Public Sector bashers gone AWOL!!?

Citizen_Cutback

Did anyone notice that some of the most vociferous Public Sector bashers seem to be absent without leave from these boards?

I wonder has this radio silence got anything to do with the NAMA and Quinn Group revelations of yesterday, March 30th 2010?

Come on lads, you are welcome back to explain how the Public Sector and Public Servants are responsible for what seems like a €70 odd billion debt gift to the Nation by the Private Sector.

And by the way elected politicians are not Public Servants, they are elected public representatives and a lot of the current shower will hopefully not be elected the next time.

quad_red

Yeah.

It's a good thing that my private sector union is ensuring that, as a private sector worker, I'm getting a big cut of this.

Nice.

Jaysoose

Citizen_Cutback wrote: »

Did anyone notice that some of the most vociferous Public Sector bashers seem to be absent without leave from these boards?

I wonder has this radio silence got anything to do with the NAMA and Quinn Group revelations of yesterday, March 30th 2010?

Come on lads, you are welcome back to explain how the Public Sector and Public Servants are responsible for what seems like a €70 odd billion debt gift to the Nation by the Private Sector.

And by the way elected politicians are not Public Servants, they are elected public representatives and a lot of the current shower will hopefully not be elected the next time.

The Financial Regulator played his part as a public servant.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

tunney

Probablty chuckling about the PS deal that had a get out of jail free clause about deterioration in the countries finances and then the very next day grounds to invoke it came around. No pay cuts until 2014 - I think not.

ardmacha

The Financial Regulator played his part as a public servant.

OK, you found one, what about the other 300,000?

Just as inadequate policing is not as serious as criminality, a failure by the Regulator only became an issue because of the actions of the crooks in the banks and developers.

In any event the Financial Regulator was close to Government, a Government mainly elected by people in the private sector.

Smiegal

And we're off!!!!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Smiegal

ardmacha wrote: »

OK, you found one, what about the other 300,000?

In any event the Financial Regulator was close to Government, a Government mainly elected by people in the private sector to advance their interests.

This is true in fairness. The Financial Reg was very, very closely controlled by Government. And as we can see... still is.

Jaysoose

ardmacha wrote: »

OK, you found one, what about the other 300,000?

Just as inadequate policing is not as serious as criminality, a failure by the Regulator only became an issue because of the actions of the crooks in the banks and developers.

In any event the Financial Regulator was close to Government, a Government mainly elected by people in the private sector.

Lol the OP asked a question and i put forward an answer, if you dont like it thats your issue.

Its undeniable that the Financial regulator was heavily involved in the whole sorry mess.
.

Count Dooku

ardmacha wrote: »

OK, you found one, what about the other 300,000?

Five banks vs financial regulator and central bank. Exactly the same proportion private vs public
Public services is only place where incompetence will be always rewarded.

ardmacha wrote: »

In any event the Financial Regulator was close to Government, a Government mainly elected by people in the private sector.

Without support from public sector in exchange for benchmarking, Fianna Fail never would win elections

Smiegal

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

No they're not. They are Public Representatives voted in by me and you. This is what makes them differant to PS workers who go through a job application, exams, apt test interviews etc

Ref end of first post.

The_Honeybadger

ardmacha wrote: »

In any event the Financial Regulator was close to Government, a Government mainly elected by people in the private sector.

LOL thats brilliant.

What about the planners who gave planning permission to all the ghost estates that my two year old daughter could have told them weren't needed?

murphaph

ardmacha wrote: »

In any event the Financial Regulator was close to Government, a Government mainly elected by people in the private sector.

...as if public servants didn't vote in droves for Bertie "Benchmarking" Ahern and his merry mob of thieves. Come off it.

bamboozle

Citizen_Cutback wrote: »

Did anyone notice that some of the most vociferous Public Sector bashers seem to be absent without leave from these boards?

I wonder has this radio silence got anything to do with the NAMA and Quinn Group revelations of yesterday, March 30th 2010?

Come on lads, you are welcome back to explain how the Public Sector and Public Servants are responsible for what seems like a €70 odd billion debt gift to the Nation by the Private Sector.

