Finland's education system: something for Ireland to aspire to?

Dionysus

Just came across a BBC article, accompanied by two videos, which examines why Finland has the most successful education system in the world today.

The Finnish system would easily be classed as "alternative" or "radical" by Irish standards: no school uniforms; students on first name terms with teachers (the gaelscoileanna being the Irish exception in this regard); very few hours spent in school; students start school at 7 years of age; all teachers must do a 300 credit teacher training degree, which includes a masters and takes about five years; there is no distinction between primary and secondary schools; no streaming/students of all abilities are kept in the same classroom; fundamental belief that no child can be left behind; and, the bit I am most amazed by, an extra teacher in each class going around helping the weaker students (i.e. they put the financial resources behind their "no child left behind" philosophy. It's not just a nice-sounding ideal in a Department of Education speech).

The emphasis in the Finnish system is on languages, maths and science subjects and large Finnish companies such as Nokia play an active role in supporting this emphasis. Finland has a population of 5.3 million people so in size it's not a million kilometres away from our own.

Here's the BBC article:

Why do Finland's schools get the best results?


And more on Finland's education system:

Education in Finland

Education key to economic survival

Finland and Ireland, no. 1 and no 15 respectively in the OECD rankings in 2007

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Would you pay more taxes for Ireland to have an education system of the same standard as Finland's? Would you support a school culture which has the informal and relaxed culture which marks Finland's school system? What would you see as a negative consequence if our education system moved in this direction? In what other ways do you think our system could become better?

No.. I'm out of school so don't really care about the quality of it.
I'll just send my kids to Finland.

Red Hand

If something works well and makes sense, then Paddy is allergic to it.:pac:

It wouldn't happen here. There is little innovation or imagination from the people that make decisions here.

admiralofthefleet

i know a finnish bird who is fucking mental so ill send my future kids to an irish school

My name is URL

Sounds like a great system. Teachers should be qualified experts in whatever subject they're teaching too.. not just able to apply a generic syllabus

dsmythy

Sweden are still behind us. The Swedes must be wondering why they are paying all those taxes.

Overheal

Whatever: I just want the American System overhauled.

JuliusCaesar

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

If something works well and makes sense, then Paddy is allergic to it.:pac:

It wouldn't happen here. There is little innovation or imagination from the people that make decisions here.

The Irish govt only ever copies something which has been tried in other countries - usually when the other country decides that it hasn't really worked. (Ballymun flat towers). Or they try to copy it, but without putting any money into it, and then say that it won't work in an Irish context.

Overheal

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

The Irish govt only ever copies something which has been tried in other countries - usually when the other country decides that it hasn't really worked. (Ballymun flat towers). Or they try to copy it, but without putting any money into it, and then say that it won't work in an Irish context.

Mmmmmm.......- In fairness, Ireland is often cited as the Model for the public smoking ban.

Biggins

Overheal wrote: »

Mmmmmm.......- In fairness, Ireland is often cited as the Model for the public smoking ban.

Very true.
Sadly however, where once we were historically an island of "Saints and Scholars" - we are no longer seen as either.

CreepingDeath

Dionysus wrote: »

Just came across a BBC article, accompanied by two videos, which examines why Finland has the most successful education system in the world today.

I'd say it's due to the fact that if they get sent outside for misbehaving they freeze to death.

GLaDOS

Definitely, might produce truckloads of awesome metal bands then

ibarelycare

Dionysus wrote: »

...
Would you pay more taxes...

No

The_Minister

Tbh, my dream for the Irish education system is to pay primary school teachers €120,000+ a year, but give them no job security.

bleg

Sounds absolutely great. I'm actually fascinated by it.

Not going to happen though. INTO, ASTI and TUI will never go for it.

Jesus Wept

Deleted User wrote: »

No.. I'm out of school so don't really care about the quality of it.
I'll just send my kids to Finland.

The morning school run would be a bollox though.

Overheal

Biggins wrote: »

Very true.
Sadly however, where once we were historically an island of "Saints and Scholars" - we are no longer seen as either.

.......back in the dark ages?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Kells

thecornflake

school is grand and dandy , but the main place where people learn the important stuff is third level , secondary and primary schools are just a lead up to that imo. Sure most courses in 3rd level do a recap of what you learn in 2nd level anyway.Thats where the major money should be put. That no child left behind thing is a loada crap, if they want to be left behind ( which most do ) , then leave them there.

bleg

I'd like to see more learning for the sake of learning and less curriculum based learning.

Bob the Seducer

dsmythy wrote: »

Sweden are still behind us. The Swedes must be wondering why they are paying all those taxes.

They'll just have to comfort themselves with their well run, extensive, affordable and punctual public transport system.

