Ireland and the IMF

RichardAnd

I dont' know if this has come up before but I've seen it discussed in threads and I thought it would be a good discussion to start.

What would happen if we defaulted on out dept and had to ask the IMF for help? I've heard horror stories but how much is true and how much is simple scare tactics?

I'm also no expert on just what the IMF do with defaulters. Do they take over the country's finances or do they just give guidelines to stick to in order to earn their help?

Discuss...

ei.sdraob

They take the first born of every family and eat their hearts


ok they provide loans to dodgy/hopeless states (check and check) and in return are allowed a certain control of economy in order to get their money back +interest asap

Count Dooku

For private sector, it will be not different then if PS unions win, except retail and state dependant businesses. Unemployment can increase on early stages, but welfare benefits will be reduced, it will force people to take jobs for smaller money
IMF interested only to get money back, but not in destruction of economy as many lefties are trying to present. South Korea is good example
As free bonus, country will get public services reduced to really necessary minimum

RichardAnd

Hmm, that would seem to make sense. But here's another take on it, would the IMF be good or bad for Ireland. It seems to me that they would make the cuts that need to be made without the hassle from union etc.

20Cent

The rioting and burning banks might wipeout "benefits" gained from the IMF.

RichardAnd

20Cent wrote: »

The rioting and burning banks might wipeout "benefits" gained from the IMF.

But how likely is that to really happen? I know humans are, inherently, a violent species but I don't see Irish people doing that on mass.

20Cent

RichardAnd wrote: »

But how likely is that to really happen? I know humans are, inherently, a violent species but I don't see Irish people doing that on mass.

A foreign entity comes in and takes over our economy!!
I should hope there would be rioting.

Permabear

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Count Dooku

20Cent wrote: »

A foreign entity comes in and takes over our economy!!
I should hope there would be rioting.

Too late to complain
75% of GDP and 90% of export belongs to foreign companies already….

Permabear

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MaceFace

Read a book called Globalisation and its Discontents.

Without a shadow of a doubt, inviting the IMF into Ireland is the worst thing that can happen.

They will lend us money, come in, take over the running of the country, and their only motivation is to get their money back and get Ireland to a position that it doesn't need their help again (at least for a while, as their policies are very short sighted)

They won't think twice about firing half the nurses and cutting the number of beds in hospitals, or increasing schoold class sizes by 20%.

There will be many social problems that will arise out of such a move, so having them run the country will be akin to having Gordon Gekko run the country.

ei.sdraob

20Cent wrote: »

A foreign entity comes in and takes over our economy!!
I should hope there would be rioting.

they dont come in and take over

they are invited in

when no one else is willing to lend money to the country, and in case you haven't checked we need ALOT of money

you can riot, burn, protest, strike it wouldn't make a damn bit off difference when no one wants to touch the state with a long stick

Idbatterim

If they will do what needs to be done, which the government wont! Ill welcome them with open arms, infact let me know when they are coming and I can give them a lift from airport to goverment buildings! (should save us a few euro)

ei.sdraob

MaceFace wrote: »

Read a book called Globalisation and its Discontents.

Without a shadow of a doubt, inviting the IMF into Ireland is the worst thing that can happen.

They will lend us money, come in, take over the running of the country, and their only motivation is to get their money back and get Ireland to a position that it doesn't need their help again (at least for a while, as their policies are very short sighted)

They won't think twice about firing half the nurses and cutting the number of beds in hospitals, or increasing schoold class sizes by 20%.

There will be many social problems that will arise out of such a move, so having them run the country will be akin to having Gordon Gekko run the country.

allowing Fianna Fail and their buddy bankers, unions and developers to continue to rape the country

is the worst thing that could did happen to Ireland

getting the IMF in in starting to look like the best possible option out of a bunch of bad options as each day passes

Riskymove

Idbatterim wrote: »

If they will do what needs to be done, which the government wont! Ill welcome them with open arms, infact let me know when they are coming and I can give them a lift from airport to goverment buildings! (should save us a few euro)

the problem is that people view them with rose-tinted glasses and that the IMF will do what they would like see done..wihtout thinking too much about it

as a poster says above it could end up in a serious reduction in some important services such as education, health, infrastructure etc and not in a constructive way

Permabear

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Permabear

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Idbatterim

Before we just go raising taxes, I have to ask myself are we getting good value for money for what we currently pay and the answer is no. Far too much waste, overstaffing and inefficiency. This is why I have a problem paying more tax, it will just retain the status quo!

