"Digital Rights Management drove me to Piracy"

Overheal

http://consumerist.com/2010/04/insane-pc-game-drm-drove-me-to-piracy.html


An anonymous gamer wrote in to tell us why he felt justified to illegally download a copy of Red Faction: Guerilla: He bought it on one computer but found the DRM locked him out of re-activating the game on his new computer. When customer service couldn't help him, he went rogue.
He writes:

“
I recently bought a copy of the PC game Red Faction Guerrilla. The game installed fine on my system and I played it for a bit until the hard drive it was on bit the dust. I replaced the hard drive and reinstalled the game. However, when you try to launch the game it gives you a DRM check where you have to enter your email address and cd-key and it will then connect to its authentication servers to allow you to play the game.
However, when I tried to enter my info and hit ok, it would come back would a general error saying
"There was a problem activating Red Faction Guerrilla. Could not start activation process."
I tried contacting THQ/Volition the makers/publishers of the game and they could not help and instead told me to contact Games for Windows Live, who apparently runs the online checks as its incorporated into the game with this platform. I spoke to several Windows reps there who knew nothing about how to fix the issue, was hung up on several times, referred back and forth between THQ and then made to run through ridiculous steps to try and fix the issue, and finally told me there's nothing they can do to help.
What I had to do instead is pretty sad considering I paid for a legit copy- I went to a torrent site and downloaded a cracked exe that let me bypass the security check and play the game the online portion of it.
I could have pirated the game from the start but I chose to be honest and try and support these companies. What good did that do? As a result of paying for this game I was treated like garbage from the companies I bought it from who were unwilling and unable to help, and then had to turn to pirates because the DRM installed with the game prevented me from playing it.
What is the point of paying for these games if you get no support from those you purchased it from and can get a better version for free by pirating it? I am in no way advocating piracy because its wrong and is hurting the industry, but the publishers and developers are in turn treating their paying customers like criminals and are just making them turn to piracy instead.
”

How long will it take for these companies to cop the fcuk on and realise we'll pay for it if you don't fight us for it. I don't part with good money to get punched in the face when I try play Splinter Cell or Assassin's Creed. I wouldn't pay good money to have my hair pulled out just so I could play Spore (I'd just go get a haircut..)

VinLieger

I dunno about that. There is ALOT of piracy going on even with games that dont have DRM and has been going on since before DRM.
I dont pirate games an never have, probably since im hoping to eventually be a developer.
However if a game has DRM similar to the recently released crap i simply wont buy it or i will get the console version

SeantheMan

He was right too to download a copy

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

It's funny... instead of finding new ways to get people to buy their goods, these gaming companies are screwing over the legit customer just to get to the pirates. The pirates will always be there, always. The games companies have shot themselves in the foot. It's quite funny to watch actually.

Never again will I buy a game from activision, not because the games are bad, but that they insult my intelligence. They have the cheek to tell me, an avid gamer that their new server system has all the benifits of a dedicated server? They screwed themselves over there. And guess what? The pirates cracked the game anyway.

Steam are doing a good job, they have a bit of cop on, now to get them to lower their prices a little.

gizmo

Overheal wrote: »

How long will it take for these companies to cop the fcuk on and realise we'll pay for it if you don't fight us for it.

About the same length of time it takes users to stop rolling out this tired and flawed argument.

You want to know one of the primary reasons why Ubisoft went to such lengths to introduce DRM? Because one of their biggest games of the last few years, Assassins Creed, was downloaded over one million times in 2007 alone. There was a game with no invasive DRM bundled in, it was just a high profile game which was released well before it's street date and all the cheap ****s out there went and downloaded it. They then had the audacity to whine when they came across hooks in the game which detected they had a pirated copy and wouldn't let them progress. Hooks, may I add, that didn't affect buyers of the retail game when it finally launched. (This may remind some of the rant from Iron Lore) What company wouldn't want to ramp up their efforts to try and reduce that figure?

Now I can already hear the cries from some people, "but one downloaded copy doesn't mean one lost sale!" now I have one very simple reply to this, "Who the **** cares?". What gives people the right to steal a game just because they never intended buying it in the first place? Spoiler: It doesn't. The "try before you buy" argument is also amusing as, for everyone person who does use it, I see 10 people download it because it's free. Again, hardly a valid justification.

Now, at the same time let me be very clear. While I understand Ubisoft's reaction to this, I do not, under any circumstances, agree with their new DRM system. You cannot knowingly penalise your customers for elements out of their control, whether it's their internet connection which goes down or their Ubi's own servers. In the case of the OP, if support really were that unhelpful then I don't blame him for downloading the cracked executable to play it. One the other hand, if that person tells their friend what happened and he goes and downloads the full game straight away then I do blame him as the chances of him being affected by a similar issue aren't exactly high.

As has been highlighted several times on this forum before, there are DRM implementations that are non-intrusive and do the job quite well. As per usual, Steam is probably one of the best examples of this however, as I've also highlighted before, I don't think it's feasible for every publisher to implement a similar system for their titles.

Bodhan

Here's my take. I'm 38, I've lived through all the pirates. Tapes, floppys, cd's and now the internet.
As long as there has been a media to copy there have been pirates, it all started with tape recorders, getting that song off the radio and copying an album.
As long as a game can be copied it will be copied. The problem is PC games are falling down, more and more people are writing games for console only, and those like Ubisoft are putting DRM on their games. Most games for PC loose a fortune in sales to down-loaders.
The best hope we have is a system like Steam, as annoying as it can be its the best game delivery system. The prices are off but they are not set by Valve, they are set by the developer. Its now the best hope we have of good games getting made.

wes

While, I understand piracy is bad, but punishing a paying customer is not the answer, which is what a lot of companies have resorted to. Piracy is no excuse for punishing a paying customer with broken DRM. Personally, I think DRM is just as bad as piracy.

super_furry

Games for Windows Live is an unmitigated disaster. There's a really good feature in the latest edition of Edge about just how bad it is - actually it's online too http://www.edge-online.com/magazine/should-games-for-windows-live-die

gizmo

Bodhan wrote: »

Here's my take. I'm 38, I've lived through all the pirates. Tapes, floppys, cd's and now the internet.
As long as there has been a media to copy there have been pirates, it all started with tape recorders, getting that song off the radio and copying an album.
As long as a game can be copied it will be copied...

