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Traitors to its own people?
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31-03-2010 10:32AM#1
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Aye, some of them are there and a few more were added here: http://digg.com/d31MtQR or here.
I don't get it. Why are the Republicans so out to ignore what the people want or need?
Can someone please, honestly, explain what besides money and pure profit (as far as I can see) is the ethos/foundation behind the Republican party?
Seriously, I'd love to know.
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donegalfella wrote: »This post has been deleted.
I'm not sure what your purpose in quoting Ron Paul was in this context. While I respect the man and his views (and don't necessarily agree with him on everything), if the point of quoting him was to demonstrate that the statement in the OP was false then it was incredibly disingenuous.
Firstly, Ron Paul is more a libertarian than a republican, and sadly, even as a republican he is more from the old school of centre-right conservatives than the modern GOP.
The sad fact is that Ron Paul is on the very fringe of the republican party as it stands. His views are neither respected nor popular within the mainstream of the GOP nor its supporters.
As such, his statements don't refute the OPs post in all but the most superficial manner. Because most of the republican party, and certainly those who vote for them, do ascribe to the hypocritical views described therein.
Which just goes to show you how extreme the right wing movement in America has become. When someone speaking as eloquently and intelligently as Ron Paul does is marginalised within his own party. They had a chance to nominate him in 2008 and who did they pick?
"As Putin rears his head and comes into the air space of the United States of America, where– where do they go? It's Alaska. It's just right over the border." --Sarah Palin"The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.""All of 'em, any of 'em that have been in front of me over all these years." --Sarah Palin, unable to name a single newspaper or magazine she reads, interview with Katie Couric, CBS News, Oct."Well, let's see. There's ― of course in the great history of America there have been rulings that there's never going to be absolute consensus by every American, and there are those issues, again, like Roe v. Wade, where I believe are best held on a state level and addressed there. So, you know, going through the history of America, there would be others but ―" --Sarah Palin, unable to name a Supreme Court decision she disagreed with other than Roe vs. Wade, interview with Katie Couric, CBS News, Oct. 1, 2008
The fact that she is a current star of the republican party and a darling of it and the tea-party movement tells you everything you need to know about these organisations and their supporters.0 -
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Must be.Sarah Palin and Bobby Jindal are CENTRIST? You must be joking...
Bobby Jindal is a Populist-Leaning Conservative,
Sarah Palin is Almost precisely the same: a Populist-Leaning Conservative
Source: http://ontheissues.org
Coulter cant shut her mouthIsn't Fox the 'Most trusted name in news,' at least as far as conservatives are concerned. And what about Coulter and Limbaugh (who I believe has the largest audience for political talk radio)?
I was watching O'Reilly on Sunday; that dude tried twice to give her an Out - she just refused to take them. Apparently she has a chip on her shoulder about the Canadians.
And Limbaugh, saying in relation to the Congressman that voted for Healthcare?
"We have to defeat these bastards."0 -
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Part 2 Continued...
The above addresses the issue of conservative opinion in the media. But the key argument here isn't about Coulter, Limbaugh or even Fox. The OP made an assertion about the opinion of "some Republican Americans and their stupid mentality!"
You cited Ron Paul as an example and went on to argue that these opinions do not in fact represent mainstream or popular republican/conservative views. You went on to further imply that there is a lot of diversity of opinion in the republican party and that these views are not actually representative of the party OR it's supporters. Let's look at it issue by issue.
1. You didn't get mad when the Supreme Court stopped a legal recount and appointed a President.
http://www.pollingreport.com/wh2post.htm
Okay this is a bit of an obvious one, and sadly all polls were divided as Pro-Bush or Pro-gore, rather than republican/democrat, but then what else can you expect?Newsweek Poll conducted by Princeton Survey Research Associates. Dec. 14-15, 2000. N=1,001 adults nationwide. MoE ± 4 for the total sample, ± 5 for Bush supporters and for Gore supporters.
"This week, by margin of 5 to 4, the United States Supreme Court reversed the Florida courts' decision and stopped hand recounts of presidential ballots in Florida. All in all, do you think the Supreme Court's decision to stop hand recounts in Florida was fair or unfair?"
All Bush Supporters Gore Supporters
Fair 51 88 19
Unfair 44 9 78
Don't know 5 3 3
What role, if any, do you think politics or partisanship played in the Supreme Court justices' decision? Do you think politics or partisanship played a major role in their decision, somewhat of a role, or no role at all?"
Major role 33 13 52
Somewhat of a role 32 35 29
No role at all 29 45 14
Don't know 6 7 5
2. You didn't get mad when Cheney allowed Energy company officials to dictate energy policy.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/02/28/opinion/polls/main502464.shtmlIS THE ADMINISTRATION HIDING SOMETHING THE PUBLIC NEEDS TO KNOW?
Now
Hiding something, public needs to know 56%
Hiding something, public doesn’t need to know 19
Not hiding anything 13
1/02
Hiding something, public needs to know 44
Hiding something, public doesn’t need to know 21
Not hiding anything 17
Republicans are more likely than Democrats to think the Bush Administration is being forthcoming, 23% to 4%. Even so, the number of Republicans who say the Administration is telling the truth has gone down; a month ago, 32% of Republicans said the Administration was telling the truth.
