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Measuring Irish Oil Dependency

  • 03-04-2010 9:40pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 109 ✭✭


    In light of the discussion about peak oil, I decided to explore Irish oil dependency. This post will contain several graphs to benchmark where we are and then hopefully we can start the discussion on how Ireland could alter our dependence.

    Figure 1 shows the history of Irish oil consumption. In 1965, we consumed 20mb/yr (million barrels per year), this rose to 45mb/d in 1978 then plunged to 30mb/yr during the '80s. Then demand rocketed up to 71mb/yr in 2006, before declining to 69mb/yr in 2008. Data source: BP Statistical Review of World Energy. BP's figures overstate consumption by several mb/d but the trends are the same
    2vkc7wx.png

    Figure 2 shows the breakdown of Irish primary energy from 1990-2008. It then takes SEAI's forecast from December 2009 out to 2020. The forecast by SEAI assumes we meet all renewable targets, and incorporates the expected savings from the government's White Paper and other initiatives like the Sustainable Transport Action Plan.

    The hashed efficiency section is the difference between SEAI's reference scenario and the gains expected from government initiatives. Historical data here, forecast data here. SEAI used the ESRI's optimistic 'world recovery' scenario, which has Ireland growing on average from 2010-2015 by 5.2% and by 3.3% from 2015-2020. It can be seen that even with the assumed 250,000 Electric Vehicles and with 8% of transport energy coming from biofuels by 2020, oil consumption does not materially drop from current levels.

    According to the UK Peak Oil Task Force global oil production capacity will peak and then plateau next year at about 91mb/d. When global demand (currently about 84mb/d) reaches production capacity depends on world GDP growth. A strong recovery and it happens around 2014, a weaker one maybe 2018.

    66ywbd.png

    Figure 3 shows the Figure 2 data in a more digestible format, ie the proportionate breakdown of Irish energy consumption. It is seen that even with the introduction of 15% of renewables, oil still counts for over 50% of Irish Primary Energy Requirement (PER).

    i2pm2w.png

    So it's safe to say that current government policies do not address our oil dependency. We are one of the most oil dependent societies there is. Figure 4 shows this. Data from BP & SEAI.

    sgn39y.png

    Figure 5 shows the makeup of our oil demand. Data from SEAI. You can see that Irish oil consumption is quite fragmented. Our consumption is perhaps 5% lower due to fuel tourism, which is SEAI's estimate. Our consumption is 50% on transport and 50% other. The easy gains have already been made, with the reduction in oil fired power generation. The nation's 2.5m cars account for 25%, road freight another 10%, buses and rail only a few %, and then international flights (mainly for junkets) accounts for 10%. Residential heating accounts for 15% of our oil consumption.

    2nv3x5l.png

    Ok, that's enough graphs. Time to get your input.
    • How aware do you think the general population are about peak oil?
    • Is concern about peak oil warranted?
    • How would a spike up to say $150/bbl affect your discretionary expenditure?
    • Do you heat your home with oil? Did you cut back on useage with the 07/08 price spike? Are there any other viable options for you?
    • The typical Irish petrol car travels 15,000km (diesel 25,000) per year. How much of those miles do you think are discretionary? Is cycling/public transport a viable alternative for much of these kms?
    • Politicians are aware of Peak Oil. They include Eamon Ryan, George Lee, Liz McManus, Simon Coveney, Sean Barrett, and so on. Yet they don't seem to be tackling it head on. Oil consumption is targeted obliquely through climate change. Why the reluctance - is it because it doesn't sell well on the doorstep?
    Thanks.


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    How would a spike up to say $150/bbl affect your discretionary expenditure?

    I'm guessing that would be about €1.60/70 per ltr. Its not a life changer. It would probably affect the Americans more. However it would affect consumer consumption, fuel and other high embedded energy products would take up a bigger % of peoples income so something would have to give.

    Is concern about peak oil warranted?

    I think in the medium term 5 to 10 years people will adjust and would barely notice PO. the longer term is more interesting and one would hope from a European perspective that there would be a gradual shift away from oil/gas energy electricity production to a nuclear backbone with all the other good stuff supporting at the edge.

    It would seem to be a transportation issue first. However people will still be able to get from A to B , it just maybe by bus rather then car.

    It would call into question the ability of countries like China and India to continue developing as they are at the moment.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,620 ✭✭✭Heroditas


    Ok, that's enough graphs. Time to get your input.
    • How aware do you think the general population are about peak oil?
    • Is concern about peak oil warranted?
    • How would a spike up to say $150/bbl affect your discretionary expenditure?
    • Do you heat your home with oil? Did you cut back on useage with the 07/08 price spike? Are there any other viable options for you?
    • The typical Irish petrol car travels 15,000km (diesel 25,000) per year. How much of those miles do you think are discretionary? Is cycling/public transport a viable alternative for much of these kms?
    • Politicians are aware of Peak Oil. They include Eamon Ryan, George Lee, Liz McManus, Simon Coveney, Sean Barrett, and so on. Yet they don't seem to be tackling it head on. Oil consumption is targeted obliquely through climate change. Why the reluctance - is it because it doesn't sell well on the doorstep?
    Thanks.