Certainly agree with everything you've said, however, I do have one addition to the above piece. Even back when games came on floppy disks, there were many games that came with more primitive forms of DRM. For example, I remember Sam n Max had the costume selection system taken from various pages of the game's manual and the awesome wheel thing that came with the original Monkey Island titles.

What we have now is an issue of escalation. While back then the most common case of pirating was you copying a disc and giving it to your mate, what we now have is one copy being uploaded to the net and being downloaded in huge numbers. With this increase came an escalation in the DRM being developed to protect it and now we're in the unfortunate position where even legitmate customers are being affected by it.

muppetkiller

DRM is what's killing PC Gaming.
I wanted to pick up Silent Hunter 5 recently and read the reviews on Amazon and on the ubisoft forums so decided against it. Basically it requires you to be online at all times in order to play it. Which as you can imagine is nonsense especially if you have it on a laptop and move in and out of coverage while traveling.

I wont be buying any Ubisoft PC games in Future until they remove these DRM measures.

And to gizmo who said that Assasins Creed was downloaded 1,000,000 times ..I'd love to know where they pulled that figure from ? was it xbox or PC ? If I recall the PC version came out months (if not a year) after the xbox version so most pc gamers would not have been bothered with the game. There's lots of people who download games to see if it'll even run on their system (seeing as games like ARMA 2 haven't bothered to test against certain Graphics cards (4800 series) ) ..
The fact that you can't return PC games doesn't help matters either with people trying before they buy. I like the idea of Serial keys via steam which has worked in the past. The only thing that wrecks my head about steam is buying the game in a store leaves you with a large pile of worthless boxes and cd's. Why they can't sell the code on a card like with xbox live points is beyond me. it'll save them money and maybe produce cheaper games for us.

Bodhan

muppetkiller wrote: »

DRM is what's killing PC Gaming.
I wanted to pick up Silent Hunter 5 recently and read the reviews on Amazon and on the ubisoft forums so decided against it. Basically it requires you to be online at all times in order to play it. Which as you can imagine is nonsense especially if you have it on a laptop and move in and out of coverage while traveling.

I wont be buying any Ubisoft PC games in Future until they remove these DRM measures.

And to gizmo who said that Assasins Creed was downloaded 1,000,000 times ..I'd love to know where they pulled that figure from ? was it xbox or PC ? If I recall the PC version came out months (if not a year) after the xbox version so most pc gamers would not have been bothered with the game. There's lots of people who download games to see if it'll even run on their system (seeing as games like ARMA 2 haven't bothered to test against certain Graphics cards (4800 series) ) ..
The fact that you can't return PC games doesn't help matters either with people trying before they buy. I like the idea of Serial keys via steam which has worked in the past. The only thing that wrecks my head about steam is buying the game in a store leaves you with a large pile of worthless boxes and cd's. Why they can't sell the code on a card like with xbox live points is beyond me. it'll save them money and maybe produce cheaper games for us.

I agree that DRM and other measures are crap, they don't help the PC market one bit. I also agree with some of what you say. But I don't think there is one person out there who Try before they buy, they get the pirate game, they play it, they uninstall it. That's it, they don't buy the game after they have played it unless there's something in the game to make them want to move on. Something that unlocks or a patch they can't get so that they HAVE to buy the game. That means we are back to and internet connection or DRM. It's a catch 22, the only try before you buy people are downloading demos. Also there's no I want to see if it runs on my system people either, hours of downloading, install try it out. Oh it works, I'll uninstall it now and go to my local shop and buy a real copy of the game. This never happens.

fitz0

SeantheMan wrote: »

He was right too to download a copy

In fairness he only downloaded a crack, not the full game. I usually download cracks because I just can't be arsed switching discs. I see nothing wrong with cracks but I feel bad about pirating a full game.

sarumite

Its a classic Chicken and Egg scenario....."DRM drove me to piracy" v's "Piracy drove us to use DRM".

Who's right? Who's Wrong? My guess is its 6 of one and Half a dozen of the other.

Gunmonkey

Was gonna comment but gizmo has highlighted exactly how I feel about this. people can bitch and whine about "oh, DRM is evil" but its there because PC gamers are stingy, whiny thieves....or at least the majority are.

As for proof, 90% piracy rate on World of Goo . Granted this was before their "pay what you want" deal that saw a increase in sales but still shows, even if you release a great indie game, no DRM whatsoever, no publishers or anyhting, PC gamers will still go "no, it should be free ya stingy ****s".

gizmo

muppetkiller wrote: »

DRM is what's killing PC Gaming.
I wanted to pick up Silent Hunter 5 recently and read the reviews on Amazon and on the ubisoft forums so decided against it. Basically it requires you to be online at all times in order to play it. Which as you can imagine is nonsense especially if you have it on a laptop and move in and out of coverage while traveling.

I wont be buying any Ubisoft PC games in Future until they remove these DRM measures.

Either will I to be honest however the few people who feel that strongly about it are VASTLY out numbered by those who will pirate it regardless of the included security measures.

muppetkiller wrote: »

And to gizmo who said that Assasins Creed was downloaded 1,000,000 times ..I'd love to know where they pulled that figure from ? was it xbox or PC ? If I recall the PC version came out months (if not a year) after the xbox version so most pc gamers would not have been bothered with the game.

