Lean people of Ireland I need your help...

kevpants

...I'm horribly confused and fat.

I'm doing my annual weight loss thingy and in an attempt to figure out the best way to structure a diet I have broken my brain.

Exercise wise I'll be stuck for time so the odd hour long walk will occur but mainly it will be short bursts of intense cardio to try and improve times at things like rowing 500m, hill sprints, crossfit style WOD's etc. I need something to measure and high intensity to replace the strength training I'll be skipping. Just to reiterate that, there won't be any heavy compounds in the next 4-6 weeks so fuelling that isn't a concern.

I looked into ultra low carb but if I do intense cardio I'm gonna need carbs right? I also can't be dealing with the lethargy and mental degradation of all that considering baby arrival and sleep deprivation will be happening during this period.

So what I need is for advice on what I should strive for diet wise as far as a split goes. I don't need actual food recommendations as such, just pointers on how to make sure I'm fat burning rather than messing with my insulin levels or using up muscle during my intense cardio as opposed to stimulating fat loss.

Trying to research this has thrown up more contradictions than I can handle so I bow to the advice of people on this board.

God help us all.

J-Fit

The method I always return to (and I've tried everything) is a simple downgrading of calories that incorporates the exact same macronutrient content as when I'm gaining or maintaining. You have to remember that the overall governing rule that overides everything else is that if you burn off more calories than you consume, you will lose weight and of course you already know that. For me, I stick to roughly a 40/35/15 carbs/protein/fat ratio. When utilising this macronutrient ratio at low calories, eating clean is extremely important. That means that every calorie must count - no empty calories. This requires great discipline but the results come thick and fast. There are a few caveats:

- Protein ingestion will naturally fall and if you are running the same ratio you may want to offset this with a BCAA supplement - Calorie free protein.

- Take fish oils - they do all sorts of good things. Made me leaner, more alert, sleep better etc. Simply brilliant things - the effects are drug like.

- You haven't much wiggle room with the carbs. You want to hold on to your strength and to this end I wouldn't recommend going under 200g per day. Conversely, I would say go 250+. This is easily achievable while maintaining the required protein and fat intake but like I said, if you start including empty calories you put yourself in jeopardy. Limit it to whole grains, fruit, veg, brown rice and pasta and sweet potatos. I often get away with regular spuds too. For me when cutting, carbs is the macronutrient that I pay closest attention to. We're all good at knowing how much protein we take in but carbs tend to slip through the net. Seriously, this macronutrient more than any other can make or break a cut.

DM-BM

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/fat-loss-for-athletes-part-1.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/fat-loss-for-athletes-part-2.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/fat-loss-for-athletes-part-3.html

ragg

Unless you have some reason for doing it that i don't understand - there is no need to change your workouts, just your diet...

I lost about 3.5 stone, just dieting and strength training.

Diets are 10 a penny and most that are high protein and contain a drop in carbs will work - jsut find one that you can stick too. Alot of people think low carb will be easy, buts quite hard..

Personally I went low carb but i had carbs pre and post workout for fuel and to aid recovery, all other times i was on a keto style diet.

Congrats on the baby by the way.

kevpants

J-Fit wrote: »

The method I always return to (and I've tried everything) is a simple downgrading of calories that incorporates the exact same macronutrient content as when I'm gaining or maintaining. You have to remember that the overall governing rule that overides everything else is that if you burn off more calories than you consume, you will lose weight and of course you already know that. For me, I stick to roughly a 40/35/15 carbs/protein/fat ratio. When utilising this macronutrient ratio at low calories, eating clean is extremely important. That means that every calorie must count - no empty calories. This requires great discipline but the results come thick and fast. There are a few caveats:

- Protein ingestion will naturally fall and if you are running the same ratio you may want to offset this with a BCAA supplement - Calorie free protein.

- Take fish oils - they do all sorts of good things. Made me leaner, more alert, sleep better etc. Simply brilliant things - the effects are drug like.