    I'll attempt to answer these questions from my own point of view:
    (Cracking post by the way)

    • How aware do you think the general population are about peak oil?

    The general population isn't the slightest bit aware about peak oil.
    They are simply aware of climate change, rising energy prices and CO2. That's all that is focussed on by the media

    Ok, that's enough graphs. Time to get your input.
    • Is concern about peak oil warranted?

    I'm honestly not too sure. Peak oil seems to be constantly "imminent" or "just around the corner".
    Technology is continually advancing so the peak will keep moving

    • How would a spike up to say $150/bbl affect your discretionary expenditure?

    It wouldn't affect my discretionary expenditure. I might use my car a bit less if I was going out but apart from that, I would carry on as normal.
    Petrol accounts for quite a small % of my annual expenditure

    • Do you heat your home with oil? Did you cut back on useage with the 07/08 price spike? Are there any other viable options for you?


    No I use natural gas. It's the best relatively cheap option at the moment.

    • The typical Irish petrol car travels 15,000km (diesel 25,000) per year. How much of those miles do you think are discretionary? Is cycling/public transport a viable alternative for much of these kms?

    I would reckon half of those miles are discretionary. However, we're still a relatively rural population so public transport wouldn't be a viable alternative unless it's heavily subsidized.
    As a result, that would imply the public transport isn't sustainable.
    Cycling might be an option for some people

    • Politicians are aware of Peak Oil. They include Eamon Ryan, George Lee, Liz McManus, Simon Coveney, Sean Barrett, and so on. Yet they don't seem to be tackling it head on. Oil consumption is targeted obliquely through climate change. Why the reluctance - is it because it doesn't sell well on the doorstep?

    The fact is that is public knowledge is raised, the politicians will be met with the wailing and gnashing of teeth, followed by "well what are we supposed to do? Why isn't the government helping me to heat my home using different methods? WE WANT SUBSIDIES AND GRANTS!"

    Anyway, the politicians are out of their depth dealing with issues like this. SEAI are doing a very good job in this area.


    I disagree with some of the data that is used in SEAI's report and these reservations were raised by several people at the report's launch when it was released last December.
    It makes several assumptions that were wrong and out of date


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 109 ✭✭Inscrutable


    Thanks Silverharp.
    I'm guessing that would be about €1.60/70 per ltr. Its not a life changer. It would probably affect the Americans more. However it would affect consumer consumption, fuel and other high embedded energy products would take up a bigger % of peoples income so something would have to give.

    Good point. About half the forecourt price in the EU is tax. So a doubling of price only leads to a 50% increase. For someone on the dole or minimum wage, would petrol be a significant expense? In America, tax is much less. Anything that comes to Ireland requires oil-based transport. For some things, like steel, oil is a significant proportion of the retail price. Have you seen anything on how much embedded oil we import in e.g. clothes (polyester is oil)?
    I think in the medium term 5 to 10 years people will adjust and would barely notice PO. the longer term is more interesting and one would hope from a European perspective that there would be a gradual shift away from oil/gas energy electricity production to a nuclear backbone with all the other good stuff supporting at the edge.

    If peak oil implies high oil prices, and that implies a reduction in consumer spending, particularly American consumers, is that not a harbinger of recession? The principal use of oil is in transportation as Figure 1 shows. Source here. Eighteen percent is used for heating and power. The OECD, Ireland included, have largely removed oil from power generation due to the 1973, 1979 and 2003-2008 oil price shocks. Heating has, where economical, been switched to natural gas. The Middle East still uses some oil in power production, but that's because in Saudi Arabia, for example, utilities are by law entitled to buy oil at $3/barrel.

    33jtvti.png

    It would seem to be a transportation issue first. However people will still be able to get from A to B , it just maybe by bus rather then car.

    Right, people might be able to use buses. However that still requires energy, oil based energy. I haven't tried to get figures for Ireland, but Figure 2 shows the American experience with the energy intensity of various transport options.