Riskymove

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

well my point is that the IMF may not just do what people would like to see (e.g. a pay cut) but may also do other things that affects services that they have not considered.

Count Dooku

MaceFace wrote: »

They won't think twice about firing half the nurses and cutting the number of beds in hospitals, or increasing schoold class sizes by 20%.

It is true that they will fire half of nurses, because Ireland has too many of them, but it will be unions and PS management, who will shut down hospitals

http://www.oecd.org/document/16/0,3343,en_2649_34631_2085200_1_1_1_1,00.html

2007, Practising nurses, Density per 1 000 population (head counts)

7.37 Austria
9.02 Canada
8.01 Czech Republic
7.73 b France
9.94 Germany
6.12 Hungary
14.00 Iceland
15.50 Ireland
7.03 Italy
4.16 Korea
2.35 Mexico
8.69 Netherlands
9.93 New Zealand
5.18 Poland
5.11 Portugal
7.54 Spain
14.89 Switzerland
2.01 Turkey
10.02 United Kingdom
10.57 United States

Riskymove

Idbatterim wrote: »

Before we just go raising taxes, I have to ask myself are we getting good value for money for what we currently pay and the answer is no. Far too much waste, overstaffing and inefficiency. This is why I have a problem paying more tax, it will just retain the status quo!

the IMF are just as likely to seek re-structuring of taxes as much as public sector, especially given our current system

ei.sdraob

Riskymove wrote: »

as a poster says above it could end up in a serious reduction in some important services such as education, health, infrastructure etc and not in a constructive way

well its obvious that neither the government has the balls (they are populist after all)
nor the unions have the cop on
to provide a viable alternative to rescuing the country from IMF (and ECB) involvement
if anything they are continuing to piss away any hope for recovery

Riskymove wrote: »

the IMF are just as likely to seek re-structuring of taxes as much as public sector, especially given our current system

bring it on

Idbatterim

The largest justification for rising salaries during the boom years was the public v private sector pay debate and the cost of putting a roof over ones head, well there is an answer to that with the properties NAMA hold, reduce drastically the cost of buying and renting homes and hence follow on with a reduction in wages across society.

Riskymove

Idbatterim wrote: »

The largest justification for rising salaries during the boom years was the public v private sector pay debate and the cost of putting a roof over ones head, well there is an answer to that with the properties NAMA hold, reduce drastically the cost of buying and renting homes and hence follow on with a reduction in wages across society.

I think your overlooking that many bought houses at high prices with large mortgages!! they dont change because house prices come down

Taxipete29

ei.sdraob wrote: »

well its obvious that neither the government has the balls (they are populist after all)
nor the unions have the cop on
to provide a viable alternative to rescuing the country from IMF (and ECB) involvement
if anything they are continuing to piss away any hope for recovery



bring it on

So you would be happy if they came in and raised the Corporation Tax??

Riskymove

ei.sdraob wrote: »

bring it on

well, if you are that anxious to pay more tax i am sure revenue will take a voluntary contribution

Idbatterim

Riskymove, I did think of that, they could lower the higher and lower rates of tax or with the money they raise from selling or letting out nama properties, or subsidise the mortgage interest to an extent! It kind of takes away from the "moral hazard" argument though. The whole thing is so complex to properly work it out would take quite a while!

ei.sdraob

Taxipete29 wrote: »

So you would be happy if they came in and raised the Corporation Tax??

if anything the IMF would likely to reduce it

wiki wrote:

Countries are often advised to lower their corporate tax rate.