- You haven't much wiggle room with the carbs. You want to hold on to your strength and to this end I wouldn't recommend going under 200g per day. Conversely, I would say go 250+. This is easily achievable while maintaining the required protein and fat intake but like I said, if you start including empty calories you put yourself in jeopardy. Limit it to whole grains, fruit, veg, brown rice and pasta and sweet potatos. I often get away with regular spuds too. For me when cutting, carbs is the macronutrient that I pay closest attention to. We're all good at knowing how much protein we take in but carbs tend to slip through the net. Seriously, this macronutrient more than any other can make or break a cut.

Thanks J. Discipline isn't a problem, I eat to be full and don't have a very refined palette or sweet tooth so I can eat planty of the right stuff instead of succumbing to the bad stuff. I'll just lose patince with a diet that leaves me weak.

Don't worry about the strength maintenance. I'll worry about that in May. I don't want to burn muscle in place of fat but if my strength trails off I'm not worried.

DM-BM wrote: »

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/fat-loss-for-athletes-part-1.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/fat-loss-for-athletes-part-2.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/fat-loss-for-athletes-part-3.html

This looks promising. Thanks a mill!

ragg wrote: »

Unless you have some reason for doing it that i don't understand - there is no need to change your workouts, just your diet...

I lost about 3.5 stone, just dieting and strength training.

Diets are 10 a penny and most that are high protein and contain a drop in carbs will work - jsut find one that you can stick too. Alot of people think low carb will be easy, buts quite hard..

Personally I went low carb but i had carbs pre and post workout for fuel and to aid recovery, all other times i was on a keto style diet.

Congrats on the baby by the way.

Thanks!

The change in training is for my sanity as much as anything else. I like to take a holiday from powerlifting as much as I do from work once a year. It's nice to switch goals for a short time.

It's this whole glycemic talk that throws me as well as the when to eat what type of carb etc. Strength is so much easier. Just eat stuff.

J-Fit

kevpants wrote: »

Thanks J. Discipline isn't a problem, I eat to be full and don't have a very refined palette or sweet tooth so I can eat planty of the right stuff instead of succumbing to the bad stuff. I'll just lose patince with a diet that leaves me weak.

Don't worry about the strength maintenance. I'll worry about that in May. I don't want to burn muscle in place of fat but if my strength trails off I'm not worried.

Even so, I'd still make a case for maintaining the carbs which are going to be the primary source of fuel for the anaerobic exercise you'll be undertaking. Remember that carbohydrate is protein-sparing. The body will preferentially use carbs as a fuel before it ever considers utilising amino acids - they are just not efficient as a fuel. Low carb can do funny things to a man's mind also!

kevpants wrote: »

It's this whole glycemic talk that throws me as well as the when to eat what type of carb etc. Strength is so much easier. Just eat stuff.

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter. You're already aware that high glycemic foods should only be consumed peri-workout and outside of that it should be clean carbs only. As long as none of these compromise the overall calorie deficit, your final result will largely be the same either way because you know how to hold on to your muscle mass - high protein. Of course this might all be immaterial because you might go the low carb route but that's down to yourself!

Chet Zar

kevpants wrote: »

Thanks J. Discipline isn't a problem, I eat to be full and don't have a very refined palette or sweet tooth so I can eat planty of the right stuff instead of succumbing to the bad stuff. I'll just lose patince with a diet that leaves me weak.

Don't worry about the strength maintenance. I'll worry about that in May. I don't want to burn muscle in place of fat but if my strength trails off I'm not worried.



This looks promising. Thanks a mill!



Thanks!

The change in training is for my sanity as much as anything else. I like to take a holiday from powerlifting as much as I do from work once a year. It's nice to switch goals for a short time.

It's this whole glycemic talk that throws me as well as the when to eat what type of carb etc. Strength is so much easier. Just eat stuff.

Nice to see you mixing things up! Are you going to have to omit the 'what is the sense of their beautiful figures' part of your sig now that you care what you look like?