    The figures compiled by the US Bureau of Transportation Statistics show that the passenger mile consumption of oil by buses is only marginally better than passenger cars. Bearing in mind that Irish cars are much more efficient than American cars, I'd be interested to see how things square for the Irish situation. Buses travelling half empty to the back arse of Mayo might not be that fuel efficient.
    2vbmvzc.png
    It would call into question the ability of countries like China and India to continue developing as they are at the moment.
    It certainly could. However the marginal utility of a barrel of oil is much higher in China than in Ireland, and the Chinese government also subsidises oil prices. Millions of Chinese dream of owning a car, and their economy has continued to grow robustly despite a high oil price, with the Chinese middle class expanding rapidly. Figure 3 shows Chinese car sales.
    saupload_mi_mc_072109_gibley_emerging_chart_2_chinese.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 109 ✭✭Inscrutable


    Thanks Heroditas.
    Heroditas wrote: »
    I'm honestly not too sure. Peak oil seems to be constantly "imminent" or "just around the corner".
    Technology is continually advancing so the peak will keep moving
    You've probably been following oil longer than me, and certain folk have been predicting the exact date of peak oil for years, which can lead to peak oil fatigue! However if you read this pdf of a Scientific American article from 1998 by Colin Campbell he actually predicted the peak roughly around 2010. Figure 1 shows production versus discoveries. I'm not sure what aspect of technology you speak of, but in terms of finding oil, there seems to be no correlation with oil price or indeed the better technology of oil firms.

    Here's a 2008 quote from the Conoco Philips.
    Could we spend $20 billion or $25 billion [on exploration]? Absolutely," Conoco spokesman Gary Russell said at the time. "Could we do it effectively, in a way that provides ultimate value to our shareholders? Probably not.
    Oil companies have been diversifying away from oil for years. They have been buying back shares instead of investing in new production. They've been buying up natural gas companies. They've been investing in very expensive ($80/barrel) tar sands. Why? Because it's getting increasingly difficult to justify the great risk involved with offshore drilling ($100m per hole drilled).
    1tjybc.png
    Heroditas wrote: »
    It wouldn't affect my discretionary expenditure. I might use my car a bit less if I was going out but apart from that, I would carry on as normal.
    Petrol accounts for quite a small % of my annual expenditure
    You seem smart, so I'm going to guess you earn above the average wage. Your attitude is what I expect of most people - oil demand is relatively inelastic because it's a smallish part of the overall budget. The same appears evident in America, that people grumble but take the pain, until a break point is reached, which is apparently around $4/gallon.
    Heroditas wrote: »
    No I use natural gas. It's the best relatively cheap option at the moment.
    I do too, but I suppose we're lucky because we have that option. I think I read that 630,000 homes use natural gas. The rest, apart from a smattering of wood chip boilers, use oil. The economics of natural gas pipeline expansion depend on population density, unfortunately Ireland is not dense. Would you know anything about the possibility of expanding the natural gas network?

    Heroditas wrote: »
    I would reckon half of those miles are discretionary. However, we're still a relatively rural population so public transport wouldn't be a viable alternative unless it's heavily subsidized.
    As a result, that would imply the public transport isn't sustainable.
    Cycling might be an option for some people
    Good point re public transport economics. I live in Dublin and cycle, it's grand for getting around. Is it as easy to cycle in places like Cork or Galway?
    Heroditas wrote: »
    The fact is that is public knowledge is raised, the politicians will be met with the wailing and gnashing of teeth, followed by "well what are we supposed to do? Why isn't the government helping me to heat my home using different methods? WE WANT SUBSIDIES AND GRANTS!"

    Hehe, true.
    Heroditas wrote: »
    Anyway, the politicians are out of their depth dealing with issues like this. SEAI are doing a very good job in this area.
    I'm not convinced SEAI are on top of this. If you read their latest 5 year plan, there is not one mention of peak oil. In their security of supply review from 2007 they mentioned it in passing, and then said they would commission a further report on Irish vulnerability. I can't find that report on their website.
    Heroditas wrote: »
    I disagree with some of the data that is used in SEAI's report and these reservations were raised by several people at the report's launch when it was released last December.
    It makes several assumptions that were wrong and out of date
    What were the aspects you disagreed with?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    For someone on the dole or minimum wage, would petrol be a significant expense?

    Indeed, the pool of people for whom driving is a option would drop or miles driven would drop. However it wouldnt be a problem that needs a remedy. Nobody has a "right" to personal transportation anymore then I have a right to own my own jet. The very act of people giving up cars would increase the economic incentive to invest in other forms of transportation.

    Anything that comes to Ireland requires oil-based transport. For some things, like steel, oil is a significant proportion of the retail price. Have you seen anything on how much embedded oil we import in e.g. clothes (polyester is oil)?

    Again agree, the particular mix of consumer products and food we see on our shelves is largely due to cheap oil. Not sure what effect $150 would have on the price of everything but overall demand for "stuff" would have to fall and there would be different effects depending where you live on the globe.
    If peak oil implies high oil prices, and that implies a reduction in consumer spending, particularly American consumers, is that not a harbinger of recession? The principal use of oil is in transportation as Figure 1 shows. Source here. Eighteen percent is used for heating and power. The OECD, Ireland included, have largely removed oil from power generation due to the 1973, 1979 and 2003-2008 oil price shocks. Heating has, where economical, been switched to natural gas. The Middle East still uses some oil in power production, but that's because in Saudi Arabia, for example, utilities are by law entitled to buy oil at $3/barrel.

