"Irish Shooters Digest"/NARGC Newsletter

bunny shooter

After looking at this months "Irish Shooters Digest" the question just has to be asked (the one in the poll) :rolleyes:

Wonder will they post any letters that don't support Des Crofton ?

deeksofdoom

bunny shooter wrote: »

After looking at this months "Irish Shooters Digest" the question just has to be asked (the one in the poll) :rolleyes:

Wonder will they post any letters that don't support Des Crofton ?

How many years did it take for you to work that one out, of course it is!

Sparks

bunny shooter wrote: »

Wonder will they post any letters that don't support Des Crofton ?

They will on occasion, but you'd find that there'll be a rebuttal letter in the same issue, which requires them to pass on notice of the letter and await a response before going to print. I can't recall offhand any other individual or organisation being afforded the same treatment.

Dvs

You know this sort of thing never ceases to amaze me,
even in the microcosm that is the shooting forum,
we spend a lot of time saying that all shooting disciplines should work together, we should not take this demonization of shooting sports and hunting, we should put our differences aside, we should support those that stand up to the poor treatment that is dished out to sports shooters and hunters.

And then when a small sample of hundreds of letters of support for an individual and organisation that is actually doing that are published, this kind of nit picking takes place.

Des Crofton and I have not always seen eye to eye, but I for one am happy to put that behind me, when shooting sports and hunting are being subjected to a concerted ongoing attack by the state, political parties and their looney fringe for their own ends.

And so should everyone else,
involved in shooting sports and hunting.


Dvs.

bunny shooter

deeksofdoom wrote: »

How many years did it take for you to work that one out, of course it is!

I had it worked out a long time ago Just reckon it's worth mentioning in light of the recent issue

Sparks wrote: »

They will on occasion, but you'd find that there'll be a rebuttal letter in the same issue,

I have noticed that myself

Sparks wrote: »

which requires them to pass on notice of the letter and await a response before going to print.

Agreed, which is a snub to the original letter writer or a cute ploy to stimulate further correspondence in an effort to promote a "row"

Sparks wrote: »

I can't recall offhand any other individual or organisation being afforded the same treatment.

Neither can I which is why the circulation of that magazine is smaller than it could be :rolleyes:

bunny shooter

Dvs,

A response in your usual style

I wonder was the "other" person/s contacted and shown these letters and asked if he/they wanted to reply before the magazine went to print in the same way Des would be?

Fairness in all things is important

Funny you mention about all the shooting organisations working together I think that is what Des & NARGC were being critised for in the statment that started this war of words :P

From my reading of it the shooting participants on the FCP had no meeting since Dec 2008. Des was Chairman of the shooting participants as NARGC was the organisation with the largest membership. Therefore it is/was his responsibility to ensure there were/are meetings to make sure all the shooting parties interests are being looked after.

Here is the Statement from the SSAI website

Statement by Joe Costello -

Firearms Consultative Panel representative notice.

I represent the SSAI on the shooters panel of the Firearms Consultative Panel and as such I bear responsibility for the vast majority of target shooters in Ireland.

In the early days of the Firearms Consultative Panel much was discussed and co-operated on, however for a long period of time, in spite of calls to convene a meeting to discuss matters of great importance, no shooting panel meeting has been called.

The last meeting of the Shooters panel was in Early December 2008.

The past 12 month period has seen the most radical changes to many aspects of our shooting sports.

The whole transformation of the licensing system has come about without a panel meeting.

Even our appointment with the Minister for Justice was not preceded or followed by a meeting. No cohesive strategy was discussed, no pooling of resources, no advice sought.

I have continued to strive to obtain the best deal possible for all target shooters and have constantly over this time liaised with both the Department of Justice and the Gardaí on their behalf. Good progress has been made on many issues and it is an evolving process.

It is important therefore to note that announcements in the media purporting to be made with the consent of the Firearms Consultative Panel or on behalf of the Firearms Consultative Panel , or creating the impression that some form of consensus has been arrived at by the shooting panel are false.

No actions have been approved by or are the result of consultation and agreement with the SSAI representative. Indeed some of the views expressed and actions taken apparently on behalf of the Shooters Panel and Firearms Consultative Panel, are in my opinion potentially damaging to both good working relationships we have established and our sports of target shooting.

Joe Costello

Chairman SSAI – FCP representative

This statement is a personal statement from Joe Costello and does not

necessarily represent the views of the NGB's within the SSAI

Bananaman

Sweet Jaysus

A guy used a famous Cromwell quote at an SSAI meeting last year
"If you put an Irishman on a spit he will turn it himself" - never a truer word except perhaps "If you put an IrishMan on a spit - the rest of them will turn it"

Who gives a rats ass if Des Crofton gets a preview of the Digest? Even if it is true.

Who cares if NARGC have loads of content in the Irish Shooters Digest?

The people who read it - that's who.

If you don't like it - don't read it - simple as.

As to who said what, when, where and to who over the last few years.

WHO CARES - it's history - we are where we are - we now have to fight it - TOGETHER. If we prevail we can have a Nuremburg but until we do, we should all focus on the problem to hand - namely the obvious policy to outlaw target shooting and hunting - or more specifically - private firearms ownership for that use - in Ireland.
The greatest weapon that can be used against us is out own willingness to go for each others throats.
The greatest defense we can have is to stand as one.

If someone decides to stand up to the unfair application of the law - fair dues to them - I for one will not give a hoot who they are or why they are doing it - it needs to be done and fair play to them for doing it.

Too many sideline goalkeepers if you ask me.

B'Man

Mr Mole

Likewise, I would not in the past have supported some of the views of Mr Crofton, however, it appears that he has now seen through the deceipt that abounded in certain departments, and has taken appropriate action to show the displeasure of the general shooting community at the abject failure of the implimentation of the so called new licensing system.

