boards NAMA Poll!

If NAMA was put to a referendum would you vote for it or against?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWlz1IKWfw4

Bearing in mind Lenihan wants to put a floor under house prices?

Are you a buyer and want cheap houses and want as much economic mayhem as possible to bring prices down?
or maybe your stuck commuting from Donegal to Cork in a one bed apartment that you thought would be worth a million by now if it werent for Mc Dowell screwing up the stamp duty that time?


Is this the salvation of the Irish Economy?

AckwelFoley

Nama is like pissing on yourself to cure a jellyfish sting.

Not nice but has to be done

My name is URL

I want to know what your alternative would be before voting

My name is URL

My name is URL wrote: »

I want to know what your alternative would be before voting

Im assuming its like the Icelandic vote - if the people refuse the Govts proposal they have to go back to the drawing board

snyper

snyper wrote: »

Nama is like pissing on yourself to cure a jellyfish sting.

Not nice but has to be done

nah its more like shooting yourself in the head to get rid of a headache

AckwelFoley

My name is URL wrote: »

I want to know what your alternative would be before voting

Like the possible alternative governments and "paddy on the barstool" they only have a ney to what is suggested or implemented. Void of ideas.

KnifeWRENCH

snyper wrote: »

Nama is like pissing on yourself to cure a jellyfish sting.

Not nice but has to be done

Exactly.
So I would vote Yes.

Sheeps

I don't know what nama is or what it does so I don't really give a shit.

Dionysus

Voted No. NAMA, as far as I can gather, is predicated upon the property bubble returning and in order for the state to get its money back it is going to devise state policy with the aim of creating another overpriced property market. I resent this stupidity and the crass support of Irish taxpayers' money for helping the eejits who paid ridiculous prices for property to get a higher return on their investment than they would get without this state intervention in the free market.

It is blatant robbing from the poor to give to those who were formerly rich/are rich. Corporate welfare at its worst.

Sheeps

Ok then, no.

My name is URL

Dionysus wrote: »

Voted No. NAMA, as far as I can gather, is predicated upon the property bubble returning and in order for the state to get its money back it is going to devise state policy with the aim of creating another overpriced property market. I resent this stupidity and the crass support of Irish taxpayers' money for helping the eejits who paid ridiculous prices for property to get a higher return on their investment than they would get without this state intervention in the free market.

It is blatant robbing from the poor to give to those who were formerly rich/are rich. Corporate welfare at its worst.

I hope people learn from their mistakes. NAMA is there to help growth once the recession dwindles out. Without it, assets would stagnate and they would have lost all value by that time. Is it not better for Ireland to be on the starting block when the global situation improves, rather than trailing behind and missing the opportunity to get off to a good start when it happens?

Min

It is great says the IMF, the interest payments on government borrowing has not risen and Moody's say we will stay in AA ratings in terms of being a safe bet to lend to.

Like it or not, the international community who we depend on are giving it the thumbs up.

dotsman

Dionysus wrote: »

Voted No. NAMA, as far as I can gather, is predicated upon the property bubble returning and in order for the state to get its money back ...

I'm afraid you haven't gathered all that much. Are you aware that an average haircut of 47% was applied to the first tranche? This means, for those loans to break even, the property market only has to be a fraction of what it was worth at the hight of the boom for NAMA to break even. Already we are seeing some house prices stabilise in desirable areas. Over the next few years, we we see those prices increase slowly (while the undesirable locations continue to fall - some going to practically zero).

PK2008

YES!! I dont know anything about NAMA but I trust my government



*Anyone seen my coat?*

orourkeda

Everyone seems to be anti NAMA.

I've yet to heard a credible or viable alternative. I wouldnt be voting simply because I've been too lazy and worn out by it to find out how NAMA works.

I know that this is probably stating the obvious bit there has to be more to this than simply saving the irish banking sector. This is what worries me about the whole thing. What the real motivation behind it is.

bonerm

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWlz1IKWfw4

Lenihan has lost a lot of weight since this clip. He must be sticking to his new-years resolution.

