Anglo to put €700m into Quinn

oppenheimer1

Another twist in the tale of the Quinn group saga.

RTE NEWS wrote:

Anglo plan to inject €700m into Quinn

[URL="javascript:showPlayer('quinn_av.html')"] [/URL][URL="javascript:showPlayer('quinn_av.html')"] [/URL]Thursday, 8 April 2010 22:59
State-owned Anglo Irish Bank has proposed injecting €700m into the Quinn Group as part of a financial restructuring package.
The plan, if agreed, would see €150m injected into Quinn Insurance and €550m would be used to pay off bondholders.
Anglo Irish Bank would become majorityshareholder.

The plan faces significant hurdles, however. The Financial Regulator has some concerns but deal would also have to be approved by the European Commission.
Later, speaking on RTÉ's [URL="javascript:showPlayer("/news/2010/0408/primetime_av.html?2733094,null,230")"]Prime Time[/URL], Sean Quinn said that 'the Quinn Group has plenty of money. We don't need money, with regard to solvency and a requirement to pay claims.'
Listen to Sean Quinn's brief statement [URL="javascript:showPlayer("/news/2010/0408/primetime_av.html?2733107,null,230")"]here[/URL]
Mr Quinn said they had about £1bn 'pounds' to pay claims and another €400m on top of that surplus for solvency.
He said: 'All I can tell you is we are not looking for any money from anybody. we don't need extra money but the regulator feels that we need another €100m of solvency.'
Mr Quinn reiterated that they were not looking for money from anyone.
He said the company made €30m in the month of March.
Mr Quinn said in relation to the figure of €600m that is being mentioned, there was no agreement at this stage and he didn't know where the story was coming from.
Mr Quinn did say that current bondholders 'could argue they have some recourse to property within Quinn Direct if anything went wrong with the Quinn Group'.

Interesting times. I wonder whats really going on there. Effectively another nationalised company, one wonders where it will end.

Liam Byrne

Anglo don't have €700 million.

Welease

i thought the regulator had rejected this?

yop

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Anglo don't have €700 million.

But the Irish Gov do, I wonder if the gov since they can't invest directly have with pressure from who ever, are going to use Anglo as a "vehicle" to invest?

Probably way off the mark on this though!!!

Atlantic Dawn

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Anglo don't have €700 million.

They seem to have it now, can't believe the billions they required and got just over a week ago and can now just throw down €700 million of our hard earned like it's nothing. I would feel happier if every taxpayer in the country just wrote a cheque to Sean Quinn for €50 a head and that was his €100 million sorted, I don't want any more investments from Anglo in anything, they have ruined this country and it's people for generations to come.

Liam Byrne

yop wrote: »

But the Irish Gov do,

Sez who ? :eek: :eek: :eek:

Aren't they waffling on every single day about how they have a massive deficit ?

Welease

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

They seem to have it now, can't believe the billions they required and got just over a week ago and can now just throw down €700 million of our hard earned like it's nothing.

In fairness... it;s our hard earned going to a business that actually makes money.. which is a first in this handout culture...

Atlantic Dawn

Welease wrote: »

In fairness... it;s our hard earned going to a business that actually makes money.. which is a first in this handout culture...

It should be our money going to it though, not through any connection with Anglo Irish, with their track record they shouldn't be allowed to exist as a commercial enterprise.

yop

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Sez who ? :eek: :eek: :eek:

Aren't they waffling on every single day about how they have a massive deficit ?

I know what you are saying, thats why I said I could be way off the mark BUT where did the money come from to facilitate the reverse in paycuts to top level civil servants?
Where did the money come from to pay off the heads of the banks, pay off the politicians who resigned lately?

There is money there even though they keep telling us there isn't.

Just my 2 cents but I dont believe a word that comes out of their mouths at this stage.

Kristopherus

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

It should be our money going to it though, not through any connection with Anglo Irish, with their track record they shouldn't be allowed to exist as a commercial enterprise.

But is not Anglo 100% owned by the taxpayer. That being so, I would have no issue with Anglo becoming a large shareholder in Q.I. A very good investment IMO.

Atlantic Dawn

Kristopherus wrote: »

But is not Anglo 100% owned by the taxpayer. That being so, I would have no issue with Anglo becoming a large shareholder in Q.I. A very good investment IMO.