Teachers in Finland are extremely well paid and well qualified...this being Ireland you'd only get people wanting the finish system but moaning like mad at having to pay the teachers when we got it

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Hey, we ARE planning on giving students bonus poaints for high Maths grade in the leaving - how do you like THAT for radical and innovative!

galwayrush

All highly qualifyed teachers :eek:we can't compete with that.:rolleyes:

galwayrush

mariaalice wrote: »

Teachers in Finland are extremely well paid and well qualified...this being Ireland you'd only get people wanting the finish system but moaning like mad at having to pay the teachers when we got it

I have no problem if we have to give the good ones more money, as long as we can sack the bad ones.:cool:

El Siglo

I think this video is a perfect analogy of the Irish mentality when it comes to things like this...;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQpc0QfBaMc

Donkey Oaty

mariaalice wrote: »

Teachers in Finland are extremely well paid and well qualified...this being Ireland you'd only get people wanting the finish system but moaning like mad at having to pay the teachers when we got it

Ireland pays teachers more than Finland does. A lot more.

Amhran Nua

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Hey, we ARE planning on giving students bonus poaints for high Maths grade in the leaving - how do you like THAT for radical and innovative!

They used to do that, it worked out pretty well in terms of gearing students up for science and engineering courses. The problem was it got insanely difficult towards the end, so much so that university level maths students would have a hard time with it (as I recall). Not sure why that happened.

Heres another few ideas:

The main policy however is a commitment to combining all Irish educational works, books, and curriculums onto a single centralised information centre. This project will be undertaken in association with recognised world leaders in the market, such as Google. Access to this database will be provided by induction powered (no cables) ruggedised electronic tablets, connected via wi-fi to central school repositories of the information covered. These tablets will be engineered to be long lasting and responsive, with e-ink screens (non luminous, like a sheet of paper behind an unreflective plastic screen), which has the added advantage of a much longer battery life.

This intiative will not only provide a boost to domestic Irish industry in creating and maintaining these resources, as well as giving us a system to potentially export to other countries, but will greatly expand and consolidate the material available to students, allowing them to study at their own pace. This also allows the "waterfall effect", which means students who don't understand a concept or term can select that term for a greater explanation, and so work back until they can reach a level they do understand, before building from there. An emphasis will be placed on the idea that "Education is your own responsibility", without reducing the role of the teacher. Another advantage is that the system isn't just limited to text, it can be used to transfer sounds to students, making language education, a key factor in future growth, much simpler.

Students will also be able to interact with one another and with qualified tutors on a national level (this system disconnected from the main internet), and hold discussions in forums, as well as building their own knowledgebase of ideas and solutions which will accumulate over time into an enormous volume of knowledge to help students at every level, all the way to postgraduate. It can also be used by for example businesses to interact with students to give them real life knowledge and understanding of the actual challenges they will face in the world, providing reference material and assisting with research on a one to one basis, which will persist for future students to read and understand.

I think we could definetely learn a lot from the Finnish system however - I particularly like the idea of a second teacher in the classroom (tutor or trainee teacher maybe?)

galwayrush

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

Ireland pays teachers more than Finland does. A lot more.

I heard a comment on the radio that an ambulance driver in Ireland is paid more than a Consultant is in Finland.

PK2008

Pff, The Christian Brothers beats all competition




.......and students

Miss Lockhart

My name is URL wrote: »

Sounds like a great system. Teachers should be qualified experts in whatever subject they're teaching too.. not just able to apply a generic syllabus

How exactly do you define a "qualified expert"?

Overheal

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

How exactly do you define a "qualified expert"?

Have someone who did a Major in History teach history. Etc.

Universities typically require you have a Phd in order to profess a subject, correct? Make that a standard across the board.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

How exactly do you define a "qualified expert"?

Someone who knows what they're teaching as opposed to someone who played full forward for Kerry in an all-Ireland.

Overheal

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Someone who knows what they're teaching as opposed to someone who played full forward for Kerry in an all-Ireland.

Having said that, Jamesie O'Connor knows his sh*t about Economics, speaking as a former pupil.

Miss Lockhart

Overheal wrote: »

Have someone who did a Major in History teach history. Etc.

Universities typically require you have a Phd in order to profess a subject, correct? Make that a standard across the board.

Most professors have a Phd maybe, but only one of my college lecturers had one. They were excellent lecturers though.

i suppose well paid is relative to where you live ...anyway it wouldn't work..you cant impose one culture on another ...in other word there are culturally specific reasons why the finish systme works in Finland and probably wouldn't work in an other culture

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Overheal wrote: »

Having said that, Jamesie O'Connor knows his sh*t about Economics, speaking as a former pupil.

Which is probably why he was appointed to do the job.

mariaalice wrote: »

i suppose well paid is relative to where you live ...anyway it wouldn't work..you cant impose one culture on another ...in other word there are culturally specific reasons why the finish systme works in Finland and probably wouldn't work in an other culture

Nothing to do with culture. Unless their culture is open-minded and sensible and the idea woudln't work because ours... isn't.

RonMexico

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Most professors have a Phd maybe, but only one of my college lecturers had one. They were excellent lecturers though.

Fookin hell what college was that:eek: A Ph.D is required for almost any lecturing position at a college now.

JuliusCaesar

Overheal wrote: »

Have someone who did a Major in History teach history. Etc.

Universities typically require you have a Phd in order to profess a subject, correct? Make that a standard across the board.

