Cork - Limerick Rail Link

Son of Stupido

Now before ye all go shouting that there is one already, any thoughts on the old direct line from Charleville to Limerick?

A quick scan of google maps shows pretty much the entire route still surviving and not built on. Certainly the loop into limerick station would be a handy link.

Perhaps this could be a Galway - Limerick - Cork service?

sonyair

It would be great to reopen it and be able to hop on at raheen/dooradoyle and go to cork without the use of limerick junction

Sponge Bob

and Brian Guckian support you Son!

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/88689

Reckons it will cost €116m and that at bubble prices.

Son of Stupido

Sponge Bob wrote: »

and Brian Guckian support you Son!

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/88689

Reckons it will cost €116m and that at bubble prices.

erm.....not sure 'bout his figures.

Money aside, I would of thought a 3 city link was a better WRC then Limerick-Galway-Sligo option.

Zoney

One obstacle is that the existing line out of Limerick is right alongside the current M20/N21 at the same elevation, so arranging a new link south would be expensive on that single point alone (many other obstacles).

*However* given that a new N21 is to bypass Adare to the south and the M20 alignment will also be altered to a new direct curve south (rebuild of the current N20/M20/N21 junction) there would be scope to arrange the new motorway build on a gradient to allow a new rail alignment underneath. It's a non-runner for now, but an underbridge on the planned M20 for a rail alignment would be a good provision for future decades though. I'd also like to see the land of the old Cork direct curve out of Limerick station kept in state control for any possible future rail alignment (it's basically still free - the building/yard on the other side of the road is unoccupied at present afaik - it should be bought and held onto)

I think commerce between Limerick and Cork first has to be increased by providing a more reasonable *road* route. Then once traffic is higher than at present, public transport options have a greater cachement. Road routes the likes of the current N20, the former N6, N9 and to a degree the N11 (Arklow-Rathnew) actively stifle commerce, resulting in less demand for bus or rail too. The traffic facilitated by the Shannon Tunnel, M18 and Galway-Limerick railway will likely also improve the potential in future decades for a direct Limerick-Cork route.

It should be possible to have issues such as this in consideration even if they are long term and lower priority plans. Just because there are more relevant and direct transport concerns should not mean these aren't considered - for example due to aspects such as consideration in the planning of the new M20 sections.

Sponge Bob

Son of Stupido wrote: »

erm.....not sure 'bout his figures.

What have you got against Brian Guckian ???

Money aside, I would of thought a 3 city link was a better WRC then Limerick-Galway-Sligo option.

Heresy. The Western Rail Corridor is for the west and this _thing_ is different being in Munster and all. Fr Micheal will gladly exorcise you while Colman holds you down for saying these things.

And Zoney may be wrong, I think the current M20 is built on that line at Patrickwell

L1011

Does Guckian also support my proposal to reopen the Letterkenny & Burtonport Extension Railway?

Cool Mo D

Surely any money spent on this would be better off doubling the line to Limerick Junction, and rebuilding the station to grade separate the Limerick - Waterford line from Dublin - Cork. This would allow Limerick - Cork services unhindered by single track, speed up main-line Limerick - Dublin and Cork - Dublin routes, and give a proper Limerick - Waterford, with 4-way connections possible in all directions.

dowlingm

Let us not speak of B**** G******.

Looking at the path of the old railway between Patrickswell, Croom and Charleville junction on OSI map it was hardly bullet straight so I have to wonder what speeds were. Doubling Limerick-LJ and building the LJ East Platform ASAP to improve platform vacancies is the way to go.

Zoney

Sponge Bob wrote: »

And Zoney may be wrong, I think the current M20 is built on that line at Patrickwell

Perhaps I wasn't entirely clear. What I mean is that the Limerick-Foynes line is parallel and right next to the current M20/N21 and at the same grade. It is technically the current N21 that crosses the former alignment of Limerick-Cork direct (just west of the current N20/M20/N21 junction at Patrickswell).

Sponge Bob

What is actually wrong with Brian Guckians €116m estimate then ??

rainbowdash

Limerick-Cork and Limerick-Waterford are pretty crap as roads go in this country. Its an ideal opportunity for Irish Rail to win some market as proper interurban motorways are years away. The tracks are already there and in use.

Diverting LK-Dub trains via Nenagh would free up the junction path as it waits to be double tracked.

The Word Is Bor

Let me be the rain on this particular parade.
First up from Charleville northwards a lot of the railway, if not all of it, has been taken up and the lands returned to the original farmers. Secondly, the M20 uses a section of the old alignment around Ballygeale.