Yes but bar a handful of people the very same employees are running the bank as were involved in bringing it down, really doesn't make sense letting them continue running the business which they completely ruined.

Liam Byrne

yop wrote: »

Just my 2 cents but I dont believe a word that comes out of their mouths at this stage.

Fair point; I'm with you on that opinion.

Welease

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Yes but bar a handful of people the very same employees are running the bank as were involved in bringing it down, really doesn't make sense letting them continue running the business which they completely ruined.

Yeah but we already let them continue running it Just for once in this piss poor countries existance lets not firesale a perfectly profitable company while picking up the losses...

Liam Byrne

Welease wrote: »

Yeah but we already let them continue running it Just for once in this piss poor countries existance lets not firesale a perfectly profitable company while picking up the losses...

Will we get the profits, though, or will they disappear into the Anglo cesspit ?

Welease

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Will we get the profits, though, or will they disappear into the Anglo cesspit ?

lol is anyone brave enough to answer that....

legalised theft :mad:

wobblyknees

I heard Quinn himself said to the regulator that it was his company and he'd run it whatever way he wanted to. I'm guessing they didnt like that approach.

Liam Byrne

Welease wrote: »

lol is anyone brave enough to answer that....

Is anyone brave enough to ask it live on radio or TV ?

Welease

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Is anyone brave enough to ask it live on radio or TV ?

Would you be allowed to when he is the primary sponsor?

Usual bollox in Ireland.. we all moan the regulator fked the country over.. We get a new regulator in.. and in true Irish form, because some complete prick who mortgaged the country over in Anglo for the next 50 fkin years provides some jobs in Cavan we should forgive him, and harass the new regulator..

What a complete load of ****e..

If Quinn gave a fk about his staff he would'nt have gambled their futures.
If he really gave a fk... he wouldn't have pulled out 200 million for his family (while moaning they were 100m short) a short while ago
If he expects everyone else to pay even fkin more taxes to bail his ass out while not giving up his billionaire lifestyle.. he can fk off...

and why should he be allowed to put other competitors insurance jobs under pressure by under-cutting prices by failing to adhere to liquidity rules?

BostonB

Just how rich do you need to be to get a bailout around here anyway?

ei.sdraob

700 million ah sure thats nothing :cool:

Nobody saved SR Technics, nor did anyone save waterford glass etc etc etc
to hell with your quinn jobs, the high cost of insurance is a big part of why Ireland lost its competitiveness :mad:

North_West_Art

the government have 700 million? Im sure you have all seen the Irish Debt Clock.... http://www.financedublin.com/debtclock.php

AlekSmart

http://www.independent.ie/multimedia/archive/00546/quinnprotest4_i_546329s.jpg


I`m hopeful that the above picture is of a group of concerned Quinn employees demonstrating in support of the Financial Regulators attempts to save their jobs....That IS the reason is`nt it ...??

I am hugely impressed by the uniform standard of Placard and of Golf Umbrella.

Can it get any better I ask ?? :rolleyes:

oceanclub

AlekSmart wrote: »

I am hugely impressed by the uniform standard of Placard and of Golf Umbrella.

Hah; I was just about to comment on that myself. I've never seen such a well-planned spontaneous protest.

P.

Opium led greed

yop wrote: »

I know what you are saying, thats why I said I could be way off the mark BUT where did the money come from to facilitate the reverse in paycuts to top level civil servants?
Where did the money come from to pay off the heads of the banks, pay off the politicians who resigned lately?

There is money there even though they keep telling us there isn't.

Just my 2 cents but I dont believe a word that comes out of their mouths at this stage.

Yes they have money, but it is money borrowed from private investors, international bond-holders and european banks. Sooner or later they'll want it back.

WalterMitty

Shows how fecked up things went and are that one of the wealthiest and shrewedist business men got involved with anglo and is near bankrupt. What hope had Joe 6-pints when Quinn couldnt see the wood from the trees? Sean Quinn should have read the propertypin back in 2006 :pac:

maninasia

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

It should be our money going to it though, not through any connection with Anglo Irish, with their track record they shouldn't be allowed to exist as a commercial enterprise.

