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Traitors to its own people?
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31-03-2010 9:32am#1
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Aye, some of them are there and a few more were added here: http://digg.com/d31MtQR or here.
I don't get it. Why are the Republicans so out to ignore what the people want or need?
Can someone please, honestly, explain what besides money and pure profit (as far as I can see) is the ethos/foundation behind the Republican party?
Seriously, I'd love to know.
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donegalfella wrote: »This post has been deleted.
I'm not sure what your purpose in quoting Ron Paul was in this context. While I respect the man and his views (and don't necessarily agree with him on everything), if the point of quoting him was to demonstrate that the statement in the OP was false then it was incredibly disingenuous.
Firstly, Ron Paul is more a libertarian than a republican, and sadly, even as a republican he is more from the old school of centre-right conservatives than the modern GOP.
The sad fact is that Ron Paul is on the very fringe of the republican party as it stands. His views are neither respected nor popular within the mainstream of the GOP nor its supporters.
As such, his statements don't refute the OPs post in all but the most superficial manner. Because most of the republican party, and certainly those who vote for them, do ascribe to the hypocritical views described therein.
Which just goes to show you how extreme the right wing movement in America has become. When someone speaking as eloquently and intelligently as Ron Paul does is marginalised within his own party. They had a chance to nominate him in 2008 and who did they pick?
"As Putin rears his head and comes into the air space of the United States of America, where– where do they go? It's Alaska. It's just right over the border." --Sarah Palin"The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.""All of 'em, any of 'em that have been in front of me over all these years." --Sarah Palin, unable to name a single newspaper or magazine she reads, interview with Katie Couric, CBS News, Oct."Well, let's see. There's ― of course in the great history of America there have been rulings that there's never going to be absolute consensus by every American, and there are those issues, again, like Roe v. Wade, where I believe are best held on a state level and addressed there. So, you know, going through the history of America, there would be others but ―" --Sarah Palin, unable to name a Supreme Court decision she disagreed with other than Roe vs. Wade, interview with Katie Couric, CBS News, Oct. 1, 2008
The fact that she is a current star of the republican party and a darling of it and the tea-party movement tells you everything you need to know about these organisations and their supporters.0 -
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Must be.Sarah Palin and Bobby Jindal are CENTRIST? You must be joking...
Bobby Jindal is a Populist-Leaning Conservative,
Sarah Palin is Almost precisely the same: a Populist-Leaning Conservative
Source: http://ontheissues.org
Coulter cant shut her mouthIsn't Fox the 'Most trusted name in news,' at least as far as conservatives are concerned. And what about Coulter and Limbaugh (who I believe has the largest audience for political talk radio)?
I was watching O'Reilly on Sunday; that dude tried twice to give her an Out - she just refused to take them. Apparently she has a chip on her shoulder about the Canadians.
And Limbaugh, saying in relation to the Congressman that voted for Healthcare?
"We have to defeat these bastards."0 -
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Part 2 Continued...
The above addresses the issue of conservative opinion in the media. But the key argument here isn't about Coulter, Limbaugh or even Fox. The OP made an assertion about the opinion of "some Republican Americans and their stupid mentality!"
You cited Ron Paul as an example and went on to argue that these opinions do not in fact represent mainstream or popular republican/conservative views. You went on to further imply that there is a lot of diversity of opinion in the republican party and that these views are not actually representative of the party OR it's supporters. Let's look at it issue by issue.
1. You didn't get mad when the Supreme Court stopped a legal recount and appointed a President.
http://www.pollingreport.com/wh2post.htm
Okay this is a bit of an obvious one, and sadly all polls were divided as Pro-Bush or Pro-gore, rather than republican/democrat, but then what else can you expect?Newsweek Poll conducted by Princeton Survey Research Associates. Dec. 14-15, 2000. N=1,001 adults nationwide. MoE ± 4 for the total sample, ± 5 for Bush supporters and for Gore supporters.
"This week, by margin of 5 to 4, the United States Supreme Court reversed the Florida courts' decision and stopped hand recounts of presidential ballots in Florida. All in all, do you think the Supreme Court's decision to stop hand recounts in Florida was fair or unfair?"
All Bush Supporters Gore Supporters
Fair 51 88 19
Unfair 44 9 78
Don't know 5 3 3
What role, if any, do you think politics or partisanship played in the Supreme Court justices' decision? Do you think politics or partisanship played a major role in their decision, somewhat of a role, or no role at all?"