    I fully expect the global recession to continue on and off for the next 10 to 15 years, so if PO occurs during this time it will be hard to measure its specific effects. But if we have "high" oil prices while in a recession then it will magnify the effects
    You are right, not much oil is used to produce electricity. However in a PO scenario one could expect political risk of supply or exporters deciding to cap exports (unless the US threatens to visit:D). Also as there is substitution beteen oil and gas , from a European perspective it would be safer imo to embace nuclear even if there was deemed to be no current issues with NG.
    As your pie chart shows, transportation is the biggie so it will be the first area to see the biggest conservation and other changes in behaviour.


    Right, people might be able to use buses. However that still requires energy, oil based energy. I haven't tried to get figures for Ireland, but Figure 2 shows the American experience with the energy intensity of various transport options.

    The figures compiled by the US Bureau of Transportation Statistics show that the passenger mile consumption of oil by buses is only marginally better than passenger cars. Bearing in mind that Irish cars are much more efficient than American cars, I'd be interested to see how things square for the Irish situation. Buses travelling half empty to the back arse of Mayo might not be that fuel efficient.


    Your graph of bus v other forms does surprise me however I'm sure the bus would perform much better in a city environment. However one also has to assume that 50 people on a Dublin to Cork bus only uses a fraction of the fuel that 50 cars would produce not to mention the saving in capital cost of gradually replacing a fleet of domestic cars with busses and coaches. I did come across something that flying beteen NY and DC and taking a train only had a 30% difference
    You are right about one thing, people hoping for cheap transport in the back of beyond will be disappointed, so as per the thread I had recently on Green politics the sooner the gov gets out of subsidising the ability to live anywhere the better.

    It certainly could. However the marginal utility of a barrel of oil is much higher in China than in Ireland, and the Chinese government also subsidises oil prices. Millions of Chinese dream of owning a car, and their economy has continued to grow robustly despite a high oil price, with the Chinese middle class expanding rapidly. Figure 3 shows Chinese car sales.

    yep, I honestly dont know which way it will go , one could argue that the Chinese economy is a bubble , or that given that they run an economy on less oil per person then the west that they will win in the efficiency stakes. One thing for sure is that a falling oil supply will reduce global trade

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,620 ✭✭✭Heroditas


    What were the aspects you disagreed with?


    I'll have to read through it again but what jumped out at the time was the fact that for their projections on increased energy usage over the next ten years, there were two errors:

    1. Their figures didn't take into account the 6% demand drop in 2009

    2. The projected growth was based on energy growth figures from the 90s through to the present day. We have no large heavy industry setting up here similar to HP, Intel, Pfizer etc. These are all massive energy users and contributed greatly to the increased demand. There's very few projects like these in the pipeline so the "expected" demand increase does not take this into account


    These errors were pointed out at the time of the launch by an attendee and there was little or no argument from SEAI regarding the two points.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 93,581 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    The same appears evident in America, that people grumble but take the pain, until a break point is reached, which is apparently around $4/gallon.
    €1.30 per litre * 1.347 $/€ * 3.785 L / US Gallon

    we are paying $6.63/US gallon already , so you can probably ignore the $4 'limit' if they gradually raise the price of that addictive substance like they raise the duty on ciggies and booze

    If US commuters moved from SUV's to Japanese/European sized diesels their commuting costs could fall 50% (cba looking up, it's a guesstimate) allowing for a higher price per litre for the same spend. One solution for cheap oil is to use less of it to do the same job.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,620 ✭✭✭Heroditas


    €1.30 per litre * 1.347 $/€ * 3.785 L / US Gallon

    we are paying $6.63/US gallon already , so you can probably ignore the $4 'limit' if they gradually raise the price of that addictive substance like they raise the duty on ciggies and booze

    If US commuters moved from SUV's to Japanese/European sized diesels their commuting costs could fall 50% (cba looking up, it's a guesstimate) allowing for a higher price per litre for the same spend. One solution for cheap oil is to use less of it to do the same job.


    Inscrutable is talking about US consumers in that instance though.

    Regarding the US, I don't really know if there could be a tipping point. It's not as if many US people even have the option of public transport so even if petrol still continues to rise in price, they'll still need to use their cars!

    However, as you said, moving to more fuel-efficient cars will limit the hit on their pockets.


  • Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The current recession has probably delayed PO by a year or so, simply because fewer are driving to work and fewer "leisure" car journeys are being made.