It's another example of 'TOO BIG TO FAIL'. These guys gambled with their own money, ran up massive debts and then expect the regular citizen to bail them out, while they still keep their previous profits and future ones, makes me sick. Invest the money, nationalise it and sell it off on the stock market with new management!

A Primal Nut

I assume the 700m would really just be money that Quinn doesn't have to pay back, so instead of owing 4bn he owes 3.3bn?

sellerbarry

From a joe soap (knows very little about all this, but is a tax payer and should have his say) point of view. I believe Anglo should have been let go to the wall. Whoever was owed money from them would have to get in line and wait for repayment etc. (tough! bad choice of bank!) It is now a bottomless pit for us to pour money into and still has mostly the same staff. (All management positions should have been sacked on the spot!). Sean Quinn is laughing at us all and now it seems is getting bailed out by a bank (should i even call it that?) that is surviving on handouts itself. Meanwhile, the other banks AIB et al, after being bailed out by the government NAMA (joke) machine have the neck to kick the taxpayers in the bollxx with an interest hike on mortgages?
This Government is a joke . (NO, i did not vote for them)

OK, i'm finished for now. Who's first to slag me off for not knowing enough about politics?;)

oldyouth

Deleted User wrote: »

Nobody saved SR Technics, nor did anyone save waterford glass etc etc etc
to hell with your quinn jobs, the high cost of insurance is a big part of why Ireland lost its competitiveness :mad:

Firstly, every persons job is important. The ordinary Quinn worker would not be on big money and would have absolutely no input as to the way the Company was run.

While I am in no way a fan of Sean Quinn, wait and see how dear your insurance will be without him. He is the only person keeping the other Insurers in check, who are chomping at the bit to increase their premiums because of stock market and weather losses in recent years

markpb

Deleted User wrote: »

Nobody saved SR Technics, nor did anyone save waterford glass etc etc etc. to hell with your quinn jobs, the high cost of insurance is a big part of why Ireland lost its competitiveness :mad:

Wow but that's childish. Whatever about the cause of the situation, what do you have against those people having jobs? Are you really that bitter!

What happened when QDI entered the insurance market? People (mostly young people) who couldn't previously afford insurance could get it. Other insurers reduced their prices. Two years ago when I was tendering for insurance for our apartment block, QDI was the cheapest by over €10,000. How on earth can you blame Quinn for the high cost of insurance?

If it makes you feel better, Axa were interviewed a few days ago by one of the leading papers here (can't find a link, sorry). They said they had never been happy with QDI in the market because their aggressive investment strategy meant that QDI were charging lower than industry average premia and that Irish insurance customers would soon have to leave the alice in wonderland insurance market and pay proper premia.

Bugnug

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Another twist in the tale of the Quinn group saga.




Interesting times. I wonder whats really going on there. Effectively another nationalised company, one wonders where it will end.

I am no lawyer and I am sure there are loop holes and ways out of paying back money that is owed by the super wealthy, but why are paople like Sean Quinn not forced to pay what they owe out of their personal wealth? The Quinn family openly Anglo €2.8bn. They have obviously been doing a bad job of running the business, making personal guarantees to foreign creditors. Can the govermnent not fast track some legislation so that the likes of Quinn, Dunne, Fitzpatrick, Drumm et al have to pay back the money by whatever means necessary? They did it with the CAB legislation why can they not do the same to these criminals? In fact could CAB legislation not be applied here?

There is something very sinister going on here with this golden circle and the real truth is yet to come out and I get the very real impression that Sean Quinn is hiding behind his employees and getting them to fight his battle, he is a very cunning guy. The anger of the Quinn emplyees is totally misdirected. Its Quinn and his greedy practices that have put his company in this mess not the regulator. I feel another heafty sum being added to the already astronomical tax bill for you and me.

And dont get me started on Bertie Aherne "the teflon Taoiseach" indeed.

markpb

Bugnug wrote: »

Why are paople like Sean Quinn not forced to pay what they owe out of their personal wealth? The Quinn family openly Anglo €2.8bn. They have obviously been doing a bad job of running the business, making personal guarantees to foreign creditors.