And by the way elected politicians are not Public Servants, they are elected public representatives and a lot of the current shower will hopefully not be elected the next time.

it's very simple, if Financial Regulator had done his job and not ignored the 50 plus occassions he had been advised on shady practices at Anglo, if Financial Regulator had not allowed idiotic measures such as 35 & 40 year mortgages, 100% mortgages, 110% mortgages etc, our banking crisis would not have been anywhere near as severe.

nothing personal against of former financial regulator but he did 1 year in UCD studying latin followed by 30 years as a lifer in the public service, compare that to the current head of the US Fed reserve Ben Bernanke who has a degree from Harvard and a PHD from MIT in economics to see how unqualified our former financial regulator was.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Smiegal

Count Dooku wrote: »

Five banks vs financial regulator and central bank. Exactly the same proportion private vs public
Public services is only place where incompetence will be always rewarded.

Not sure what you mean by this post?

ei.sdraob

Smiegal wrote: »

No they're not. They are Public Representatives voted in by me and you. This is what makes them differant to PS workers who go through a job application, exams, apt test interviews etc

Ref end of first post.

they get paid for by the public money? check
they get nice salaries and pensions? check
its impossible to get rid of them? check
their job is to serve the public and the country? check
they get "rewarded" whether they are bad or good? check
they dont bother to show up all the time as they meant to? check
they often come from public sector jobs like teaching? check

the government are certainly not part of the private sector

the OP is fairly "inflammatory" with his post, why is he trying to stir up trouble? we have enough public/private threads, anyways 2 wrongs dont make a right

bamboozle

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

that's kinda like saying you only need to have a referee in some matches where teams are liable to commit fouls.
people seem to forget the Financial Regulator was charged with regulating the banks and making sure they towed the line,
hitting the galway races or going out for dinner with the banks wasnt exactly in the job remit!

Count Dooku

Smiegal wrote: »

Not sure what you mean by this post?

How many public servants have been fired for incompetence during last 10 years in round figures?

gandalf

Don't feed the t**** lads

bamboozle

Count Dooku wrote: »

How many public servants have been fired for incompetence during last 10 years in round figures?

well the financial regulator Neary walked away with a pension of over 140k a year...this at a time where the sitting head of the US Fed Reserve's salary is usd180k.

incompetence! what incompetence, sure he worked for 30 years, just cause he had a major part in the collapse of our banking industry sure we'll just ask him to walk away quietly!

Smiegal

ei.sdraob wrote: »

they get paid for by the public money? check
they get nice salaries and pensions? check
its impossible to get rid of them? check
their job is to serve the public and the country? check
they get "rewarded" whether they are bad or good? check
they dont bother to show up all the time as they meant to? check
they often come from public sector jobs like teaching? check

the government are certainly not part of the private sector

the OP is fairly "inflammatory" with his post, why is he trying to stir up trouble? we have enough public/private threads, anyways 2 wrongs dont make a right

they get paid for by the public money? check - agreed

they get nice salaries and pensions? check - disagreed - many are over paid, like many in both sectors

its impossible to get rid of them? check - Disagreed - They get Voted out...

their job is to serve the public and the country? check - Agreed

they get "rewarded" whether they are bad or good? check - Disagreed - They get Voted out... Or at least they should get Voted out, but unfortunately The Irish Electorate seem to be incompetent on this one...

they dont bother to show up all the time as they meant to? check - Clarify please - Show up where??

they often come from public sector jobs like teaching? check - Agreed - Do you honestly think that a very successfull business man/woman making millions of euro is honestly going to take a severe drop in wages and living standards to become A PS Representatives??

Gus99

ardmacha wrote: »

OK, you found one, what about the other 300,000?

Not just him personally, his office, Central Bank, Dept of Finance and a large number of irresponsible (at best) planners. Yes that is a minority of PS, just as a minority of the Private Sector contributed directly to bubble and yet everyone is paying for it, many of them with their job.

ardmacha wrote: »

Just as inadequate policing is not as serious as criminality, a failure by the Regulator only became an issue because of the actions of the crooks in the banks and developers.

Policing analogy is not appropriate - police's job is to enforce laws not to create them, Regulators job is to ensure appropriate laws are in place, as well as enforcement. Actions taken yesterday by the new regulator demonstrate this principle clearly.

ardmacha wrote: »

In any event the Financial Regulator was close to Government, a Government mainly elected by people in the private sector.

Certainly shouldn't have been, the role of the Financial Regulator (once chosen by Minister) is independent of the political system as stipulated by Irish and European legislation

Van Occupanther

ei.sdraob wrote: »

its impossible to get rid of them?