Piste

I don't really understand NAMA, and I'm not sure if I could be educated enough on the subject before a referendum came around to make an educated vote, so I'd abstain and let the people who know what they're voting for make the decision.

orourkeda

Dionysus wrote: »

Voted No. NAMA, as far as I can gather, is predicated upon the property bubble returning and in order for the state to get its money back it is going to devise state policy with the aim of creating another overpriced property market. I resent this stupidity and the crass support of Irish taxpayers' money for helping the eejits who paid ridiculous prices for property to get a higher return on their investment than they would get without this state intervention in the free market.

It is blatant robbing from the poor to give to those who were formerly rich/are rich. Corporate welfare at its worst.

When times were good, we were told that it was impossible to lose on an investment in property.

On the other hand, people are now doubtful as to whether an investment in property will ever yield a return.

Now I'm not an expert on these matters by any means but how is anyone supposed to know for sure how these things will work themselves out in the future. No matter what happens it looks as though we are all going to have to cross our fingers and hope for the best

flynnlives

No, no, no

Remember we were told that NAMA was introduced so we wouldn't have to nationalise the banks!
Now we are looking at state ownership for both AIB and BOI. We also have the noose around our necks that is the state guarantee.

create the good bank bad bank plan, settle with the bondholders, and screw the developers. You take the risk, now take the pain.
Let the market find its own way, after all this is supposed to be a capitalist system, isn't it?

In one struck of the pen the Irish state has become the worlds largest property group. Who pays for this, we do!
All to save a few rich FF Friends. Just today Lenny has called the bottom ofthe market! lol! They are beyond any credibility at this stage!


Someone stated this will position us well for the upcoming recovery, lol! We already missed that, England, Germany and the states are now officially out of recession.
We on the other hand have 13.4% unemployment, businesses going to the wall, massive negative equity, no leadership, NAMA, bank guarantee, nationalisation, no plan and a massive mortgage default just around the corner. WE ARE SCREWED!

If you want to see the true horror we are facing read this: http://www.feasta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=917 or Morgan Kellys excellent
review and forecast of our property bubble. http://www.ucd.ie/t4cms/wp09.32.pdf

yoshytoshy

Why does a small country like ours need to worried about our mistakes ,when countries like a america have massive debts and use quantitive easing ?

Of course the imf thinks nama is great ,we're taking on the burden that other countries turn a blind eye to.

The Aussie

I would vote a big NO, simply because this failed leadership under control of a a BIFFO who took over from "Blow J*b brttie" should admit they are so far out of their depth its unbelievable , if FF told me it was Easter Sunday i would still not believe them.

Im still trying to figure out why the whole country is/has to pay for the greed of so few people, but not only that every man woman and child will be paying for the greed of so few for decades, the history books will judge these shower of w*nkers very poorly

K-9

Deleted User wrote: »

Im assuming its like the Icelandic vote - if the people refuse the Govts proposal they have to go back to the drawing board

Except the problem there is the British and Dutch Govts. want their money back and no amount of stomping feet is going to change that.

They can't access IMF or Scandinavian loans until that issue is sorted. Would be a bit of a problem when we need €25 Billion to run the damn country.

Dartz

It's a scary ****ing thing...

But the more you read into it, the more it starts to make sense. It's a bugger of a gamble, but far better than doing nothing at all. In fairness to Minister Lenihan, at least he can say he ****ing tried to come up with a workable solution... a solution far better than letting Anglo drop like a ****e into the toilet and drag the entire banking system down with it.

It's bloody annoying because it gives the perception that those who caused this mess, are getting away with it. I for one, am hoping the ongoing investigation bears fruit (And it does explain why the government have been cautious not to denounce the bankers, for fear of prejudicing a jury)

Liam Byrne

Dartz wrote: »

In fairness to Minister Lenihan, at least he can say he ****ing tried to come up with a workable solution... a solution far better than letting Anglo drop like a ****e into the toilet and drag the entire banking system down with it.