I don't disagree that white collar crime is rampant and unpunished here but you're missing the point with those two lines above. Businessmen give personal guarantees to investors *all the time*. It's a better than average way of stopping them taking out loans (or leases) and then collapsing the company when going gets tough. Under normal business law, they could walk away without having to pay anything. With a personal guarantee, they are still liable even if the company is gone. There's nothing wrong with it, it's not a sign of anything untoward.

The other thing is that business borrow huge amounts of money all the time. They borrow it for cashflow (in a rolling credit facility), for expansion, for capital expenditure. There's nothing wrong with that. The problem only arises when they can't make the repayments or they breach another covenant. I've seen nothing in the press to indicate that the Quinn Group has failed to make repayments and I've only seen one mention of the covenant breach.

In fact, the only thing I've seen that might cause that to happen is if Quinn Insurance is sold off. In that case, the guarantees given by Quinn Insurance to other parts of the Quinn Group would fail, the foreign investors would take their money, the group would collapse and Anglo would be left holding the ball. Yes the regulator absolutely took the right course of action but Quinn has been allowed to move into a 'too big to fail' situation so it's not just a case of the insurance company anymore. Actions taken against Quinn Insurance could prove perilous for the rest of the group, for thousands of employees all over the country (not just in Cavan), for the DoSFA if they end up on the dole and for Anglo is the loans go unpaid.

Bugnug

markpb wrote: »

I don't disagree that white collar crime is rampant and unpunished here but you're missing the point with those two lines above. Businessmen give personal guarantees to investors *all the time*. It's a better than average way of stopping them taking out loans (or leases) and then collapsing the company when going gets tough. Under normal business law, they could walk away without having to pay anything. With a personal guarantee, they are still liable even if the company is gone. There's nothing wrong with it, it's not a sign of anything untoward.

The other thing is that business borrow huge amounts of money all the time. They borrow it for cashflow (in a rolling credit facility), for expansion, for capital expenditure. There's nothing wrong with that. The problem only arises when they can't make the repayments or they breach another covenant. I've seen nothing in the press to indicate that the Quinn Group has failed to make repayments and I've only seen one mention of the covenant breach.

I understand all of that but is it not the case that this guy borrowed all of this money and then through dodgy practices has essentially jeopardised the future of his employees. Not only that but his constant under cutting of his competitors in all sectors in order to remain liquid has put pressure on thousands more jobs. The way I see it this guy is a criminal and he will inevitably be bailed out one way or another and you and me will pick up the tab. Why can the government not fast track new legislation that gives them power to seize all passports, assets and cash accounts of all of these people until they recover as much of the debt as possible? Like I said they did it with CAB.

baalthor

markpb wrote: »

Wow but that's childish. Whatever about the cause of the situation, what do you have against those people having jobs? Are you really that bitter!

What happened when QDI entered the insurance market? People (mostly young people) who couldn't previously afford insurance could get it.

If an insurance company has a strategy of 1.lower premiums and 2. higher risk clients, it needs to run a very tight ship financially because 1 and 2 don't really go together.

jimmysull

Bugnug wrote: »

I understand all of that but is it not the case that this guy borrowed all of this money and then through dodgy practices has essentially jeopardised the future of his employees. Not only that but his constant under cutting of his competitors in all sectors in order to remain liquid has put pressure on thousands more jobs. The way I see it this guy is a criminal and he will inevitably be bailed out one way or another and you and me will pick up the tab. Why can the government not fast track new legislation that gives them power to seize all passports, assets and cash accounts of all of these people until they recover as much of the debt as possible? Like I said they did it with CAB.

I don't see Quinn as a criminal as you say he is and I have to admit I have a little sympathy for him: He built a business empire employing thousands and one bad investment has jeopardised everything he has spent almost 50 years building. 50 years of endless sound decisions and 1 bad one it seems.
Let me explain; The media have put a spin on it that Quinn brought down Anglo, but let's face it he would never have invested in the company if he knew that the share price was artificially inflated by fraudulent banking practices. It's obvious that even when the share price was falling he was being told it will be ok by advisors/bankers and chased his losses. The Quinn dept is a tiny percentage when compared to the overall debt writeoffs of Anglo and if the Quinn group survives is one of the few Anglo debts that will actually be paid off.
Contrary to the spin that it was Quinn "dodgy practices" that brought down Anglo it was the fraud at Anglo that brought Quinn to the impasse he is at today.
In my opinion if the Quinn Group has enough cash to cover claims but the regulator wants more of a cushion then why not let Quinn fill that cushion out of the 1million a day cash that the business is generating?
We have enough businesses failing here and enough tax payer burden, why are we trying to cause another collapse?