Would agree with most of the above - the whole glycemic thing that you see all over the net is overblown really - it really is quite simple losing weight - it's just the execution that can be hard! The glycemic side of things relates to sugar content of food essentially - high GI foods like say croissants or cakes or biscuits or white bread will spike insulin, making it hard to burn fat and making it easy to store it.

One thing I can't recommend enough - especially if you do find it hard shifting the weight at any point - is keeping a food log for a time. Just track everything you eat and drink and put calories (even approximate figures) against them. You'll soon see where you're going wrong.

token

A Paleo diet works and doesn't require much thought. By it's nature it's lower calorie and you can use your apetite as a guide if you are eating too little or too much. Has worked for me along with crossfit wods. I've been doing that since Janurary. All the extra fat I gained before Christmas with a GOMAD and all you can eat eating frenzy is gone. Just working on getting rid of the fat I had before GOMAD now and hittin' the beach :rolleyes:

corkcomp

J-Fit wrote: »

The method I always return to (and I've tried everything) is a simple downgrading of calories that incorporates the exact same macronutrient content as when I'm gaining or maintaining. You have to remember that the overall governing rule that overides everything else is that if you burn off more calories than you consume, you will lose weight and of course you already know that. For me, I stick to roughly a 40/35/15 carbs/protein/fat ratio. When utilising this macronutrient ratio at low calories, eating clean is extremely important. That means that every calorie must count - no empty calories. This requires great discipline but the results come thick and fast. There are a few caveats:

- Protein ingestion will naturally fall and if you are running the same ratio you may want to offset this with a BCAA supplement - Calorie free protein.

- Take fish oils - they do all sorts of good things. Made me leaner, more alert, sleep better etc. Simply brilliant things - the effects are drug like.

- You haven't much wiggle room with the carbs. You want to hold on to your strength and to this end I wouldn't recommend going under 200g per day. Conversely, I would say go 250+. This is easily achievable while maintaining the required protein and fat intake but like I said, if you start including empty calories you put yourself in jeopardy. Limit it to whole grains, fruit, veg, brown rice and pasta and sweet potatos. I often get away with regular spuds too. For me when cutting, carbs is the macronutrient that I pay closest attention to. We're all good at knowing how much protein we take in but carbs tend to slip through the net. Seriously, this macronutrient more than any other can make or break a cut.

that pretty much sums it up .. the macro breakdown recommended there is spot on - enough carbs to fuel cardio and keep your strength and enough protein to ensure no muscle loss... ensure you carb up before hiit type sessions but dont worry about doing low intensity stuff i.e. walking without having taken in carbs

theluckyduck

I've done a few "diets" but here a few things that i found worked well:

1: Make lunch your main meal rather than dinner. It will help to keep your brain ticking over during the day.

2. Restrict carbohydrates to before training and none after.

3. Walk as often as you can. I found walking before bedtime made me sleep better and aided fat loss.

4. Have a huge meal once/twice a week, don't ask me why but I still lost weight and felt better mentally and physicly, not Mc Donalds tho!!

I'll think of more later and post them up!!!

DM-BM

The one thing that has been said in the above posts that i seriously disagree with is to lower your protein intake.

Anything I've read points to this being a bad move from a muscle maintenance point of view. You need to keep your protein intake at around 3.3g/kg LBM and let your deficit come from a reduction in carbs and fats.
The bigger the deficit the more important/higher the protein intake needs to be.

You say you don't want to lose muscle, well while in a deficit, to keep your muscle you need to ingest enough protein, and give it enough stimulus to hang around. Reducing calories by reducing protein and reducing the stimulus to keep your LBM, (by laying off heavy lifting) is a bad move IMO.

corkcomp

35% of total calories from protein is PLENTY .. assuming calorie intake is not stupidly low ..

kevpants

Chet Zar wrote: »

Nice to see you mixing things up! Are you going to have to omit the 'what is the sense of their beautiful figures' part of your sig now that you care what you look like?

