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S&C Seminar at Informed Performance

  • 03-04-2010 7:37pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 859 ✭✭✭


    I posted this over on the Self Defence and MA forum but I think it deserves a spot here too. The day was titled S&C for Martial Arts but all the information was in relation to getting stronger and fitter, something I think we'd all like to get more of!

    I'll be honest, I'm not that easily impressed with S&C stuff but IP was an eye-opener. I'm reasonably well-read on how the body operates and responds to stress, along with the basis of strength training but I'll say handsdown that Will at IP spewed out more knowledge this morning than I'll ever hope to know.

    The day started with a small section where Will asked us what we wanted to cover (good start, most people just plow on ahead with a pre-conceived itinerary) during the course of the day. This threw up various different things; testing, strength programming, age considerations, injury prevention, etc. We then moved on to an introduction to S&C and why we bother getting stronger. To be fair I'd heard all this before and was familiar with it but I guess it can't be omitted from a seminar.

    Next piece was mobility screening for athletes where Will talked about the OHS and other pieces. We then moved on for a practical session, which would become a trend for the day. A few people demo'd the squat and we had a look at it. To be honest, as Will pointed out, we could have spent the entire day on this alone so we probably didn't get to do it justice. Next came the hurdle step and the over-unders. And my shame. Suffice to say my hip mobility made a show of me. Good session though and Will took his time going through each piece of it and it's significance to performance. Also, we got a good look at a good unstable shoulder which was fun.

    Strength testing was next up before lunch. I've followed Will's blog for a while so was familiar with the IP testing protocol but it was interesting to see Will's thoughts on it. It basically boiled down to that the test was not to exactly determine someone's bench or deadlift but rather just to get an idea of where the person was. The emphasis on testing, "If you're not assessing, then you're guessing", especially only as a guideline, was kind of a light-bulb moment for me (one of a few for the day).

    Conditioning testing was after lunch and I'll fully admit was not something I'm that interested in. Again though, Will's attitude to standardised testing and how to structure the work in response to this was great to see. Too many people don't do work in this respect and just plug away at what they think their athletes should be doing. Nice mix of science and realism.

    The rest of the seminar can really be grouped into one part. This was the interpretation of all the data and how this can be used to identify any weaknesses and how to structure a program to rectify this. Sounds wishywashy but Will went through each result in detail and we went thorugh the importance of each to how an athlete would perform. Program design was deceptively easy and before we knew it we had done 3 months of iPrograms and saved Dan some work :pac:

    The Q&A session at the end was much better than I expected as Will went through every question I had in good detail even though I'm sure I asked the same thing repeatedly.

    Overall a fantastic day, albeit cold, in one of dublin's top facilities. The whole day was nice and light-hearted and interspersed with Will's anecdotes from 18 years of international S&C work (including "certain name-less" county football teams, the IRFU, Australian Institute of Sport and much more). While the day was supposed to be limited to the Martial Arts the information given out today was applicable to anyone wanting to get stronger or fitter. I was struck down with a stomach bug earlier in the week and debated whether or not to come today but I'm very glad I did. I've a months training at IP ahead of me now and if it's anything like the seminar today I know I won't be disappointed.


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭cmyk


    I'm absolutely raging I missed this! Sounds great, thanks for the review. Is the screen based on gray cooks FMS? Would like to see that in operation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 859 ✭✭✭BobbyOLeary


    cmyk wrote: »
    I'm absolutely raging I missed this! Sounds great, thanks for the review. Is the screen based on gray cooks FMS? Would like to see that in operation.

    Not a clue. I'm guessing from the rest of Will's stories that he learnt the screen back in Australalalia in the 80's.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,467 ✭✭✭mushykeogh


    cmyk wrote: »
    Is the screen based on gray cooks FMS?

    Similarish, overhead squat and hurdle step were used but i think the screening stuff may have been kelvin giles inspired if it dates back to Wills time in the ais. Could be totally feicin wrong tho. I meant to ask will at the end about kelvin giles but had to leg it, so will, what about kelvin giles?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 968 ✭✭✭Chet Zar


    Cheers for this, will have a proper read over it in the morning!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭cmyk


    Were there many at it or any talk of repeating it at all?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 859 ✭✭✭BobbyOLeary


    cmyk wrote: »
    Were there many at it or any talk of repeating it at all?

    About 10 of us. No talk of repeating it but I'm sure the guys will. That said, a month's subscription to IP is 80 quid and I'm sure you could get Will off on one of his tangents and get the same info out of him.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭cmyk


    About 10 of us. No talk of repeating it but I'm sure the guys will. That said, a month's subscription to IP is 80 quid and I'm sure you could get Will off on one of his tangents and get the same info out of him.

    Good point! I was over for the charity session before Christmas and nutrition seminar...he likes to talk, but it's all good info, and I like to listen!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,917 ✭✭✭Barry.Oglesby


    About 10 of us. No talk of repeating it but I'm sure the guys will. That said, a month's subscription to IP is 80 quid and I'm sure you could get Will off on one of his tangents and get the same info out of him.
    What you do is this- buy a membership, lock the office door with a pot of coffee and enough stationary and you'll probably get the seminar + more, but sleep deprivation usually gets people first :). Will is a very verbacious guy and will answer literally any question you ask him in as much detail as you're looking for.

    Thanks for coming along Bobby and Ciaran and I'm glad you got something out of it. We do have plans to rerun this seminar, but also to run a practical companion to it. (coaching lifts, exercises, practical testing etc.) I suppose the best bet is to check our web page as we've been chastised for posting this stuff on the Fitness forum before and don't want to tread on any toes (hence why it didn't get any airtime on this forum).


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,917 ✭✭✭Barry.Oglesby


    cmyk wrote: »
    I'm absolutely raging I missed this! Sounds great, thanks for the review. Is the screen based on gray cooks FMS? Would like to see that in operation.
    Eeeeehhhh no. That Gray Cook thing is just packaging.

    I don't know where the screen originated from, mushykeogh and myself were talking about where we first saw it yesterday, but the movements we did are fairly standard across most of the universe and the crux of the screening portion of the seminar was that they are used very little in IP. The critical observation method is the one Will uses.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,485 ✭✭✭✭Khannie


    I was at this yesterday. Thoroughly enjoyed it. Learned a lot.
    we've been chastised for posting this stuff on the Fitness forum before and don't want to tread on any toes (hence why it didn't get any airtime on this forum).

    As youve seen with other people on the fitness forum and forums on boards; seminars that may be of interest are 100% kosher. That's not what the problem was before.

    edit: I may be talking rubbish, as usual. I remembered that cross posting is generally to be avoided. Personally I'd have no problem with a thread in here that ponited to the sd/ma thread though. If in doubt just drop someone a PM though.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭cmyk


    What you do is this- buy a membership, lock the office door with a pot of coffee and enough stationary and you'll probably get the seminar + more, but sleep deprivation usually gets people first :). Will is a very verbacious guy and will answer literally any question you ask him in as much detail as you're looking for.

    Good stuff Barry, I'll touch base with u after easter so.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,917 ✭✭✭Barry.Oglesby


    Khannie wrote: »
    I was at this yesterday. Thoroughly enjoyed it. Learned a lot.



    As youve seen with other people on the fitness forum and forums on boards; seminars that may be of interest are 100% kosher. That's not what the problem was before.

    edit: I may be talking rubbish, as usual. I remembered that cross posting is generally to be avoided. Personally I'd have no problem with a thread in here that ponited to the sd/ma thread though. If in doubt just drop someone a PM though.
    Hmmm, that's not what we were told. Look I don't know the ins and outs and this topic isn't place for discussion. TBH I don't think the people at the top really know what to do with it either as it's on the line of interest versus advertisement. I respect that the idea is to keep the forum commercial free and we're trying to respect that. It's just tricky sometimes as for one, we want people to know about what we're doing and for our events to be successful, and secondly, I like discussion and I hate commercial shilling as much as the next guy, and we have never thought that's what we're doing.

    I think there was just some bad feeling initially. I mean a guy got banned from here for posting his blog (actually unconnected from our site, just his blog, Damian the rower who Will spoke about yesterday) for what I don't know. Thankfully that seems to have cleared up and I've had some good discussion with people on here.

    To me, posting about a seminar is like posting about a competition. yes people are going to pay for it and it will (hopefully) make a profit for the organisers, but also people need to know about it as it's of direct benefit and interest. However that's just my opinion and if the people who run/own this site disagree then that's for us to respect. I would never come on here and post a topic that says SPECIAL OFFER ON MEMBERSHIP! JOIN NOW!

    But anyway, thanks for the good words about the seminar, hope you enjoyed it and nice choice of clothing yesterday.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,467 ✭✭✭mushykeogh


    Eeeeehhhh no. That Gray Cook thing is just packaging.
    And very expensive packaging at that.
    mushykeogh wrote: »
    i think the screening stuff may have been kelvin giles inspired if it dates back to Wills time in the ais. Could be totally feicin wrong tho.
    Yep, i was totally feicin wrong, dont know who originated the screening stuff but the slick marketing leads you to believe that gray cook invented it all!

    Thanks for coming along Bobby and Ciaran and I'm glad you got something out of it.
    It easily could have been a two day seminar. The biggest thing i got from this(despite coaching in different sport) was that the most successful program iv ever done was based on the main principles will was talking about, that was almost 4 years ago before i knew what a screen was!. It also made me realise that iv recently spent far too much time worrying about screening and functional stuff. Mistake acknowledged, lesson learned.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,917 ✭✭✭Barry.Oglesby


    mushykeogh wrote: »
    It also made me realise that iv recently spent far too much time worrying about screening and functional stuff. Mistake acknowledged, lesson learned.
    I would have been the same as you about 2 years ago! It has it's place and I think it is very interesting, but it's probably now overstated to the extent that people are now walking into coaches and expecting to be screened, and when they aren't, they're not happy!!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 472 ✭✭J-Fit


    I'd agree with what's being said here. I actually do use the FMS in it's entirety and I've found the results really good from the point of view that the prescribed corrective exercises do have a direct impact on the FMS score. What I haven't figured out yet is if a rising score correlates with increased sporting performance because I haven't been able to dsitinguish if it is my programming or the FMS' that is having most impact on athlete's performances. I'm erring on the side of caution on this one and keeping the FMS on but I'm also swinging back towards hard ass strength training. I hate the FMS' suggestion that we need to clear up ALL these patterns before we undertake strength training. Next we'll have to be doing correctives before we have a dump.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭cmyk


    J-Fit wrote: »
    I'd agree with what's being said here. I actually do use the FMS in it's entirety and I've found the results really good from the point of view that the prescribed corrective exercises do have a direct impact on the FMS score. What I haven't figured out yet is if a rising score correlates with increased sporting performance because I haven't been able to dsitinguish if it is my programming or the FMS' that is having most impact on athlete's performances.

    If the FMS scores improve (whether you're using gray cook's or other), surely that means there is an improvement in either mobilty or stability of a particular joint(s) and therefore too valuable a resource to leave out? (I also realise that question and more was probably answered on Saturday, but interesting to get other trainers angles on it too.)
    I presume you guys use the screen for athletes rather than your average weight loss client?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 472 ✭✭J-Fit


    cmyk wrote: »
    If the FMS scores improve (whether you're using gray cook's or other), surely that means there is an improvement in either mobilty or stability of a particular joint(s) and therefore too valuable a resource to leave out? (I also realise that question and more was probably answered on Saturday, but interesting to get other trainers angles on it too.)
    I presume you guys use the screen for athletes rather than your average weight loss client?

    Yes I suspect it does improve performance which is why I'm keeping it on but is that performance increase greater than when I didn't utilise the FMS? In my experience, athlete's neuromuscular coordination has improved with and without the FMS and the limited research on the subject (only some of which isn't biased) confirms this. That's what I still haven't figured out. I've only been useing the FMS for around a year and as I say, it has done no harm whatsoever. Faulty movement patterns have been cleared up, so I'll be keeping it on for the time being. I don't believe it is an essential piece of equipment though. I do actually use it on weight loss clients too, they more than anybody could do with increased mobility as they tend to be completely sendentary when they come in. The FMS correctives offer an effective way of teaching primitive movements in stages.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,917 ✭✭✭Barry.Oglesby


    I think the principal problem is that it's one of those things that adds time. You have a finite amount of time with any one athlete and then anything after that adds volume and time. For me the critical observation method is the best method to combine looking for those tightnesses as you go and continuing to assess and get feedback.

    The other thing is show me someone who doesn't have some degree of tightness in the hip flexors or lower back or whose knees doesn't track badly to some degree. At IP our guys all warm up with mobility and stability stuff. That means the guys who need the exercises get them and the guys who don't just get warmed up with them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭cmyk


    How long does it take to run through the screen/how many movements are assessed?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,917 ✭✭✭Barry.Oglesby


    cmyk wrote: »
    How long does it take to run through the screen/how many movements are assessed?
    It depends. The thing is that you're going to find something. You can't fail to find something no matter how minor.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 472 ✭✭J-Fit


    cmyk wrote: »
    How long does it take to run through the screen/how many movements are assessed?

    About 15 mins for an FMS.


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