The stats were collated by one of the piracy news sites and were calculated based on figures from the larger public torrent sites. This of course doesn't include private torrent sites or usenet so the figure is far higher in reality.

muppetkiller wrote: »

There's lots of people who download games to see if it'll even run on their system (seeing as games like ARMA 2 haven't bothered to test against certain Graphics cards (4800 series) ) ..

If the card is listed on the box or website for the game then it has been tested, if it hasn't then it's a risk. In cases like these you could just wait to see have others found problems or if they've contacted the developers.

muppetkiller wrote: »

The fact that you can't return PC games doesn't help matters either with people trying before they buy.

A situation which exists due to the ease of piracy whether it's copying a disc or nicking the cd key from the box.

sarumite wrote: »

Its a classic Chicken and Egg scenario....."DRM drove me to piracy" v's "Piracy drove us to use DRM".

Who's right? Who's Wrong? My guess is its 6 of one and Half a dozen of the other.

Ah, that's an easy one. Piracy is wrong. Why? Because if piracy didn't exist or, at the very least, wasn't as widespread, then there wouldn't be a need for such invasive DRM. However, if DRM didn't exist, people would still pirate the hell out of games.

Regarding the types of games that are pirated by the way, don't even bother trying to quantify them. I've seen IGF entries and other indie games pirated, Chime (the XBLA charity game) pirated and even, as has been highlighted before, Stardock/GPG games. There's a publisher/developer who catagorically states that they are against DRM yet still suffered debilitating problems with Demigod at launch due to the sheer number of pirated copies.

Star Lord

Having recently installed Battlefield: Bad Company 2, I quite liked how it handled DRM, you had to choose authentication by having the disk in the drive while playing, or authenticate online. The online authentication way means that it just checks online, and then lets you play. It doesn't cut you off if you lose internet connectivity (I'm looking at you, UBISOFT!!!) so while you still had to register/authenticate the game online, you don't have to be constantly online to play it.

yoyo

While I do feel sympatetic Assasins Creed was pirated "1 million" times, why do Ubi expect pc gamers to pay full whack for a game that came out a year before on the consoles, fair enough I'm not condoning it, but if they want to release the game a year later, don't expect people to like a $60 price tag, I wonder how many sales Ubi have lost With Assasains Creed 2, SH5 and Settlers 7 due to this new drm out of interest?,

Nick

Overheal

Thats another issue is the outrageous pricing model.

But one thing I would like to add on Steam: I was considering buying Chaos Theory over xmas only to sleuth the steam forums and discover the PC version is such a woeful port it wouldnt have been worth my $4.

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&securitytoken=2f40c7ab1d7314b7735a964135df9b593e43ca34&f=383&page=1&pp=25&sort=lastpost&order=desc&daysprune=-1

yoyo

Overheal wrote: »

Thats another issue is the outrageous pricing model.

But one thing I would like to add on Steam: I was considering buying Chaos Theory over xmas only to sleuth the steam forums and discover the PC version is such a woeful port it wouldnt have been worth my $4.

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&securitytoken=2f40c7ab1d7314b7735a964135df9b593e43ca34&f=383&page=1&pp=25&sort=lastpost&order=desc&daysprune=-1

Double Agent was a rubbish port alrite I remember people having huge problems with it, Chaos Theory one I have though was a good port imo, but comes with Starforce, a DRM that is so badly designed it doesnt work in Windows Vista/7 :rolleyes: (And no 64Bit OS allows it to install afaik due to severe security risks), More reasons why DRM is stupid,

Nick

Edit: It appears AC2s DRM is 100% cracked http://bit.ly/d33bEA, Found on Twitter, and Ubis forums are down :rolleyes: so I'm guessing servers are too

marco_polo

I am sure alot of you have read this before (in fact I'd wager I probably first came across it on this forum) but this is a great article on the issue of game piracy.

http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_1.html

In general I have little time for the 'Screw DRM I'm pirating it' argument, however in this particular case since he had a genuine unplayable copy of the game I have alot of sympathy for the guy.

Ultimately though it is just yet another entry in the downloaded game column that Ubisoft and the like can point to as justification for their way OTT DRM systems.

No offense to the poster who said it but , but people who will 'only buy the console version of AC2' because of the DRM make me cry a little inside, that what they want you to do .

hooradiation

yoyo wrote: »

While I do feel sympatetic Assasins Creed was pirated "1 million" times, why do Ubi expect pc gamers to pay full whack for a game that came out a year before on the consoles, fair enough I'm not condoning it, but if they want to release the game a year later, don't expect people to like a $60 price tag, I wonder how many sales Ubi have lost With Assasains Creed 2, SH5 and Settlers 7 due to this new drm out of interest?,

Nick

Surely the only legitimate response if you find the price objectionable is to simply not buy it?

hardly revolutionary thinking, i know, but given the levels of piracy here i think it bears repeating.

gizmo

yoyo wrote: »

While I do feel sympatetic Assasins Creed was pirated "1 million" times, why do Ubi expect pc gamers to pay full whack for a game that came out a year before on the consoles, fair enough I'm not condoning it, but if they want to release the game a year later, don't expect people to like a $60 price tag, I wonder how many sales Ubi have lost With Assasains Creed 2, SH5 and Settlers 7 due to this new drm out of interest?,
Nick

While it was a pain to wait that long, the game was still as impressive (technically at least) as it was when it was released. This was also coupled with the higher quality assets that usually accompany a PC version. To claim it's unfair that it still cost $60 (which, may I add, it didn't as is also typical with PC versions) isn't really valid either as nothing was actually lost between the console and PC versions.

