Make it private and save the state some money...

Tim Robbins

Ok, the purpose of this thread is state which part of the public service could be sold off and run by a private company.

1) Passport office.
2) HSE Wedding Ceremonisers. They won't work Saturday so everyone going to a state wedding has to take a day off work because one person won't work on a Saturday.
3) RTE 2. See no reason why we need this station.
4) 2FM same as above.
5) Add your's here...

PeakOutput

the entire administration of the public service could in theory be privatised and have only the front line staff in direct employ of the state on higher wages due to all the money saved from the worthless admin

ardmacha

2) HSE Wedding Ceremonisers. They won't work Saturday so everyone going to a state wedding has to take a day off work because one person won't work on a Saturday.

there are a number of non government organisations that will marry you, open for business on Saturdays. Only the odd get married by the HSE.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Nitochris

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Ok, the purpose of this thread is state which part of the public service could be sold off and run by a private company.

...
3) RTE 2. See no reason why we need this station.
4) 2FM same as above.

At the time the rationale was to provide the consumer with home grown choice, RTE 2 for example, was founded in 1978 with limited competition.

These days with RTE's pursuit of advertising revenue, capped by Ray Burke to assist the private sector (Century), it would be difficult to get them to drop the station which they profit on. In fact the loss of RTE 2 may make them even more reliant on the government support and less independent, which would erode the public service ethos of RTE.

NUIG_FiannaFail

Anglo Irish Bank

#15

Education perhaps.

A host of schools run on different educational philosophies would offer tremendous choice to teachers, parents and students.

Good teachers would be rewarded, bad ones wouldn't.

Voucher system to help poor families.

I have no idea how practical it is, but it is certainly worth considering.

ntlbell

#15 wrote: »

Good teachers would be rewarded, bad ones wouldn't.

This is an extremley hard thing to measure.

Once you bring in a "bonus" scheme for good teaching, you will find teaching methods change to concentrating on passing exams etc so the teacher can get their bonus.

I don't know of anywhere that does this successfully, i'd be interested in knowing if any country does and how they do it.

Wishbone Ash

Tim Robbins wrote: »

so everyone going to a state wedding has to take a day off work

The old private sector mindset that everyone has to take a day off work to attend something between Monday and Friday!

What about the hundreds of thousands of us who are regulary off between Monday and Friday because we are working at night, Sundays, Bank Holidays, Christmas Day etc. when most of the private sector are tucked up in bed.

seamus

ntlbell wrote: »

This is an extremley hard thing to measure.

Once you bring in a "bonus" scheme for good teaching, you will find teaching methods change to concentrating on passing exams etc so the teacher can get their bonus.

Afaik, they have exactly this kind of problem in many parts of the States, where state funding is provided to those schools which achieve the best grades. This creates a downward spiral where more successful schools cherry-pick their teachers and students, leaving poorer schools with the poorer students and teachers and causing them to lose out on the funding that they need even more than the good schools do.

I think what #15 means is that if the schools aren't operating on a public basis, then bad teachers won't keep their jobs. Unfortunately though, I don't think that's the truth and bad teachers will congregate in troubled schools who can't get anyone else to teach there.

Unlike a proper private sector company, it's not really OK to let a poorly-run school go to the wall; the demand will still be there, the "customers" will lose out.

E.T.

ntlbell wrote: »

This is an extremley hard thing to measure.

Once you bring in a "bonus" scheme for good teaching, you will find teaching methods change to concentrating on passing exams etc so the teacher can get their bonus.

I don't know of anywhere that does this successfully, i'd be interested in knowing if any country does and how they do it.

Completely agree. A teacher in inner-city Dublin might only have half the class size of a teacher in rural Galway but have way more social problems. You can't compare results when there are so many variables involved.

silverharp

I'd start with the motorways, the airports, prisons, water supplies, ESB, RTE and An Post. Later on I'd sell the rights to all public roads to be maintained privately by residents or companies. I'd sell Bord Failte to the tourist industry, Fas to IBEC, Bord Bia to the farmers and BIM to the fishing industry. Not an inclusive list, I'm sure I missed a few.

ntlbell

E.T. wrote: »

Completely agree. A teacher in inner-city Dublin might only have half the class size of a teacher in rural Galway but have way more social problems. You can't compare results when there are so many variables involved.