Lol! It's more about not dying than looking good. Heart attacks in the family and I carry all my fat as the bad belly stuff!

corkcomp

kevpants wrote: »

Lol! It's more about not dying than looking good. Heart attacks in the family and I carry all my fat as the bad belly stuff!

LOL is this the same kevpants from the kevpants V brad thread?:pac: on a serious note, cardio is good for belly fat and it means you dont need to eat like a monk

cmyk

kevpants wrote: »

Lol! It's more about not dying than looking good. Heart attacks in the family and I carry all my fat as the bad belly stuff!

I'm sure Barry/Will would give you another spin on the prowler!

kevpants

corkcomp wrote: »

LOL is this the same kevpants from the kevpants V brad thread?:pac: on a serious note, cardio is good for belly fat and it means you dont need to eat like a monk

Ahem. If I recall corectly I advised worrying about fat gained "later".

It's now later

corkcomp

kevpants wrote: »

Ahem. If I recall corectly I advised worrying about fat gained "later".

It's now later

lol I wasnt going to mention that ..

J-Fit

DM-BM wrote: »

The one thing that has been said in the above posts that i seriously disagree with is to lower your protein intake.

Anything I've read points to this being a bad move from a muscle maintenance point of view. You need to keep your protein intake at around 3.3g/kg LBM and let your deficit come from a reduction in carbs and fats.
The bigger the deficit the more important/higher the protein intake needs to be.

You say you don't want to lose muscle, well while in a deficit, to keep your muscle you need to ingest enough protein, and give it enough stimulus to hang around. Reducing calories by reducing protein and reducing the stimulus to keep your LBM, (by laying off heavy lifting) is a bad move IMO.

This is an overplayed method that I think it originates in bodybuilding lore. If you crunch the numbers you'll realise that even 35% of a sub 3,000 calorie diet will still work out in excess of 200g of protein per day. Absolutely enough. As I stated, the only reason your body is ever going to use muscle mass as a fuel is in the absence of a sufficient amount of carbs and fats. Your metabolism does not indiscriminantly choose whatever macronutrient it feels like to utilise as fuel. Carbs and fats are the primary macros by which ATP is sythesised and if they are in sufficient supply, which they will be, there is no reason for the body to ever choose protein (muscle mass) as a fuel. Carbohydrates are 'protein sparing' in that they will be sacrificed long before protein as a source of energy. Muscle mass is too hard to convert to fuel and will only ever be utilised under conditions of starvation. It's difficult enough to lose muscle mass and there exists an unnecessary paranoia in trying to preserve it. To put kevpants' mind at ease, he could supplement with BCAA's to doubly ensure. Contrary to popular belief, our bodies are not eating themselves all day long and if they are, it's stored glycogen and fat that they're gorging on.

Chet Zar

J-Fit wrote: »

This is an overplayed method that I think it originates in bodybuilding lore. If you crunch the numbers you'll realise that even 35% of a sub 3,000 calorie diet will still work out in excess of 200g of protein per day. Absolutely enough. As I stated, the only reason your body is ever going to use muscle mass as a fuel is in the absence of a sufficient amount of carbs and fats. Your metabolism does not indiscriminantly choose whatever macronutrient it feels like to utilise as fuel. Carbs and fats are the primary macros by which ATP is sythesised and if they are in sufficient supply, which they will be, there is no reason for the body to ever choose protein (muscle mass) as a fuel. Carbohydrates are 'protein sparing' in that they will be sacrificed long before protein as a source of energy. Muscle mass is too hard to convert to fuel and will only ever be utilised under conditions of starvation. It's difficult enough to lose muscle mass and there exists an unnecessary paranoia in trying to preserve it. To put kevpants' mind at ease, he could supplement with BCAA's to doubly ensure. Contrary to popular belief, our bodies are not eating themselves all day long and if they are, it's stored glycogen and fat that they're gorging on.