As for lost sales, I'd say the number is large enough but, as I said above, still far less than what they probably lost with Assassins Creed before it was released. A similar point has been made before by many developers that a DRM implementation is considered a success (these days at least) if it remains uncracked for a week or two after retail release.

yoyo

gizmo wrote: »

While it was a pain to wait that long, the game was still as impressive (technically at least) as it was when it was released. This was also coupled with the higher quality assets that usually accompany a PC version. To claim it's unfair that it still cost $60 (which, may I add, it didn't as is also typical with PC versions) isn't really valid either as nothing was actually lost between the console and PC versions.

As for lost sales, I'd say the number is large enough but, as I said above, still far less than what they probably lost with Assassins Creed before it was released. A similar point has been made before by many developers that a DRM implementation is considered a success (these days at least) if it remains uncracked for a week or two after retail release.

Most PC gamers these days have a 360 or/and a PS3 aswell. As Assassins Creed is a platform game designed for consoles, it would make more sense for a pc gamer to get it for another platform, rather than wait for a version in a years time with "higher resolutions". If looking at it money wise a second hand copy of AC would be much much lower than the PC copy at launch, due to it being out a year on the consoles, not to mention the game will more than likely be played with a controller on pc anyways, and Ubi didnt really put much else in the pc version bar higher resolutions which is a good thing but not worth €45 more considering the console version could be selling at around €14.99 second hand, it may be more, I'm honestly not sure but you get the point.

Nick

L31mr0d

before everyone starts rolling out the usual pro/con arguments of piracy, and the morality of it all, you have to understand that it's going no where. People won't change, if you can get something for free and get away with it people will do it.

What the big game developers are doing at the moment is taking a leaf out of the Popes handbook for fighting aids in Africa, and instead of trying to work around the presence of piracy, they are trying to make it so that people choose to abstain from it altogether.

This is moronic. If there are people out there that can figure out how to code DRM, there will be people out there who will be able to reverse engineer it and remove it. All this DRM malarky is doing is breeding uber hackers. The strain of hacker now wants the likes of Ubisoft to wave a red flag in front of them and give them a new challenge. All Ubisoft is doing is growing the piracy scene rather than reducing it. If I had a coding bone left in my body I'd join it myself to figure out how to stop and remove this rubbish that Ubi are putting into their games.

They need to work around it, and like with Apple and iTunes and Valve with Steam work out a system that can co-exist alongside it.

landsleaving

Bodhan wrote: »

the only try before you buy people are downloading demos. Also there's no I want to see if it runs on my system people either, hours of downloading, install try it out. Oh it works, I'll uninstall it now and go to my local shop and buy a real copy of the game. This never happens.

Actually I did just that with Arkham Asylum when I got a new PC. Just wanted to see if it would run because I had no idea if it would. It did. I bought it. Simple.

I'd imagine the majority of pirates wouldn't buy the game anyway, I just don't buy trotting out figures like that for Assassin's Creed. It's gonna be cracked anyway, so DRM is just a waste of time. It's put me right off PC gaming. Very rarely do I play a non-console game anymore. I'm sure I'm missing out on some great stuff, and I was really excited about having a PC that could play the latest games for the first time ever, but it wasn't worth it at all thanks to this kind of rubbish.

I hope they can find some sort of middleground, I do get that the developers and publishers don't want to lose money, but they're going to lose more in the long run with their current strategy.

Maximilian

I still think price is a major factor. Games on Steam etc. are way over priced, considering the lower overheads. Yet, when they have a sale, people buy like crazy. Valve said it themselves.

I don't know how many times I've heard people say they will by this game or that when the price drops, particularly in reference to Steam. Honestly I think a lot of people pirate as a big FU to greedy publishers. the "Looks like $1 = €1 after all" thread on steam has over 7000 posts and has been viewed nearly a million times. People are annoyed.

Overheal

Maximilian wrote: »

I still think price is a major factor. Games on Steam etc. are way over priced, considering the lower overheads. Yet, when they have a sale, people buy like crazy. Valve said it themselves.

I don't know how many times I've heard people say they will by this game or that when the price drops, particularly in reference to Steam. Honestly I think a lot of people pirate as a big FU to greedy publishers. the "Looks like $1 = €1 after all" thread on steam has over 7000 posts and has been viewed nearly a million times. People are annoyed.

Yeah but as an American Consumer (the Domestic Market for most publishers and hence the saner pricing schematic) steam works a treat, the sales are great, and I havent played a pirated game in quite some time.

Only most recently did I download Call of Duty 1. Why? Because I have the Discs, the Box, The Manual, the Key - but the 2nd disc is scratched, and the Installation is corrupted >.<

marco_polo

Maximilian wrote: »

I still think price is a major factor. Games on Steam etc. are way over priced, considering the lower overheads. Yet, when they have a sale, people buy like crazy. Valve said it themselves.

I don't know how many times I've heard people say they will by this game or that when the price drops, particularly in reference to Steam. Honestly I think a lot of people pirate as a big FU to greedy publishers. the "Looks like $1 = €1 after all" thread on steam has over 7000 posts and has been viewed nearly a million times. People are annoyed.

I would love to know why the majority of game publishers on steam seem to be completely oblivious to this rather obvious point. There is a large market out there for PC game sales when consumers do not feel like they are being completely ripped off for the privilege of a digital purchase.

Maximilian

marco_polo wrote: »

I would love to know why the majority of game publishers on steam seem to be completely oblivious to this rather obvious point. There is a large market out there for PC game sales when consumers do not feel like they are being completely ripped off for the privilege of a digital purchase.

It's just pure greed. Stupid limited editions, DLC - all greed. Look at Activision's antics of late. I can think of only one motivation for the shenanigans at IW.

These big publishers only care about milking every last cent out of customers. I don't mind publishers trying to make money but I don't like being screwed. They don't treat their customers with respect. Now with Ubisoft's DRM, they have gone to a new low - actually treating their customers with contempt. How many companies in any industry, force all of their customers to put up with a "feature" that is universally hated by them, while ignoring their complaints.