Major role 33 13 52
Somewhat of a role 32 35 29
No role at all 29 45 14
Don't know 6 7 5
2. You didn't get mad when Cheney allowed Energy company officials to dictate energy policy.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/02/28/opinion/polls/main502464.shtmlIS THE ADMINISTRATION HIDING SOMETHING THE PUBLIC NEEDS TO KNOW?
Now
Hiding something, public needs to know 56%
Hiding something, public doesn’t need to know 19
Not hiding anything 13
1/02
Hiding something, public needs to know 44
Hiding something, public doesn’t need to know 21
Not hiding anything 17
Republicans are more likely than Democrats to think the Bush Administration is being forthcoming, 23% to 4%. Even so, the number of Republicans who say the Administration is telling the truth has gone down; a month ago, 32% of Republicans said the Administration was telling the truth.
WHY IS CHENEY REFUSING TO DIVULGE RECORDS ON TASK FORCE?
Hiding something 53%
Principle 37
Political affiliation makes a big difference in people’s views on this matter. Nearly two thirds of Republicans think Cheney’s refusal to hand over the records was based on the principle that the executive branch needs to be able to seek advice freely, while 72% of Democrats say it was because the Vice President has something to hide.
Obviously republican's were up in arms about Cheney and knew exactly what he was up to!
3. Outing of Valerie Plame
I couldn't find any polling on the Valerie Plame issue so have left that one out.
4. You didn't get mad when the Patriot Act got passed.
Now we're beginning to get into the nitty gritty of things...
http://www.gallup.com/poll/17392/Liberty-vs-Security-Public-Mixed-Patriot-Act.aspx
Partisanship is a major factor when it comes to public opinion about the Patriot Act. More than a third (37%) of Democrats think it goes too far in restricting civil liberties, as do 4 in 10 political independents (40%) -- but only 12% of Republicans think the Patriot Act goes too far. Most Republicans, 61%, believe the Patriot Act is "about right" in trading off protection from terrorism with protection of civil liberties.
Ironically...It appears familiarity might breed some contempt when it comes to the Patriot Act. Among Americans who say they are very familiar with the law, 45% believe it goes too far in restricting civil liberties, while a third (33%) of those who are somewhat familiar think so. Just 20% of those who are not familiar with the law think it goes too far.
Interestingly, a poll conducted almost a year earlier than the above had this to say...
http://www.gallup.com/poll/10858/Americans-Generally-Comfortable-Patriot-Act.aspxDespite broad public support for the idea that the Patriot Act does not restrict civil liberties too much, pockets of resistance are evident in Gallup polling. Less than a majority of all political or demographic groups believe that the Patriot Act goes too far in sacrificing civil liberties, but a third or more of the following groups do take that position:
Self-described "liberals" (45% say it goes too far, while 23% say it is about right and 21% say it does not go far enough)
Americans with postgraduate educations (42% "too far" vs. 10% "not far enough")
Democrats (38% too far vs. 20% not far enough)
Military veterans (35% too far vs. 18% not far enough)
In addition to women, the groups least likely to say the act goes too far are Republicans, conservatives, people from rural areas, and those with no college education.
Republicans clearly rose up in vociferous opposition to the civil liberties destroying patriot act as one loud, unified protest!
5. You didn't get mad when ye illegally invaded a country that posed no threat to the USA.
A key issue methinks.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/106309/iraq-war-attitudes-politically-polarized.aspx
http://media.gallup.com/poll/graphs/080408Iraq3r2d6a7s9.gif
So, according to the above poll. 74% of Republicans think the U.S. did not make a mistake sending troops into Iraq. Nevermind the criminality of the matter.
Also....
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/1010-02.htmWASHINGTON - Of the major religious groups in the United States, evangelical Christians are the biggest backers of Israel and Washington's planned war against Iraq, says a new survey released here Wednesday by a politically potent group of fundamentalist Christians and Jews.
Some 69 percent of conservative Christians favor military action against Baghdad; 10 percentage points more than the U.S. adult population as a whole.
Once again the Republican mainstream were the staunchest opponents of the Iraq invasion to begin with and continue to firmly oppose the tyranny of this invasion till today.