Eh, election cycle?

they often come from public sector jobs like teaching? check

Irrelevant. They come from lots of private sector jobs too.

Smiegal

Count Dooku wrote: »

How many public servants have been fired for incompetence during last 10 years in round figures?

Don't know. How many Private Sector employees have been fired from simialar PERMANENT POSITIONS???

As I've said before in previous threads, speak to any HR Manager in either sector and they will tell you that one of the hardest/riskiest things to do is to fire someone from a permanant position. Our Labour Laws are very much on the side of the Employee on this one.

But I suppose the next thing your going to say is that there is differant Labour Law for Private Sector Workers then to Public Sector Workers...

ardmacha

Eh? You're now arguing that if the bankers had been fine, upstanding, honest people, the Financial Regulator's dereliction of duties would not have been an issue.

This is true, of course. If my car is stolen I still think it is the mainly the fault of the criminals, not the Guards. The bankers did a very much worse job (i.e. runined their shareholders), and were better paid for it, than almost anyone in the public service.

Points can be made about planners, regulators etc. But the government wanted more development, it wasn't that the planners thwarted government policy in this regard.

And while no doubt public servants voted for Bertie they are not in a majority. It was citzens who voted for Bertie, and the idea that the minority in the public service imposed this mess on the rest is boll1x, pure and simple.

ei.sdraob

Van Occupanther wrote: »

Eh, election cycle?

hopefully yes, but history speaks for itself, FF have been in power for decades now

Van Occupanther wrote: »

Irrelevant. They come from lots of private sector jobs too.

please name anyone from currently govt who have run a business or held a managerial position in private sector and understands what its like in the private sector

its very easy to make decisions about few billion here few billion there when your job is secure either-way, and if you get voted out you are still paid a nice pension, some of them ministers will be collecting several pensions

Smiegal wrote: »

Don't know. How many Private Sector employees have been fired from simialar PERMANENT POSITIONS???

nothing is PERMANENT or guaranteed in the private sector

Fat_Fingers

OP, It’s not about public sector bashing. Financial regulator was public servant placed in charge of supervising banking sector. It is my opinion he was paid off king’s ransom to disappear into the sunset and keep his mouth shut about political influences or call it obstructions during boom times. There is no way he alone was some maverick operator turning blind eye on all the carry on . IMO he was allowed and encouraged to take that approach.

Above him there is a Board of central bank and he was directly accountable to this board. Step in David Begg (general secretary of the ICTU ) who for years has been sitting on the board of the Central Bank, sound asleep at the wheel.
Maybe , just maybe the question should be asked by union members to their representatives why there is such a silence on David Begg’s contribution to current mess.

MagicSean

Gus99 wrote: »

Not just him personally, his office, Central Bank, Dept of Finance and a large number of irresponsible (at best) planners. Yes that is a minority of PS, just as a minority of the Private Sector contributed directly to bubble and yet everyone is paying for it, many of them with their job.



Policing analogy is not appropriate - police's job is to enforce laws not to create them, Regulators job is to ensure appropriate laws are in place, as well as enforcement. Actions taken yesterday by the new regulator demonstrate this principle clearly.



Certainly shouldn't have been, the role of the Financial Regulator (once chosen by Minister) is independent of the political system as stipulated by Irish and European legislation

I think I've spotted the problem with the system.

The_Honeybadger

ardmacha wrote: »

And while no doubt public servants voted for Bertie they are not in a majority. It was citzens who voted for Bertie, and the idea that the minority in the public service imposed this mess on the rest is boll1x, pure and simple.

Who said the public service inflicted the mess on us? There was good and bad on both sides. 99.99% of people in both sectors are totally blameless in the crisis. But the only people who feel "its not my fault so why should I pay anything" are the PS and their unions. Their attitude and sense of entitlement rub people in the private sector up the wrong way, people who have lost their jobs and are in danger of losing their family home. Anybody who says either sector is entirely at fault doesn't know what they are talking about.

Count Dooku

Smiegal wrote: »

But I suppose the next thing your going to say is that there is differant Labour Law for Private Sector Workers then to Public Sector Workers...