    One thing that is noticable is the fact that China is continuing to take up any slack in demand, thus there has been no let-up in demand, it had plateaued over the past 5 years or so. The Chinese have continued with the manufacture of many of the "toys" the west desire.

    Any real attempts to grow the economy in the near future will cause rapid rises in oil prices again

    Only today the BBC reported this
    Oil price up amid jobs joy in US

    Oil prices have risen amid growing optimism that improved US job creation will boost economic recovery and lead to higher demand for crude.

    In the first day of trading after the Easter break, US light crude added 1.51% to reach $86.64 a barrel

    PO at the moment is more an issue of demand exceeding supply rather than the future diminishing of supply.

    In the short/medium term any efforts to reduce oil consumption needs to be aimed to getting jobs near people or people near jobs to reduce the volume of commuter traffic as much as possible, it may soon be necessary to lower the speed limit on the motorways.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I actually think we hit peak oil in 2008..


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  • Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]



    Ok, that's enough graphs. Time to get your input.

    [*]How aware do you think the general population are about peak oil?
    Most have no idea, as already mentioned, they are suffering information overload from the CO2 global warming climate change warnings.

    [*]Is concern about peak oil warranted?
    Yes, as it will creep up over the next decade and most people will only notice when there is a substantial rise in fuel prices AND a rapid rise in the cost of food and other essentials.


    [*]How would a spike up to say $150/bbl affect your discretionary expenditure?

    It wouldn't affect me much as I mostly use the car for commuting to work, the wife would have to cut back though!


    [*]Do you heat your home with oil? Did you cut back on useage with the 07/08 price spike? Are there any other viable options for you?

    Oil is the primary heat source here, but I built the house to exceed the building regs on insulation by a factor of two. I also have a solid fuel (wood, turf etc) boiler & solar panels to suplement the oil.
    [*]The typical Irish petrol car travels 15,000km (diesel 25,000) per year. How much of those miles do you think are discretionary? Is cycling/public transport a viable alternative for much of these kms?

    For me less that 10% and there is no viable alternative to using the car short of moving house or changing jobs.

    [*]Politicians are aware of Peak Oil. They include Eamon Ryan, George Lee, Liz McManus, Simon Coveney, Sean Barrett, and so on. Yet they don't seem to be tackling it head on. Oil consumption is targeted obliquely through climate change. Why the reluctance - is it because it doesn't sell well on the doorstep?
    Thanks.

    PO is a real problem, and telling voters that their childrens lifestyles will eventually revert that lived in the "pre-oil" days, no cars, lots of manual labour, possible food shortages etc, there's no chance of getting elected!


  • Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I actually think we hit peak oil in 2008..

    The oil speculators who drove the price up to $140 a barrel certainly thought so as well, were it not for the economic downturn, it's quite possible it would have been.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,167 ✭✭✭SeanW


    * Is concern about peak oil warranted?
    Not really. We've had "peak oil fatigue" for some years now, indeed I recall P.O. being given as the reason for the surge in '07 and '08.

    As to why I don't worry about Peak Oil, it's because the price of oil will not surge rapidly, there will be time for an orderly change: that is, there will be time for new car buyers to buy electric, hydrogen, LNG, LPG cars etc. Long term I think hyrdogen energy storage is the best bet, since electric-battery cars have to be specially designed to expend the least amount of energy from a limited battery, hydrogen fits in tanks, and in that sense can be a near drop in replacement for buses, trains, agricultural vehicles, lorries and whatnot.
    I can also imagine nuclear superfreighters replacing oil fired superfreighters in international trade, in much the same way that nuclear energy has already effectively replaced traditional fuels powering aircraft carriers.

    In short, I'm not one for big time doom and gloom, even if peak oill is nearhand.

    * How would a spike up to say $150/bbl affect your discretionary expenditure?
    Hard to say

    * Do you heat your home with oil? Did you cut back on useage with the 07/08 price spike? Are there any other viable options for you?
    Yes. Could prob use Gas instead, but geothermal would require taking out some serious loans for the equipment.

    * The typical Irish petrol car travels 15,000km (diesel 25,000) per year. How much of those miles do you think are discretionary? Is cycling/public transport a viable alternative for much of these kms?
    Not really any.

    * Politicians are aware of Peak Oil. They include Eamon Ryan, George Lee, Liz McManus, Simon Coveney, Sean Barrett, and so on. Yet they don't seem to be tackling it head on. Oil consumption is targeted obliquely through climate change. Why the reluctance - is it because it doesn't sell well on the doorstep?
    The politicians didn't see the financial crisis coming (despite many of them having caused it, worldwide) and I shouldn't consider them as having the solutions to anything. That is, even if there is a AGW or PO crisis coming, of which I am convinced of neither.


  • Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    SeanW wrote: »
    * Is concern about peak oil warranted?
    Not really. We've had "peak oil fatigue" for some years now, indeed I recall P.O. being given as the reason for the surge in '07 and '08.

    As to why I don't worry about Peak Oil, it's because the price of oil will not surge rapidly, there will be time for an orderly change: that is, there will be time for new car buyers to buy electric, hydrogen, LNG, LPG cars etc. .
    Like this you mean.
    109967.jpg
    Oil prices have been creeping up now for the past three years or so, if you ignore the spike and overshoot in 2008.

    PO is a "boiling frog" type of problem, but with the chinese taking up the slack there is every risk of panic buying in the future,


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,620 ✭✭✭Heroditas


    PO is a "boiling frog" type of problem, but with the chinese taking up the slack there is every risk of panic buying in the future,


    There's oodles of capacity.
    Production was cut in 2009 to artificially prop up the price.


  • Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Heroditas wrote: »
    There's oodles of capacity.
    Production was cut in 2009 to artificially prop up the price.

    OPEC oil production has been projected to peak in about 2025, but it has been an issue that they are having dificulties in keeping up with demand as the non-OPEC fields are already in decline.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,620 ✭✭✭Heroditas


    OPEC oil production has been projected to peak in about 2025, but it has been an issue that they are having dificulties in keeping up with demand as the non-OPEC fields are already in decline.

    It's also a question of economics.
    The higher the price, the more of the "less economical" fields that are drilled


  • Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Heroditas wrote: »
    It's also a question of economics.
    The higher the price, the more of the "less economical" fields that are drilled

    Very true, the Canadian tar-sands will soon be viable again. But you also need to consider the "cost" in oil to produce the oil, for example I believe the tar-sands require the consumption of the equivalent of one barrel to produce five barrels so for every one million extracted about 200 thousand are lost in the production process.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 93,581 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    SeanW wrote: »
    Long term I think hyrdogen energy storage is the best bet, since electric-battery cars have to be specially designed to expend the least amount of energy from a limited battery, hydrogen fits in tanks, and in that sense can be a near drop in replacement for buses, trains, agricultural vehicles, lorries and whatnot.

    I can also imagine nuclear superfreighters replacing oil fired superfreighters in international trade, in much the same way that nuclear energy has already effectively replaced traditional fuels powering aircraft carriers.
    There was ONE nuclear powered merchant vessel. An awful lot of ports banned it. Ain't going to happen.

    Worst case Merchant ships will just use coal instead of oil. Diesels will get replaced with steam turbines.

    Hydrogen is a poor energy store for transport use. To compress it to any usable volume needs a strong tank and wastes about 10% of the energy on that step alone. Hydrides require a large mass too. While it is possible to make light tanks to store liquid hydrogen , it is still the lightest liquid known so you will need still need a large tank. Cooling will also use a high proportion of the energy stored.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,167 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Hydrogen is a poor energy store for transport use. To compress it to any usable volume needs a strong tank and wastes about 10% of the energy on that step alone. Hydrides require a large mass too. While it is possible to make light tanks to store liquid hydrogen , it is still the lightest liquid known so you will need still need a large tank. Cooling will also use a high proportion of the energy stored.
    Yes, but think about it. Suppose you have a farm that needs a whole load of new agricultural equipment, and oil (diesel) isn't viable, because of PO, carbon taxes or whatever. Then what? You look for equipment uses the next most viable fuel source, that could be LPG or something. If the equipment were well designed, hydrogen might be an option. It wouldn't likely be electric battery for anything that heavy, unless that technology advances quite sharply.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 109 ✭✭Inscrutable


    I'll add my two cents about hydrogen, because as it happens I've to do a presentation on the hydrogen economy tomorrow.

    Firstly, hydrogen is not an energy source, it is an energy carrier. You always lose energy when you use hydrogen. Figure 1 shows the 'net energy cliff' diagram, which some of you may have seen before. When we found oil 100 odd years ago, it took very little energy to extract. These days you have to construct vast platforms, with miles of steel to extract it. Heavier oil, the kind increasingly being produced, requires more processing energy to refine it. You must invest energy to make energy. And, even with oil, the return you get on this investment is steadily declining.

    You would not be able to power modern society on less than an EROI (energy return on investment) of 5. Tar sands, corn ethanol, and especially hydrogen (it's a negative energy sink) fall below this threshold.
    2ih6xrp.png

    So you have to make hydrogen from something. A couple of the candidates for this are wind, solar and nuclear. The idea is that you convert the electricity output into hydrogen whenever the sun is shining or wind blowing, store it in a tank under your gaff, then reconvert it to electricity whenever you please, or transfer it to your hydrogen car. However, when you change from electricity to hydrogen and back again, you lose 60% of the originial energy.