raising it wont make them any money anyway


so once again, bring it on

ei.sdraob

Riskymove wrote: »

well, if you are that anxious to pay more tax i am sure revenue will take a voluntary contribution

i already pay a **** load in taxes, it be the people who dont pay anything that will be brought into the net

i dont mind paying taxes knowing that the waste in public sector and welfare will be dealt with, i do mind paying taxes and have it being pissed away

Riskymove

ei.sdraob wrote: »

i already pay a **** load in taxes, it be the people who dont pay anything that will be brought into the net

i agree but obviously lowering bands also increases the amount the rest of us pay as well

ei.sdraob

Riskymove wrote: »

i agree but obviously lowering bands also increases the amount the rest of us pay as well

see the second part of my comment

we will be paying higher taxes one way or another thanks to Banks and Unions

i would feel better paying taxes knowing that the economy is being put on right track, not the current situation where its being squandered away on banks and "entitlements"

Arsenal1986

Is this argument not completly and utterly moot, as we have seen with Greece as a member of the EU and the single currency its impossible for the IMF to be 'invited' in. Also we are very far away from needing them at this stage, the NTMA are having no problem getting credit on the markets, and at decent interest.

ei.sdraob

Arsenal1986 wrote: »

Is this argument not completly and utterly moot, as we have seen with Greece as a member of the EU and the single currency its impossible for the IMF to be 'invited' in. Also we are very far away from needing them at this stage, the NTMA are having no problem getting credit on the markets, and at decent interest.

jebus! you havent been following the news?

The IMF and ECB are going into Greece 50/50

except no money has materialised from the EU side of things as its all hot air (and the markets woken up to that)

and the rescue package is way too small

Ireland is right behind, we are lucky that investors are distracted with Greece now and "they" bought our deception of "severe cuts" (which have been reversed in some cases) which the unions want to reverse completely (and then of course there is the recent banking fiasco)

ardmacha

we will be paying higher taxes one way or another thanks to Banks and Unions

Everyone will be paying higher taxes because of banks for sure and because of the decline in mismanaged private sector businesses that no longer pay taxes. You may believe that unions have caused inefficiency, but they have agreed to reduced pay which currently reduces the need for taxes, while banks require more and more.

ei.sdraob

ardmacha wrote: »

You may believe that unions have caused inefficiency, but they have agreed to reduced pay which currently reduces the need for taxes, while banks require more and more.

they did?

Idbatterim

Idbatterim wrote: »

The largest justification for rising salaries during the boom years was the public v private sector pay debate and the cost of putting a roof over ones head, well there is an answer to that with the properties NAMA hold, reduce drastically the cost of buying and renting homes and hence follow on with a reduction in wages across society.

Thats not what Lenihans plan is at all at all, that lamp thinks he can put a floor under property prices then tell everyone prices are at a bottom and people will start buying again and low and behold the taxes we got from buying and selling houses will start flowing back into the Govt coffers. Yes he is that stupid, everything he has said points to this

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/lenihan-says-house-prices-now-at-bottom-2124724.html

Lenihan says house prices now at bottom
'Confidence will rebuild, as up to now people were holding back'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWlz1IKWfw4

anyway reducing the price of NAMA properties means the taxpayer makes up the loss on the loan. We cant win with NAMA.

Anyone following Greece - ECB holding a conference today, their spread rose rapidly today default looks very close

http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=27373&start=255

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601010&sid=aeUsu9NpR5eY

Greece may default on its debt as early as this year without “extraordinary” financial assistance from the European Union and International Monetary Fund

ei.sdraob

Deleted User wrote: »

Anyone following Greece - ECB holding a conference today, their spread rose rapidly today default looks very close

yep should be interesting since were next in line

Dirk Gently

1. IMF praises celtic tiger,

2. IMF holds up the Irish economy (even in 2007) as the flagship model

3. IMF praises Irish government economic polices

4. ohh shit

5. Call the IMF to sort out the problem model economy they so much praised and promoted.

Arsenal1986

ei.sdraob wrote: »

jebus! you havent been following the news?

