Med Card Treatment Gone April 1st

DaveTwenty7

Hi all,
I just had a patient inform me that she rang the HSE to get her new medical number and was told all dental treatment bar extractions will not be covered from April 1st.
dentists to get letter tomorrow (31st March) informing them of the full details

Plek Trum

Yes - this has been circulating in Kerry for the past few days and was confirmed via phonecall to IDA headoffice. Only treatment to be covered as of THIS Thursday, extractions and presciption. Ridiculous state of affairs, I wonder sometimes what the IDA does to fight on the professions' behalf.

Totally unacceptable - not for the Dentist solely but the knock on effect of staff employment (Will have to let staff go, reduce hours / pay), lab technicians the same etc. Put's more people on social welfare assistance, reduces the oral hygiene of patients leading to more costs in the longterm.

Very short sighted approach and NO notfication with time period attached in order to notify patients and allow them to avail of their existing entitlements. Another shambolic decision along with the abolition of the PRSI scheme.

Dental care is becoming an elitist entitlement to those with money that can afford to do it privately. Two tiered society ? I think so.

ballsymchugh

oh bollox.

day dreamer

Hard to believe!

It really is a two tier health system now even for basic items. Those who can pay will get treatment and those who cant will suffer.

The IDA did get caught out with the PRSI scheme but this has been well flagged since the budget.

We and all out patients need to continue to lobby politicians and whoever will listed. A very bad day for our patients and dentistry in general.

_Whimsical_

That is disgraceful.I can't believe there hasn't been more an outcry over this.

Does anyone know if this policy includes front teeth fillings? Surely they would not advocate removing front teeth rather than filling them?

That would have an enormous impact on every aspect of a patients life.

Misticles

Thats disgraceful!!
Whats the point in having this card, when they are taking everything that was once a benefit off it!!!

The HSE disgust me!!!!

ballsymchugh

chilly wrote: »

That is disgraceful.I can't believe there hasn't been more an outcry over this.

Does anyone know if this policy includes front teeth fillings? Surely they would not advocate removing front teeth rather than filling them?

That would have an enormous impact on every aspect of a patients life.

apparently the policy does affect all fillings.
now the government are taking a hit in revenue, as there will be numerous dental nurses let go, a lot of technicians will be very quiet and more than a few dentists taking off out of here. there won't be any point in opening up for a full day when you can get all the work done in an hour or two.
talk about a great way to stimulate the economy. even the VAT on materials adds up. i'd love to know the tax take on everything dental, just as a matter of interest!

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Disgrace, A total disaster for patients and dental practices. Dentistry is now a fully private expense, no government help, In the words of the immortal Clay Davis.........

res ipsa

A good day to bury bad news, the papers will be full of NAMA haircuts, public sector deals and bank blood money.

Theres a reason why the stock exchange, unemployment and alcohol consumption have gone back to 1995 levels, its where the living standards of irish citizens are heading.

When I graduated in 1999, the medical card was limited to 1 treatment per year, but at least there was PRSI for the dentists.

What next?

VAT on dental treatment?
Associates lose self-employed status?

lucy2010

Sorry, Just to clarify.... I have toothache & a medical card. So I go to my dentist & I have a choice
a. Extraction
b. suffer
c. pay for it myself ??????

Seems extreemly harsh... So in 20 years time unless I pay myself i will be toothless & will have to pay for dentures myself ?????

ballsymchugh

res ipsa wrote: »

A good day to bury bad news, the papers will be full of NAMA haircuts, public sector deals and bank blood money.

Theres a reason why the stock exchange, unemployment and alcohol consumption have gone back to 1995 levels, its where the living standards of irish citizens are heading.

When I graduated in 1999, the medical card was limited to 1 treatment per year, but at least there was PRSI for the dentists.

What next?

VAT on dental treatment?
Associates lose self-employed status?

actually, yes. my boss was telling me that last week, the definition of self employed is being tweaked from someone who doesn't make money when they don't work, to someone who loses money when they don't work, which will mean that associates will need to buy in to keep self employment status, or become PAYE.

vishal

if one shares expenses then one would still be self-employed?

ballsymchugh

vishal wrote: »

if one shares expenses then one would still be self-employed?

i think that's the only way around it. it's more an accountant's territory though. even if you just employed your own assistant it should work

Luxy

This article from the Independent a week ago goes into it.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dentists-told-take-cheaper-option-and-pull-more-teeth-2108840.html

This is just unreal. I have a check-up booked for April 8th. I'm going to have to call tomorrow & cancel it. A few months ago I may have been able to afford outrageously priced dental treatment, but not at the moment. The state of this country is swift becoming an embarrassment. We have countries like the US making massive strides in the protection of the most in need of assistance with their new Healthcare Bill. Then we have Ireland reverting back to 50's standards, where it was acceptable to pull a tooth due to anything from a broken tooth to a minor cavity. I'm shocked & disgusted.