Son of Stupido

surely you would be talking a similar amount of cash to upgrade the limerick junction- cork route (as suggested by some) then opening the old one?

Anyway I am sure IE would use the dublin-cork intercity as an excuse to have a crap service (line contention etc etc)

Either way it would be good to have a good service between the two cities without having to wait an hour to get a connection at Limerick (Tipperary???) f***ing junction!

DWCommuter

The Word Is Bor wrote: »

Let me be the rain on this particular parade.
First up from Charleville northwards a lot of the railway, if not all of it, has been taken up and the lands returned to the original farmers. Secondly, the M20 uses a section of the old alignment around Ballygeale.

And the direct curve out of Limerick station was built on, ironically by CIE for a social club.

Son of Stupido

DWCommuter wrote: »

And the direct curve out of Limerick station was built on, ironically by CIE for a social club.

well thats that so....no chance of it going ahead.

Zoney

It's only one small building - easily taken out. There's also the turning yard for BÉ buses but this will be redundant anyway when BÉ move to the northeast side of the railway station. Google maps link - crossed the road on the undeveloped line furthest to the right (you can see the single building on the south side of the road). The embankment for the bridge is still present on the north side of Carey's Road.

Certainly while there is still no private development on the old direct curve alignment, it should be kept in state hands and preserved against the prospect of future use (would be very useful even just for any commuter service to Dooradoyle, Raheen, Patrickswell and Adare).

merlante

Wouldn't it make more sense to run a Waterford-Galway route with timely transfers to Cork at Limerick junction?

Son of Stupido

merlante wrote: »

Wouldn't it make more sense to run a Waterford-Galway route with timely transfers to Cork at Limerick junction?

But then you are getting into service issues and we all know IE are not exactly shining lights in this department

Zoney

There's no doubt, if Cork-Dublin is upgraded to higher speeds (and it does need to be, and probably *eventually* will be) it makes this proposition less relevant (even from a long-term perspective), and an upgrade to Limerick-LJ, with more reliable timekeeping, would allow fast Limerick-Cork and Limerick-Dublin services as a side benefit of upgrading Dublin-Cork.

merlante: at best, if Limerick-LJ was upgraded you could have *additional* trains for direct service morning and evening (much as Limk-Dub has and Limk-Cork could have), but otherwise it is most useful to use the Limerick shuttle concept. In addition to Limerick passengers connecting to Cork/Dublin/Waterford, the passengers arriving on those trains can at the same time transfer for Limerick.

dowlingm

We're in a time when existing infrastructure has to be sweated, not new stuff built. A track path unused and a train idling in a station is money bleeding from the system.

Building the WRC killed Waterford-Rosslare (to an extent) and a Cork-Limerick line would be the death of other lines because there just isn't enough capital funding to go around). Firing the dead wood (and hopefully that doesn't mean everyone) in IE operations is a lot cheaper than building entire new lines hither and yon.

T Corolla

The line should be considered for re-opening. Does anyone know whether the track bed is still in place. I feel in fairness the restoration of rail services should come before introducing a new motorway.

corktina

a lot of the trackbed is under the Croom bypass I think and the N21 cuts across the formation at Patriickswell. the line (as said above) is blocked at the Limerick end... abit of a non starter really,

Carawaystick

T Corolla wrote: »

The line should be considered for re-opening. Does anyone know whether the track bed is still in place. I feel in fairness the restoration of rail services should come before introducing a new motorway.

What!

A motorway linking Cork and Limerick would allow private motorists get between Limerick and Cork and from beyond each city to where they want to go faster and safer than the existing crap road.

It would also allow private coach operators compete and provide a decent public transport service along a western spine of the country from Galway to Cork, at times that suit their passengers. It would probably be cheaper and faster than a rail link, to the end user: the customer.

Bus Éireann run an hourly 24hr service between Dublin and Belfast. IÉ have only 8 trains a day and the first one will only get you into Belfast at 9:45, unless their incompetence in maintaining the line or dealing with reports of the line falling into the sea are feiced up and the line is closed.

Similarly, the first train from Dublin to Cork will get you in at the business friendly time of 9:53, and at 173 minutes, I'd imagine it's slower than driving, leaving Heuston at the same time

Cool Mo D

Much better that reopening that old line, would be double tracking Limerick to Limerick Junction, rebuilding Limerick Junction to grade separate the lines, add in direct curves for Cork - Limerick, Dublin - Limerick, and Dublin - Waterford, and removing speed restrictions.