    When you combine this loss with the energy needed to make the wind turbines, solar panels and nuclear stations in the first place, the returns get fairly marginal. If you were to add in the energy needed for the countless fuel cells, hydrogen pipelines and so forth, it could push wind and nuclear off the cliff.
    xfua1w.jpg

    When you try converting the electricity output to transportation energy, it gets worse, with only 25% or so reaching the wheels, the same as a combustion engine, as Figure 3 shows.
    sbpz84.png

    This compares with 86% for electric vehicles as Figure 4 shows.
    ff7220.png

    If Irish onshore wholesale wind costs 7c/kWh (my guess), and petrol excluding taxes, @$80/barrel, costs 50c/litre (5c/kWh), then your cost per mile will be 40% higher for hydrogen. Also, with Ireland's 65TWh of transport energy in 2008, you would need 25 GW of wind (1GW of wind @ 30% capacity factor = 2.6 TWh). There's about 10GW of onshore wind potential, with lots more offshore & wave, but that's more expensive again.

    Add to that the fact that hydrogen is a terrible energy carrier. Its volumetric energy density is quite horrible. Your options are to compress it to super high pressures (700 bar) or super low temperatures (-250C) in order to increase energy density. At 700 bar hydrogen contains 5MJ/litre, versus 35MJ for diesel/gasoline (Figure 5). The efficiency is about double once in the car, so the effective energy contained would be 10MJ/litre. Still, for the same sized tank, you'll only go 1/3 as far as a gasoline engine.
    213nv4.png

    Furthermore, all existing pipelines and other infrastructure is incompatible with hydrogen, because it leaks through everything and also causes steel embrittlement.

    I'll leave you with George Bush's 2003 quote:
    “Hydrogen power will dramatically reduce greenhouse gas admissions”


  • Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Figure 5 shows the makeup of our oil demand. Data from SEAI. You can see that Irish oil consumption is quite fragmented. Our consumption is perhaps 5% lower due to fuel tourism, which is SEAI's estimate. Our consumption is 50% on transport and 50% other. The easy gains have already been made, with the reduction in oil fired power generation. The nation's 2.5m cars account for 25%, road freight another 10%, buses and rail only a few %, and then international flights (mainly for junkets) accounts for 10%. Residential heating accounts for 15% of our oil consumption.

    2nv3x5l.png

    .

    Looking at the oil useage breakdown, it would be interesting to see each what percentage in each sector could be saved with little effort and also with little inpact on day to day living.

    For example, Logistics companies route lorries via the most fuel efficient routes rather than the quickest (for the payload). Fast food resturants reduce their use of plastic disposables, wooden chop forks instead of plastic. Most of industry is still geared to speed as in having the goods through the process as fast as possible even if it involves high energy intensive processes that could be avoided if more time was allocated to the process, for example letting something dry naturally instead of blasting it with hot air.

    The reintroduction of returnable glass bottles for milk, beer etc, where a small deposit was taken for the bottle and refunded when you returned it.

    Of course these changes will increase the cost of the goods to the consumer, but so will the increase in oil prices in the future.

    BTW what is "Fuel Tourisim"?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 109 ✭✭Inscrutable


    @ dolanbaker

    Some good suggestions.

    On efficient driving, freighters should already be incentivised to do that. In fact, as far back as 2006, USPS was already doing this. Here's a quote: "the parcel carrier has technology in its systems that help map this out routes that minimize the number of left turns the driver has to make". However I'm sure there is scope for Irish hauliers to improve, I just don't know by how much.

    Figure 1 shows the breakdown by fuel type of our oil consumption. Plastics come from the light end of the barrel of oil, or sometimes from wet gas (ie methane with some heavier hydrocarbons), I wonder if Corrib will have any of those? Petrochemical feedstocks are ethane (C2H6), propane (C3H8, the main component of Liquified Petroleum Gas (LPG)), butane (C4H10, the minor component of LPG), naptha (C5H12) & natural gasoline (mostly C5H12, with some C6H14). According to the SEAI data, this is predomninantly used in the 'electrical and optical equipment' industry subsector.

    However as we can see, it's pocket change in the scheme of things, although it makes up 10% of industry consumption (Figure 2). Doing things like recycling plastic bottles might make the casual consumer think they're making a difference. Unfortunately, they're not, and while recyling should be done, this tokenism is sometimes counter productive because people think they're doing their part. In fact they've probably used more oil driving to the recycling bank! The same effect has been witnessed in consumers' CO2 saving efforts. There's a term for it, but I can't recall it.

    biw5qw.png

    Figure 2 shows the breakdown of industry consumption by fuel type.