_Whimsical_

Luxy wrote: »

This article from the Independent a week ago goes into it.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dentists-told-take-cheaper-option-and-pull-more-teeth-2108840.html

This is just unreal. I have a check-up booked for April 8th. I'm going to have to call tomorrow & cancel it. A few months ago I may have been able to afford outrageously priced dental treatment, but not at the moment. The state of this country is swift becoming an embarrassment. We have countries like the US making massive strides in the protection of the most in need of assistance with their new Healthcare Bill. Then we have Ireland reverting back to 50's standards, where it was acceptable to pull a tooth due to anything from a broken tooth to a minor cavity. I'm shocked & disgusted.

When you call be sure to ask if perhaps they will still provide free treatments that were covered until the first for patients who had their appointment booked in advance of the 1st of April.
I remember they did do this for PRSI patients when their treatments ceased to be covered.
Ask anyway just in case.

Luxy

Thanks for that chilly, I'll do that first.

davo10

I think after last night it has ecome clear that these cuts owe a lot to the actions of Mr.s Cowen, Fitzpatrick, Fingleton and their buddies. There is some extractions I'd gladly do for free on behalf of us all.

theg81der

Its amazing how quick they can do some things isn`t it?

Their not afraid of poor people, they had to give their banker and developer friends enough time to hide their millions and claim bankrupsy but never mind the weakest elements of, soon to be toothless, society!

georgieporgy

With no teeth the poor people won't be able to bite them. Maybe they do know what they are doing??

btkm8unsl0w5r4

davo10 wrote: »

I think after last night it has ecome clear that these cuts owe a lot to the actions of Mr.s Cowen, Fitzpatrick, Fingleton and their buddies. There is some extractions I'd gladly do for free on behalf of us all.

No Anaesthetic I hope, literally the irish people will pay for thee guys greed with body parts.......

ballsymchugh

davo10 wrote: »

I think after last night it has ecome clear that these cuts owe a lot to the actions of Mr.s Cowen, Fitzpatrick, Fingleton and their buddies. There is some extractions I'd gladly do for free on behalf of us all.

i always wondered what it'd be like to do an extraction by kicking alone. i'm going to look for a job in dublin 1, in the hope that patrick bartholomew aherne himself pops in.

georgieporgy

you trying to cut costs by reducing the need for gloves and sterilisation?

ballsymchugh

if he could hold a tesco bag or something in front of his face to collect anything that falls out then that'd be super!

Love2love

Can't dind anything on the HSE website about it and there is nothing in the papers. Can anyone confirm with a link? Think it could be a April Fools Joke, no?

ballsymchugh

haven't had anything about it in the post today. dave is that patient a reliable source?!!

Plek Trum

ballsymchugh wrote: »

haven't had anything about it in the post today. dave is that patient a reliable source?!!

Nothing official as of yet although it seems to be an absolute accepted fact. Odd that a statement has not yet been issued. Definate lay offs and cutbacks in the dental employment area if it is true. HSE will save money on GMS Dental only to push the burden over the Social Welfare who in turn will have to pay out more in Unemployment Assistance to staff. So much for a government trying to stimulate the economy and hold onto jobs.

HSE needs to weed out all those on medical cards that don't genuinely need them. I'm sorry, but I have countless examples of people with medical cards who go travelling abroad for 4 months of the year, EACH year, drive top of the range luxury cars, others who can afford numerous summer camps and trips abroad for their kids after exams etc etc. Some of these are approved for up to 10 years in advance. The list goes on...

If cards were taken from those that can afford not to live, but live with luxury (things they sometimes deem "essential") then its just possible that the system may be able to survive to help those that need it most. Not saying its the peoples fault as such, by nature people will claim and apply for what they are entitled to. The medical card approval system needs to readdress its existing criteria and re-evaluate those that currently hold cards.

lucy2010

goat2 wrote: »

picture this
i have no medical card, never had
have a toothache, i have to put up with if i have and had no money
dental charges are gone through the roof
so most of the time i take painkillers, and hope it goes, it is only after a few days if it get worse that i will face dentist, out of despration

welcome to my world
right now i am out of work, do to this ecomemy

Sorry Goat I should have said it was a "what if" situation. I thank God ,do not have a tooth ache.I was just seeing is that what the 3 options would be if I did have 1.

I for years was in a similar situation to yourself, just could not afford dental - everything else was more essential than a toothache. I too lost my job last year & due to my illness I luckily managed to get a medical card last November - after a huge battle . I have never had to use it yet for myself thank God - Ive been in a good patch since so thankful I have yet to use it, my 2 little people both had chest infections last week & I was never so grateful for it in all my life. ( It would have been €120 as both got them on seperate days) TBH I would not have had €12 to take them to the doctor let alone the €120 plus prescriptions.

I feel your pain & i do agree many people who have them baffle me as to how they managed to get them in the first place, let alone keep them. The abuse of medical cards is huge too. I have a cousin who without fail visits the gp every week for either her,her child or her partner. It is sickening that such abuse is allowed to take place. Its a given that if she had to pay out of her own pocket you wouldnt see her there even once a year .