6. You didn't get mad when you found out USA was torturing people.
Torture is surely an issue on which republicans refused to yield as highlighted by your Ron Paul quote above. Let's see what some others had to say about this?
http://www.gallup.com/poll/118006/Slim-Majority-Wants-Bush-Era-Interrogations-Investigated.aspx
http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/tfbta7udiuemspvzjlptdq.gif
Hmmm... only a dissapointing 80% of republicans seem to believe that torturing terrorism suspects is justified.
What about investigating whether people were tortured, whether any wrong was done?
Surely MOST republicans would want the truth to be uncovered on this point.
http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/lkghppp6_ew5ifat8pbseg.gif
Well only 61% don't want an investigation, still 37% is pretty awesome considering their track record on this issue so far.
A few of the other points fall under topics already covered in the above, and I stopped looking for more polls on the few remaining issues at this stage because I think a trend is starting to emerge here.
So here is the concluding summary to my argument.
The OP listed numerous attitudes that he (and many others) widely associate with the Republican party/GOP/ Mainstream base. It seems to me that you found those attitudes distateful and posted examples of Ron Paul to illustrate how these are in fact not widely held views at all and that there is a lot of desent and debate on these issues amongst republicans. And that it was indeed unfair to categorize republicans as holding such attitudes.
You further went on to dismiss my examples of Fox News and co as simply inflammatory arguments refusing to concede that they are indeed representative of mainstream republican/conservative opinion.
I have a lot of respect for you personally based on your past posts (otherwise I wouldn't have bothered spending the last few hours researching and compiling the above).
It seems to me that you find these attitudes distateful and cannot come to terms with the fact that these are in fact accurately representative of a political party and ideology that you seem to hold in favour, choosing the rather disingenuous approach of sticking your fingers in your ears, closing your eyes and planting your head firmly in the sand.
I hope these posts are at a level of discourse you find adequate. Also, after all this I can't see what else I could possibly say on this issue. So I'll leave you with the final rebuttal.0 -
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Dear ill informed liberal, i would like to aware you of a certain republican named Dr. Ron Paul (representative from texas 14th district, former ob/gyn, a veteran from the airforce, and a twice presedential candidate)
i would also like to point out his voting record on some of the stuff you have listed
* You didn't get mad when the Patriot Act got passed.
Dr. Paul voted no on the patriot act
* You didn't get mad when ye illegally invaded a country that posed no
threat to the USA.
Dr. Paul voted no for the invasion of iraq/afghanistan
* You didn't get mad when ye spent over 600 billion(and counting) on said illegal war.
Dr. Ron paul has voted no on every bill proposing increased military expenditure since 2001
* You didn't get mad when the government was illegally wire-tapping
Americans.
See the voting record on patriot act and the amendments
* You didn't get mad when ye gave a 900 billion tax break to the rich.
Dr. Paul believes Tax is illegal and unconstitutional and wants to abolish the IRS
* You didn't get mad when the deficit hit the trillion dollar mark.
Dr. Paul wants to abolish the fed and believes in having a sound free market economy with a sound monetery policy
* You didn't get mad when the weapons inspectors, who said there were no WMDs, were ignored.
See the voting record on invasion of another country
* You didn't get mad when hundreds of thousands of people died in Iraq.
See the voting record on invasion of another country
* You don't get mad having suffered for eight years, at the hands of Bush and Cheney who totally ignored the rule of law and the idea of democracy!
Dr. Paul wants to limit the power of the government to what is allowed in the constitution, no ifs, no buts, etc.
* You. republicans, finally got mad when the government decided that people in America deserved the right to see a doctor if they are sick. Yes, illegal wars, lies, corruption, torture, stealing your tax dollars to make the rich richer, are all okay with you, but helping other Americans...oh hell no.
every one has the right to see a doctor, Dr. Ron paul who himself is a physician has treated hundereds of people free of charge because they simply could not afford the bill, but he is still opposing the idea of obama care because he is a firm beliver in LESS government.
imagine this senario
you're neighbour is sick, he picks up his gun and comes to you're house and tells you to give him everything you have otherwise he will kill you because he is poor and cant afford his medical treatment, thats why he needs you're money..
well you wouldnt like being robbed would you?... well the american government is robbing its people and its unconistitutional and IT IS A CRIME.
from now on please try not to genralise the whole republican party the next time, there are many others like him in the party who are proud republicans.
for the source on the voting record see here
http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=296
his views on iraq, what he would cut (stuff like FED/IRS, abolish the income tax)
thank you for your attention, i hope you learned something.0 -
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i have, and you're stupidly long posts on trying to trying to paint the whole republican party with one crayon, seriously you need a reality check, when you have a 2 party political system, that doesnt mean everything will be black and white, there will always be shades of grey, ron paul isnt the only shade of grey, we have jesse ventura, Judge andrew, rand paul (running for senate in kentucky), and these are all pretty big libertarians and some of who are part of the republican partyAgain... I ask... did you read the rest of the thread? The whole Ron Paul thing has been debunked pretty thoroughly, so the original point still stands.