The world needs more Valve-like companies.

dreamers75

Maximilian wrote: »

I still think price is a major factor. Games on Steam etc. are way over priced, considering the lower overheads. Yet, when they have a sale, people buy like crazy. Valve said it themselves.

Maximilian wrote: »

The world needs more Valve-like companies.

The Blood god does not compute your logic.

Valve games are cheaper in a shop with all the production costs and distribution etc etc.


valve ****ed up other than the steam sales only fanboys buy valves latest games from them on day 1. Its always cheaper to go to a shop and buy it. Its basically doing an Activision and saying FU to your fans.

Gunmonkey

Maximilian wrote: »

It's just pure greed. Stupid limited editions, DLC - all greed. Look at Activision's antics of late. I can think of only one motivation for the shenanigans at IW.

These big publishers only care about milking every last cent out of customers. I don't mind publishers trying to make money but I don't like being screwed. They don't treat their customers with respect. Now with Ubisoft's DRM, they have gone to a new low - actually treating their customers with contempt.

Well...too be blunt...why shouldnt they?? I mean, their customer base (PC gamers) show massive contempt by claiming their work isnt worth their precious precious money, as was shown in the link marco_polo gave that the pirate versions of Ubisofts DRM-free Assassins Creed was over 1 million. They obviously wanted the game, otherwise they wouldnt have pirated it. It wasnt "to try it/demo it" as otherwise there would have been more sales. Now granted ubisofts new strategy is bag-of-cats retarded (they should have had a short grace period in case of internet drop-off, lord knows mine does it incessantly) but there is only two other ways to prevent piracy: make it hard to obtain (like shutting down torrent sites....look how well that worked :rolleyes: ) or have REAL reprecussions for pirating. None of us here would walk into a store and nick stuff as there could be a far stronger security guy at the door or the prospect of CCTV + Gardaí = fun times in jail, same cant be said for digital piracy, since no Torrent site would give out or even track users info/IP address.

The plain and simple reason is that the pirates are greedy too, in that a company has the outright gall to ask them for money in exchange for a product they want!!!!!! Honestly, if someone ever brings up the whole "greedy publisher/developer" argument in a piracy discussion I fall around laughing at the sheer hypocrisy of the statement

dreamers75

My opinion of what to do is simply have 2 versions of the game and make both unplayable unless connected to the net. On the DL version have this game will not be unlocked until XX/XX/XXXX and on the disc version have INTERNET REQUIRED FOR INSTALLATION even if its a single player game.

Thus leaving out an integral part of the game ie the EXE and only allowing download of it on that date. As an extra protection use the YOU CANT OPEN THE DOOR AS IT HAS NO HANDLE type of DRM seen in a few games recently ie ledges in Batman, ledges in Damnation its gay but it works.

Piracy imo only affects a game a week before release and maybe 2 days after, forum monkeys just need to post that its gay/brilliant/gay and post screenshots.

not physically allowing anyone to play the game until release date does actually work.

Sadly non internet peeps suffer maybe offer a post in patch service ala the oul floppy patches

But to summarise stop pirates paying the game in the 5 days before the release and 2 after and i reckon 70% of piracy is stopped. majority of pirates are forum monkeys who just want to say gay/brilliant befor everyone else.

marco_polo

Maximilian wrote: »

It's just pure greed. Stupid limited editions, DLC - all greed. Look at Activision's antics of late. I can think of only one motivation for the shenanigans at IW.

These big publishers only care about milking every last cent out of customers. I don't mind publishers trying to make money but I don't like being screwed. They don't treat their customers with respect. Now with Ubisoft's DRM, they have gone to a new low - actually treating their customers with contempt. How many companies in any industry, force all of their customers to put up with a "feature" that is universally hated by them, while ignoring their complaints.

The world needs more Valve-like companies.

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=22378

Now in general I have alot of time for Valve but I can't say they are immune to the madness. Left4Dead2 was 49.99 last week (seems to be down to 29.99, now its the same price as the original :rolleyes:).

Anyway recently I picked up L4D + L4D2 + the Orange box for a shade over 45 euros on amazon.co.uk, which probably would have been slightly over double that on steam a few weeks ago. Obviously as the publisher they get a cut of that 45, however does it not make more sense to sell it to me directly through steam at a much more competitive rate? And since unlike other third party games, from the POV of my Steam account there is absolutely no difference as to whether it was a retail version or a direct steam version of the valve games that I installed, it makes even less sense. (Of course I realise that you have to factor in that price drops on amazon are cutting into their margin on the game rather than Valves cut, but even still they should be making alot more money off the direct sale)

It certainly flies in the face of statement like this:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=22378

“Last weekend, we decided to do an experiment,” he says, referring to this past weekend’s Left 4 Dead sale, which brought the game down to $24.99 through Steam – sales rose 3000 percent, and revenue far eclipsed the game’s sales during its launch window.

Meanwhile, Newell notes, retail sales did not change at all (full Steam integration allows Valve to monitor retail sales as well) – defeating the assumption that Steam sales cannibalize retail sales.

“One thing that really annoys me is the inefficiency of pricing we have in our industry,” Newell says.

When Valve held its recent holiday sale, titles discounted by 10 percent (the minimum) they saw revenue (not unit) increases of 35 percent. At a 25 percent discount, revenue was up 245 percent.

At 50 percent off, revenue was up 320 percent, and at a 75 percent discount, revenue was up an astonishing 1470 percent. Newell stressed again that those revenue boosts represent actual revenue dollars, and not unit volumes.

cadea

Overheal wrote: »

Thats another issue is the outrageous pricing model.

But one thing I would like to add on Steam: I was considering buying Chaos Theory over xmas only to sleuth the steam forums and discover the PC version is such a woeful port it wouldnt have been worth my $4.