The IMF and ECB are going into Greece 50/50

except no money has materialised from the EU side of things as its all hot air (and the markets woken up to that)

and the rescue package is way too small

Ireland is right behind, we are lucky that investors are distracted with Greece now and "they" bought our deception of "severe cuts" (which have been reversed in some cases) which the unions want to reverse completely (and then of course there is the recent banking fiasco)

Ah, apologies, had been up until recently!Cheers for the link!

Count Dooku

clown bag wrote: »

1. IMF praises celtic tiger,

2. IMF holds up the Irish economy (even in 2007) as the flagship model

3. IMF praises Irish government economic polices

4. ohh shit

5. Call the IMF to sort out the problem model economy they so much praised and promoted.

BTW, IMF already owe us 2 Bn
IMF to borrow €2bn from Ireland for new framework

Head The Wall

Count Dooku wrote: »

BTW, IMF already owe us 2 Bn
IMF to borrow €2bn from Ireland for new framework

I'd class it as deposit for services rendered in the future

rightwingdub

I'd be absolutely delighted if the IMF came in and took over the Irish economy, Ireland needs a good kick up the arse especially where welfare payments are concerened.

If the IMF ever came into Ireland I can see the following happening.

1) Public sector pay cuts of at least 30% plus at least 50,000 compulsory redundancies.
2) Social welfare cuts of at least 30%, It would encourage people to take up modestly paid jobs.
3) Property taxes galore.
4) Mass privatisations of semi state companies, something I'd strongly welcome.
5) The low paid would be taxed as well which needs to happen.

All in all increased taxes and massive taxes would be brutally implemented in Ireland combined with privatisation.

zonad

They took yer jerbs!

Permabear

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dRNk SAnTA

What an immature society we are to have so many people actually wishing for the IMF to come in.

ei.sdraob

dRNk SAnTA wrote: »

What an immature society we are to have so many people actually wishing for the IMF to come in.

immature?

more like realising that the government will not do what it takes to put this country on right track, instead they continue their policy of destroying the country in order to remain in power

rightwingdub

dRNk SAnTA wrote: »

What an immature society we are to have so many people actually wishing for the IMF to come in.

Its a sad reflection of the fact that most people have absolutely no confidence in the political establishment in trying to resolve the economic crisis that a lot of people are practically praying that the IMF come in and administer a brutal dose of financial shock therapy on the Irish economy.

Not immature, just realistic.

Count Dooku

dRNk SAnTA wrote: »

What an immature society we are to have so many people actually wishing for the IMF to come in.

If people can choose only between populist(FG/LP) or ultra-populist(FF) government, only IMF can take responsibility for all tough decisions...

Permabear

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RichardAnd

rightwingdub wrote: »

I'd be absolutely delighted if the IMF came in and took over the Irish economy, Ireland needs a good kick up the arse especially where welfare payments are concerened.

If the IMF ever came into Ireland I can see the following happening.

1) Public sector pay cuts of at least 30% plus at least 50,000 compulsory redundancies.
2) Social welfare cuts of at least 30%, It would encourage people to take up modestly paid jobs.
3) Property taxes galore.
4) Mass privatisations of semi state companies, something I'd strongly welcome.
5) The low paid would be taxed as well which needs to happen.

All in all increased taxes and massive taxes would be brutally implemented in Ireland combined with privatisation.

There's nothing in that list that I really find surprising. You could sack 50k PS workers tomorrow and it would have probably no effect in many places. I'm not a PS hater, my mother is a PS worker but I'm just being realistic.

As for the welfare cuts, I would welcome it. I was amazed at how little welfare was cut in the last budget. I know a few people who have turned down jobs who are on the dole simply because they were "below their skill level". Lower "scratcher" payments would get alot of egos blunts and people out earning their keep.

ei.sdraob

donegalfella wrote: »

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2006 figures from Revenue (most recent available)

82,718 incomes being taxed 100k or above out of a workforce of 2,208,100 taxable incomes.
So 3.75% of earners.

the above includes jointly accessed incomes....


yes lets tax the high earners, that will solve all our problems....