On another note, I understand that Mr. Crofton was not Chairman of the FCP, and has no role in calling any meetings. The Chairman is / was Mr Garrett Byrne of DOJ&LR on behalf of the Minister.

I wish Mr Crofton every success, and he has my confidence to do what is right for shooters in general.

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

A guy used a famous Cromwell quote

Guys have a habit of doing that, though my favorite quote by Voltaire seems never to be used for some strange reason.

Voltaire wrote:

A witty saying proves nothing.

Who gives a rats ass if Des Crofton gets a preview of the Digest? Even if it is true.

Well, it would have to be true, that's not so much speculation as the inability of someone to read something before it's generally published unless they are given a preview of it.

As to who gives a rodent's posterior, well, someone cared enough to start the thread here. And we generally don't stomp on shooters who get wound up enough about something to complain about it, though we don't prevent the object of their complaints from counter-arguing either, nor interested parties from presenting counter-argument (as your post exemplifies).

If you don't like it - don't read it - simple as.

Indeed, in terms of action, that's about all the law permits.
That, and talking about it elsewhere in non-libellous form.
Which is what the OP appeared to be doing.

WHO CARES - it's history - we are where we are

Since quotes seem to be important, perhaps the classic quote referring to the fate of those who care not for history would be worth keeping in mind...
...and if not, perhaps the logical development of your proposition should be (namely, that all it takes to get away with blue murder is to get away with it for long enough).

The greatest weapon that can be used against us is out own willingness to go for each others throats.
The greatest defense we can have is to stand as one.

Indeed, but the problem is that most of the unhappiness between groups (and to be fair, there's little enough of that -- it's like airline crashes, exceptionally infrequent but exceptionally widely reported upon) is down to people going for others sports. Even Des is not immune to that (and I say so having personally witnessed such an incident, but I also say so knowing that incident was not necessarily malicious but politic; the problem is, politic statements have inbuilt assumptions of priority and those priorities are areas which require debate and agreement, not mere decrees).

If someone decides to stand up to the unfair application of the law - fair dues to them - I for one will not give a hoot who they are or why they are doing it - it needs to be done and fair play to them for doing it.

Indeed, and fair applause when they prevail; but it's a tricky game and one where failure leads to a clampdown on everyone so it's hardly fair to say that comment is irrelevant merely because someone's not sitting in the courtroom. Haven't we all gotten slapped to one measure or another by the Charleton judgement? And were we all in the courtroom for that?

The first rule of the forum charter is for civility, not silence. It is perfectly possible to have a civil yet vehement disagreement with someone. In fact, it's not merely possible, it's a foundation of modern society, and I don't like this tendency in our shooting community to try to stifle it and insist that you're "with us or agin' us", it's borderline insulting.

Sparks

Mr Mole wrote: »

On another note, I understand that Mr. Crofton was not Chairman of the FCP, and has no role in calling any meetings. The Chairman is / was Mr Garrett Byrne of DOJ&LR on behalf of the Minister.

Indeed, and Mr.Crofton likewise had no official role in calling or chairing meetings of the shooting association members (though there is, as always in our little island, a difference between official roles and de facto roles); and it was those private meetings between the shooting bodies that jaycee's letter referred to.

bunny shooter

Bananaman wrote: »

Sweet Jaysus

A guy used a famous Cromwell quote at an SSAI meeting last year
"If you put an Irishman on a spit he will turn it himself" - never a truer word except perhaps "If you put an IrishMan on a spit - the rest of them will turn it"

You do realise that in UK Cromwell is looked upon as a hero. Amazing how a villian to some is a hero to others

Bananaman wrote: »

Who gives a rats ass if Des Crofton gets a preview of the Digest? Even if it is true.

Sparks has covered this and no I don't give a "rats ass" just that it's funny it's so obvious :P

Bananaman wrote: »

Who cares if NARGC have loads of content in the Irish Shooters Digest?

I bet NARGC do and the editor as it fills his pages. Just wonder if Des gets paid :P

Bananaman wrote: »

If you don't like it - don't read it - simple as.

Wow ! Startling conclusion there :P

Bananaman wrote: »

As to who said what, when, where and to who over the last few years.

WHO CARES - it's history - we are where we are - we now have to fight it - TOGETHER. If we prevail we can have a Nuremburg but until we do, we should all focus on the problem to hand - namely the obvious policy to outlaw target shooting and hunting - or more specifically - private firearms ownership for that use - in Ireland.
The greatest weapon that can be used against us is out own willingness to go for each others throats.
The greatest defense we can have is to stand as one.

It looks like we're still NOT standing together though. Looks like NARGC are going on a solo run :rolleyes: But then they do have a lot of money behind them, apparently :eek:

Bananaman wrote: »

If someone decides to stand up to the unfair application of the law - fair dues to them - I for one will not give a hoot who they are or why they are doing it - it needs to be done and fair play to them for doing it.

Easy when it's not your own money.

Mr Mole wrote: »

Likewise, I would not in the past have supported some of the views of Mr Crofton, however, it appears that he has now seen through the deceipt that abounded in certain departments, and has taken appropriate action to show the displeasure of the general shooting community at the abject failure of the implimentation of the so called new licensing system.

Jasus, I predicted this here at the start of the FCP process :mad:

Mr Mole wrote: »

On another note, I understand that Mr. Crofton was not Chairman of the FCP, and has no role in calling any meetings. The Chairman is / was Mr Garrett Byrne of DOJ&LR on behalf of the Minister.

Where did I say he was Chairman of the FCP ? I stated Shooting bodies.