    2w3ateh.png

    Taking the biggest segment there, fuel oil, Figure 3 shows in what sectors consumption takes place. It's mainly in basic metals. Fuel oil could only be used to generate heat, perhaps these are metal plants which aren't on the natural gas pipeline network. Or maybe the high heat temperature can't be reached with natural gas. Either way, generating heat should already be efficient, so I'm not sure if there's scope for improvements there. Would you have any insight?
    b7nad0.png

    The wood industry uses a negligble amount of oil, only a few ktoes according to the stats.

    Fuel tourism is Nordies crossing the border to buy petrol. We buy their smirnoff, they buy our oil; a dividend of peace, I suppose. Can anyone think of other potential savings and I'll see what the data tells us?


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 93,581 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    SeanW wrote: »
    Yes, but think about it. Suppose you have a farm that needs a whole load of new agricultural equipment, and oil (diesel) isn't viable, because of PO, carbon taxes or whatever. Then what? You look for equipment uses the next most viable fuel source, that could be LPG or something. If the equipment were well designed, hydrogen might be an option. It wouldn't likely be electric battery for anything that heavy, unless that technology advances quite sharply.
    100 years ago they were using producer gas in engines.

    Producer gas can be made from just about anything flammable and water. Slap a gassifier, bit like a cylinderical stove on the side of the tractor, stoke up the fire and away you go. During WWII people here used turf to power their cars.

    It's not as efficient as you would like, takes time for the stove to heat up, you can't store the gas as it's mostly HYDROGEN and the very toxic carbon monoxide but the ability to use wood / turf / coal / straw / dried dung etc. means that farmers won't ever have to worry about running out of oil.


  • Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    @Inscrutable

    You're quite right about the false economy of some recycling, that's why I avoided mentioning it. But looking at those charts you have highlighted another issue, that is the equal reduction of consumption for all oil based products. Otherwise you still end up needing to refine the same number of barrels to provide say Diesel for example while ending up with a petrol "lake" elsewhere. Industry may need to change the type of oil product they use to bring about a real reduction in the overall consumption of crude.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 109 ✭✭Inscrutable


    @db

    An insightful comment there. It's something I came across when I was looking at the American situation. You're correct that the ratio of refined products a refinery can output are limited, which depends on how the refineries are configured. I'm not familiar with how the Whitegate refinery operates, though. Figure 1 shows the output from Irish refineries.

    10ici7r.png

    However we only import 1/3 of our oil as crude oil, the rest we import as refined products. Figure 2 shows our crude oil imports.

    2saf3g8.png

    I don't know the countries of origin of the refined products we import, do you? They're probably fluid, depending on market conditions. Either way, were things to get tasty in the oil arena, we're surely more vulnerable than most since we can only import 1/3 our oil as crude. That said, if sh*t got real, 22mb/yr would probably be enough to cope.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 54 ✭✭pumpkinsoup


    However we only import 1/3 of our oil as crude oil, the rest we import as refined products. Figure 2 shows our crude oil imports.
    "We" can't import any crude as we don't have a refinery. The Whitegate refinery is owned by a large multinational that has no obligation to supply the Irish market. In fact about half of what's produced there is exported overseas. Most of the production in Whitegate is in the form of fuel oil I believe, which has very limited use in Ireland anyway.
    Either way, were things to get tasty in the oil arena, we're surely more vulnerable than most since we can only import 1/3 our oil as crude. That said, if sh*t got real, 22mb/yr would probably be enough to cope.
    If "sh*t got real" all we have is our "national oil reserve" which would last no more than a couple of months.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,460 ✭✭✭Slideshowbob


    On a more Global level, I am still fixated with Colin Campbell's words regarding the link of peak oil and the credit crunch:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDNMjV6sumQ

    I think it makes sense, what do rest of ye think?

    Does that topic have it's own thread on boards anywhere?

    any links? I could not find anything earlier.

    thanks


  • Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Yes I am certain that there is a clear connection between the credit crunch, peak oil production and the recession.

    The video below is a more uptodate version of what Colin Campbell was saying, it is one of a series of five and is aimed at UK Local Authorities to help in future strategy planning.



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2 MarijaJ


    Hi,

    I'm new here. Can anyone help me with some oil consumption issues in Ireland? I'm working a couple of days on finding the information on oil consumption and I do not have much success. I particularly need consumption of heavy fuel oil, Diesel and other petroleum products by companies that cosume them, by electric power plants, I need geographical distribution of that consumption, etc... I have found something on SEAI, NORA and similar sites but it is not that detailed... Can anyone tell me where can I find the info i need? Thanks a lot!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    MarijaJ wrote: »
    Can anyone tell me where can I find the info i need?
    Can you tell us why you need it?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2 MarijaJ


    I am doing some research for my final exam at the university. Is it even possible to find that information collected together at one place? Thx.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    MarijaJ wrote: »
    I am doing some research for my final exam at the university.
    This is a discussion forum - I'm afraid we're not here to do your research for you.


This discussion has been closed.
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