God's omnisience vs freedom

PDN

monosharp wrote: »

I didn't say that.

I think you probably did, but I'm happy to accept that you didn't mean to do so. So let's try again.

I said god knows everything we will ever do by creating us this way. I don't mean he knows everything we will ever do because he created us, he just plainly and simply knows everything we will ever do anyways.

Yes, God looks at the 'you' He has created, and He sees everything you do.

Strictly speaking from His perspective He doesn't see everything "we will ever do" because there is no future for Him. He sees you doing everything which, from your perspective, you will ever do.

God knows that if he creates human beings and their decision making process (X), that in 2010 there will be a boards user called monosharp who doesn't believe in christianity.

Ah no, you've just taken a small, but crucial, leap of logic by introducing counterfactuals into the equation. To an eternal God there is no 'if'.

For example, God cannot see what would happen if He were to create monosharp as a twin of PDN's (perish the thought!) because that is not actually what happened. A counterfactual, or a "what if", does not actually exist, so it is not true or real. Omniscience means knowing everything that is real or that exists. Omniscience does not extend to knowing stuff that that has no reality or existence - that would be to talk in nonsensical categories.

God can only see what happens when He creates monosharp as a rather annoying atheist with a bee in his bonnet about Korean Christians, because that is the only monosharp that exists. God cannot see what would happen with a counterfactual monosharp-twin-of-PDN who has no existence or reality. The only way an omniscient God could know everything about such a monosharp would be by creating him and observing his actions from the standpoint of Eternity.

God also knows that if he creates human beings with a slightly different decision making process (Y) that in 2010 monosharp will be a christian.

No, God cannot know that, because such a being as the monosharp you describe does not exist. You are trying to give 'omniscience' a nonsensical definition of knowing stuff that isn't actually true or real.

Upon what knowledge ?

The knowledge that the programmer has of his desired outcome.

In your analogy the programmer knows the outcome, and that knowledge determines the actions of the program. That is not what happpens with God's knowledge. Your actions determine God's knowledge of those actions, not vice versa.

- I think your suggesting that god can create something (freewill) of which god does not know the result. Which goes against one of your own arguments.

No, I'm not suggesting that at all, and I don't think anything I've said comes close to suggesting any such thing. God created your freewill, and God can see the things you freely do as a result of your freewill.

Well you have just described god creating something where the result is unknown to him. Can god not know something, even if god wishes to not know it ?

No, I haven't described any such thing.

What I've said is that the only things God can't know the results of are counterfactuals - things that He doesn't create and which therefore don't exist.

As a technical question (but one that is totally irrelevant to our discussion and likely to make you confuse yourself down another rabbit hole) yes, God can choose to shield His knowledge and prevent Himself from knowing stuff. The one example I can think of would be in the self-limitation or kenosis involved in the Incarnation of God the Son as Jesus Christ. But that is irrelevant to our present discussion.

Well clearly you are using a different meaning from the dictionary or you'd see the logic in the arguments presented.

I'm certainly not going to accept lectures on dictionary defintions from someone who has posted about arbitrary decisions being made after much discussion and consideration!

I think I know the English language well enough to be able to able to understand the meaning of words.

God designed us, yes or no ?
God designed our decision making process, yes or no ?
God (always) has known everything, yes or no ?

Yes
Yes
Yes, from your perspective. It would be more accurate to say God knows everything - since "always has known" is speaking of time from our finite perspective.

If god designed us AND god designed our decision making process AND god knew when he created our decision making process every decision that would ever result from that process, then how has god NOT decided everything for us ?

......

PDN, my argument has NOTHING to do with time. Any time references you see are a result of the constraints of the English language or your own preconception of what my argument is.

My argument has nothing to do with time and my argument only works for an omniscient, omnipotent god who created us.

Stop contradicting yourself. Your argument has everything to do with time.
Your argument only appears to have force because you use the future tense instead of the present or past tense.

Since you say that your argument has nothing to do with time, let's rephrase it with different tenses.

If god designed us AND god designed our decision making process AND god now knows every decision that we made as a result from that process, then how has god NOT decided everything for us ?

The same way that the designer of the lottery machine designed the machine, and can see the numbers on the TV screen that were chosen in Saturday's lottery draw, but he did not decide that those numbers would be drawn.

Your argument has everything to do with time. Therefore you are committing the same fundamental error as Wicknight. You are, however, compounding your error by introducing counterfactuals into the equation - thus trying to make omniscience include knowledge of things that aren't real and don't exist.

God designed men with a very high sex drive, god knew when he did that, all the results from that design. Some results from this high sex drive is rape.

Not really, but if I point out the real causes of rape (desire to exercise power over women) then we go down another of your irrelevant rabbit holes, don't we?

If god designed men with a lesser sex drive, god knew when he did that, all the results from that design. Some results from this lower sex drive is lower cases of rape.

Now we're into counterfactuals again. God cannot know all the results of something that doesn't actually exist. God didn't design men with a lesser sex drive, therefore God cannot know how men would exercise their free will in a non-existent situation.

How can I choose to do something (X), which my creator KNEW when he designed me, I would never choose to do ?

Argument from time and tense again. (We need an emoticon that portrays a bored tapping of the fingers).

God knows you won't choose to do something because He sees your choices. If you don't choose to do it then He can't know it.

God KNEW that if he created me slightly differently then I would 'choose' to do X. But he didn't design me differently, he designed me 'this way'

More counterfactuals. God didn't create you slightly differently, therefore there exists no slightly different you to make choices, therefore God cannot see those choices that don't actually exist, therefore God cannot know them.


Look, I haven't got the time to spend hours posting replies to where you commit the same logical fallacies again and again.

Nor have I time to respond to the likes of:

And didn't give a reason why.

when I clearly pointed out the reason why your analogy was poorly chosen as being because you are making the decision contingent upon the knowledge, not vice versa.

monosharp

I'm going to concentrate on what I think is the most important part of your reply because its getting quite long and repetitive (both of us)

But let me just clarify once more. I realise I am using 'tenses' in my argument but thats simply the constraints of our language and our conception of reality. So just to reiterate once more.

No my argument has nothing to do with time.

PDN wrote: »

The same way that the designer of the lottery machine designed the machine, and can see the numbers on the TV screen that were chosen in Saturday's lottery draw, but he did not decide that those numbers would be drawn.

PDN you are making the same old mistake again.

The man who designed the lotto machine is not omniscient, so when he designed the lotto machine with X specs he doesn't know that on the 12th January 2014 monosharp will win the lotto and buy a tropical island filled with topless Korean women, booze and cigarettes.

God IS (supposed to be) omniscient, so when he designs us with X specs he knows that on the 12th of January 2014 (not saying time is linear here) monosharp wins the lotto and buys previously stated paradise destination.

Lets put it another way. Imagine if you will an omniscient infinite lotto machine designer. If he is omniscient then he knows about every single microscopic defect in the machine. He knows every microscopic groove in the lotto balls. He knows the exact weight, the exact power, the exact gravity, the exact physics that can possibly effect the machine at every point in time. He knows the most microscopic and minuscule factors effecting the machines operation.

i.e if he is omniscient, he designs the machine knowing what results the machine gives.

If you know everything, nothing is random.

Look, I haven't got the time to spend hours posting replies to where you commit the same logical fallacies again and again.

Yet I have pointed out that you are completely wrong to think my argument is based on time. I have stated twice now that I am using the tenses simply because of the constraints of our mutual language of communication.