Mr Mole wrote: »

I wish Mr Crofton every success, and he has my confidence to do what is right for shooters in general.

I wish him every sucess too but some of his money is MINE and a lot of my shooting friends and very few of them have pistols !

Sparks wrote: »

Well, it would have to be true, that's not so much speculation as the inability of someone to read something before it's generally published unless they are given a preview of it.

He obviously missed that edition :P

Sparks wrote: »

As to who gives a rodent's posterior, well, someone cared enough to start the thread here. And we generally don't stomp on shooters who get wound up enough about something to complain about it, though we don't prevent the object of their complaints from counter-arguing either, nor interested parties from presenting counter-argument (as your post exemplifies).

I wasn't actually complaining more commenting on it

Sparks wrote: »

That, and talking about it elsewhere in non-libellous form.
Which is what the OP appeared to be doing.

I was/am

Sparks wrote: »

Since quotes seem to be important, perhaps the classic quote referring to the fate of those who care not for history would be worth keeping in mind...
...and if not, perhaps the logical development of your proposition should be (namely, that all it takes to get away with blue murder is to get away with it for long enough).

Endeminic in all walks of life in this country :rolleyes:

Sparks wrote: »

The first rule of the forum charter is for civility, not silence. It is perfectly possible to have a civil yet vehement disagreement with someone. In fact, it's not merely possible, it's a foundation of modern society, and I don't like this tendency in our shooting community to try to stifle it and insist that you're "with us or agin' us", it's borderline insulting.

:cool:

Sparks wrote: »

Indeed, and Mr.Crofton likewise had no official role in calling or chairing meetings of the shooting association members (though there is, as always in our little island, a difference between official roles and de facto roles); and it was those private meetings between the shooting bodies that jaycee's letter referred to.

Have seen people in various clubs over the years push themselves to the fore and then assume "command" but officially they don't hold any such position and therefore it's easier for them to wash their hands when it all goes wrong.

cavan shooter

The irish Shooters digest magazine is a magazine which you love to hate, every month I say its crap, i'm not buying it then I go out and buy it again and again and again.

The standard of articles to the main is very poor, However anyone that really wants to contribute can, because every month there is an invite for anyone to contribute.

So NARGC and Mr. crofton has an article in the magazine on a monthly basis, well why not. The magazine is predominently a hunting/gun dog/clay pigeon magazine. I'm sure if articles where submitted on target shooting it would get printed. I'd guess the target shooters (rifle and pistol) are in a minority, that the majority of readers are traditional hunting folk and thats what the publisher aims his articles for.

Des Crofton and the NARGC comes in for a lot of flack from people and I suppose there is a bit of a "Marmite" complex around the chap, however as I see it its the NARGC and "Mr. Marmite" thats fighting the fight at present. That he should be given the credit for at least.:)

jwshooter

the 21 people that voted in the poll so far , you all have read this months ISD ? .

i would think not.

Sparks

jwshooter wrote: »

the 21 people that voted in the poll so far , you all have read this months ISD ? .
i would think not.

I would think that this month's ISD would be insufficient evidence to decide how to vote in that poll jw. You'd have to have read the ISD for a few years to decide; or to have noted the interplay between the three main people involved (the ISD's editor, the ISD's main advertiser, and Mr.Crofton himself).

Given the propensity for Irish shooters to fill time between details on the range, the latter could be considered public domain information, given that in this case "public" refers to "shooters".

bunny shooter

jwshooter wrote: »

the 21 people that voted in the poll so far , you all have read this months ISD ? .

i would think not.

Yes I have and have been reading it for the last 7 years, at least.

God knows I'm stuck for something decent to read

jwshooter

Sparks wrote: »

I would think that this month's ISD would be insufficient evidence to decide how to vote in that poll jw. You'd have to have read the ISD for a few years to decide; or to have noted the interplay between the three main people involved (the ISD's editor, the ISD's main advertiser, and Mr.Crofton himself).

Given the propensity for Irish shooters to fill time between details on the range, the latter could be considered public domain information, given that in this case "public" refers to "shooters".

well then if your not a regular reader of the ISD , how can you vote .

Sparks

jwshooter wrote: »

well then if your not a regular reader of the ISD , how can you vote .

I would have thought that that was obvious - by being an ex-regular reader of the ISD, or by knowing and having an opinion upon the methods by which it is compiled and printed.

This is less of an exclusive elite group than you might imagine or opine.

jwshooter

Sparks wrote: »

I would have thought that that was obvious - by being an ex-regular reader of the ISD, or by knowing and having an opinion upon the methods by which it is compiled and printed.

This is less of an exclusive elite group than you might imagine or opine.

obvious to you maybe .

Sparks

To be fair jw, the english in post #14 there is not exactly demanding on the reader. You're required to be able to tell past tense from present tense, and that's about the limit of the analytic ability demanded...

jwshooter

Sparks wrote: »

To be fair jw, the english in post #14 there is not exactly demanding on the reader. You're required to be able to tell past tense from present tense, and that's about the limit of the analytic ability demanded...

what waffle .

Sparks

I prefer verbosity to pomposity myself, and indeed to vulgarity on my good days.
On my bad days, I might be tempted, should you catch me at a bad moment, to be more... concise.

Dvs

Sparks wrote: »

I prefer verbosity to pomposity myself, and indeed to vulgarity on my good days.
On my bad days, I might be tempted, should you catch me at a bad moment, to be more... concise.

So I take it today is pedantic day.






Dvs.

pedroeibar1

I’ve bought it a few times and do not rate it as a good publication.
If it is like most periodicals, it runs about a month behind – e.g. most stories for the May issue are ready by end March. It is a common courtesy for an editor to forewarn any well-known individual if a story is being run about him/her and give them an opportunity to comment. In addition to filling space, it gives a more balanced article and also provides more comprehensive information. Something that is pertinent today is not relevant the month after next and most readers would not give a rodents posterior about a letter of rebuttal on a stale topic.