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&securitytoken=2f40c7ab1d7314b7735a964135df9b593e43ca34&f=383&page=1&pp=25&sort=lastpost&order=desc&daysprune=-1

That is not entirely true, are you sure you didn't mean Double Agent? DA is unplayabley bad. I was always a huge fan of the Splinter Cell series, bought them all, Chaos Theory would not work on vista or W7 at all thanks to Starforce, i was so happy to pick it up on steam for that price, a woefull port? really? MW2 and Alien vs Predator and Wolfenstein now they are jokes on PC thanks to being bad ports but Chaos Theory imo stands up as one of the good ones.

Overheal

cadea wrote: »

That is not entirely true, are you sure you didn't mean Double Agent? DA is unplayabley bad. I was always a huge fan of the Splinter Cell series, bought them all, Chaos Theory would not work on vista or W7 at all thanks to Starforce, i was so happy to pick it up on steam for that price, a woefull port? really? MW2 and Alien vs Predator and Wolfenstein now they are jokes on PC thanks to being bad ports but Chaos Theory imo stands up as one of the good ones.

I need help interpreting that.

Which are the ones worth buying on steam for 64-bit W7. I only have Pandora Tomorrow on CD and have played the first one to death.

Chairman Meow

The guy in the OP was actually within his rights to download a copy, if hed already paid for it. Technically, he didnt pirate anything..

Drakar

Technically, when he "downloaded" it from a torrent site, he also potentially uploaded it to a load of people, so even if he owned a licence to play he probably technically did something wrong.

cadea

Overheal wrote: »

I need help interpreting that.

Which are the ones worth buying on steam for 64-bit W7. I only have Pandora Tomorrow on CD and have played the first one to death.

Sorry, few beers involved, Chaos Theory is the best of the series imo, easily worth 4 quid.

Maximilian

Gunmonkey wrote: »

Well...too be blunt...why shouldnt they?? I mean, their customer base (PC gamers) show massive contempt by claiming their work isnt worth their precious precious money, as was shown in the link marco_polo gave that the pirate versions of Ubisofts DRM-free Assassins Creed was over 1 million. They obviously wanted the game, otherwise they wouldnt have pirated it. It wasnt "to try it/demo it" as otherwise there would have been more sales. Now granted ubisofts new strategy is bag-of-cats retarded (they should have had a short grace period in case of internet drop-off, lord knows mine does it incessantly) but there is only two other ways to prevent piracy: make it hard to obtain (like shutting down torrent sites....look how well that worked :rolleyes: ) or have REAL reprecussions for pirating. None of us here would walk into a store and nick stuff as there could be a far stronger security guy at the door or the prospect of CCTV + Gardaí = fun times in jail, same cant be said for digital piracy, since no Torrent site would give out or even track users info/IP address.

The plain and simple reason is that the pirates are greedy too, in that a company has the outright gall to ask them for money in exchange for a product they want!!!!!! Honestly, if someone ever brings up the whole "greedy publisher/developer" argument in a piracy discussion I fall around laughing at the sheer hypocrisy of the statement

I didn't say that pirates weren't greedy also nor did I suggest that publishers shouldn't make money; my point was that the publishers are blatantly ripping off their paying legal customers, with inflated prices (adding 10 euro to the latest COD), limited editions and DLC consisting of content excised from the original game etc - which has a side-effect of driving people to piracy also, simply because they can't afford it or feel the price is completely unfair. I don't think people mind paying a fair price for a good product. Piracy is wrong but every pirate knows that. Unmitigated greed is also wrong, but legal and these publishers seemingly revel in it despite the complaints from their customers.

In short, they want to have their cake and eat it. They want to eliminate piracy while at the same time bleed their customers dry. Does anyone think that they would drop their prices if piracy were to suddenly disappear overnight?

marco_polo wrote: »

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=22378

Now in general I have alot of time for Valve but I can't say they are immune to the madness. Left4Dead2 was 49.99 last week (seems to be down to 29.99, now its the same price as the original :rolleyes:).

Anyway recently I picked up L4D + L4D2 + the Orange box for a shade over 45 euros on amazon.co.uk, which probably would have been slightly over double that on steam a few weeks ago. Obviously as the publisher they get a cut of that 45, however does it not make more sense to sell it to me directly through steam at a much more competitive rate? And since unlike other third party games, from the POV of my Steam account there is absolutely no difference as to whether it was a retail version or a direct steam version of the valve games that I installed, it makes even less sense. (Of course I realise that you have to factor in that price drops on amazon are cutting into their margin on the game rather than Valves cut, but even still they should be making alot more money off the direct sale)

It certainly flies in the face of statement like this:

No they're not immune to it either disappointedly but they're better than most, their games are universally brilliant and they always support their games and encourage modding. I really am happy to pay full whack to Valve. At least I know who is getting the money and that they care about their customers at the end of the day.

yoyo

Overheal wrote: »

I need help interpreting that.

Which are the ones worth buying on steam for 64-bit W7. I only have Pandora Tomorrow on CD and have played the first one to death.

If chaos theory has a Starforce free patch (by Ubi themselves not the cracked version) or it simply uses Steams own protection nowadays it will work on x64 windows, if it still is infected with Starforce it will not, as Starforce drivers fail to work under x64 windows or Vista/7 due to serious security holes in it

Nick

Mantel

dreamers75 wrote: »

valve ****ed up other than the steam sales only fanboys buy valves latest games from them on day 1. Its always cheaper to go to a shop and buy it. Its basically doing an Activision and saying FU to your fans.

It's cheaper to buy from play.com then going to the a shop but people still go to the shop. The only problem? You have to wait, for both. Steam is just an instant (that's not too instant sometimes) gratification system, you see a game, you buy it and play other games or go to work while it downloads. Steam sees day one sales because people are lazy and in some case want the advanced order stuff that comes with it, the carrot of pre-order DLC.

hooradiation

Maximilian wrote: »

I didn't say that pirates weren't greedy also nor did I suggest that publishers shouldn't make money; my point was that the publishers are blatantly ripping off their paying legal customers, with inflated prices (adding 10 euro to the latest COD), limited editions and DLC consisting of content excised from the original game etc - which has a side-effect of driving people to piracy also, simply because they can't afford it or feel the price is completely unfair.

