Why did God Create Us?

Twin-go

First I'll nail my colours to the mast, I am Athiest. I was raised Catholic. during my teenage years became Agnostic. In the last 5-7 years after doing a lot of thinking and research I realised I was in fact Athiest.

Now that is out of the way,
I would like you to explain why you think we were created by a God?
What is our pourpose?
Why did God create evil as well as good?
If God does exisit why does he just not come out and show us who he is?
Why does there have to be the smoke and mirrors around religion and faith?

I cannot answer any of these questions and they in part reinforce my non belief. If you can answer them, I am truly interested in your replies.

Thank you,

Twin-go

PDN

Twin-go wrote: »

I would like you to explain why you think we were created by a God?

I think there is little chance of finite puny beings like ourselves fully understanding why an omnipotent, omniscient God does what he does. There is as much chance of that as there is of a mosquito that crawls across my computer screen understanding why my fingers are tapping my keyboard.

However, the Bible gives us a few clues. The Book of Ephesians tells us that we are the pinnacle of God's creation and are to show forth His glory for all eternity.

What is our pourpose?

Our purpose is to enjoy God and to love and glorify Him.

Why did God create evil as well as good?

I don't believe evil has actual existence - no more than does silence (the absence of noise), cold (the absence of heat), darkness (the absence of light) or slowness (the absence of motion).

God created good, but he gave us a free will, because without a free will love cannot exist. Love is the most precious thing in the world.

Once we have a free will to choose to love (love cannot be programmed or enforced) then, by definition, we have a choice to reject the good. Such rejection lessens good, producing what we know as evil.

If God does exisit why does he just not come out and show us who he is?

He did, and we crucified him.

Why does there have to be the smoke and mirrors around religion and faith?

I don't think there are smooke and mirrors, except where man chooses to distort the revelation God has given us.

What does need to be understood is that God was not interested in teaching us equations - but He wants to have a relationship with us. Relationships (eg a marriage) are built upon emotions, upon trust, upon shared stories, upon poetry etc. So God's revelation to us is in the form of a relationship - which irritates the hell out of those poor souls who demand that God should speak to us like a scientific text book.

Hagar

The Book of Ephesians tells us that we are the pinnacle of God's creation and are to show forth His glory for all eternity.

Does that mean there is no greater inteligent life-form anywhere in the vast universe that God created? Could they not be the pinnacle of creation? Or is God precluded from creating similar/better life-forms elsewhere?

Our purpose is to enjoy God and to love and glorify Him.

Isn't that a very selfish reason to create something, just so they can worship, adore. glorify you? Or maybe God was lonely, a human trait.

Canis Lupus

PDN wrote: »

However, the Bible gives us a few clues. The Book of Ephesians tells us that we are the pinnacle of God's creation and are to show forth His glory for all eternity.

To be frank I think I'm great but I simply can't see humans being the pinnacle of creation for an omnipotent being. I mean where are my wings? Why can't I shoot laser beams out of my eyes? Why can't humans cure themselves of AIDS? And lets not forget to include the likes of Peter Andre etc.

Fanny Cradock

PDN wrote: »

I
Our purpose is to enjoy God and to love and glorify Him.

I would also add to this his desire for us to share and play an active role (a type of stewardship) in his creation.

69 wrote: »

Isn't that a very selfish reason to create something, just so they can worship, adore. glorify you? Or maybe God was lonely, a human trait.

I love the way you use a human trait to accuse God of having a human trait

Hagar

I did it purposely, aren't we made in his likeness? We didn't lick it of the ground. He must have been lonely first.

PDN

69 wrote: »

Does that mean there is no greater inteligent life-form anywhere in the vast universe that God created? Could they not be the pinnacle of creation? Or is God precluded from creating similar/better life-forms elsewhere?

God is not precluded from doing what he wants to do. But if He has chosen us to be the pinnacle, as the Bible appears to suggest, then He has the right to do so.

There may well be more intelligent life forms in the universe. I don't know. But intelligence is probably not the only measure that matters. I'm sure there were Nazis that were more intelligent than Martin Luther King - but MLK is IMHO greater than any super-intelligent doctor who experimented on concentration camp victims.

Isn't that a very selfish reason to create something, just so they can worship, adore. glorify you? Or maybe God was lonely, a human trait.

It's only selfish if you measure God by human categories.

Which is similar to the mosquito on my computer screen thinking how stupid I am to keep tapping my fingers on this keyboard instead of doing much more noble things like flying around and sucking blood.

Fanny Cradock

69 wrote: »

I did it purposely, aren't we made in his likeness? We didn't lick it of the ground. He must have been lonely first.

That must be it. Any time an artist creates something it is out of loneliness. There is no other reason.

Hagar

Very bad attempt to sidestep the issue. If you are claiming that art and beauty came from God and expect me to accept that then I will, if you accept that loneliness and sorrow also came from God.

Fanny Cradock

I'm not side stepping any issue. I'm also not interested in playing some childish divine attribute swap game with you. Believe whatever you want to believe.

Twin-go

Thanks PDN for your honest reply.

PDN wrote: »

I think there is little chance of finite puny beings like ourselves fully understanding why an omnipotent, omniscient God does what he does. There is as much chance of that as there is of a mosquito that crawls across my computer screen understanding why my fingers are tapping my keyboard.

Maybe, but you're intitiled to try to understand. Why do YOU think he created us?

However, the Bible gives us a few clues. The Book of Ephesians tells us that we are the pinnacle of God's creation and are to show forth His glory for all eternity.

The bible tells us lots of other things too. I cannot relate much in the bible to modern times. It is an imperfect book.

Our purpose is to enjoy God and to love and glorify Him.

I'm sorry but, this sounds too much like a master - slave relationship for me.

I don't believe evil has actual existence - no more than does silence (the absence of noise), cold (the absence of heat), darkness (the absence of light) or slowness (the absence of motion).

I'm sure all these can be explained by Science. Slowness is still motion. Coldness is still measuable as heat. Darkness is only the absences of visible light. Silence is a degree of noise. Evil can be measured by actions. It can be a physical force, mental tourture etc.

God created good, but he gave us a free will, because without a free will love cannot exist. Love is the most precious thing in the world.

I would say life trumps love. You could love for someone to be dead. Life is more precious and all creatures can experience life. No all can experience the chemical reaction that is love.

Once we have a free will to choose to love (love cannot be programmed or enforced) then, by definition, we have a choice to reject the good. Such rejection lessens good, producing what we know as evil.

I think a killer could still love his daughter. Its not as black and white as you say.

He did, and we crucified him.

There where many men like Jesus at the time. No proof (for me) that he was God. Why can he not show himself now? I am open to been convinced of his existance. Any one of my five sences will do.

I don't think there are smooke and mirrors, except where man chooses to distort the revelation God has given us.

But the church has been distorted in many was in the last 2000 years. It probably bares little resemblence to the church in the 1st century.

What does need to be understood is that God was not interested in teaching us equations - but He wants to have a relationship with us. Relationships (eg a marriage) are built upon emotions, upon trust, upon shared stories, upon poetry etc. So God's revelation to us is in the form of a relationship - which irritates the hell out of those poor souls who demand that God should speak to us like a scientific text book.

I could do with a Sighting, a Physical touch, a Taste, a smell or a Sound.
Any other relationship involves at least one of the above.

JimiTime

Twin-go wrote: »

I would like you to explain why you think we were created by a God?

God has not revealed in a concise, 'I did it because' way, why he created earth etc in the first placee. However, we can hazard a few educated guesses. Why does an artist create art? Maybe he enjoys creating, and being a being of love, he probably takes great joy in other loving beings. Maybe the universe is his 'art' to put it in a very limited analagous finite human term.

What is our pourpose?

Well initially, I seem to recall our purpose in Genesis was to look after the earth. We seemed to be given the purpose of stewardship over his creation. He obviously wanted us to feel joy and happiness and Love etc also, due to the fact he did not make us automatonic robot gardeners.

Why did God create evil as well as good?

What PDN said.

If God does exisit why does he just not come out and show us who he is?

He did, does and has, but I know what you are saying. Why doesn't he simply have this big throne in the middle of the sky to show us all kind of thing. The truth is, I don't know. Its a huge theological question. Maybe someone who has thought about this aspect would be better suited to answering it. Its not something I've really pondered myself too much, as I've never needed the whole thrown in the sky type of thing.

Twin-go

PDN wrote: »

There may well be more intelligent life forms in the universe. I don't know. But intelligence is probably not the only measure that matters. I'm sure there were Nazis that were more intelligent than Martin Luther King - but MLK is IMHO greater than any super-intelligent doctor who experimented on concentration camp victims.

Come on now PDN - Godwins Law and only 7 posts in....:(

StealthRolex

69 wrote: »

Very bad attempt to sidestep the issue. If you are claiming that art and beauty came from God and expect me to accept that then I will, if you accept that loneliness and sorrow also came from God.

Adam was lonely and God recognized that and provided him with a wife.

Loneliness was banished... temporarily

Satan saw they were happy and had the company of God and was jealous.

Satan manipulated their fall from grace by encouraging them to eat of the Tree of Knowledge, which contained the knowledge of good and evil.

Loneliness returned. Along with Sorrow.

Freewill and the knowledge of evil gave us the world in which we live in today.

What I want to know is why didn't God scrape it all and start over again with a new Adam and Eve, or the same Adam and Eve with no memories of the serpent and ban Satan from the Garden of Eden.

Brain melting stuff - but it is said that He works in mysterious ways and He has a plan.

I would guess that the plan is on a need to know basis.

PDN

Twin-go wrote: »

Come on now PDN - Godwins Law and only 7 posts in....:(

Godwin was an ass and his law does not run in this forum.

You can't ask why evil exists and then say, "Oh no, you can't cite the biggest example of evil in history because some geek called Godwin says you can't."

Twin-go

PDN wrote: »

Godwin was an ass and his law does not run in this forum.

You can't ask why evil exists and then say, "Oh no, you can't cite the biggest example of evil in history because some geek called Godwin says you can't."

But according to you the Nazi's were not evil they just lacked goodness

PDN wrote: »

I don't believe evil has actual existence - no more than does silence (the absence of noise), cold (the absence of heat), darkness (the absence of light) or slowness (the absence of motion).

And, I did not ask why evil exists, I asked why would a God create it?

Fanny Cradock

Can science measure evil?

JimiTime

Twin-go wrote: »

But according to you the Nazi's were not evil they just lacked goodness

You should re-read what PDN said relating to what evil is.

And, I did not ask why evil exists, I asked why would a God create it?

As above.

PDN

Twin-go wrote: »

But according to you the Nazi's were not evil they just lacked goodness

Make your mind up. Do you want us to discuss your questions or do you want to troll?

Twin-go

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Can science measure evil?

You can witness the acts. You can say one crime is more evil than another but, it is subjective and ultimitly an emotion.

StealthRolex

Twin-go wrote: »

And, I did not ask why evil exists, I asked why would a God create it?

Why do you think God created evil.

Evil came into being through the free-will actions of an angel who lost control of his emotions and turned bad.

God created Light - before that there was darkness
God created sound - before that there was silence

If the absence of light is dark, and the absence of sound is silence then in the absence of Good there is Evil.

Put it another way - evil can only exist in those who reject God's Light

Fanny Cradock

OK, I'll try again. Is it fair to say that science can't measure evil?

StealthRolex

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Can science measure evil?

Yes, if it can measure Good.

marty1985

69 wrote: »

Does that mean there is no greater inteligent life-form anywhere in the vast universe that God created? Could they not be the pinnacle of creation? Or is God precluded from creating similar/better life-forms elsewhere?




Isn't that a very selfish reason to create something, just so they can worship, adore. glorify you? Or maybe God was lonely, a human trait.

I don't know much, and I don't often add to these debates although I enjoy reading them, but I agree with the bible's teachings of being thankful and giving praise, because it teaches you humility and if you practiced this you would find yourself appreciating the life you have. Which seems like a good enough reason to give thanks.

It also teaches us that we are a very small part of this world, although for a long time I was convinced it was revolving around me.

Twin-go

PDN wrote: »

Make your mind up. Do you want us to discuss your questions or do you want to troll?

I am discussing your answers to my questions. Just because I see holes in your aguments and call you on it does not meen I am trolling. That word is used too much on this forum. When the questions get a little hard = "stop trolling".

I believe there is both good and evil in this world. Evil exists because we have flaws as an animal. If you believe God created us it follows on that God created those flaws. Why would he create something so imperfect? Is God himself imperfect. If so that goes against christain teachings.

komodosp

Is it true that God is infinitely powerful? Infinitely wise and intelligent? as I was taught in school?
If so, then no matter how complex and time consuming managing the universe is (not that it seems he does anything) we must only occupy but an infitesmal proportion of his time and effort. What does he do in the rest of the time? What did he do before he created the universe? (And before he was preparing hell for people who asked too many questions).

StealthRolex

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

OK, I'll try again. Is it fair to say that science can't measure evil?

No. Evil is the subject of scientific research, albeit a little known area of study. I'm not sure that too many people want it known that they have a Ph.D in Evil.

It may be semantic but all study is science as science is knowledge.

Twin-go

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

OK, I'll try again. Is it fair to say that science can't measure evil?

No more than it can measure good.

StealthRolex

komodosp wrote: »

Is it true that God is infinitely powerful?

Yes

Infinitely wise and intelligent? as I was taught in school?

Yes

If so, then no matter how complex and time consuming managing the universe is (not that it seems he does anything) we must only occupy but an infitesmal proportion of his time and effort. What does he do in the rest of the time?

We don't know but if you're really really, and I mean really good, you might get to ask Him some day.

Sorry - the real answer is that it's a mystery and it is doubtful that our human brains could cope with the answer.

What did he do before he created the universe? (And before he was preparing hell for people who asked too many questions).

Again, it's a mystery that we cannot fathom due to the nature of infinity and the premise that God never began but always was and always is and always will be.

Oh, and Hell isn't for people who ask too many questions. But it might be for people who think they have all the answers ;-)

JimiTime

marty1985 wrote: »

I don't know much, and I don't often add to these debates although I enjoy reading them, but I agree with the bible's teachings of being thankful and giving praise, because it teaches you humility and if you practiced this you would find yourself appreciating the life you have. Which seems like a good enough reason to give thanks.

It also teaches us that we are a very small part of this world, although for a long time I was convinced it was revolving around me.

Just thought I'd say that I thought that that was a very wise answer. fair play.

Fanny Cradock

Twin-go wrote: »

No more than it can measure good.

You are really not answering my question. I want clarification on your statement "I'm sure all these can be explained by Science". How can evil (and thereby good) be explained by science? How can science comment on morality?

(BTW, science is not a proper noun.)

StealthRolex

Twin-go wrote: »

No more than it can measure good.

Can science measure altruism?

Twin-go

StealthRolex wrote: »

Why do you think God created evil.

Evil came into being through the free-will actions of an angel who lost control of his emotions and turned bad.

God created Light - before that there was darkness
God created sound - before that there was silence

If the absence of light is dark, and the absence of sound is silence then in the absence of Good there is Evil.

Put it another way - evil can only exist in those who reject God's Light

I don't think god created anything.

People do evil things for different reasons:
A chemical imbalence which affects their behaivour
Pack mentality (Nazi Germany).
Desperation - Survival instinct.

What light did God create? There are many types.
What sound did God create? Again, there are many types.

Soul Winner

69 wrote: »

He must have been lonely first.

That's not a biblical revelation. Genesis 1:1 says: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

The word translated God in this verse is Elohim (אֱלֹה֑ים) in the Hebrew. It is the plural form of El which is usually translated God. The English should read: "In the beginning Gods created the heaven and the earth." That is what its saying in the original like it or lump it.

Strong's exhaustive concordance:

angels, exceeding, God, very great, mighty

Plural of 'elowahh; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative -- angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty. see HEBREW 'elowahh

Here's the Hebrew of Genesis 1:1:

בְּרֵאש֖ית בָּר֣א אֱלֹה֑ים א֥ת הַשָּׁמ֖יִם וְא֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ׃

So whatever the reason that God created Adam it wasn't because He was lonely.

Fanny Cradock

komodosp wrote: »

Is it true that God is infinitely powerful? Infinitely wise and intelligent? as I was taught in school?
If so, then no matter how complex and time consuming managing the universe is (not that it seems he does anything) we must only occupy but an infitesmal proportion of his time and effort. What does he do in the rest of the time? What did he do before he created the universe? (And before he was preparing hell for people who asked too many questions).

Why are you talking about time in relation to an atemporal being? There was no before the universe because time came into existence with the universe.

Soul Winner

StealthRolex wrote: »

Can science measure altruism?

Also, verifiability, can the philosophy which under girds the scientific method of verifiability be verified using the scientific method? :pac:

StealthRolex

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

You are really not answering my question. I want clarification on your statement "I'm sure all these can be explained by Science". How can evil (and thereby good) be explained by science? How can science comment on morality?

(BTW, science is not a proper noun.)

There are many things science or scientists can not yet answer. However, rest assured there are scientists working on these questions.

Can I suggest a subscription to "New Scientist"? The topics of good, evil and all points of human behaviour in between are reported on from time to time. They've even examined the nature of evil in the non-human animal kingdom.

The argument or contention that science cannot explain good or evil, or comment on morality could be construed to be fallacious.

Most scientists who study these areas of behaviour, both human and animal, tend to use the terms altruism and selfishness and measure them accordingly.

So the answer to your other questions is that yes there are experiments that can measure altruistic and selfish behaviour and therefore you can measure good and evil.