FWIW
P.

Sparks

It's not the practice of giving a preview itself that's the issue pedro; more the exclusive nature of whom that courtesy is extended to. If it was freely extended to any and all parties named in these letters, that'd be perfectly acceptable; but I can't recall that being the case over the last decade or so.

pedroeibar1

Sparks wrote: »

It's not the practice of giving a preview itself that's the issue pedro; more the exclusive nature of whom that courtesy is extended to. If it was freely extended to any and all parties named in these letters, that'd be perfectly acceptable; but I can't recall that being the case over the last decade or so.

I take your word for it. As neither subscriber nor reader of the ISD I’m not qualified to comment (which is why I did not vote.) However, if the ISD is reliant on advertising or advertorial from NARGC, what’s new with media one-sidedness? It’s just another brick in the wall of comment that the standard of professionalism in Irish journalism is dismal.
P.

jwshooter

the vast majority of game shooters in ireland are in the nargc or CA, the ISD is a ideal platform for the nargc aand CA to inform there members what's happening .
i cant see the problem , the ISD would be committing suicide to not roll in with the major sporting interests .ICPSA,NARGC,CA,RFDA ,RISE.

a lot of sportsmen only buy the ISD .

i know that interests on boards have in the past had words with the ed of the isd so i would hold little regard for there comments .this spite how long winded they are.

Kryten

Just what we need, more infighting. Des seems to have have seen the FCP for what it was set up for. An information gathering device for the DOJ/Gardai. Sorry If I seem a bit conspiracy theorist or paranoid, but I do feel shafted on the whole renewal of previously licenced centerfire pistol, and the ridiculous refusal.

My father has probably been labelled as a nay sayer or a glass half empty type of guy, but has been saying for 3 years now that we would get shafted when the new system comes in... He was right I think...

Fair play to Des sticking up for us. I feel he has my (and many others) interests at heart. I am not a hunter, never have been. Shot a hare in January for food in Aus, but that is the extent of it. We need to be united on this and not trying to nit pick everything that is said in the ISD.

This is why I am not even going bother with a vote on this Poll. I have yet to see evidence that the ISD wont publish a reasonable article or letter sent in by the shooting population.

My only critisism, although minor, is that all these letters, articles, opinions and rants are not published to a wider media reading population. By publishing in the ISD, you are really preaching to the converted. Now how to get this level of anger and frustration into the general media publications, I do not know. While they say we have no censorship and freedom of speech in the press, I dont reckon we will get very far. In my opinion, most journalists want to demonise guns and people who use them, whether legal or illegal. I reckon we will be all tarred with the same media brush.

Apologies for being so negative,

But I am so P***ed at being victimised for my sport. :mad::mad:

Tackleberrywho

Sparks wrote: »

I prefer verbosity to pomposity myself, and indeed to vulgarity on my good days.
On my bad days, I might be tempted, should you catch me at a bad moment, to be more... concise.

Sparks have you swallowed a set of collins dictionaries?:D

I never bought ISD, I sometimes pick up the mag in easons or whereever and look at the articles on Rifles pistols etc, then i decide, there is a lot of waffle to be had in the pages.

I once wrote a letter to the taoiseach in regards to Restricted firearms.
I got a reply directed at the author of an ISD article, Even though it was nothing to do with my points and questions.
I did not know what to do.
As I did not want to be tarred with the same brush as the person writing the article,But I was by someone else's hand So I just bit my lip and said nothing.

I still have the reply from DOJ, When I had an interview for my restricted gear I was glad I was assessed on my own knowledge and ability not on anybody else's views.
Upside of new regulations I got my mod legalised and ammo out to a capacity to fulfill my needs.
I have seen both sides of the fence in regarding licencing in Ireland, for a young chap like myself:D

The ISD always to me was heavily weighted with Nordie adverts and articles, even though they are the minority on this Island.
Wild articles in the ISD about pistols etc only undermine good work in negotiation by some of us.
Everybody here would like a more liberal approach to firearms but asking retorical questions like and I quote" Have the gaurds lost the plot?" do not help our cause.I think that was from a a 2008 article in ISD, I was given a copy by a mate which I help on to for posterity

But at the risk of getting in trouble for my opinions I will shut up now:D

bunny shooter

Kryten wrote: »

Just what we need, more infighting.

"In fighting" :eek:

It a human trait in us all

The Irish have for their entire history been "in fighting" and our oppressors, whether internal or external, have used it against us/each other and continue to do so

By the way the poll contains a question not an accusation therefore, this is not "in fighting" it's ****e stirring if anything

jwshooter

as axl rose said in the RDS a few years ago ( the fighting fxxking irish )

Grizzly 45

As Spike Milligan said on the fighting Irish.
"They have won battles and wars for everyone else,except for themselves."

xesse

Here lads
there is loads of talk here on how to fix the problem with the firearms law in this country
There,s what the FCP should do, the SSAI,NARGC,NTSAI,NASRPC should do and ,
Then there is what Y O U are doing
How many on here actually have pistols,even .22 unrestricted ones?
Now how many were at the last pistol shoot?
Answer that and you have the problem with pistol shooting in this country

Tackleberrywho

xesse wrote: »

Here lads
there is loads of talk here on how to fix the problem with the firearms law in this country
There,s what the FCP should do, the SSAI,NARGC,NTSAI,NASRPC should do and ,
Then there is what Y O U are doing
How many on here actually have pistols,even .22 unrestricted ones?
Now how many were at the last pistol shoot?
Answer that and you have the problem with pistol shooting in this country

Unfair, I do not need, nor does anybody need to compete to own!!
If you like to hurl you do not have to play the game, you can go to a GAA field and hit a few points goals etc.
I myself get the luxury of firing HK 9mm for free every year!
I bought a glock .40 as it was cheaper than an Olympic pistol. That does not mean I have to go to shoots that are on on weekends to suit people who work regular 9-5

A lot of us shooters/Hunters like the sport coz we can fit it around our work.