A sweeping generalisation about anti social inner city Dublin kids.

:eek:

Are you really a teacher?

#15

ntlbell wrote: »

This is an extremley hard thing to measure.

Once you bring in a "bonus" scheme for good teaching, you will find teaching methods change to concentrating on passing exams etc so the teacher can get their bonus.

I don't know of anywhere that does this successfully, i'd be interested in knowing if any country does and how they do it.

E.T. wrote: »

Completely agree. A teacher in inner-city Dublin might only have half the class size of a teacher in rural Galway but have way more social problems. You can't compare results when there are so many variables involved.

I wasn't talking about results at all.

Seamus clarified what I meant.

I think what #15 means is that if the schools aren't operating on a public basis, then bad teachers won't keep their jobs.

For the record E.T., I teach in a rural primary school, over 50% of our students are not Irish. The majority of them are refugees. I would be willing to bet that there are more social problems in our school than many Dublin schools. It's not simply a rural-urban divide when it comes to social problems anymore.

E.T.

Did you notice where I used the word "might"?

ntlbell

#15 wrote: »

I wasn't talking about results at all.

Seamus clarified what I meant.

For the record, I teach in a rural primary school, over 50% of our students are not Irish. The majority of them are refugees. I would be willing to bet that there are more social problems in our school than many Dublin schools. It's not simply a rural-urban divide when it comes to social problems anymore.

How do you define good? how do you prove it? What do you base a good teacher on if not results?

ntlbell

E.T. wrote: »

Did you notice where I used the word "might"?

why _might_ they have more anti social problems in inner city dublin?

Don't try to back out of it, just apoligise and move on.

E.T.

#15 wrote: »

I wasn't talking about results at all.

Seamus clarified what I meant.

For the record E.T., I teach in a rural primary school, over 50% of our students are not Irish. The majority of them are refugees. I would be willing to bet that there are more social problems in our school than many Dublin schools. It's not simply a rural-urban divide when it comes to social problems anymore.

Thanks for the clarification, I didn't mean to be completely negative, I've just seen the argument for results based pay too often. To clarify my own point - I was giving the most basic scenario I can think of. I teach in a rural school myself and there are plenty of social problems there too.

#15

ntlbell wrote: »

How do you define good? how do you prove it? What do you base a good teacher on if not results?

That's the problem isn't it? Assessment of teachers is a tricky one. You certainly can't assess primary teachers on the basis of children's exam results.

Maybe in a private system, the indivdual owners of each school could decide if appropriate progress is being made with each child, rather than a one-size fits all approach.

Using the current curriculum as as a measure of progress is not always suitable - some of my kids will have had a successful year if they are able to write a few sentences without any help, others will have had a successful year if they are able to compose a well-written story.

At first glance you would think that I have done a better job with the child that is able to produce better work - but that would be a wrong assumption.

I guess I'm just saying that having a specific set of standards for every single 7 year old is not necessarily a good thing. A localised approach may be better.

ntlbell

#15 wrote: »

That's the problem isn't it? Assessment of teachers is a tricky one. You certainly can't assess primary teachers on the basis of children's exam results.

Maybe in a private system, the indivdual owners of each school could decide if appropriate progress is being made with each child, rather than a one-size fits all approach.

Using the current curriculum as as a measure of progress is not always suitable - some of my kids will have had a successful year if they are able to write a few sentences without any help, others will have had a successful year if they are able to compose a well-written story.

At first glance you would think that I have done a better job with the child that is able to produce better work - but that would be a wrong assumption.

I guess I'm just saying that having a specific set of standards for every single 7 year old is not necessarily a good thing. A localised approach may be better.

Well this was really my point, it's a very difficult thing to measure and difficult for many to take when they see wages increasing across the board for in a lot of cases, no reason.

NinjaTruncs

#15 wrote: »

Education perhaps.

While it may not be feasible to do so, it would do away with teachers double jobbing, such as being a TD, as no private company would put up with that. but it's not only TD's that get away with it. In my School one of the teachers was the coach for a League of Ireland team, he basically had a sub teacher of his own as he was never there, I had him for one term and i think he taught the class twice in that time.