Really? REALLY?
This is the argument that you want to run with?

If you don't like DLC or limited editions or think games in general cost to much, then the only acceptable is DON'T BUY THEM.

And you know what, i can understand children reasoning that if they want something and can't afford it they should take it because they want it, but that shit won't fly as adults.

Games are a luxury item, it's not something you need to survive. You have no intrinsic right to games. Don't like the product that's being offered or can't afford it? Then act like a goddamn adult and just do without.

You can't steal a piece of entertainment and then try to claim the publishers made you do it, it's horseshit.

PogMoThoin

hooradiation wrote: »

Really? REALLY?
This is the argument that you want to run with?

If you don't like DLC or limited editions or think games in general cost to much, then the only acceptable is DON'T BUY THEM.

And you know what, i can understand children reasoning that if they want something and can't afford it they should take it because they want it, but that shit won't fly as adults.

Games are a luxury item, it's not something you need to survive. You have no intrinsic right to games. Don't like the product that's being offered or can't afford it? Then act like a goddamn adult and just do without.

You can't steal a piece of entertainment and then try to claim the publishers made you do it, it's horseshit.

See, we're seeing a shift in direction, it used to always be the way that on pc, the developers made the game and released the tools for the community to run their dedicated servers, modify the game and make extra content. Now the greedy developers aren't releasing the tools and are purposely killing the pc community, giving them full control to charge for petty dlc and extra maps ala console games. Mods and community made content prolong a game and keep people playing for longer, just look at BF2. Developers want to be able to just turn off a game servers (like we've seen) ending support and make customers buy the new version, sometimes pretty soon after release.

Maximilian

hooradiation wrote: »

Really? REALLY?
This is the argument that you want to run with?

If you don't like DLC or limited editions or think games in general cost to much, then the only acceptable is DON'T BUY THEM.

And you know what, i can understand children reasoning that if they want something and can't afford it they should take it because they want it, but that shit won't fly as adults.

Games are a luxury item, it's not something you need to survive. You have no intrinsic right to games. Don't like the product that's being offered or can't afford it? Then act like a goddamn adult and just do without.

You can't steal a piece of entertainment and then try to claim the publishers made you do it, it's horseshit.

I'm not suggesting for a second piracy is justified. I am trying to suggest some reasons why people do pirate. I think you need to read people's posts first before making obnoxious comments.

I agree with you actually.

marco_polo

hooradiation wrote: »

Really? REALLY?
This is the argument that you want to run with?

If you don't like DLC or limited editions or think games in general cost to much, then the only acceptable is DON'T BUY THEM.

And you know what, i can understand children reasoning that if they want something and can't afford it they should take it because they want it, but that shit won't fly as adults.

Games are a luxury item, it's not something you need to survive. You have no intrinsic right to games. Don't like the product that's being offered or can't afford it? Then act like a goddamn adult and just do without.

You can't steal a piece of entertainment and then try to claim the publishers made you do it, it's horseshit.

Explaining the reasons behind people actions does not automatically mean that somebody condones those actions.

Maximilian

PogMoThoin wrote: »

See, we're seeing a shift in direction, it used to always be the way that on pc, the developers made the game and released the tools for the community to run their dedicated servers, modify the game and make extra content. Now the greedy developers aren't releasing the tools and are purposely killing the pc community, giving them full control to charge for petty dlc and extra maps ala console games. Mods and community made content prolong a game and keep people playing for longer, just look at BF2. Developers want to be able to just turn off a game servers (like we've seen) ending support and make customers buy the new version, sometimes pretty soon after release.

I think modding is a victim of it's own success. For a while there, CS was the biggest thing going, and it was completely free. I remember reading somewhere at the time, some guy from EA or the like talking about ways to make money from mods. It was inevitable that the big publishers were going to try and find a way to cash in. Again, Valve take a sensible approach and encourage it, because it gives people a reason to buy the game and it builds a fanbase. Bohemia are good that way too. The Arma mods stuff is just astounding really, better than BI themselves in many ways.

dreamers75

Maximilian wrote: »

I think modding is a victim of it's own success. For a while there, CS was the biggest thing going, and it was completely free. I remember reading somewhere at the time, some guy from EA or the like talking about ways to make money from mods. It was inevitable that the big publishers were going to try and find a way to cash in. Again, Valve take a sensible approach and encourage it, because it gives people a reason to buy the game and it builds a fanbase. Bohemia are good that way too. The Arma mods stuff is just astounding really, better than BI themselves in many ways.

Modding used to be a way to hire talented people ( i was offered a job mapping for MOHAA exp packs ) but now its being thrown to the side for the sale of the maps gimps like me would have made for free.

but on the console you cant map, console is the way forward Ubi and Ea want to go there years after proclaiming they would fail. **** all PC gamers can do other than take the **** in the ass and if your game isnt working due to DRM then get the NOCD its worked before it will work again.

Sucks to be us, altho we prolly have the consoles and do buy the games

hooradiation

Maximilian wrote: »

I'm not suggesting for a second piracy is justified. I am trying to suggest some reasons why people do pirate. I think you need to read people's posts first before making obnoxious comments.

Well if you're going to give a set of reasons as to why piracy people pirate i think it's fair to assume your either agreeing or are sympathetic to the views being put forward unless you make it clear that you're not.

PogMoThoin wrote: »

Now the greedy developers... Developers want to be able to just turn off a game servers

You REALLY need to stop saying that. I'm sure you mean publishers, but if you think any of these decisions come from the developer side you're crazy.