We know that financial regulator together with central bank from one side and various banks from another side are responsible for crisis
We know that 6,000 bankers already lost their jobs with 10,000 to follow
Do you have any figures about planned redundancies in Financial regulator and Central bank?

zootroid

ei.sdraob wrote: »

nothing is PERMANENT or guaranteed in the private sector

Exactly. And by and large, if a company cannot afford to pay it's employees, it goes bust. It doesn't keep borrowing money as who will lend money to a company that can't even afford to pay its employees?

Public sector workers are very much protected, as they know the state can borrow money, a good percentage of which pays their salaries. They are not subject to the same market discipline that private sector workers are. The wages of private sector workers rise and fall on the basis of the labour market, and a few other factors.

Count Dooku

mickeyk wrote: »

But the only people who feel "its not my fault so why should I pay anything" are the PS and their unions.

+1

conorhal

Citizen_Cutback wrote: »

Did anyone notice that some of the most vociferous Public Sector bashers seem to be absent without leave from these boards?

Or perhaps it's because you finally pulled your head out of your arse, saw a little sense and agreed to take your pay cut and enact the reforms necessary to operate a functional public service? Fair play to ye, now can I have me passport?

Smiegal

ei.sdraob wrote: »

nothing is PERMANENT or guaranteed in the private sector

Wrong. Permanant contracts exist in both Sectors for the puposes of dismissal reasons.

Workers being made redundant from permanant positions is a whole different matter.

Rookster

Citizen_Cutback wrote: »

Did anyone notice that some of the most vociferous Public Sector bashers seem to be absent without leave from these boards?

I wonder has this radio silence got anything to do with the NAMA and Quinn Group revelations of yesterday, March 30th 2010?

Come on lads, you are welcome back to explain how the Public Sector and Public Servants are responsible for what seems like a €70 odd billion debt gift to the Nation by the Private Sector.

And by the way elected politicians are not Public Servants, they are elected public representatives and a lot of the current shower will hopefully not be elected the next time.

Are you for real? The financial regulator (Patrick Neary) was a public servant. The Governor of the Central Bank was a Public Servant. The minister for Finance was a Public servant (Cowen). The public sector did cause the crisis. What planet are you living on?

problemchimp

why do you need your passport, where are you going?

Smiegal

Rookster wrote: »

Are you for real? The financial regulator (Patrick Neary) was a public servant. The Governor of the Central Bank was a Public Servant. The minister for Finance was a Public servant (Cowen). The public sector did cause the crisis. What planet are you living on?

There is a difference between a Public Servant and a Public Representative.
Please read previous comments

Smiegal

Rookster wrote: »

Are you for real? The financial regulator (Patrick Neary) was a public servant. The Governor of the Central Bank was a Public Servant. The minister for Finance was a Public servant (Cowen). The public sector did cause the crisis. What planet are you living on?

In addition, I have a fundamental problem with this comment in that all it is is just one massive genralisation.

Patrick Neary, his office and The Central Bank are all Public Sevants (Not Cowen & Co), agreed???

But when you say that The Public Sector caused this problem you are Generlising 300,000 workers. Vast Majority of which had no input on the decisions of the Regulator, Central Bank etc...

Count Dooku

Smiegal wrote: »

There is a difference between a Public Servant and a Public Representative.
Please read previous comments

Fine
But how you will explain that central bank is fully independent body and CB independence is protected by article 108 of EU treaty.
May be chasing individual banks is not main responsibility, but main responsibility of central bank is to keep financial stability.

The Bank’s mandate for financial stability is derived from that of the Eurosystem, which has a clear mandate to contribute to financial stability in the euro area. This provides the basis for the Bank’s responsibility for financial stability in Ireland and in the Eurosystem. According to the Statutes of the European System of Central Banks (ESCB) and the ECB.... “the ESCB shall contribute to the smooth conduct of policies pursued by the competent authorities relating to the prudential supervision of credit institutions and the stability of the financial system” (Article 3.3).

http://www.centralbank.ie/frame_main.asp?pg=fmo_intr.asp&nv=fmo_nav.asp

They even had David Begg on board.
But they miserably failed and did nothing to prevent collapse.
All what they did, was luxury life with their spouses during trips paid by taxpayer
Central Bank staying quiet on spouse trips

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

dan_d

Citizen_Cutback wrote: »

Did anyone notice that some of the most vociferous Public Sector bashers seem to be absent without leave from these boards?

I wonder has this radio silence got anything to do with the NAMA and Quinn Group revelations of yesterday, March 30th 2010?