#15

NinjaTruncs wrote: »

While it may not be feasible to do so, it would do away with teachers double jobbing, such as being a TD, as no private company would put up with that. but it's not only TD's that get away with it. In my School one of the teachers was the coach for a League of Ireland team, he basically had a sub teacher of his own as he was never there, I had him for one term and i think he taught the class twice in that time.

If someone is able to work two jobs without compromising either of them, then they should be free to do so.

Obviously your teacher was not fulfilling his job requirements, but I am not defending that.

#15

ntlbell wrote: »

Well this was really my point, it's a very difficult thing to measure

Yeah, fair enough.

and difficult for many to take when they see wages increasing across the board for in a lot of cases, no reason.

PeakOutput

ntlbell wrote: »

why _might_ they have more anti social problems in inner city dublin?

Don't try to back out of it, just apoligise and move on.

it dosnt really require any apology or explanation there are numerous reasons why inner city dublin might/would/does have more anti social problems than other areas of the country

population density and poverty rate are just two, dont be so sensitive

How do you define good? how do you prove it? What do you base a good teacher on if not results?

in a public system independant continuous assessment could work

when you enter school you are given a range of standardised exams then every half a school year someone completely independant to the school comes in and tests the kids again(the to this being on a wide range of topics from purely academic to social) if this is done from the start and every kid is tested at least twice while being taught by each teacher trends will quickly arise and good and bad teachers can be differentiated between.

not only could this lead to the bad teachers being dumped it could lead to teachers being identified for being particularly good at something like if a number of anti social kids enter a particular teachers class and leave better than they came in then that teacher could eitehr take more anti social kids to try and help them(probably not the best idea but if worked properly might work) or be quizzed / studied(however you want to put it) about what they do differently that causes these particular changes and this could be incorporated into future training for all teachers

ntlbell

#15 wrote: »

Yeah, fair enough.

poor teachers get the same increases as bad ones.

it can be hard to stomach to someone who works their arse off to get a pay rise and people get them for doing nothing.

Welease

ntlbell wrote: »

How do you define good? how do you prove it? What do you base a good teacher on if not results?

Same as I have to do for the staff who work for me.. I have a set budget for pay rises (and a general guide on averages/levels etc.).

I then assess each of my staff based on their performance over the year.. I know my staff enough to understand their strengths and weaknesses and how they have performed on any given task or program. It's not that complicated to have a meritocracy system.

In the education space, for secondary schools it shouldn't be that complicated.. The same class will be taught by multiple teachers, so there are multiple different data points with which we can see how those indivduals are performing.

ntlbell

Welease wrote: »

Same as I have to do for the staff who work for me.. I have a set budget for pay rises (and a general guide on averages/levels etc.).

I then assess each of my staff based on their performance over the year.. I know my staff enough to understand their strengths and weaknesses and how they have performed on any given task or program. It's not that complicated to have a meritocracy system.

In the education space, for secondary schools it shouldn't be that complicated.. The same class will be taught by multiple teachers, so there are multiple different data points with which we can see how those indivduals are performing.

It is complicated, PeakOutput posted an option but i don't see that working, I have to think about it some more but there's too many if/but's/maybe's involved, plus it could turn out very costly.

You're saying it easy, you say judge performance, but you don't say how, if it's so easy, can you give us some ideas on how?

As I said previously, when you judge performance on exam/test results the teachers stop teaching and concentrate purly on passing exams.

Look at places like ashfield college ( i think it's closed now) you basically pay for a good leaving cert.

They teach you how to do well by concentrating basically on exam questions and how to answer them.

if you look at ashfields performance it would like every teacher is a genuis, but we don't care, private college not costing the tax payer anything.

The fact you do it for your company is really pointless to this if you're not offering any tangible suggestions

Welease

ntlbell wrote: »

It is complicated, PeakOutput posted an option but i don't see that working, I have to think about it some more but there's too many if/but's/maybe's involved, plus it could turn out very costly.

You're saying it easy, you say judge performance, but you don't say how, if it's so easy, can you give us some ideas on how?

As I said previously, when you judge performance on exam/test results the teachers stop teaching and concentrate purly on passing exams.

Look at places like ashfield college ( i think it's closed now) you basically pay for a good leaving cert.

They teach you how to do well by concentrating basically on exam questions and how to answer them.

if you look at ashfields performance it would like every teacher is a genuis, but we don't care, private college not costing the tax payer anything.