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imported_guy wrote: »i have, and you're stupidly long posts on trying to trying to paint the whole republican party with one crayon, seriously you need a reality check, when you have a 2 party political system, that doesnt mean everything will be black and white, there will always be shades of grey, ron paul isnt the only shade of grey, we have jesse ventura, Judge andrew, rand paul (running for senate in kentucky), and these are all pretty big libertarians and some of who are part of the republican party
Do you have any factual evidence or statistics to refute those I provided in my two "stupidly long posts?" I've provided direct evidence in the form of accepted scientific polling which clearly point out the majority thinking of the republican base on many key issues. Evidence that directly contradicts your claim of diversity of opinion within the republican party.
There might be individuals within the republican party with differing points of view, but it's clear what the MAJORITY of the party wants and this majority's opinion has been reflected in the ACTIONS of the republican party during it's period of power and in it's stances when outside of it.
Please, if you are able, refute a single one of my points, which I researched and provided evidence for. Or are you only able to dismiss my post outright and thus concede the point since you don't have any proof to counter my claims.
Since you found my posts too long.. let me sumarise the key findings...
70% of Republicans trust Fox News and rely on it for accurate reportage. These also consider all other news outlets to be biased and untrustworthy.
Republicans have a strongly favourable opinion of Rush Limbaugh with a margin of 60-23%. Moreover, he has currently over 14 million listeners.
88% of Republicans agreed with the Supreme Court Decision to abort the Florida recount and APPOINT G. W. Bush to the presidency of the U.S. of A. Further 97% of Republicans considered Bush's presidency to be legitimate.
Nearly two-thirds of Republicans argued that Cheny's refusal to hand over records relating to the ENRON scandal was based on the principal that the executive branch needs to be able to seek advice freely.
Only 12% of Republicans believed the patriot act goes too far in restricting civil liberties, while 61% believed it was "about right."
Over 74% of Republicans STILL believe that the U.S. was RIGHT to invade Iraq.
Only a minor 80% of Republicans believe that the use of torture on terrorism suspects is justified.
While 61% oppose an investigation into the use of torture.
THIS is what the republican majority and party stand for, as evidenced by the above statistics AND THEIR ACTIONS when they we're in power. Use whatever crayon you like, it won't change the facts.
I await your erudite dismal of my arguments accompanied by the mandatory ad hominem attacks.0 -
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Exile 1798 wrote: »Let's have a look at who's responsible for that 2 trillion dollar deicit.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/10/business/economy/10leonhardt.html?_r=2&hp
So as we can see, the Republicans laid waste to the economy and budget and now seek to blame it all on the new President.
What Republicans do when they are in power is cut taxes and raise spending and borrow borrrow borrrow. If there's a more cynical, more irresponsible major political party in the Western World I don't know of them.
Will the Democrats be able to address the debt in future? Well let's see, that would require two things
1) Raising taxes
2) Cutting spending
I'm sure if these two measures are proposed we will see a supportive, constructive response from the Republican opposition....:rolleyes:
1) taxes are unconstitutional
2) i agree with the cutting spending part, and those are pretty good facts on where the deficit came from since the start of obama's term but the democrats cutting spending and they never will, the 2 trillion deficit came from bailing out the banks, the iraq war, the afghan surge, all 3 of these are pretty retarded expenses, america shouldnt be at war with countries that did not attack them at all, the taliban had nothing to do with 9/11, neither did saddam hussien, it was just osama bin laden and some other people, who planned and carried out the operations from inside mainly germany and trained themselves inside the U.S.
obama should have let the banks to go into liquidation rather than bailing them out
and to understand the credit crisis look here
take a look at this, hope it will inform you more on how wrong the bailout was, and how it should have been done.
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