Just glad you wrote it to save me doing it!!

corkcomp

Chet Zar wrote: »

Just glad you wrote it to save me doing it!!

me too

Pavel66

Hi Kev,

I have been thinking of doing the same myself, and having met you at the weekend I can safely say that I am a lot fatter than you. About 18 months ago I somehow came across a website by a guy called Rob Faigin http://www.hormonalfitness.com/

I purchased his book - Natural Hormonal Enhancement. A highly interesting book. The main idea is macronutrient cycling i.e low carb days and high carb days. I tried it and it definitely worked. The only problem was my wife does nearly all the cooking and I had her stressed out worrying about what I could and couldn't eat on certain days

I dropped from 102kg to 90 kg over about 6 months - I didn't stick to the plan all the time. When I started getting into the strength training I started eating all around me, with the excuse that I needed the extra food to keep my strength up. I am now back to 100kg.

Another option is the Velocity diet, which I heard off just recently after reading Dan John's book - Never Let Go. It's not his diet, but he tried it and it woked for him. It's 28 days of protein shakes and fish oil supps, with one real meal a week. If you have the mentality it may suit you.

In any event, if you are interested in these books pm me and I can arrange to meet you and loan them to you. I may have some others aswell...

J-Fit

Pavel, great results with the diet, well done. I'm not sure what Faigin's book was like but it seemed to work well for you. I would however steer clear of the velocity diet. It's nothing more than a marketing tool for t-nation/biotest to sell more protein shakes and they should know better. No doubt it will work but I think there are more well rounded options.

Hanley

Kev already knows my thoughts on this, but it's time to crack out the old annoying arrogant Hanley style of posting anyway...

Hands up who went from 110kg with a 41 inch waist and >20mm suprailliac skindfold to 96kg with a sub 34 inch waist and <10mm suprailliac skinfold in 9 months?

Keep your hand up if you hit a PR bench, raw PR Squat and PR deadlift at the new, lighter bodyweight??

Keep your hand up if you gained muscle during this period.

Keep your hand up if you got 1,000x fitter during this period too? And did it all while going thru a period of 4 months with around 4-6 hours sleep per night, max.

Finally, keep your hand up if you're in love with yourself, think you know everything and are about to lecture everyone on what to do....

*Looks around...* Right, just me so.

My method's so ridiculously simple it's not even funny;

-Bodyweight in lbs x12 = kcals
-kcals split 40/30/30 pcf initially, tapering down to 50/20/30 or 40/20/40 pcf
-split it over 6-8 meals
-train with a mix of CF and strength training
-stick at it for 4-8 weeks
-profit

It's not that hard, and it's all there in less than 40 words, so it's obviously way too simple to be effective!!

the drifter

Hanley wrote: »

Finally, keep your hand up if you're in love with yourself, think you know everything and are about to lecture everyone on what to do....
*Looks around...* Right, just me so.

:D:D

corkcomp

absolute arrogance:rolleyes::D but very true... what it says in plain english is eat less but continue to move heavy things

Inspector Coptoor

i went from 118.8kg with a 39 inch waist to 105kg with a 35 inch waist.

i havent had a chance to test my maxes as I was injured for the nationals.

Ive posted my diet here before
but here it is again.

7.05 am Cup of Coffee and two fat burners (i;m using the thermopure fat burners from my protein, no ephedra.
7.10 am - 30 min LIT walk
8.00 am - on the way to work - 500ml grapefruit juice, 5 fish oil tablets
8.30 am - still on the way to work - low carb protein shake with 5g L-Leucine
11.00 am - break time in school - low carb protein shake
1.00 pm - lucnh time in school - low carb protein shake, 5 fish oil tablets
3.00 pm - coffee
5.00 pm - Pre Workout - 2 fat burners, coffee, 2 kre alkalyn creatine tablets
6.30 pm - post workout - low carb protein shake with 5g L-Leucine and 5g apple fibre., 1 kre alkalyn, 5 fish oil tabs, 1 x animal pak
7.00pm Dinner - Meat, 2 portions green veg/carrots, low carb protein shake
10.00 pm - before bed. low carb protein shake, 5 fish oil tabelts, 3 ZMA tablets, 1 x animal flex, 1 x 50g sachet of beef jerky

lately ive gone back eating more proper food but the diet served its purpose.
to lose fat quickly

it does work

corkcomp

TBH what works is the total cals in and the macro breakdown of those cals .. the rest is up to the individual ..