Twin-go

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

You are really not answering my question. I want clarification on your statement "I'm sure all these can be explained by Science". How can evil (and thereby good) be explained by science? How can science comment on morality?

(BTW, science is not a proper noun.)

I am no Scientist but, studies of the brain will show how it reacts in certain situations. This could be used as a measure of evil when compared to how it reacts when doing something good.

Does science need to comment on morality?

StealthRolex

Soul Winner wrote: »

Also, verifiability, can the philosophy which under girds the scientific method of verifiability be verified using the scientific method? :pac:

Yes. As long as you employ the scientific method in the design of your experiment with sound reasoning.

Fanny Cradock

StealthRolex wrote: »

There are many things science or scientists can not yet answer. However, rest assured there are scientists working on these questions.

Can I suggest a subscription to "New Scientist"? The topics of good, evil and all points of human behaviour in between are reported on from time to time. They've even examined the nature of evil in the non-human animal kingdom.

The argument or contention that science cannot explain good or evil, or comment on morality could be construed to be fallacious.

Most scientists who study these areas of behaviour, both human and animal, tend to use the terms altruism and selfishness and measure them accordingly.

So the answer to your other questions is that yes there are experiments that can measure altruistic and selfish behaviour and therefore you can measure good and evil.

I don't mean to be rude, StealthRolex. But I was hoping that Twin-go would answer. Also, why do you assume I'm asking my questions from ignorance?

StealthRolex

Twin-go wrote: »

I don't think god created anything.

People do evil things for different reasons:
A chemical imbalence which affects their behaivour
Pack mentality (Nazi Germany).
Desperation - Survival instinct.

What light did God create? There are many types.
What sound did God create? Again, there are many types.

Twin-go - named after that horrible car I hope not - your very first post asked the question "Why did God create evil as well as good?"

I believe I have provided my answer to that question. You seem to have side stepped it.

People may do evil things for many reasons - some of which are medical and can be due to brain injury as well as chemical imbalance. This is not in dispute.
There are also people who do evil things because they want to. They know it is wrong but they still want to do it and they do it anyway.

An argument that suggests that evil is a result of pathology sounds like someone is trying to justify evil.

To argue that pack mentality is the reason behind the behavior that occurred in Nazi Germany is almost a suggestion that it would have happened with or without Hitler.
Pack mentality was certainly employed as a method of getting the SS to do their jobs but it was not the start of the regime.

Desperation and survival instinct is not an argument for evil. It is an argument for the commission of an act that outside of a desperation or survival requirement could be deemed to be evil.
If I kill someone out of self defense or in the defense of my family or country is it not evil. If I kill someone because I disagree with their philosophy it is evil.

As for light and sound, He created it all.

Fanny Cradock

Twin-go wrote: »

I am no Scientist but, studies of the brain will show how it reacts in certain situations. This could be used as a measure of evil when compared to how it reacts when doing something good.

Does science need to comment on morality?

and BTW according to the Encarta Dictionary, Science is a noun.

You made a fairly categorical statement about what science can tell us about morality. In doing so I believe you conflate a possible naturalistic explanation with a scientific one. So while science may yet give us definitive answers on why altruism arose in our species, it can't say whether it is good or bad to sleep with your neighbours wife.

(Yes, I know that science is a noun. However, the point I was trying to make is that it isn't capitalised unless it is at the beginning of a sentence. Proper noun =/= common noun. Forget I said anything)

StealthRolex

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I don't mean to be rude, StealthRolex. But I was hoping that Twin-go would answer. Also, why do you assume I'm asking my questions from ignorance?

My apologies Fanny, I think I got my threads crossed as it's getting a little busy here. Hence the contention of ignorance was misdirected.

Twin-go

StealthRolex wrote: »

Twin-go - named after that horrible car I hope not - your very first post asked the question "Why did God create evil as well as good?"

I believe I have provided my answer to that question. You seem to have side stepped it..

Not called after the car:D
Did not mean to sidestep your answer. And thank you for it.

People may do evil things for many reasons - some of which are medical and can be due to brain injury as well as chemical imbalance. This is not in dispute.
There are also people who do evil things because they want to. They know it is wrong but they still want to do it and they do it anyway.

An argument that suggests that evil is a result of pathology sounds like someone is trying to justify evil.

I'm not trying to justify evil, just acknoledge its existance.

To argue that pack mentality is the reason behind the behavior that occurred in Nazi Germany is almost a suggestion that it would have happened with or without Hitler.
Pack mentality was certainly employed as a method of getting the SS to do their jobs but it was not the start of the regime.

I was trying to saw people commited seriously evil act because of a pack mentality. But, your point is noted

Desperation and survival instinct is not an argument for evil. It is an argument for the commission of an act that outside of a desperation or survival requirement could be deemed to be evil.
If I kill someone out of self defense or in the defense of my family or country is it not evil. If I kill someone because I disagree with their philosophy it is evil.

I withdraw this portion of my arguement.

As for light and sound, He created it all

No proof of this bar a really old book.

Twin-go

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

You made a fairly categorical statement about what science can tell us about morality. In doing so I believe you conflate a possible naturalistic explanation with a scientific one. So while science may yet give us definitive answers on why altruism arose in our species, it can't say whether it is good or bad to sleep with your neighbours wife.

Can God/Religion tell us if it is good or bad to sleep with our neighbours wife?

StealthRolex

Twin-go wrote: »

Does science need to comment on morality?

Yes. Where else do atheists turn to to find a moral compass?

For those of us who have religion for want of a better description we have a moral guide, for example in the Christian and Jewish worlds we have the Ten Commandments, and for Christians we have the example of Christ Himself.

For those who do not have such a resource the questions then become issues of ethics.

So, where a horny Christian might debate the morals and sinfulness of sleeping with their partner before marriage or engaging the services of a prostitute the atheist must debate the ethics of sex in a casual relationship or enjoying the services of a professional who may or may not be engaging in such behavior out of free will.

Fanny Cradock

StealthRolex wrote: »

My apologies Fanny, I think I got my threads crossed as it's getting a little busy here. Hence the contention of ignorance was misdirected.

No worries. My reply wasn't intended as snotty. I realise that it may have read that way.

StormWarrior

PDN wrote: »

God created good, but he gave us a free will, because without a free will love cannot exist. Love is the most precious thing in the world.

Once we have a free will to choose to love (love cannot be programmed or enforced) then, by definition, we have a choice to reject the good.

How to we have free will to decide whether to love someone? You either love them or you don't. It's not a conscious decision or a choice.

StealthRolex

Twin-go wrote: »

Not called after the car:D
Did not mean to sidestep your answer. And thank you for it.

No worries - but I spotted something that's been niggling.

Your question "Why did God create evil as well as good?" implies God created good.

Well, He didn't. God is good. So God created neither good nor evil.

Good exists because God exists, for those of us who believe in God, and evil exists because there are those in Gods creation that reject or avoid good.

So, if I may turn the table a bit - in an Atheistic world why does good exist?

Twin-go

StealthRolex wrote: »

Yes. Where else do atheists turn to to find a moral compass?

For those of us who have religion for want of a better description we have a moral guide, for example in the Christian and Jewish worlds we have the Ten Commandments, and for Christians we have the example of Christ Himself.

For those who do not have such a resource the questions then become issues of ethics.

So, where a horny Christian might debate the morals and sinfulness of sleeping with their partner before marriage or engaging the services of a prostitute the atheist must debate the ethics of sex in a casual relationship or enjoying the services of a professional who may or may not be engaging in such behavior out of free will.

So without God there would be no morals?

Are ethics just as strong a barometer for human behavior as morals?

Only difference is the religious have the added treat of hell hanging over them. For those that only stop themselves doing wrong because the chance of eternal damnation, its pretty sad.

This is covered well in both Richard Dawkins -The God Delusion and Christopher Hitchins - God is not Great.

Twin-go

StealthRolex wrote: »

No worries - but I spotted something that's been niggling.

Your question "Why did God create evil as well as good?" implies God created good.

Well, He didn't. God is good. So God created neither good nor evil.

Good exists because God exists, for those of us who believe in God, and evil exists because there are those in Gods creation that reject or avoid good.

So, if I may turn the table a bit - in an Atheistic world why does good exist?

I cannot and will not speak for all Atheists but from my own point of view:

It exists because it makes us feel good. When I go and do my charity work I feel good, when I help an elderly neighbour with some DIY I feel good, if I could prevent somebody from getting hurt I would feel good.

We do not need a God for good to exit. God for me is just a distraction. A Fairy Tale used to explain things when our species was less deveoped. Also it probably developed out of a need to control populations as humans began goup in ever larger numbers. In smaller tribes shame of doing wrong would be a control. Shame was not such a factor in larger populations so all seeing Gods were created. The idea of God(s) then evolved to the monolistic belives of the last 5k -6k years.