universe, built upon the work of a Polish clergyman called Copernicus, and then had his books published in the Netherlands because of the freedom of thought promoted by the Protestant reformation.

Now, what was your point about Galileo?

That he was arrested for heresy.

PDN

Deleted User wrote: »

That he was arrested for heresy.

Indeed he was. And your point is?

number10a

Ok, I sit on the fence about the whole God thing. But if I do ever get to meet Him/Her/It/Them, sleep will be quite near the top of the list of things I want to say thanks for!!

PDN

PDN wrote: »

Indeed he was. And your point is?

How many other people would have kept their research to themselves for fear of the church and the law..
I don't know enough about this to have a full blown argument about it, I started a thread about sleep and mentioned science briefly. I'm not going to pretend to know it all.

PDN

Deleted User wrote: »

How many other people would have kept their research to themselves for fear of the church and the law..
I don't know enough about this to have a full blown argument about it, I started a thread about sleep and mentioned science briefly. I'm not going to pretend to know it all.

The only people doing science were the Church. They set up the Universities, funded much of the research through their patronage etc.

Unfortunately they had an exaggerated respect for the ancient Greeks, particularly Aristotle. And that was Galileo's problem - that he contradicted Aristotle. The Church was the Scientific establishment of the day (more by default than anything since no-one else was actually interested in science) and they defended the scientific orthodoxy of the day against Galileo's theories.

So Galileo does not, except in the more absurd atheist rewritings of history, serve an example of religion hindering science. He demonstrates that the Church, while pursuing science, made plenty of mistakes and did some stupid things in the process.

Of course if the Church had been guided by the Bible rather than Aristotle then they would have realised there was no problem with Galileo's teachings.