Fat_Fingers

jimmysull wrote: »

In my opinion if the Quinn Group has enough cash to cover claims but the regulator wants more of a cushion then why not let Quinn fill that cushion out of the 1million a day cash that the business is generating?
We have enough businesses failing here and enough tax payer burden, why are we trying to cause another collapse?

I could be wrong but i think problem here is that Quinn can't meet his liabilities NOW. 1 million a day and talk about that he will have enough money to cover liabilities in 12 months means absolutely nothing to 1.1Million policy holders today. People who are making claims now don’t care about Quinn Insurance in 12 months - its NOW that he can’t meet liabilities.

And as it happened already there is no guarantee that Quinn might not decide again to siphon out another 200million out of the group when he feels like it.

maninasia

jimmysull wrote: »

I don't see Quinn as a criminal as you say he is and I have to admit I have a little sympathy for him: He built a business empire employing thousands and one bad investment has jeopardised everything he has spent almost 50 years building. 50 years of endless sound decisions and 1 bad one it seems.
Let me explain; The media have put a spin on it that Quinn brought down Anglo, but let's face it he would never have invested in the company if he knew that the share price was artificially inflated by fraudulent banking practices. It's obvious that even when the share price was falling he was being told it will be ok by advisors/bankers and chased his losses. The Quinn dept is a tiny percentage when compared to the overall debt writeoffs of Anglo and if the Quinn group survives is one of the few Anglo debts that will actually be paid off.
Contrary to the spin that it was Quinn "dodgy practices" that brought down Anglo it was the fraud at Anglo that brought Quinn to the impasse he is at today.
In my opinion if the Quinn Group has enough cash to cover claims but the regulator wants more of a cushion then why not let Quinn fill that cushion out of the 1million a day cash that the business is generating?
We have enough businesses failing here and enough tax payer burden, why are we trying to cause another collapse?

Did Anglo bankroll Quinn's business, especially after his 25% stake in the bank? Who was funding who?

Bugnug

jimmysull wrote: »

I don't see Quinn as a criminal as you say he is and I have to admit I have a little sympathy for him: He built a business empire employing thousands and one bad investment has jeopardised everything he has spent almost 50 years building. 50 years of endless sound decisions and 1 bad one it seems.
Let me explain; The media have put a spin on it that Quinn brought down Anglo, but let's face it he would never have invested in the company if he knew that the share price was artificially inflated by fraudulent banking practices. It's obvious that even when the share price was falling he was being told it will be ok by advisors/bankers and chased his losses. The Quinn dept is a tiny percentage when compared to the overall debt writeoffs of Anglo and if the Quinn group survives is one of the few Anglo debts that will actually be paid off.
Contrary to the spin that it was Quinn "dodgy practices" that brought down Anglo it was the fraud at Anglo that brought Quinn to the impasse he is at today.
In my opinion if the Quinn Group has enough cash to cover claims but the regulator wants more of a cushion then why not let Quinn fill that cushion out of the 1million a day cash that the business is generating?
We have enough businesses failing here and enough tax payer burden, why are we trying to cause another collapse?

Sorry Jimmy but I think you are reacting to this situation in precisely the manner that Sean Quinn wants you to. It is Sean Quinn who has manipulted this situation masterfully, the guy could give tips to Max Clifford. I have zero sympathy for a guy who is worth €6bn (that we know of). Greed and nothing less than greed has put Sean Quinn, his family and his employees in the situation they are in. He is making himself out to be some kind of victim and in one of the most digusting callous displays of cowardice ever wittnessed he is using his 5 thousand employees and their fammilies as pawns in his little game.

oceanclub

jimmysull wrote: »

Contrary to the spin that it was Quinn "dodgy practices" that brought down Anglo it was the fraud at Anglo that brought Quinn to the impasse he is at today.