The fact you do it for your company is really pointless to this if you're not offering any tangible suggestions

The tangible suggestion was performance management which is used throughout the world...

I never said you specifically had to focus on the goal of exam results.. The the heads of education may decide that their primary goal is higher exam results then you can use that as one marker of performance.

If their goal is more general education (and all that it might entail) then your performance manage each of your staff... Exam marks will play a part, control of classes, respect and authority that a teacher has, there are lots of relevant skills that you can measure and observe your employees doing.
Does a teacher constantly get higher than average grades, Does a teach lose control of classes, Does a teacher command respect from the pupils, Has a teacher taken a difficult class and delivered improvement, Is the teacher organised and planned.. Do they have good communication skills. What do the pupils think of the teacher. What do the other teachers think of that teacher.

Everyone can name the good and bad teachers in the school they went to.. It shouldnt be beyond the bounds of possibity for the management of that school to have the same understanding of the people they employ.

There are just some of the items that a manager will be able to observe in their employees.

I have lots of project managers.. they all successfully deliver projects.. I used a multitude of data based and observational indicators to allow me to performance manage them. It's not rocket science.

Edit -

Think of it in these terms .. (exam results aside).. If i was going to be rude to teachers and question why we pay them so much for essentially sitting at the top of the room and reading out a book to 30 kids, there would be 100 replies here a) insulting me b) list the myriad of things they have to do to earn that money.. each of those items on the list and how they are done is what distinguishes great teachers from good teachers from poor teachers, and each can be observed and managed as part of performance management and meritocracy.

ntlbell

Are you a politician?

I find it hard to belive you have all these project managers delivering for you when you can't deliver a simple idea.

so here's the question.

How do we monitor the performance of a school teacher.

How do we do it in primary school

how do we it in secondary school

your answer, performance managment.

that's great

now how do we manage the performance of the school teacher.

how do you monitor the respect a teacher has?

survey the kids?

:rolleyes:

How do we observe these skills? do we hire people to sit in the classroom to monitor them? every day? once a week? will this cause trust issues? will actually gauge anything useful, how do you plan to do this?

We have all ready established that monitoring exam results will start to harm the education, see previous posts and look into how this work in parts of the states.

so if they get constant good grades are they good teachers or teaching kids how to answer certain questions and get good results? how do you monitor this? how do you tell the difference?

how do we monitor taken a difficult class? most classes have a small miniority of porblomatic pupils. do put them all toegether? again, how do we test this?

how do we work out how organised a teacher is?

check their diary?:rolleyes:

surley a teachers communication skills would be tested before they got the role no? if not they should be.

but again, how do you test this on an ongoing basis?

kids think bad teachers are the one that give them the most homework, get real.

now I'll ask again, anything we can actually do to achieve this

Welease

Did you actually read what I posted? it explains exactly how you do it..

Millions of companies manage meritocracy as part of their performance management... and no they don't need people sitting their watching them and taking notes, how do you think Google, HP, Dell, Intel, Cisco etc all do it?

If you look at the Times "top 100 companies" list, i would bet 99% of them use a meritocracy system.. They all seem to manage it, without the rediculous suggestions you are making..

ntlbell

Welease wrote: »

Did you actually read what I posted? it explains exactly how you do it..

Millions of companies manage meritocracy as part of their performance management... and no they don't need people sitting their watching them and taking notes, how do you think Google, HP, Dell, Intel, Cisco etc all do it?

If you look at the Times "top 100 companies" list, i would bet 99% of them use a meritocracy system.. They all seem to manage it, without the rediculous suggestions you are making..

No you didn't not one idea and not one way to do it.

I've worked in some of the companies you mention, and currently work for one.

I understand how *I* do performance managment. I understand how in lots of private sector companies and roles that are easy to performance manage.

teaching isn't one of them.

You're a linux system engineer in google.

You're given 200 servers to manage.

the goal is 99.99999% uptime.

6 months in you're at 95%

We can see clearly there is a performance issue.

You're a sales rep in intel, your target is X amount of sales per month

6 months in your 35% off, we can see there's a performance issue.

now there is actually ways to figure out performance.

tangible real results.

now, 3rd time

how do we do it for teachers.

how do we calculate the performance? what can we put in place to accurately judge the performance

try it.

it's not rocket science :rolleyes: