Terrifying Forum

PhysiologyRocks

The other day I came upon a scary Irish parenting forum.

A rather large group of people are advising each other not to vaccinate their babies, and to treat some nasty conditions with all sorts off hocus pocus.

People go on there saying that their kids are sick - and advised to see an energy healer.

Some are trying to arrange meetings about raising vaccine free children with healthy immunity. And they keep saying things like "I can bring up my child as I please." I just feel so sorry for the poor babies.

I know these people are out there. I know I'll come across many more. I'm just ranting really. And I must admit, a little bit frightened.

mardybumbum

Link?

bleg

Natural Selection!

imported_guy

anyone remember that episode from House M.D where the 'rents are trying to raise a baby as a vegan? LOL

i just think theres a lack of awareness amongst people regarding immunization of their children and how important it is.

PhysiologyRocks

mardybumbum wrote: »

Link?

http://www.rollercoaster.ie/boards/forum.asp?GroupID=62&forumdb=3

lonestargirl

Scary stuff.

Where I am in the US you cannot enroll your child in school without vaccinations, so if you don't vaccinate you must homeschool. I agree wholehartedly with this rule.

Is there any way of dealing with parents who refuse medical treatment for their ill children? I know there is precedence in terms of Jehovah's Witnesses and blood transfusions. There are people on that site looking for alternative methods for illnesses that could make children very ill. At what point is it child endangerment?

Sadly, I have palliatively treated a number of breast cancer patients who refused chemo and went the alternative route. They were some of the most horrendous tumours I have ever seen. These women lost years of their lives because they were led to believe in the 'evils' of conventional medicine.

nesf

It's my child and I'll raise it however I please! (tm)

simu

I read rollercoaster from time to time and overall, it's a good resource for parents. I'd never gone into the section you linked to before because I have zero interest in alternative therapies but tbh, it's no news that some people have these views and as long as there is freedom of speech, they will discuss them.

PhysiologyRocks

simu wrote: »

I read rollercoaster from time to time and overall, it's a good resource for parents. I'd never gone into the section you linked to before because I have zero interest in alternative therapies but tbh, it's no news that some people have these views and as long as there is freedom of speech, they will discuss them.

I know this, and I know many parents who really like the site. I suppose that's part of my issue. I'd worry that some may think that it's okay on the grounds that they read it on Rollercoaster.

Free speech is fine, but a forum dedicated to this kind of thing worries me. The well respected site looks like it's promoting it. Many people there are discussing using homeopathy as an alternative, and not as well as real medicine. I read there about a homeopath who won't treat children who are on asthma meds!!!

nesf

PhysiologyRocks wrote: »

I read there about a homeopath who won't treat children who are on asthma meds!!!

Well at least there's someone responsible there. I mean the interactions between distilled water and inhalers can be quite breathtaking so to speak..

PhysiologyRocks

Here's a British one:

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/vaccinations

All about vaccination.

lonestargirl

PhysiologyRocks wrote: »

I know this, and I know many parents who really like the site. I suppose that's part of my issue. I'd worry that some may think that it's okay on the grounds that they read it on Rollercoaster.

I think you've really hit the core of the matter with this point. There is some really good information on both those sites, primarily in relation to pregnancy symptoms, baby products, breastfeeding etc. But there is no control of the information. If I post here about any treatment conventional or alternative the first things the mods say is 'what is the evidence?'

Dave!

Pretty depressing tbh

Cookie_Monster

bleg wrote: »

Natural Selection!

not really, we'll all have to pay for it down the line with increased sickness and god know what other side effects from all these loopy treatments

storm2811

i remember seeing something a while ago about parents not wanting to vaccinate their kids because they thought one of them would cause autism?
i really doubt it..

sam34

storm2811 wrote: »

i remember seeing something a while ago about parents not wanting to vaccinate their kids because they thought one of them would cause autism?
i really doubt it..

yep, you and the rest of us who believe in science

unfortunately, there's a lot of people out there who just believe sensationalist scaremongering instead of hard facts

WildBoots

Maybe parents don't want to vaccinate their kids because they read stories like this...http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/150425

Couldn't blame them really.

nesf

WildBoots wrote: »

Maybe parents don't want to vaccinate their kids because they read stories like this...http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/150425

Couldn't blame them really.

Except anyone with any knowledge would know that that's a new vaccine and the normal vaccines given to kids are tried and tested over many many years and known not to have high rates of complications.

Graces7

We still do have choice.
And freedom of choice, thankfully.

Would hate to see the US system here.

taram

Graces7 wrote: »

We still do have choice.
And freedom of choice, thankfully.

Would hate to see the US system here.

The issue I have with it is that other people would be affected if the child went to school and wasn't immunised such as pregnant women, babies, immuno-comprised people etc. Those are the ones that suffer when ignorance about vaccinations is widespread.

nesf

taram wrote: »

The issue I have with it is that other people would be affected if the child went to school and wasn't immunised such as pregnant women, babies, immuno-comprised people etc. Those are the ones that suffer when ignorance about vaccinations is widespread.

If there ever was something that should be made compulsory this is it.

tallaght01

WildBoots wrote: »

Maybe parents don't want to vaccinate their kids because they read stories like this...http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/150425

Couldn't blame them really.

Deaths weren't from the vaccine: suicide, drowning, malaria, viral sepsis and snake bites were the causes. Programmes go into lockdown when people die. It's best practice, until cause of deaths are established. Though there are other ethical probs with the indian programme which means it's staying closed for longer.

Just for the benefit of anyone reading, who's worried.

CJhaughey

nesf wrote: »

If there ever was something that should be made compulsory this is it.

I Know of some doctors that haven't vaccinated their kids with the MMR vaccine.
I think the reason a lot of parents don't want 5 or 7 in one vaccines is that it is a lot to take on board in a very short time.
Many people I know would be happy to vaccinate individually, of course this is not done here and so the option is binary.

tallaght01

CJhaughey wrote: »

I Know of some doctors that haven't vaccinated their kids with the MMR vaccine.
I think the reason a lot of parents don't want 5 or 7 in one vaccines is that it is a lot to take on board in a very short time.
Many people I know would be happy to vaccinate individually, of course this is not done here and so the option is binary.

MUCH less safety data for individual vaccines Vs combined MMR. In fact the regulatory data suggests a slight INCREASE in cumulative side effects when single shots are used.

nesf

CJhaughey wrote: »

I Know of some doctors that haven't vaccinated their kids with the MMR vaccine.

Doctors can be as irrational as anyone else. I know some who are homeopaths ffs.

metrovelvet

nesf wrote: »

Doctors can be as irrational as anyone else. I know some who are homeopaths ffs.

I know some doctors who smoke too. And i know nurses who self medicate and give them selves Ivs and shots.

I know a doctor who let a pregnant woman during labour, pre eclamptic, get out of the feotal heart monitor and go outside to have a cigarette.

WildBoots

tallaght01 wrote: »

Deaths weren't from the vaccine: suicide, drowning, malaria, viral sepsis and snake bites were the causes.

Sure.

Graces7

taram wrote: »

The issue I have with it is that other people would be affected if the child went to school and wasn't immunised such as pregnant women, babies, immuno-comprised people etc. Those are the ones that suffer when ignorance about vaccinations is widespread.

We are Canadian based and see things much less cut and dried and much less.... ignorant is the word others use unjustifiably.

There they are much less happy re vaccinations and much more aware of the fact that it can and does go wrong.

And are at ease saying no.

This week, a family member was at a meeting, re disaster tactics etc. The emergency crews got called out from the meeting.

A 2 month old baby, vaccinated that day, had died.

The second in a few weeks.

Any parent has the right to protect their child and to say NO to vaccination. Period.

The emotional blackmail on the swine flu leaflet was appalling also.

There are many cases of vaccination damaging.

You think parents should sacrifice their babies like that?

There are risks.
Each will weigh them up carefully.

I have suffered many times from misdiagnoses etc and question any treatment and make my own mind up.

Thus I decided against swine flu vaccination.

Graces7

PhysiologyRocks wrote: »

The other day I came upon a scary Irish parenting forum.

A rather large group of people are advising each other not to vaccinate their babies, and to treat some nasty conditions with all sorts off hocus pocus.

People go on there saying that their kids are sick - and advised to see an energy healer.

Some are trying to arrange meetings about raising vaccine free children with healthy immunity. And they keep saying things like "I can bring up my child as I please." I just feel so sorry for the poor babies.

I know these people are out there. I know I'll come across many more. I'm just ranting really. And I must admit, a little bit frightened.

Good for them; fair play to them! Wonderful to see folk thinking for themselves.

Not poor babies at all...

Laydee

CJhaughey wrote: »

I Know of some doctors that haven't vaccinated their kids with the MMR vaccine.
I think the reason a lot of parents don't want 5 or 7 in one vaccines is that it is a lot to take on board in a very short time.
Many people I know would be happy to vaccinate individually, of course this is not done here and so the option is binary.

Yes it is, money talks.

Dave!

Graces7 wrote: »

We are Canadian based and see things much less cut and dried and much less.... ignorant is the word others use unjustifiably.

There they are much less happy re vaccinations and much more aware of the fact that it can and does go wrong.

And are at ease saying no.

This week, a family member was at a meeting, re disaster tactics etc. The emergency crews got called out from the meeting.

A 2 month old baby, vaccinated that day, had died.

The second in a few weeks.

Any parent has the right to protect their child and to say NO to vaccination. Period.

The emotional blackmail on the swine flu leaflet was appalling also.

There are many cases of vaccination damaging.

You think parents should sacrifice their babies like that?

There are risks.
Each will weigh them up carefully.

I have suffered many times from misdiagnoses etc and question any treatment and make my own mind up.

Thus I decided against swine flu vaccination.

And those deaths were caused by the vaccine, right? They didn't like fall off a balcony because of 'vaccine-related dizziness', or they weren't eaten by a bear thanks to 'vaccine-related tastiness'?

Any links to a reputable source to confirm this?

metrovelvet

Speaking of vaccines? Whatever happenned to all the swine flu hysteria?

sam34

ok folks, a reminder that this is a scientific discussion forum. this thread is degenerating into one suitable for AH or conspiracy theories.

any claims-on either side- need to be backed up with reputable scientific evidence.

otherwise posts will be deleted.

Pace2008

sam34 wrote: »

ok folks, a reminder that this is a scientific discussion forum. this thread is degenerating into one suitable for AH or conspiracy theories.

any claims-on either side- need to be backed up with reputable scientific evidence.

otherwise posts will be deleted.

Should vaccine proponents really have to keep backing up their position when the overwhelming consensus amongst the medical and scientific community is that there's no causal association between the MMR jab and autism?

sam34

Pace2008 wrote: »

Should vaccine proponents really have to keep backing up their position when the overwhelming consensus amongst the medical and scientific community is that there's no causal association between the MMR jab and autism?

firstly, thats not the only anti-vaccine claim being made in this thread

secondly, while every (or almost every) health professional will know the autism-mmr link has been discredited, not every one in the general public will, so its worth reiterating and emphasising

thirdly, yes, in the interests of fairness and transparency, we do ask here that everyone back up their claims

it's not difficult for those with scientific evidence behind them

Pace2008

sam34 wrote: »

firstly, thats not the only anti-vaccine claim being made in this thread

secondly, while every (or almost every) health professional will know the autism-mmr link has been discredited, not every one in the general public will, so its worth reiterating and emphasising

thirdly, yes, in the interests of fairness and transparency, we do ask here that everyone back up their claims

it's not difficult for those with scientific evidence behind them

I was referring specifically to the MMR vaccine; sorry if I didn't make that clear.

Anyway, here is a statement from the WHO claiming that the vaccine is safe. (I’m not linking to the studies as I find scientific papers in their entirety are difficult for laypeople like myself to assess and digest).

For any concerned parents out there, this should carry more weight than what maverick doctors and people on internet forums believe.

Pace2008

Graces7 wrote: »

This week, a family member was at a meeting, re disaster tactics etc. The emergency crews got called out from the meeting.

A 2 month old baby, vaccinated that day, had died.

The second in a few weeks.

This is very likely an unfortunate coincidence. Humans see patterns in everything (a huge evolutionary advantage but also somewhat of a drawback in modern times) and attach significance to events when there is none. It is only when we look at the wider picture, in this case through rigourous observational studies with large sample sizes, that we can start to draw any conclusions.

Any parent has the right to protect their child and to say NO to vaccination. Period.

These parents also have a responsibility to society to aid in working towards herd immunity.

Good for them; fair play to them! Wonderful to see folk thinking for themselves.

Not poor babies at all...

They are not thinking for themselves; they are pseudoskeptics going against the grain - often the same parents who'll advocate holistic remedies like homeopathy which have been categorically proven to be completely ineffective.

Truthrevolution

metrovelvet wrote: »

Speaking of vaccines? Whatever happenned to all the swine flu hysteria?

The last i heard the WHO were investigating this false pandemic.

locum-motion

Truthrevolution wrote: »

The last i heard the WHO were investigating this false pandemic.

Last I heard, the WHO were looking into it. They haven't decided yet if the criteria for declaring it a pandemic were correct. Calling it a 'false pandemic' is emotive and premature. Let's at least wait for them to report back before using such inflammatory language, please.

Now, please bring this thread back onto the original topic, Boardsies!
Thanks.

sam34

ok folks, i've deleted a load of posts that were sensationalist/scaremongering/unsubstantiated/inflammatory etc etc etc


there have been mod warnings already to keep this grounded in SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE

that applies to those on both sides of the debate

conspiracy theories is

---

>


no further warnings, just deleted posts and bannings

ORLY?