Actually, there's far more dodgy practises than that:

(1) Quinn Insurance doesn't meet its solvency requirements
(2) Quinn siphoned off money from the Insurance bit to buy shares
(3) Quinn build up his 25% stake in Anglo using a method known as "contracts for difference"

The latter practise was why Quinn got himself into such financial trouble. If he didn't realise the property market was overheated, that's idiocy, not fraud.

P.

ei.sdraob

Another day, another bailout

my respect for Quinn has been shattered now that i know he owes the taxpayer 2billion+

sigh

Head The Wall

AlekSmart wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/multimedia/archive/00546/quinnprotest4_i_546329s.jpg

I am hugely impressed by the uniform standard of Placard and of Golf Umbrella.

Can it get any better I ask ?? :rolleyes:

I hear Quinn has supplied the Dublin employees with a few boxes of golf balls each and they are going to throw them through the windows of the Financial Regulators office

oceanclub

Great summing up over here:

http://www.politics.ie/economy/127508-anglo-quinnish-bankinsurance-aka-quanglo-26.html#post2586854

What a wonderful deal.

Hundreds of millions of euro of state funds, courtesy of Anglo, plus an fairly explicit commitment to plug any future funding holes that emerge anywhere in the Quinn Group, for fear of Anglo not getting its loans paid back should group companies be allowed to go under.

And yes, we’re talking cement, glass and hotels – those cash-rich drivers of the knowledge economy. I wonder what the state's own bondholders will make of that off-balance sheet funding commitment.


On top of that, we're looking at a higher industry levy so the consumers can pay again for someone else's gambling debts. Oh, and the message to any company thinking of entering the market in Ireland that the connected Irish companies will always be looked after, so keep your business to yourselves. Not to mention the job losses at Quinn's unsubsidised competitors.

What do we get in return? An insolvent insurance company, still effectively controlled by the man who ruined it, but nominally owned by a bank that couldn’t manage a corner shop, nevermind another financial services business. Plus some hazy level of control, thanks to the acquired bonds and warrants, over the wider Quinn Group businesses.

What we really get in return is (1) a couple of Fianna Fáil TDs saved, (2) another ticking debt bomb for the next government, (3) a financial regulator who learns, along with the Gardai, not to bother doing his job, (4) a grateful Sean Quinn (and Ireland's oligarchy in general) bankrolling FF with about as much transparency as they complete their solvency returns to said regulator, (5) just for laughs, Anglo pretending it hasn't lost over €2bn on Quinn (it has).

How is it that ad goes? "Insurance fraud is a crime. When someone exaggerates his companys solvency and extorts money from the state, he's putting his hand in your pocket. Report insurance fraud by calling... well, nobody's listening"

Brian Lenihan is the most Machiavellian operator since Dev. There is more and more evidence to suggest he is ensuring that Ireland defaults on its debt and enters the dark ages, but only under the next government. Face it: it’s the cutest way for FF to get back into office, and that’s all that matters.

P.

maninasia

It should be declared insolvent, nationalised and then sold off...what's the state sponsored socialism for the rich about.

K-9

Thought this was a good piece, puts it in perspective:
The Quinn Group and a known unknown

Last week, the new Head of Regulation at the Central Bank, Matthew Elderfield, applied to the High Court to have joint administrators appointed to Quinn Insurance because of a breach of solvency rules arising from guarantees totalling €1.2bn, dating from 2005 to 2008, which were provided by eight subsidiaries of QIL to cover the debts owing by the wider Quinn Group to bondholders.

On Monday, a High Court hearing is scheduled on the issue.

There are thousands of jobs at stake but the regulator has to make a judgment on the issue of Anglo extending its exposure to its biggest debtor, in advance of a ruling by the European Commission on State aid.

At a time of very low interest rates, the annual servicing costs of the existing personal debt to Anglo is at least €60m.

To pay this post-tax amount, would require a distribution from the group of over €100m annually - - never mind income to pay down the capital.

There needs to be some clarity on how the debt will be paid, including unavoidable asset disposals.