Possessing a PhD doesn't make you a teacher... it makes you an expert (for a short while) in a tiny part of your field. It also give you a lot of research experience, which helps you help PhD students do theirs. Pedogy is the science of teaching, which secondary teachers do in their PGDipEd. Most, not all, 3rd level teachers aka lecturers (or professors in the US) will have PhDs; all of them will have at least a Masters.

Secondary teachers are required to have a degree in the subject that they teach, with a PGDip Ed on top of that.

Hank_Jones

Overheal wrote: »

Mmmmmm.......- In fairness, Ireland is often cited as the Model for the public smoking ban.

We may have been the first in Europe to adopt it, but we were just copying the Americans.

California, Florida and New York had all implemented smoking bans before we ever did.

We were really swayed by New York banning smoking in 2003.
This ban drove our government to follow suit.
We certainly weren't leading the way...

Donkey Oaty

Hank_Jones wrote: »

We may have been the first in Europe to adopt it, but we were just copying the Americans.

California, Florida and New York had all implemented smoking bans before we ever did.

And the Americans were just copying what Ottoman Sultan Murad IV did in 17th century Istanbul.

I bet the Finnish kids would have known that.

DublinWriter

If you really want to improve the Irish educational system, then ban 'Peig' tomorrow and then all the kids will be into it.

Honestly, Peig Sawers did more to destroy the Irish language in thirty years than the British ever managed with three-hundred years of penal laws.

Capt'n Midnight

Isn't something like 85% of spending on education here on teachers wager ?

Just means that it going to massively increase the bill.

What are class sizes in Finland ?


We need to pump money into primary education , since you get the most value there.

Capt'n Midnight

My name is URL wrote: »

Teachers should be qualified experts in whatever subject they're teaching too.. not just able to apply a generic syllabus

on http://www.teachingcouncil.ie/ you can download the current list of recognised post-primary qualifications and subject criteria.

bonerm

Finland. Greatest country on Earth it would seem.

They even kicked USSR's arse in WW2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tali-Ihantala

Donkey Oaty

Good article here from 2008 in the Sunday Business Post about the lessons Ireland might learn from the Finnish Education system.


http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2008/11/09/story37394.asp

There was one thing I found very surprising - in Finland, society trusts teachers and schools and there are no annual national tests or inspector systems.

E.T.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Isn't something like 85% of spending on education here on teachers wager ?

Just means that it going to massively increase the bill.

What are class sizes in Finland ?


We need to pump money into primary education , since you get the most value there.

I'd love to see your reference for that 85% "fact" - can't find anything remotely like it on the web.

K-9

Amhran Nua wrote: »

They used to do that, it worked out pretty well in terms of gearing students up for science and engineering courses. The problem was it got insanely difficult towards the end, so much so that university level maths students would have a hard time with it (as I recall). Not sure why that happened.

Heres another few ideas:

I think we could definetely learn a lot from the Finnish system however - I particularly like the idea of a second teacher in the classroom (tutor or trainee teacher maybe?)

I remember that, Jaysus Honours Maths was tough.

I'd love to see trainee teachers in the classroom, helping out. Nurses do it in the Health System. Can't see why not.

K-9

E.T. wrote: »

I'd love to see your reference for that 85% "fact" - can't find anything remotely like it on the web.

Think it is around 70%, quite high internationally.

aDeener

Dionysus wrote: »

Just came across a BBC article, accompanied by two videos, which examines why Finland has the most successful education system in the world today.

The Finnish system would easily be classed as "alternative" or "radical" by Irish standards: no school uniforms; students on first name terms with teachers (the gaelscoileanna being the Irish exception in this regard); very few hours spent in school; students start school at 7 years of age; all teachers must do a 300 credit teacher training degree, which includes a masters and takes about five years; there is no distinction between primary and secondary schools; no streaming/students of all abilities are kept in the same classroom; fundamental belief that no child can be left behind; and, the bit I am most amazed by, an extra teacher in each class going around helping the weaker students (i.e. they put the financial resources behind their "no child left behind" philosophy. It's not just a nice-sounding ideal in a Department of Education speech).

The emphasis in the Finnish system is on languages, maths and science subjects and large Finnish companies such as Nokia play an active role in supporting this emphasis. Finland has a population of 5.3 million people so in size it's not a million kilometres away from our own.

Here's the BBC article:

Why do Finland's schools get the best results?


And more on Finland's education system:

Education in Finland

Education key to economic survival

Finland and Ireland, no. 1 and no 15 respectively in the OECD rankings in 2007

---

Would you pay more taxes for Ireland to have an education system of the same standard as Finland's? Would you support a school culture which has the informal and relaxed culture which marks Finland's school system? What would you see as a negative consequence if our education system moved in this direction? In what other ways do you think our system could become better?

No but it is about a million people

CrazyRabbit

Of the Finns I work with, I consider most of them to be very well educated & with excellent self discipline. Whatever they are doing, it works.

aDeener

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Someone who knows what they're teaching as opposed to someone who played full forward for Kerry in an all-Ireland.

absolutely agreed kieran donaghy isnt a teacher and thus should never be let try and teach in a school :pac: although you are probably trying to imply paul galvin here. are you saying he is not adequately qualified?