Come on lads, you are welcome back to explain how the Public Sector and Public Servants are responsible for what seems like a €70 odd billion debt gift to the Nation by the Private Sector.

And by the way elected politicians are not Public Servants, they are elected public representatives and a lot of the current shower will hopefully not be elected the next time.

Haven't you ever heard of the saying....the higher they are the further they fall??Or pride comes before a fall? (substitute gloating for pride).

Careful now!!

Rookster

The Public Sector is lazy, inefficient and did cause this crisis.

Van Occupanther

ei.sdraob wrote: »

hopefully yes, but history speaks for itself, FF have been in power for decades now

And whose fault is that? I still don't see your point.

Please name anyone from currently govt who have run a business or held a managerial position in private sector and understands what its like in the private sector

Ok off the top of my head I know Ryan and Gormley were businessmen. Coughlan was a Social Worker, if she is to be anywhere in cabinet (and as some sick joke she is) then she should be in Social Protection. You have a point in that the system should allow the Taoiseach to appoint anyone with expertise to a Ministerial position, like the US system. This is something I'd be very much in favour of but to blame the PS for that is ridiculous. That is the fault of the political system and the electorate who accept this and continually vote these eejits in. And last time I checked, people from the private sector can stand for office, hell they can even vote too.

Idbatterim

Who said the public service inflicted the mess on us? There was good and bad on both sides. 99.99% of people in both sectors are totally blameless in the crisis. But the only people who feel "its not my fault so why should I pay anything" are the PS and their unions. Their attitude and sense of entitlement rub people in the private sector up the wrong way, people who have lost their jobs and are in danger of losing their family home. Anybody who says either sector is entirely at fault doesn't know what they are talking about.

I entirely agree with the above post. There are about a handfull of people responsible for the entire mess, a few in goverment (among them namely Cowen & Ahern the crook), the regulator and the bank boards. Ofcourse also people who recklessly borrowed but the above are the ones who allowed it to happen. Also good point about the Public Servants attitude and sense of entitlement rubbing up people the wrong way!

Count Dooku

Van Occupanther wrote: »

This is something I'd be very much in favour of but to blame the PS for that is ridiculous.

This is why state pay big bucks to secretaries in order to ensure that any gombeen can be appointed as minister, but senior staff from his department will always advice him, if he will do something wrong.
If responsibility of civil service is only to do what minister say, it means that we can cut their salaries again, because they are even less competent then our politicians

ixoy

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Spot on. Members of both sectors caused this but those members are a tiny tiny fraction of both sectors as a whole. The only contribution most would have made was to buy into this madness - something I imagine each sector is equally guilty of.

Now the usual response is "but why are only we paying"? Tell that to the bank employees - equally blamess - who've been let go or many others when their finances run out. It sucks, it's not fair if your boss' poor decisions caused this, but that's how economies work. Fairness can't always come into such a system, otherwise it collapses or we all start going Red. There's lots more pain for everyone still to come if it makes you feel better!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

bamboozle

Van Occupanther wrote: »

And whose fault is that? I still don't see your point.






Ok off the top of my head I know Ryan and Gormley were businessmen. Coughlan was a Social Worker, if she is to be anywhere in cabinet (and as some sick joke she is) then she should be in Social Protection. You have a point in that the system should allow the Taoiseach to appoint anyone with expertise to a Ministerial position, like the US system. This is something I'd be very much in favour of but to blame the PS for that is ridiculous. That is the fault of the political system and the electorate who accept this and continually vote these eejits in. And last time I checked, people from the private sector can stand for office, hell they can even vote too.

coughlan worked for a few short months as a social worker until she inherited her fathers seat. it was less than a year. Plus we have 6 teachers/former teachers in the front bench and not one of them as minister for Education.

Riskymove

donegalfella wrote: »

. The public sector wage bill is over €20 billion a year.

not anymore....and other measures such as tax and the pension levy come off the gross

Furthermore, the government has committed an estimated €100 billion to future public-sector pensions (with only €17 billion in the pension reserve fund), giving us a ticking time bomb that is not going away

I notice that you have said this on another thread also, its a misrepresentation of how public sector pensions are paid.

the reserve fund is not used directly to pay public sector pensions, it is paid out of current funds each year (hence its incluison in the pay bill)...there is and never has been a pension fund for most public service pensions.