On the new regulatory regime, to use a French expression, it is important that we don't kill the chicken in the egg.
Organised public campaigns can be as invidious as the system which brought ruin to the economy.

maninasia

jimmysull wrote: »

I don't see Quinn as a criminal as you say he is and I have to admit I have a little sympathy for him: He built a business empire employing thousands and one bad investment has jeopardised everything he has spent almost 50 years building. 50 years of endless sound decisions and 1 bad one it seems.
Let me explain; The media have put a spin on it that Quinn brought down Anglo, but let's face it he would never have invested in the company if he knew that the share price was artificially inflated by fraudulent banking practices. It's obvious that even when the share price was falling he was being told it will be ok by advisors/bankers and chased his losses. The Quinn dept is a tiny percentage when compared to the overall debt writeoffs of Anglo and if the Quinn group survives is one of the few Anglo debts that will actually be paid off.
Contrary to the spin that it was Quinn "dodgy practices" that brought down Anglo it was the fraud at Anglo that brought Quinn to the impasse he is at today.
In my opinion if the Quinn Group has enough cash to cover claims but the regulator wants more of a cushion then why not let Quinn fill that cushion out of the 1million a day cash that the business is generating?
We have enough businesses failing here and enough tax payer burden, why are we trying to cause another collapse?

He made a 3 billion euro bet on the shares going up using 'contract for differences', meaning he only had to put a small % of the money down as down-payment. That is hardly 'one small mistake'...more like a Jupiter sized planetary collision of a mistake. Maybe he was just a gambler who piggybacked on the boom...that's all.

jimmysull

Fat_Fingers wrote: »

I could be wrong but i think problem here is that Quinn can't meet his liabilities NOW.

@Fat_Fingers
This is where the confusion seems to be. I could be wrong too but it seems that yes the insurance co meet its liabilities now and that it has cash to spare over that. The problem is that in an insurance company you need to be able to cover 150% of your liabilities and he is short on that. He claims that the insurance company has 140% so is 10% short. The regulator hasn't given a number. Yes that is breaking the rules but not sure if you'd call it a crime? If he had 90% then maybe that would be a crime as he would be taking premiums to fill a hole.
If I've misunderstood then numbers I'm open to correction

jimmysull

maninasia wrote: »

He made a 3 billion euro bet on the shares going up using 'contract for differences', meaning he only had to put a small % of the money down as down-payment. That is hardly 'one small mistake'...more like a Jupiter sized planetary collision of a mistake. Maybe he was just a gambler who piggybacked on the boom...that's all.

Read my post again, I never called it a "small" mistake. It was a huge mistake, not arguing with you there but it is in contrast to what have been a lot of good decisions over nearly 50 years. you don't grow a multibillion business from nothing if you make bad decisions all the time

K-9

jimmysull wrote: »

@Fat_Fingers
This is where the confusion seems to be. I could be wrong too but it seems that yes the insurance co meet its liabilities now and that it has cash to spare over that. The problem is that in an insurance company you need to be able to cover 150% of your liabilities and he is short on that. He claims that the insurance company has 140% so is 10% short. The regulator hasn't given a number. Yes that is breaking the rules but not sure if you'd call it a crime? If he had 90% then maybe that would be a crime as he would be taking premiums to fill a hole.
If I've misunderstood then numbers I'm open to correction

That's my understanding too. The Company is a Going Concern and is meeting its liabilities that fall due. The problem seems to be guarantees to other Quinn Group Companies.

jimmysull

Bugnug wrote: »

Sorry Jimmy but I think you are reacting to this situation in precisely the manner that Sean Quinn wants you to.

I don't think Seán Quinn cares what I think.

Bugnug wrote: »

Greed and nothing less than greed has put Sean Quinn, his family and his employees in the situation they are in.

I do not deny that Seán Quinn may be greedy. You cannot build a multimillion business from scratch without some kind of motivation. If it was greed then fairplay to greed. If that was then his downfall so be it but it doesn't take away from the fact that he and all other shareholders were victims of fraudulent banking at Anglo that inflated the share price so a few execs could get mega bonuses. There is no way anyone, even Sean Quinn would have invested in the bank if they knew it was a fraud.

Bugnug wrote: »

He is making himself out to be some kind of victim and in one of the most digusting callous displays of cowardice ever wittnessed he is using his 5 thousand employees and their fammilies as pawns in his little game.

He may be the architect of his own downfall with his decisions re Anglo & loans but as stated already he IS also a victim of Drumm & Fitzpatrick's bank.
As for his using his empoyees as pawns.....I'm sure I'd be happy to support my employer if he was under attack too if it meant my job was on the line.