N8 wrote: »

Taram does pregnancy mean you suddenly are completely immunocompromised? No it doesn’t.

Immuno-suppression isn't the main issue, even immuno-competent people can pick up viruses, viruses than can be devastating for the developing foetus.

But yes actually, pregnant women are relatively immuno-compromised, not "completely", as you put it, but any dip in immunity increases the risks of catching something.

N8 wrote: »

Are immunosuppressed people walking around engaging in day to day life? No they are not and should not be.

Yes they are. HIV patients, people on corticosteroids and immunomodulators for a variety of conditions from autoimmune diseases to organ transplantation and many others.

Truthrevolution

sam34 wrote: »

ok folks, i've deleted a load of posts that were sensationalist/scaremongering/unsubstantiated/inflammatory etc etc etc


there have been mod warnings already to keep this grounded in SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE

that applies to those on both sides of the debate

conspiracy theories is

---

>

Your not allowed talk about vaccine dangers in the conspiracy forum either.

Dave!

Truthrevolution wrote: »

Your not allowed talk about vaccine dangers in the conspiracy forum either.

I'm sure Generation Now or one of those sites have a forum where you can post scare-mongering lies.

DrIndy

You're not allowed to talk about unsubstantianted scaremongering here either. The Conspiracy Theories forum is taking a very positive stance by not allowing them.

You need evidence for such a position. There is NO evidence that these vaccines are statistically significantly harmful although a very tiny minority may have an established side effect (like mini measles to the MMR where they get the measles rash without the symptoms).

Unless you have a substantial comment to make we will need to start deleting threads and banning users. This is a scientific forum and there are many other places outside of boards.ie which encourage anti-vaccine scaremongering and leave children vulnerable to be killed by infectious diseases which are entirely preventable if their parents were not so ignorant. Children and adults DO die of epiglottitis, measles, whooping cough in the developed world and the only explanation of this is the ignorance and complete irresponsibility by leaving their children vulnerable.

Boards.ie is a reputable website and will not become a website which tolerates this garbage and potentially - child abuse.

N8

Funny how a complete discussion forum like boards.ie begins censoring what can and cannot be discussed.

DrIndy wrote: »

You need evidence for such a position. There is NO evidence that these vaccines are statistically significantly harmful.

What evidence is needed to state vaccines are indeed safe? Are there medium to long term studies?

DrIndy wrote: »

Boards.ie is a reputable website and will not become a website which tolerates this garbage and potentially - child abuse.

Is this a serious sentiment? Is it really being suggested that the parents of perfectly healthy and robust children be accused of child abuse for not bowing to the holy grail of the world's latest fad - science?

What next from the vaccinazis?

tbh

N8 wrote: »

Is this a serious sentiment?

This is a scientific forum. Certain things are not up for debate. You're just going to have to deal with it.

N8

tbh wrote: »

Certain things are not up for debate.

Like what exactly tbh - comparing non vaccination to child abuse?

I din't bring it up, I simply asked was this really Dr.Indy's perspective of the matter?

tbh

N8 wrote: »

Like what exactly tbh - comparing non vaccination to child abuse?

I'll be honest with you - yes.

Let me put it to you this way. I want people like tallaght01 posting on this board for as long as possible. If you posting on this board means he is less likely to, I'm going to remove your access.

Yes, that is censorship.
Yes, that is favouritism.
Yes, I will deprive you of freedom of speech. (on this part of boards anyway)


You can call me a vaccinazi or whatever you want, but that's the way it is.

Perhaps Conspiracy theories or another forum would suit you better.

N8

Why would tallaght01 not want to post on the forum? Is it because he has to lower himself to threatening to kill someone in response to an objective summary and opposing assessment of previous posts on this thread?

Is it legitimate to roll out wrong answers and ill informed opinions masqurading as fact and not be challenged?

Conspiracy forum? Is it conspiracy to state another legitimate view and ask questions in regard to posts made? Is this not the point of these threads - open discussion?

Is it ok for one side to make sweeping statements without evidence but demand evidence by way of reply?

Do you want discussion on the forum or sheep bleating to a drum?

Is it not valid to question a position that equates non vaccination to child abuse?

tbh

N8 wrote: »

Is it not valid to question a position that equates non vaccination to child abuse?

not on this forum. I really don't know how I can make it any plainer. The forum is what it is - take it or leave it.

N8

So it can be stated that non vaccination is child abuse and it isn't to be questioned?