WHY IS CHENEY REFUSING TO DIVULGE RECORDS ON TASK FORCE?
Hiding something 53%
Principle 37
Political affiliation makes a big difference in people’s views on this matter. Nearly two thirds of Republicans think Cheney’s refusal to hand over the records was based on the principle that the executive branch needs to be able to seek advice freely, while 72% of Democrats say it was because the Vice President has something to hide.
Obviously republican's were up in arms about Cheney and knew exactly what he was up to!
3. Outing of Valerie Plame
I couldn't find any polling on the Valerie Plame issue so have left that one out.
4. You didn't get mad when the Patriot Act got passed.
Now we're beginning to get into the nitty gritty of things...
http://www.gallup.com/poll/17392/Liberty-vs-Security-Public-Mixed-Patriot-Act.aspx
Partisanship is a major factor when it comes to public opinion about the Patriot Act. More than a third (37%) of Democrats think it goes too far in restricting civil liberties, as do 4 in 10 political independents (40%) -- but only 12% of Republicans think the Patriot Act goes too far. Most Republicans, 61%, believe the Patriot Act is "about right" in trading off protection from terrorism with protection of civil liberties.
Ironically...It appears familiarity might breed some contempt when it comes to the Patriot Act. Among Americans who say they are very familiar with the law, 45% believe it goes too far in restricting civil liberties, while a third (33%) of those who are somewhat familiar think so. Just 20% of those who are not familiar with the law think it goes too far.
Interestingly, a poll conducted almost a year earlier than the above had this to say...
http://www.gallup.com/poll/10858/Americans-Generally-Comfortable-Patriot-Act.aspxDespite broad public support for the idea that the Patriot Act does not restrict civil liberties too much, pockets of resistance are evident in Gallup polling. Less than a majority of all political or demographic groups believe that the Patriot Act goes too far in sacrificing civil liberties, but a third or more of the following groups do take that position:
Self-described "liberals" (45% say it goes too far, while 23% say it is about right and 21% say it does not go far enough)
Americans with postgraduate educations (42% "too far" vs. 10% "not far enough")
Democrats (38% too far vs. 20% not far enough)
Military veterans (35% too far vs. 18% not far enough)
In addition to women, the groups least likely to say the act goes too far are Republicans, conservatives, people from rural areas, and those with no college education.
Republicans clearly rose up in vociferous opposition to the civil liberties destroying patriot act as one loud, unified protest!
5. You didn't get mad when ye illegally invaded a country that posed no threat to the USA.
A key issue methinks.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/106309/iraq-war-attitudes-politically-polarized.aspx
http://media.gallup.com/poll/graphs/080408Iraq3r2d6a7s9.gif
So, according to the above poll. 74% of Republicans think the U.S. did not make a mistake sending troops into Iraq. Nevermind the criminality of the matter.
Also....
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/1010-02.htmWASHINGTON - Of the major religious groups in the United States, evangelical Christians are the biggest backers of Israel and Washington's planned war against Iraq, says a new survey released here Wednesday by a politically potent group of fundamentalist Christians and Jews.
Some 69 percent of conservative Christians favor military action against Baghdad; 10 percentage points more than the U.S. adult population as a whole.
Once again the Republican mainstream were the staunchest opponents of the Iraq invasion to begin with and continue to firmly oppose the tyranny of this invasion till today.
6. You didn't get mad when you found out USA was torturing people.
Torture is surely an issue on which republicans refused to yield as highlighted by your Ron Paul quote above. Let's see what some others had to say about this?
http://www.gallup.com/poll/118006/Slim-Majority-Wants-Bush-Era-Interrogations-Investigated.aspx
http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/tfbta7udiuemspvzjlptdq.gif
Hmmm... only a dissapointing 80% of republicans seem to believe that torturing terrorism suspects is justified.
What about investigating whether people were tortured, whether any wrong was done?
Surely MOST republicans would want the truth to be uncovered on this point.
http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/lkghppp6_ew5ifat8pbseg.gif
Well only 61% don't want an investigation, still 37% is pretty awesome considering their track record on this issue so far.
A few of the other points fall under topics already covered in the above, and I stopped looking for more polls on the few remaining issues at this stage because I think a trend is starting to emerge here.
So here is the concluding summary to my argument.
The OP listed numerous attitudes that he (and many others) widely associate with the Republican party/GOP/ Mainstream base. It seems to me that you found those attitudes distateful and posted examples of Ron Paul to illustrate how these are in fact not widely held views at all and that there is a lot of desent and debate on these issues amongst republicans. And that it was indeed unfair to categorize republicans as holding such attitudes.
You further went on to dismiss my examples of Fox News and co as simply inflammatory arguments refusing to concede that they are indeed representative of mainstream republican/conservative opinion.
I have a lot of respect for you personally based on your past posts (otherwise I wouldn't have bothered spending the last few hours researching and compiling the above).
It seems to me that you find these attitudes distateful and cannot come to terms with the fact that these are in fact accurately representative of a political party and ideology that you seem to hold in favour, choosing the rather disingenuous approach of sticking your fingers in your ears, closing your eyes and planting your head firmly in the sand.
I hope these posts are at a level of discourse you find adequate. Also, after all this I can't see what else I could possibly say on this issue. So I'll leave you with the final rebuttal.0 -
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