I believe your comment is unfair.
I never shoot competition but I use the range, does that mean I am not entitled to be there?

I was attending a Range on and off since 1999, And yet I think I was maybe in 2 or three competitions.
I shoot coz I love it. Not to compete......
I have enough stress in my life, so why would i want the stress of competition.
P.S I have done as much as the next guy for the sport, I do it every day by educating anybody who asks for my help, or pointing them in the right direction if i do not know the answer.

xesse

yea yea whatever
would the GAA be as big as it is if every player just hit a few slithers around a field?
maybe they would try to licence the hurl as it could be deemed an offensive weapon lol

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Unfair, I do not need, nor does anybody need to compete to own!!
If you like to hurl you do not have to play the game, you can go to a GAA field and hit a few points goals etc.
I myself get the luxury of firing HK 9mm for free every year!
I bought a glock .40 as it was cheaper than an Olympic pistol. That does not mean I have to go to shoots that are on on weekends to suit people who work regular 9-5

A lot of us shooters/Hunters like the sport coz we can fit it around our work.

I believe your comment is unfair.
I never shoot competition but I use the range, does that mean I am not entitled to be there?

I was attending a Range on and off since 1999, And yet I think I was maybe in 2 or three competitions.
I shoot coz I love it. Not to compete......
I have enough stress in my life, so why would i want the stress of competition.
P.S I have done as much as the next guy for the sport, I do it every day by educating anybody who asks for my help, or pointing them in the right direction if i do not know the answer.

Tackleberrywho

xesse wrote: »

yea yea whatever

I take it you are a 9-5er then so!

xesse

There are postal competitions too
if we as shooters dont bring up the profile of pistol shooting in this country
we could well see an outright ban on pistols down the line,
so if everyone shot a few competitions , raising the profile of pistol shooting
we all might save the sport in this country
it might even save you a legal battle in the future if the powers that be decide there is no reason to licence pistols
It seems to have worked for the clay and trap guys

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

I take it you are a 9-5er then so!

Bananaman

Xsesse has a point - for many people applying for their cf pistols this time found their ch super wanted proof of competition

Sure the majority of competitions are on at weekends as that suits the majority of people

NASRPC or your club would be more than willing to facilitate those that cannot attend these weekend shoots - just start the discussion with them and see what happens

I also agree that competition should not be a requirement but it helps the argument - to take away someones hobby can be sold to the public by the Minister easily but to abolish a sport is more difficult - I know he has done it already with IPSC but he did that as a solo run against the opposition and his own party using the party whip - when he sells the PR, if you do not take part in competition you are a gun enthusiast=bad as opposed to a sportsperson=good. In the end it is the guns he is after, all of them - not the sports - he is only after the sports as it removes the 'reason' for having them.

Range attendance should be sufficient to show you have been target shooting but competition attendance can only help and to some Gardai is the only acceptable proof. Right now for Centrefire Pistol but for everything else in due course.

A good example was the NASRPC fundraiser is hilltop earlier this year - over 100 competitors - that cannot be referred to as anything other than a major sporting event.
It is events like that and mass participation that will make it more difficult for the Minister to take it away from us.

It's also great craic - politics be-damned.

B'Man

PS: I'm a 7 to 7'er

bunny shooter

The only reason they looked for participation in competitions as a requirement to have a firearm for target shooting was because they knew very few participated in competitions and I reckon they got that nugget of information from here

My own Super, bless his cotton socks, once I mentioned target shooting with my firearms, as well as hunting for all but one, wanted to know what competitions, at what level and how often I entered competitions :eek: I have and do enter competitions but not as many as I'd like as I work shifts which include weekends, days and nights, and it's not always possilble to be off for competitions, unfortunately

The fact I am a member and regulary attend, often weekly, during the week if I'm working the weekends, an authorised range did not seem to be good enough :mad:

Thankfully I got to keep what I had but I reckon he was trying to make a case to revoke some of my licences :mad:

Tackleberrywho

xesse wrote: »

There are postal competitions too
if we as shooters dont bring up the profile of pistol shooting in this country
we could well see an outright ban on pistols down the line,
so if everyone shot a few competitions , raising the profile of pistol shooting
we all might save the sport in this country
it might even save you a legal battle in the future if the powers that be decide there is no reason to licence pistols
It seems to have worked for the clay and trap guys

I was able to say I shoot HK with the DF, and as a result My Pistol shooting was for practicing on my own time.

It's not the winning that's important, it's the taking part.

I have helped loads of guys fill out FA applications this year, and wrote cover letters for them.

Thats How I helped the sport!
Pistols are the same as rifles, are the same as shotguns, we all like to shoot them. Once we can shoot in a safe way, have a record of positive safety etc.

My local SGT asked ME if I would "Coach a few guys on what to say for their interview with the chief" As the local boys in blue have deemed me as a responcible chap and I have educated them over the years, explaining differences in calibres to them in a simple and easy to understand way!