Considering he's the one that ridiculously guaranteed Anglo, he has no credibility.

NAMA on it's own MIGHT be palatable, given the discount relatively realistic prices given.

NAMA while simultaneously shoring up the shortfall by nationalising Anglo and paying a fortune that will never pay off is a lose-lose situation.

SugarHigh

bonerm wrote: »

Lenihan has lost a lot of weight since this clip. He must be sticking to his new-years resolution.

This is bad.:D

SugarHigh

K-9 wrote: »

Except the problem there is the British and Dutch Govts. want their money back and no amount of stomping feet is going to change that.

They can't access IMF or Scandinavian loans until that issue is sorted. Would be a bit of a problem when we need €25 Billion to run the damn country.

They turned down the offer because they had already received a better one by the time of the referendum.

MickShamrock

Don't know enough about it, so I wouldn't vote.

K-9

SugarHigh wrote: »

They turned down the offer because they had already received a better one by the time of the referendum.

Yes, but still no loans which is kind of important to us at the minute, when we have to borrow 50% of our day to day costs.

Nothing has been agreed yet, AFAIK.

thetonynator

I support NAMA, but I don't support the ridiculous salaries being paid to politicians, bank staff CEO's Nama staff etc . . . .

Down

Voted NO, as the Irish Tax payer is being charged 7 billion euro for the pleasure of bailing out corrupt bankers. 77 Billion in toxic loans bought by Nama for 54 Billion with a current market value of 47 Billion!

No thanks, but hang on it's already happened! Cheers Biffo you did us proud!

Gigiwagga

snyper wrote: »

Like the possible alternative governments and "paddy on the barstool" they only have a ney to what is suggested or implemented. Void of ideas.

So, you mean NAMA is an idea, yeah right, like an idea thought up by whom exactly, hmmmm let's see, oh right, the governments financial advisors. Lets the bond holder/risk takers burn I say. I invested in f*** all why the jesus should I enable the bunch of slimy ****. Let them sink to the bottom with their sh***y investments. Remind me again Mister Rightous why Paddy on the bar stool has to give his two kidneys to save the steaming pile that is Anglo, and if the guarantee is the reason, then why aren't the two Brians behind bars tonight.

Hey snyper, do you sell either, insurance, 'banking products' or real estate, just wonderin'

johnnyskeleton

orourkeda wrote: »

Everyone seems to be anti NAMA.

I've yet to heard a credible or viable alternative. I wouldnt be voting simply because I've been too lazy and worn out by it to find out how NAMA works.

I know that this is probably stating the obvious bit there has to be more to this than simply saving the irish banking sector. This is what worries me about the whole thing. What the real motivation behind it is.

Viable alternative? How about not overpaying for land then keeping it from the market for 10+ years. How about selling it on the open market for whatever it will fetch. For example, field in Offaly bought for 20m now worth 200k, at least at 200k it can be used by a farmer to raise cattle and improve exports as opposed to just sitting there for 10 years. The banks realise the loss now rather than later, but there's no point pretending things aren't as bad as they are.

Guy:Incognito

Deleted User wrote: »

or maybe your stuck commuting from Donegal to Cork in a one bed apartment that you thought would be worth a million by now if it werent for Mc Dowell screwing up the stamp duty that time?

Commuting in a mobile one bed apartment you say?

thetonynator

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Viable alternative? How about not overpaying for land then keeping it from the market for 10+ years. How about selling it on the open market for whatever it will fetch. For example, field in Offaly bought for 20m now worth 200k, at least at 200k it can be used by a farmer to raise cattle and improve exports as opposed to just sitting there for 10 years. The banks realise the loss now rather than later, but there's no point pretending things aren't as bad as they are.

It won't sit their idle, it will be rented out at approx €150 per acre per year (€425 per hectare) and used by a farmer until the value of the land grows sufficently ( which it will in the next 10 years) for it to be sold at less of a loss.

http://sites.google.com/a/contender.ie/www/bunreachtnaheireanntheirishconstitutionarticle27

A majority of the members of Seanad Éireann and not less than one-third of the members of Dáil Éireann may by a joint petition addressed to the President by them under this Article request the President to decline to sign and promulgate as a law any Bill to which this article applies on the ground that the Bill contains a proposal of such national importance that the will of the people thereon ought to be ascertained.