Then you could have all the direct Dublin - Limerick trains you want. It could be integrated with the current Limerick Junction shuttle - with a Limerick - Cork train meeting a Cork - Dublin train and vice versa.

Or else you could have a Galway - Waterford train meeting Cork Dublin and Dublin - Cork trains simultaneously. New railway works that bring knock on benefits to already important lines are the best.

T Corolla

Carawaystick wrote: »

What!

A motorway linking Cork and Limerick would allow private motorists get between Limerick and Cork and from beyond each city to where they want to go faster and safer than the existing crap road.

It would also allow private coach operators compete and provide a decent public transport service along a western spine of the country from Galway to Cork, at times that suit their passengers. It would probably be cheaper and faster than a rail link, to the end user: the customer.

Bus Éireann run an hourly 24hr service between Dublin and Belfast. IÉ have only 8 trains a day and the first one will only get you into Belfast at 9:45, unless their incompetence in maintaining the line or dealing with reports of the line falling into the sea are feiced up and the line is closed.

Similarly, the first train from Dublin to Cork will get you in at the business friendly time of 9:53, and at 173 minutes, I'd imagine it's slower than driving, leaving Heuston at the same time

In fairness there is not enough passengers considering you can get a one way ticket from Dublin-Cork at 8am for 10 Euro. To justify a service earlier that 7am Hueston to Cork you would need better rail connections to Hueston. If you are working in Cork and you wanted to get the train in you would probably live in Mallow or Midelton or any of the stations along the route which has good commuter services. Today you can definetly get from Dublin to Cork in 2.5hrs by car so the train has a bit of work to catch up on but IR have put alot into the Dublin-Cork line in the last number of years and are presently still upgrading the speed restriction.

highlydebased

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Much better that reopening that old line, would be double tracking Limerick to Limerick Junction, rebuilding Limerick Junction to grade separate the lines, add in direct curves for Cork - Limerick, Dublin - Limerick, and Dublin - Waterford, and removing speed restrictions.

Then you could have all the direct Dublin - Limerick trains you want. It could be integrated with the current Limerick Junction shuttle - with a Limerick - Cork train meeting a Cork - Dublin train and vice versa.

Or else you could have a Galway - Waterford train meeting Cork Dublin and Dublin - Cork trains simultaneously. New railway works that bring knock on benefits to already important lines are the best.

Well, there is already a direct curve for Limk-Dublin

KC61

To me right now there are far more pressing infrastructural needs than this suggestion. I would think that the focus from a rail infrastructure perspective has got to be on getting speeds increased on the existing lines wherever possible, and I would suggest that this would be best served by the following:

Carry out whatever work is necessary to get the Dublin/Cork line up to full line speed of 100mph for the maximum distance possible
- this will benefit all services to Waterford, Galway/Mayo, Limerick and Tralee.
- it will also mean that "up" and "down" trains will pass at about the same time at Limerick Junction eliminating long layovers for passengers between Limerick and Waterford and enabling a meaningful service to be introduced on that line

- Similarly get the Dublin/Belfast route up to full line speed

On the busier single track routes install dynamic passing loops (i.e. much longer double track sections to allow trains pass while moving rather than waiting in stations) as follows:

Portarlington/Galway line:
- Install dynamic loops east of Tullamore to west of Clara and east of Ballinasloe and west of Woodlawn
- At the very least install a passing loop at Oranmore

Maynooth/Sligo line:
- Extend double track west of Maynooth towards Kilcock,
- Double Killucan to Mullingar
- Install dynamic loops either side of Edgeworthstown and Boyle

Cherryville/Waterford line:
- Install dynamic loops either side of Carlow and Ballyhale (the existing loop near Thomastown)

Limerick/Limerick Junction line:
- Double track the entire route

Mallow/Tralee line:
- Install a dynamic loop in the section between Killarney and Rathmore

Finally work to get rid of the ludicrous array of speed restrictions on the regional routes. The current 25mph restriction from Killonan Junction (outside Limerick) to north of Birdhill on the Nenagh branch despite the line being relaid with CWR (although until recently not stressed) is farcical.