Hence I never have any problem with them.
As I said, I go to the Range, that is my histroy. I know of lads that compete and were refused.
So does that put a hole in your arguement??;)
And If you compete you know who I am talking about!
As my previous point was, Attendance is all that is required and common sense, which is not that common;)

Grizzly 45

FFS PEOPLE!!! WOULD YOU ALL STOP falling into this goddam TRAP about COMPETITIONS!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: Would somone please show me in any of our firearms acts that it is a REQUIREMENT of your liscense that you shoot competitions on approved ranges???????Why the HELL do we have to keep giving our enemy ammo that we seem to be in tacit agreement with them that approved competitions are the only suitable reason to shoot handguns?????
Whats next??That if you dont shoot a "suitable amount of times" on your range you arent suitable to own a handgun?That if you dont win somthing at least three times a year you arent suitable??
That if you didnt shoot a national average you are unsuitable to own a handgun?That you havent repersented Ireland at least once in your life you are not suitable to own a firearm in your chosen sport??
Sorry,unless I woke up in the GDR ,Soviet Russia or N Korea this morning
This kind of attitude to shooting is contemptible coming from us Irish gunowners.
Keep it to whats there...If a super says how many competitions have you shot..Simply say "Did you put that pre condition on my liscense?" If not none of your damn busisness,and we will discuss it in the DC!
Stop giving these people more rope for which they are tying knots in for us to hang ourselves with.Honestly!!

pedroeibar1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

FFS PEOPLE!!! WOULD YOU ALL STOP falling into this goddam TRAP about COMPETITIONS!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: Would somone please show me in any of our firearms acts that it is a REQUIREMENT of your liscense that you shoot competitions on approved ranges???????Why the HELL do we have to keep giving our enemy ammo that we seem to be in tacit agreement with them that approved competitions are the only suitable reason to shoot handguns?????
Whats next??That if you dont shoot a "suitable amount of times" on your range you arent suitable to own a handgun?That if you dont win somthing at least three times a year you arent suitable??
That if you didnt shoot a national average you are unsuitable to own a handgun?That you havent repersented Ireland at least once in your life you are not suitable to own a firearm in your chosen sport??
Sorry,unless I woke up in the GDR ,Soviet Russia or N Korea this morning
This kind of attitude to shooting is contemptible coming from us Irish gunowners.
Keep it to whats there...If a super says how many competitions have you shot..Simply say "Did you put that pre condition on my liscense?" If not none of your damn busisness,and we will discuss it in the DC!
Stop giving these people more rope for which they are tying knots in for us to hang ourselves with.Honestly!!

Grizzly,
I see where you are coming from and accept much of your argument. However, there is a thin line between one’s “right” and fulfilling one’s “requirement.” A polite, non-confrontational stance is more likely to succeed than one of quoting law and his own rulebook at the CS. Approaching it in a positive way, as if obtaining the licence was just a matter of course, is the best way, with a polite smile. Remember, the FO has a boss who must not be annoyed, and so along up the line to the CS. In the event of an unpleasant incident involving a firearm, the Minister can do a Pontius Pilate and blame the CS "For granting a licence to hold a dangerous WEAPON." So, it is much easier (as always) for everyone along th eline to say “No” than “Yes” to an FCA1 application.



From what I’ve seen, including the responses to Parliamentary Questions, I have concluded that the Minister has in a cowardly fashion shirked his responsibility and passed the decision to the Chief Super with little or no guidance, evidenced by the large number of variations in questions and excuses region by region. The wording of the Act, the Minister's obnoxious position and the role of the “persona designate” is the issue that should be tackled by the pistol people.

P.

xesse

Whats wrong with doing a few competitions even if you aren,t to pushed about winning just to stack the odds in your favour when licence renewal comes around again?:DIf you really want something in this life, you have to work for it - Now quiet, they're about to announce the lottery numbers!;)

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

FFS PEOPLE!!! WOULD YOU ALL STOP falling into this goddam TRAP about COMPETITIONS!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: Would somone please show me in any of our firearms acts that it is a REQUIREMENT of your liscense that you shoot competitions on approved ranges???????Why the HELL do we have to keep giving our enemy ammo that we seem to be in tacit agreement with them that approved competitions are the only suitable reason to shoot handguns?????
Whats next??That if you dont shoot a "suitable amount of times" on your range you arent suitable to own a handgun?That if you dont win somthing at least three times a year you arent suitable??
That if you didnt shoot a national average you are unsuitable to own a handgun?That you havent repersented Ireland at least once in your life you are not suitable to own a firearm in your chosen sport??
Sorry,unless I woke up in the GDR ,Soviet Russia or N Korea this morning
This kind of attitude to shooting is contemptible coming from us Irish gunowners.
Keep it to whats there...If a super says how many competitions have you shot..Simply say "Did you put that pre condition on my liscense?" If not none of your damn busisness,and we will discuss it in the DC!
Stop giving these people more rope for which they are tying knots in for us to hang ourselves with.Honestly!!

Grizzly 45

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Grizzly,
I see where you are coming from and accept much of your argument. However, there is a thin line between one’s “right” and fulfilling one’s “requirement.”

Indeed P ,however there are certainly no "rights" here re gun ownership,and as for "responsibilities" .They are laid down in the FA of various years. I cant find anywhere in them that shooting in "competitions "is a precondition,or a requirement.Not to mind we dont have a defination of what a competition is here.

A polite, non-confrontational stance is more likely to succeed than one of quoting law and his own rulebook at the CS.

Well, unfortuneatly for most of us going to the District Court on these matters.The time for that is long past.Also,the CS is as much obliged to obey the law of the land and the FA as you and me.He has been issued guidelines as to what he can,or cannot do.If he is starting to add in or make it up as he sees fit,then we are not in a democratic state but in one of an arbitariy police state.My point is,we do not have to assist them in agreeing that this is a good idea to hang ourselves.

Whats wrong with doing a few competitions even if you aren,t to pushed about winning just to stack the odds in your favour when licence renewal comes around again?If you really want something in this life, you have to work for it - Now quiet, they're about to announce the lottery numbers

!