:eek: :mad:


:rolleyes: oh well

I say NO, the only problem is that there isn't any real alternative, based on the current financial model used by most countries of the world!
NAMA is just a paper printing exercise that will involve our children stuffing large bundles of notes into a black hole!
The current banking system is on life support, it's very existance is dependant on growth, infinite growth, after "peak oil" the financial world will contract indefinitely, killing the fiat currencies that depend on growth for their very existance.

A return to a gold or any other physical (valuable) commodity based currency would be the eventual outcome of this fiasco.

Jazzy

um, isnt this why we voted in these people? to, ya know, make these hard decisions that we dont quite understand

Jazzy

Jazzy wrote: »

um, isnt this why we voted in these people? to, ya know, make these hard decisions that we dont quite understand

A bit like the turkeys voting for which farmer is going to pluck them!

thetonynator

Deleted User wrote: »

A bit like the turkeys voting for which farmer is going to pluck them!

fianna fail, fine gael all the same we'll all get stuffed anyway.

Senna

The main reason for NAMA was to get credit flowing to business again. NAMA will not have this effect, the banks are under no obligation to lend.

The international community thinks NAMA is a good idea because it take the debt off our institutions and onto the tax payers, far less risky for investors.

thetonynator

Senna wrote: »

The main reason for NAMA was to get credit flowing to business again. NAMA will not have this effect, the banks are under no obligation to lend.

The international community thinks NAMA is a good idea because it take the debt off our institutions and onto the tax payers, far less risky for investors.

if the banks are nationalised, shouldn't the government get to decide who they loan money to???

More loans, a bit like giving a hungover alcoholic another drink!

genericguy

I'm glad i read this thread, because i'm having the worst week i can recall and remembering this post by darkjager has made my day:

DarkJager wrote: »

Nama gonna give you up,
Nama gonna let you down,
Nama gonna run around and desert you,
Nama gonna make you cry,
Nama gonna say goodbye,
Nama gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Darkjager is a fcuking poet.


Now somebody hug me.

brianthebard

orourkeda wrote: »

Everyone seems to be anti NAMA.

I've yet to heard a credible or viable alternative. I wouldnt be voting simply because I've been too lazy and worn out by it to find out how NAMA works.

Every other option would be preferable to NAMA, even NAMA with more guarantees and improvements could be better than it is now. FG's good bank proposal or Labour's nationalisation proposal would both cost less, give the government more control, allow the government to use the properties involved (nationalisation) and make a profit quicker than NAMA. Its just as well you wouldn't vote on this issue because you clearly have not tried very hard to find out what the alternatives are.

cock robin

My name is URL wrote: »

I hope people learn from their mistakes. NAMA is there to help growth once the recession dwindles out. Without it, assets would stagnate and they would have lost all value by that time. Is it not better for Ireland to be on the starting block when the global situation improves, rather than trailing behind and missing the opportunity to get off to a good start when it happens?

Sorry but the assets to which you refer were over valued to begin with. This was encouraged because it kept the money moving from lenders to developers & estate agents to the public, who were so desperate to get on the "property ladder" that lenders actively lent money to those people who were least likely to repay it. Our economy thrived becuase of it and died becuase of it. It must never happen again. We surrendered our most indeginous of industries (agriculture,fishing,food) so we could build shrines to bankers and developers. Everybody is guilty to some degree. But those that were most responsible will suffer the least as is always the way. NAMA is there to protect the wealthy from the poor. They will remain wealthy and the poor will remain poor. An goverment such as ours allowed to go unchecked our entire banking industry would now have us believe that they can repair the damage. I dont think so, do you ? Surely we can do better as a nation than stand by while they sun themselves under a cloudless sky while we stare into the abyss and Q in the rain for a passport.