After that is done then maybe look at other options.

cgcsb

here we are folks, a direct Cork-Limerick-Galway service via the old Charleville -Limerick line:

http://www.irishrail.ie/media/2030RailNetworkStrategyReview_21.pdf scroll to page 55

Sponge Bob

For now it is

1. Protect the alignment.....lots built on by roads over the years.This made the Regional Plan so ...good start.
2. Greenway!
3. See what pans out many years hence.

dowlingm

The fact that Cork-Limerick made it into that document is only one of several things that made me shake my head in disbelief at it.

corktina

rather discredits the whole thing doesn't it!

Sponge Bob

Very pie in sky if they are also abandoning the line @ same time eg foynes and cement traffic both.

cgcsb

the document also talks about an airport DART spur (that old chestnut), electrification of the Galway and Cork lines and running Cork and Galway services, via DART underground and the airport spur to Dublin Airport.

invinciblePRSTV

Pie in the sky i know but surely a far more amenable solution then re-opening Charleville - Limerick would be the consolidation of the various services on the WRC - Limerick Jtn - Waterford lines into a single cross country service with Cork connections at Lim Jtn?

Removing LCs and merging services on the Cork - Lim Jtn & the WRC/Lim - Wat lines would do far more for the Munster/western seaboard train services then opening another old line. No doubt there is numerous barriers to such a proposal ever happening.

dowlingm

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Removing LCs and merging services on the Cork - Lim Jtn & the WRC/Lim - Wat lines would do far more for the Munster/western seaboard train services then opening another old line. No doubt there is numerous barriers to such a proposal ever happening.

Irish Rail has never troubled us with the reasons why for instance the first Galway-Limerick couldn't have a driver step into the rear cab from the platform at Limerick, the Galway driver step out and the train blast out of the station as soon as the clock hit the timetabled minute for Waterford and the same for the first train ex Waterford.

--Note this takes no account of other movements, just illustrates an ideal--
Dep Galway 0620 Arr Limerick 0835 (current timetabling)
Dep Limerick 0840 Arr Limerick Junction 0907
Dep Limerick Junction 0910 Arr Waterford 1048

Because of track passing limitations that is actually 21 minutes longer than it could be due to slow running of the Galway-Limerick service.

Dep Waterford 0640 Arr Limerick Junction 0818
Dep Limerick Junction 0820 (currently 0840) Arr Limerick 0847 (currently 0915)
Dep Limerick 0850 Arr Galway 1050

Now the thing to notice there is that if the Limerick-Waterford service was minimally impeded/slaved to the arrival/departure of Dublin or Cork trains it can manage 2h8m station to station. With a proper relay of the track and rationalisation in Waterford that might come down to 2h dead. The current BE 55 time is 2h25min. If you query the IE timetable all of the results are 2h28 or longer and are displayed as requiring a transfer. Even if you wanted to IE won't let you make an online booking. Why would you take the train?

Wild Bill

If we still want to build the M20 then I see no point in wasting money on a new Cork-Limerick railway.

This sort of thinking brought us the useless, pointless Galway - Limerick line running up beside the M18.

pigtown

What if it was built in conjunction with the M20? Or at least buy enough land beside the M20 so it could be built in the future. Would that reduce the costs by much?

corktina

never mind how much it might cost to build it, how much would it lose every year?

Theres no advantage to spending millions on this line when trains could go via Lim Junc AND make connections for the Waterford service (if service is the right word)

total pie in the sky.

cgcsb

Wild Bill wrote: »

If we still want to build the M20 then I see no point in wasting money on a new Cork-Limerick railway.

This sort of thinking brought us the useless, pointless Galway - Limerick line running up beside the M18.

I suppose that the point would be that the max speed on the proposed M20 is 120kph where as, if the route is constructed properly(i.e. not a WRC botch job). Limerick-Cork could be a 50 minute journey, with speeds of 160kph(assuming an upgrade of Charleville-Kent).

Wild Bill

cgcsb wrote: »

I suppose that the point would be that the max speed on the proposed M20 is 120kph where as, if the route is constructed properly(i.e. not a WRC botch job). Limerick-Cork could be a 50 minute journey, with speeds of 160kph(assuming an upgrade of Charleville-Kent).

Perhaps - but given cars actually travel on motorways at 140kph in RL and then add in the travel to stations etc I doubt rail will ever compete.

Could reserve a corridor alongside the motorway I suppose; even if they never build a railway it could serve as a nature corridor

corktina

160k is not fast enough for rail to compete with road.

In any case Limerick to Cork in 50 minutes would imply a non stop journey. I don't believe there are enough through passengers to fill a train and make it viable.

cgcsb

corktina wrote: »

160k is not fast enough for rail to compete with road.

Trains in Ireland don't surpass 160kmh, yet they compete with roads. The Dublin-Cork line accounts for 50% of all journeys between Dublin and Cork, including car bus and air passengers. this 50% figure is pretty poor for our best performing rail line, still it is 'competitive'. On what basis, do you believe 160kph to be uncompetitive?

corktina wrote: »

In any case Limerick to Cork in 50 minutes would imply a non stop journey. I don't believe there are enough through passengers to fill a train and make it viable.

A stop in Mallow can be accommodated within the 50 minutes, this stop would allow Kerry passengers to connect with Cork-Galway services

pigtown

dowlingm wrote: »

The fact that Cork-Limerick made it into that document is only one of several things that made me shake my head in disbelief at it.

corktina wrote: »

I don't believe there are enough through passengers to fill a train and make it viable.

So on the one hand it's assumed that there is no demand for a Cork- Limerick line but when IE do an investigation into it they are criticised. While you were ultimately proved right Corktina, I'd still prefer the proposed line to be ruled out based on investigations rather than assumptions.

corktina

cgcsb wrote: »

Trains in Ireland don't surpass 160kmh, yet they compete with roads. The Dublin-Cork line accounts for 50% of all journeys between Dublin and Cork, including car bus and air passengers. this 50% figure is pretty poor for our best performing rail line, still it is 'competitive'. On what basis, do you believe 160kph to be uncompetitive?

In the UK in the 70s studies showed that for rail to competewith the M4 a crusing speed of 125mph was necessary.160kmax city centre to city centre ( or almost!) cannot compete with 120k door to door.

IEs share is falling rapidly and in any case I seriously doubt your figure of 50% is in any way accurate
(

A stop in Mallow can be accommodated within the 50 minutes, this stop would allow Kerry passengers to connect with Cork-Galway services

are you imagining that Tralee passengers from Limerick will travel via Mallow :eek: I think BE will be a better option and wont need hundreds of millions invested in a rail link!

btw at present Cork to Limerick junction takes just over an hour. How is your 50 minutes going to be acheived?)

corktina

pigtown wrote: »

So on the one hand it's assumed that there is no demand for a Cork- Limerick line but when IE do an investigation into it they are criticised. While you were ultimately proved right Corktina, I'd still prefer the proposed line to be ruled out based on investigations rather than assumptions.

pure common sense rules out a line largly wiped out by road improvements, which was in any case not suitable for high speeds at many points. Common sense tells me that to rebuild it would cost at least as much as the WRC has cost so far (over €100m). Common sense tells me we have no money and even if we did, there is already a line serving Limerick and Charleville which would also have connections for Waterford available if the will was there to make something of it.

Wild Bill

cgcsb wrote: »

btw at present Cork to Limerick junction takes just over an hour. How is your 50 minutes going to be acheived?)

They'll put some 'go fast' stripes on the engine

dowlingm

So let me get this straight - IE don't have to money to make existing lines other than Cork Dublin 100mph, but they have money to rebuild from scratch a 100mph alignment from Charleville to Limerick? Come on folks can we please climb down from the crazy tree? We'll be pounding into Limerick at 100mph past Raheen and then slowing to 5mph at Limerick Yard which will still be in bits?

pigtown - my criticism was mainly that IE was lumping doable projects like upgrading the Navan branch from Drogheda for passenger use or extending the Midleton line to Youghal with items like Charleville-Limerick which doesn't even have an alignment in IE ownership any more. I think that's fair comment, don't you?

pigtown

Corktina
I'm just making the point that I would prefer to have potentially important decisions- be they about infrastructure or economic policy or whatever- made after some thought has gone into them, instead of just assuming that they are unsuitable.

Dowlingm
I get what you mean about the difference in the projects but I don't see an issue with having them both in the same report. Maybe thats just me.

bk

cgcsb wrote: »

The Dublin-Cork line accounts for 50% of all journeys between Dublin and Cork, including car bus and air passengers. this 50% figure is pretty poor for our best performing rail line, still it is 'competitive'.

Not true, it currently stands at:

- 50% car
- 35% train
- 15% bus

But with the introduction of the Cork to Dublin direct non stop bus service from GoBus, it will likely slide to 25% train, 25% bus as it currently is on the Galway to Dublin line.

Wild Bill

bk wrote: »

But with the introduction of the Cork to Dublin direct non stop bus service from GoBus

Which will also have 'go-fast' stripes?