Hanley

corkcomp wrote: »

absolute arrogance:rolleyes::D but very true... what it says in plain english is eat less but continue to move heavy things

Eat less carbs, keep lifting heavy, increase overall conditioning level

Did it in 10 words!!

EDIT: I'm on the way to 94kg too... Wonder if I can do it for the IAWLA senior nationals, that's if I'm allowed lift!!

itsallaboutheL

Hanley wrote: »

I'm on the way to 94kg too... Wonder if I can do it for the IAWLA senior nationals, that's if I'm allowed lift!!

Ya Bollox!!

legend365

Ill be cutting in a month or 2. Plan is nice clean, lean diet but no carbs after workout.

I know i'll lose weight but is there actually a way to keep the weight while destroying that layer of fat over the 6 pack?

corkcomp

legend365 wrote: »

Ill be cutting in a month or 2. Plan is nice clean, lean diet but no carbs after workout.

I know i'll lose weight but is there actually a way to keep the weight while destroying that layer of fat over the 6 pack?

clean diet, cardio and lifting heavy along with calorie deficit = fat loss .. thats about as scientific as it gets

J-Fit

corkcomp wrote: »

clean diet, cardio and lifting heavy along with calorie deficit = fat loss .. thats about as scientific as it gets

100%. And I'd add that if you are dropping carbs, it isn't the post-workout ones that you should be foregoing.

legend365

corkcomp wrote: »

clean diet, cardio and lifting heavy along with calorie deficit = fat loss .. thats about as scientific as it gets

These key ingredients would absoultley destory the last 4 months of bulking though.

I'd be back under 80kg in a matter of weeks. (from 79 to 85 in 4 months)

Therefore i'll have acheived nothing....??? I too am confizzled

Weight loss isn't my problem here.

corkcomp

legend365 wrote: »

These key ingredients would absoultley destory the last 4 months of bulking though.

I'd be back under 80kg in a matter of weeks. (from 79 to 85 in 4 months)

Therefore i'll have acheived nothing....??? I too am confizzled

Weight loss isn't my problem here.

it sounds like you want it both ways dude... either way, you need to create a calorie deficit to lose fat. those ingredients wont destroy lean muscle mass as long as your diet is good and you keep lifting

kevpants

Been reading a lot of Alwyn Cosgrove's stuff. Very enlightening.

Been doing interval type stuff the last 3 nights. Puked the first night. Last two were ok.

Carbs are in but I'm trying to keep a cal defecit. Using fitday to work out what the hell I eat a day in terms of kcals.

I'll update my log sometime this weekend with what I'm actually doing.

Chet Zar

kevpants wrote: »

Been reading a lot of Alwyn Cosgrove's stuff. Very enlightening.

Been doing interval type stuff the last 3 nights. Puked the first night. Last two were ok.

Carbs are in but I'm trying to keep a cal defecit. Using fitday to work out what the hell I eat a day in terms of kcals.

I'll update my log sometime this weekend with what I'm actually doing.

Good stuff, will be watching with interest Good to see you're using fitday, not a fan of their site per se but as I was saying keeping a food log is a really, really great way of seeing if you are on the right track.

J-Fit

Chet Zar wrote: »

Good stuff, will be watching with interest Good to see you're using fitday, not a fan of their site per se but as I was saying keeping a food log is a really, really great way of seeing if you are on the right track.

I agree. I find Fitday tedious. Dailyburn is excellent though. Most of the typical brands that you'll find yourself eating are already uploaded and it's an iphone app.