PogMoThoin wrote: »

See, we're seeing a shift in direction, it used to always be the way that on pc, the developers made the game and released the tools for the community to run their dedicated servers, modify the game and make extra content. Now the greedy developers aren't releasing the tools and are purposely killing the pc community, giving them full control to charge for petty dlc and extra maps ala console games. Mods and community made content prolong a game and keep people playing for longer, just look at BF2. Developers want to be able to just turn off a game servers (like we've seen) ending support and make customers buy the new version, sometimes pretty soon after release.

I don't get this attitude.
Firstly, what makes you think you have any kind of right to Mod tools or anything like that?
I understand "that's the way it's always been" but publishers are under no obligation to have the developers spend time and money making these tools fit for public release.

Secondly, if people are willing to pay for DLC then why shouldn't publishers pursue that? Like it or not there is clearly a market for it - i mean if you don't like it, simply don't buy it. What's the bother?

I guess it's a PC gamer centric thing, but just because stuff has been free since year dot does not mean you're entitled to it for free forever. You were never entitled to it all in fact.

Maximilian

hooradiation wrote: »

Well if you're going to give a set of reasons as to why piracy people pirate i think it's fair to assume your either agreeing or are sympathetic to the views being put forward unless you make it clear that you're not.

Actually no it's not a fair assumption to make. There's a difference between trying to understand something and sympathizing with it. At no point did I say I agree with or sympathise with piracy, quite the opposite in fact. That's a baseless assumption you made yourself. What I have been saying essentially, is that publishers have been acting in a manner which I think actually encourages people to pirate. If I said fast food advertising encourages people to eat unhealthily, would you then impute an opinion on my part that I agree with unhealthy eating?

hooradiation wrote: »

You REALLY need to stop saying that. I'm sure you mean publishers, but if you think any of these decisions come from the developer side you're crazy.

Of course I mean publishers.

hooradiation wrote: »

I don't get this attitude.
Firstly, what makes you think you have any kind of right to Mod tools or anything like that?
I understand "that's the way it's always been" but publishers are under no obligation to have the developers spend time and money making these tools fit for public release.

Secondly, if people are willing to pay for DLC then why shouldn't publishers pursue that? Like it or not there is clearly a market for it - i mean if you don't like it, simply don't buy it. What's the bother?

I guess it's a PC gamer centric thing, but just because stuff has been free since year dot does not mean you're entitled to it for free forever. You were never entitled to it all in fact.

Again you are making assumptions. He didn't say anyone has a "right" to mod tools, he is merely expressing annoyance that they are not being released as frequently as before. He didn't say publishers shouldn't be allowed to charge for DLC either nor I think, has anyone else. DLC could be great if done right. This forum is filled with threads and posts with people, quite rightly, complaining about DLC, limited editions, and even full games that are a rip-offs, falsely advertised etc. The fact that your not obliged to buy them, doesn't make them any less of a rip-off nor does such an option dis-entitle you to express an opinion on the matter.

hooradiation

Maximilian wrote: »

Actually no it's not a fair assumption to make. There's a difference between trying to understand something and sympathizing with it. At no point did I say I agree with or sympathise with piracy, quite the opposite in fact. That's a baseless assumption you made yourself.

No, it is. this is a pretty ambiguous way of communicating, and if you're not clear then misunderstanding will happen.
Now lets move on.

Maximilian wrote: »

What I have been saying essentially, is that publishers have been acting in a manner which I think actually encourages people to pirate. If I said fast food advertising encourages people to eat unhealthily, would you then impute an opinion on my part that I agree with unhealthy eating?

That's a bad analogy, mostly because the first part of it may have been what you meant, but it's not analogous to what you said.


And, I reject your idea that people have been "encouraged" to pirate. That's a cop out.
We're not talking about an essential product here so what we are looking at here is people who have decided that "i want it" is enough of a reason to take it.

There is no blame on the publishers here. Zero. They may be pricing in ways people don't like, ubi's latest DRM may be backwardassretarded but that is not 'encouraging' people to do anything. It's just a lame excuse.

People want these games, they don't want to pay for them, so rather than just say that they pretend they are being oppressed or mistreated somehow.


It's such an amazingly awful, and very typically of the internet, kind of rubbish my only surprise is it hasn't ended up in the CT forum.

Maximilian wrote: »

Again you are making assumptions. He didn't say anyone has a "right" to mod tools, he is merely expressing annoyance that they are not being released as frequently as before. He didn't say publishers shouldn't be allowed to charge for DLC either nor I think, has anyone else. DLC could be great if done right. This forum is filled with threads and posts with people, quite rightly, complaining about DLC, limited editions, and even full games that are a rip-offs, falsely advertised etc. The fact that your not obliged to buy them, doesn't make them any less of a rip-off nor does such an option dis-entitle you to express an opinion on the matter.

Whatever you may take from it, when someone outright states that "Now the greedy developers aren't releasing the tools and are purposely killing the pc community" I'm going to take more than just 'merely expressing annoyance' from it.

And given the level of rage at things like IWNet, i think you're being disingenuous if you're going to tell me that the PC gaming community don't expect a certain level of tools/modding potential as a god given right.

Hercule

Increasingly aggressive DRM -vs- increasingly sophisticated piracy is the future Unfortunately most companies are beginning to spend more time trying to protect their games and lock them up in diabolical DRM that they end up creating systems which hinder legit users of the game - it sucks but then again so does the PC games market compared to consoles.

(excluding MMOs). I cant think of a major PC title or game I have owned aside from call of duty 4 that hasnt tried to incorporate some laborious login system to play multiplayer games - usually to its detriment - this includes every game on the steam platform.

Thanks to Microsoft, Ubisoft, Valve and perhaps a few others this is a fundamental part of PC gaming now and other then the odd stats/awards systems I don't see what this login/DRM systems improve upon or how they add value to a PC game as a product in any way