First ,I want a defination in LAW as to what a competition actually is?

Second,I dont want to give those lot more ideas to deny anyone elses liscenses when they have enough dictatorial powers to do so already.

Third. Whats to say then if you are shooting "competitions" some other idiotic and vexing precondition is added,and supported by the unthinking amongst us as another good idea for appeasing the great God Cheif Super?There comes a time where we have to draw a line in the sand and say"enough"Either we all play on a level pitch without moving goal posts,or we then decide not to bother with a rule book at all and just go and do as we please here in society.

Fourth.Well aware of having to work for anything I have.I would consider a 2year six month ,running battle to gain a liscense three years ago as earning it,not to mind willing to take my cases to the Supreme court if necessary.:mad: Anyone coming along on that ride?????

xesse

i think i will draw a line in the sand here too

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Indeed P ,however there are certainly no "rights" here re gun ownership,and as for "responsibilities" .They are laid down in the FA of various years. I cant find anywhere in them that shooting in "competitions "is a precondition,or a requirement.Not to mind we dont have a defination of what a competition is here.

Well, unfortuneatly for most of us going to the District Court on these matters.The time for that is long past.Also,the CS is as much obliged to obey the law of the land and the FA as you and me.He has been issued guidelines as to what he can,or cannot do.If he is starting to add in or make it up as he sees fit,then we are not in a democratic state but in one of an arbitariy police state.My point is,we do not have to assist them in agreeing that this is a good idea to hang ourselves.

!



First ,I want a defination in LAW as to what a competition actually is?

Second,I dont want to give those lot more ideas to deny anyone elses liscenses when they have enough dictatorial powers to do so already.

Third. Whats to say then if you are shooting "competitions" some other idiotic and vexing precondition is added,and supported by the unthinking amongst us as another good idea for appeasing the great God Cheif Super?There comes a time where we have to draw a line in the sand and say"enough"Either we all play on a level pitch without moving goal posts,or we then decide not to bother with a rule book at all and just go and do as we please here in society.

Fourth.Well aware of having to work for anything I have.I would consider a 2year six month ,running battle to gain a liscense three years ago as earning it,not to mind willing to take my cases to the Supreme court if necessary.:mad: Anyone coming along on that ride?????

Sikamick

Please correct me if I’m wrong, did the Minister not state somewhere that firearms licenses are for sporting and recreational purpose. I have not seen anywhere in the act or commissioners guide lines that one has to be competitive to get a firearms license.

If one has to be competitive to get a firearms license where does this leave game or rough shooters, how do they prove that they are using their firearms, does one drag an odd deer to the local station as proof.

Sikamick

Bananaman

Ladies

I feel a spin down the garden path is upon us

a number of people have pointed out that there is competition there if people want to take part in it

they have pointed out that if people want to but cannot attend competition due to scheduling that solutions can be found

that competition should not be a requirement and is not a requirement under law but for some Gardai it is

that competition is recommended as it is good craic - allows you to meet more people interested in shooting, see more shooting ranges, support more shooting clubs and ranges, learn form other shooters, clubs and ranges and get some perspective and a more balanced view on what is happening countrywide, firsthand as opposed to through the rumour mill. It exposes you to new codes, disciplines and firearms

it removes much of the jingoism and inate distrust between isolated members of the shooting community and helps them to act as one and defend each other as 'the shooting community' rather that sniping at each oth 'from behind the toilet brush' (to coin a phrase)

nobody is either compelling anyone nor suggesting that they must take part in competition - that is a personal choice -

I for one just think it's a good idea and can highly recommend it


B'Man

Sikamick

Bananaman I totally agree with your sentiment, but to be competitive is not a prerequisite to getting a firearms license.

Example: we have a club member been told he cant have a telescopic sight for his .22 rifle by his firearms officer, (WHY) because he ticked the box on the FCA1 form 3.2 (Sights/other specify)he put down (Telescopic sights).

Off the wall or what? but this is the decision of his firearms officer because of the way he filled out the form.

Sikamick

Bananaman wrote: »

Ladies

I feel a spin down the garden path is upon us

a number of people have pointed out that there is competition there if people want to take part in it

they have pointed out that if people want to but cannot attend competition due to scheduling that solutions can be found

that competition should not be a requirement and is not a requirement under law but for some Gardai it is

that competition is recommended as it is good craic - allows you to meet more people interested in shooting, see more shooting ranges, support more shooting clubs and ranges, learn form other shooters, clubs and ranges and get some perspective and a more balanced view on what is happening countrywide, firsthand as opposed to through the rumour mill. It exposes you to new codes, disciplines and firearms

it removes much of the jingoism and inate distrust between isolated members of the shooting community and helps them to act as one and defend each other as 'the shooting community' rather that sniping at each oth 'from behind the toilet brush' (to coin a phrase)

nobody is either compelling anyone nor suggesting that they must take part in competition - that is a personal choice -

I for one just think it's a good idea and can highly recommend it


B'Man

cavan shooter

I think that actively partaking in the sport and actively partaking in competition is splitting hairs. Ok I do not shoot pistol, no interest how ever I shoot clays, Im not registered with the ICPSA but will shoot local flappers/ county shoots, club shoots etc.

Is it not good enough to be a member of a club, have proof that you use the firearm at the range, to justify the use of the firearm for sporting purposes, as a hobby.

Really all it takes is for a club to classify all members who shoot based on scores handed in like a golf society. Then you can clearly see that Mr. x is a active member who shoots and is classed at 15th in a club of 25 etc etc.

Just a suggestion

sidneyreilly

cavan shooter wrote: »

I think that actively partaking in the sport and actively partaking in competition is splitting hairs. Ok I do not shoot pistol, no interest how ever I shoot clays, Im not registered with the ICPSA but will shoot local flappers/ county shoots, club shoots etc.

Is it not good enough to be a member of a club, have proof that you use the firearm at the range, to justify the use of the firearm for sporting purposes, as a hobby.

Really all it takes is for a club to classify all members who shoot based on scores handed in like a golf society. Then you can clearly see that Mr. x is a active member who shoots and is classed at 15th in a club of 25 etc etc.

Just a suggestion

Your dead right.

Its where the firearm in question is restricted is where the water muddies somewhat insofar as the covenant of the only type suitable blah blah blah comes into play.

Whole thing is mad anyway

Grizzly 45

Bananaman wrote: »

Ladies

I feel a spin down the garden path is upon us

a number of people have pointed out that there is competition there if people want to take part in it

they have pointed out that if people want to but cannot attend competition due to scheduling that solutions can be found

that competition should not be a requirement and is not a requirement under law but for some Gardai it is

that competition is recommended as it is good craic - allows you to meet more people interested in shooting, see more shooting ranges, support more shooting clubs and ranges, learn form other shooters, clubs and ranges and get some perspective and a more balanced view on what is happening countrywide, firsthand as opposed to through the rumour mill. It exposes you to new codes, disciplines and firearms

it removes much of the jingoism and inate distrust between isolated members of the shooting community and helps them to act as one and defend each other as 'the shooting community' rather that sniping at each oth 'from behind the toilet brush' (to coin a phrase)

nobody is either compelling anyone nor suggesting that they must take part in competition - that is a personal choice -

I for one just think it's a good idea and can highly recommend it


B'Man

Indeed Bman I agree whole heartedly with your sentiments of the above post.It is just however that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
This is just way too open to be not abused by either side of the arguement..After all I could see a shooting organisation abusing this just as easy as the Gardai/DOJ..Say that the only competitions held that are recognised by the Gardai are the only "offical" ones sanctioned by the respective organisation?IOW a friendly club match of skittle shooting or bullseye isnt any good unless it is recognised and sanctioned by the offical shooting body.
I can see all sorts of horror scenarios developing with a shooting body putting into effect,[for some reason more than the Gardai in this case]things like ,excessively lengthy training periods to coin more money out of their members and regimenting the sport so much to make sure only "genuine" people partake in competitions. Or that their cert is the ONLY recognised saftey qualification and none else will do be they from the EU or whereever..[FFS we have enough of that nonsense with HCAP trying to creep out of the Coilte woods .] Not to mind knowing Ireland and the way Golden circles and cosy cartels worked,it is a good chance that this could be corrupted and subjected to cronyism,favourtism and back handers,under the guise of becoming an approved shooter.
Sorry,I shoot to relax,not to repersent Ireland,fill up other peoples pockets,or be regimented by being told where,what,how and with what I can shoot.So long as we are safe,and sane and shooting on safe ranges or areas,and as mature adults take responsibility for our actions or inactions in obeying the law.There should be NO reasons for us or our shooting bodies to be adding more chains to our already well manacled hands.
As the wicked witch of the West once said to Judy Garland "Be careful for what you wish for.You might just get it"

Tackleberrywho

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Indeed Bman I agree whole heartedly with your sentiments of the above post.It is just however that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
This is just way too open to be not abused by either side of the arguement..After all I could see a shooting organisation abusing this just as easy as the Gardai/DOJ..Say that the only competitions held that are recognised by the Gardai are the only "offical" ones sanctioned by the respective organisation?IOW a friendly club match of skittle shooting or bullseye isnt any good unless it is recognised and sanctioned by the offical shooting body.
I can see all sorts of horror scenarios developing with a shooting body putting into effect,[for some reason more than the Gardai in this case]things like ,excessively lengthy training periods to coin more money out of their members and regimenting the sport so much to make sure only "genuine" people partake in competitions. Or that their cert is the ONLY recognised saftey qualification and none else will do be they from the EU or whereever..[FFS we have enough of that nonsense with HCAP trying to creep out of the Coilte woods .] Not to mind knowing Ireland and the way Golden circles and cosy cartels worked,it is a good chance that this could be corrupted and subjected to cronyism,favourtism and back handers,under the guise of becoming an approved shooter.
Sorry,I shoot to relax,not to repersent Ireland,fill up other peoples pockets,or be regimented by being told where,what,how and with what I can shoot.So long as we are safe,and sane and shooting on safe ranges or areas,and as mature adults take responsibility for our actions or inactions in obeying the law.There should be NO reasons for us or our shooting bodies to be adding more chains to our already well manacled hands.
As the wicked witch of the West once said to Judy Garland "Be careful for what you wish for.You might just get it"

Here here, Well said. Life is stressfull enough at the mo, workin for the Man, Never mind given the man your last scent.
I love going shooting with one to two mates max.
We can spot for each other and have the craic and talk about girls:D

I'm not dissing competitions, just they are not my thing. I like to drink too but I don't go into competitions for drinking beer.
I have my own clay trap and like to break clays over a ploughed field.

It was NORMAL for me growing up for clays pidgeon to be in the neighbours field in Feb - March. Something to do in spare time.

Is there not enough rules and restrictions that we have to abide by?
We work hard all week/weekend when we are off we like to do what we enjoy, for me that is shooting.

Not getting up @8am on a sunday to be in time for registering for a comp, I'd prefer to roll over and have another hours kip.:D

But each to his own!
So calm down with the competition lark lads.
If I go to range, Targets in front, Bang, bang, Bang. targets down, go home.
What is wrong with that??
And I often go to thje range mid week, whats wrong with that either

This is tack, signing off