Big_G

I am self employed. When I go to the doctor, I pay for it. When I go to the dentist (I would anyway if I wasn't in the business), I pay for it, when I go to my accountant, I pay for it. I pay for health insurance, I pay income tax, I pay rent, I contribute to this society for someone who is on the medical card to tell me that I charge too much? Come off it.

Get over the sense of entitlement. If you're posting here, it means you can afford internet access. You're not that badly off.

Luxy

Actually, I have internet access because I was forced to move back in with my parents after I was made redundant. I'm struggling to save enough to start a course & put my life back together, because like most others laid off, I just did not see it coming & I didn't have a plan for "just in case". Having to make a choice between my health & my future is a tough decision you know. Maybe have a bit of understanding for those in situations different to your own.

goat2

Big_G wrote: »

I am self employed. When I go to the doctor, I pay for it. When I go to the dentist (I would anyway if I wasn't in the business), I pay for it, when I go to my accountant, I pay for it. I pay for health insurance, I pay income tax, I pay rent, I contribute to this society for someone who is on the medical card to tell me that I charge too much? Come off it.

Get over the sense of entitlement. If you're posting here, it means you can afford internet access. You're not that badly off.

i understand all that, but now that things are the way they are, most of this country are hanging on by the skin of their teeth anyway, i am one of those, i do think things should come down in price, as people do not have the money to pay big fees anymore, i put up with the toothache as i need bread and butter first, i have not been out on an evening since christmas, i only even went out once then,
as for the internet, this is the only extra i pay for, i do not have to buy the daily newspaper that is 2 euro per day which would add to 60 per month, while the internet costs 19.99 euro per month

Eoin_Sheehy

You could just hope it's an April fools joke!

Luxy

Eoin_Sheehy wrote: »

You could just hope it's an April fools joke!

Ha ha, fingers crossed! That'd certainly be the best news I've had all year!

Big_G

I do feel for you, but you must understand that dentistry costs money and that money must come from somewhere. As it was, most dentists were taking a 50% or more reduction in fees for medical card treatments.

Dentists like any business, have expenses. And ours are significantly higher than most other businesses. We have to make a living on top of that. Already in my practice there has been as much as a 40% reduction in fees on some procedures. Others we couldn't reduce because we were already bottom lining them. Examination is, in many practices, a loss leader. That is, we actually make a loss on a 15 minute exam fee of 30 - 40 euro. That is how much it costs to run a dental practice.

Unlike GP practice, we don't get subsidies from the government for secretarial costs and we have to pay a massive amount for clinical waste disposal, as it has to be shipped to Portugal to be incinerated. I think we pay 40 euro for one standard sized rubbish bag. 40 euro!

I am an associate, so I take 50% of the fee that you the patient pays to see me. So for a 15-30 minute examination slot, I take 20 euro, then pay tax on that. My sister made more money substitute teaching. She made 44 euro an hour for, as she described it, "babysitting".

So, I have sympathy for you in that you have been made redundant and are living at home, but for those of us that still have jobs (and I may not now that the medical card is gone) we cannot work for free.

Also, I don't get any benefits of employment including prsi contributions, paid holidays, paid sick leave etc. If I'm not working, I'm not making any money. I think I deserve what I earn for dealing with a difficult public in a highly skilled and demanding job which I had to work very hard to get to. So I'm sick of hearing that I overcharge for what I do. Bull****. You value your teeth, just not enough to pay to get them fixed.

Rant over.

Luxy

I don't know who metioned that you overcharge. I did not say that & I certainly don't think so. When I was working I never gave the fees a second thought, if anything I think everyone in any health related profession should be entitled to charge far more for their service. Especially when there are so many who can can afford it.

My only gripe is with the fact that I lost my job, at a bank, because of the government's bad decisions. The only safety net I had to fall back on was the one they were supposed to providing for people in that kind of situation. If the government were willing to take pay cuts themselves, rather than shifting their losses on to public & healthcare workers, we wouldn't be in this situation. I wouldn't feel sh**ty for complaining about it and your hands wouldn't be tied when it comes to treating people and trying to make ends meet within your own job.

Resi12

I am officially depressed from this news. I'm 19 and have an abscess which means a root canal, I can't afford this? Oh fook I'm screwed.

America is going forward and we're going backwards.

Big_G

Luxy wrote: »

This article from the Independent a week ago goes into it.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dentists-told-take-cheaper-option-and-pull-more-teeth-2108840.html

This is just unreal. I have a check-up booked for April 8th. I'm going to have to call tomorrow & cancel it. A few months ago I may have been able to afford outrageously priced dental treatment, but not at the moment. The state of this country is swift becoming an embarrassment. We have countries like the US making massive strides in the protection of the most in need of assistance with their new Healthcare Bill. Then we have Ireland reverting back to 50's standards, where it was acceptable to pull a tooth due to anything from a broken tooth to a minor cavity. I'm shocked & disgusted.

That is all.

Luxy

Sorry Big G, I didn't even recall saying that, I apologise. Perhaps it was just in the heat of the moment, but still I'm sorry for any offence caused.

Luxy

http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=17049

http://www.cosmeticdentistryguide.co.uk/news/irish-dentists-angered-by-budget-cuts-4886

Incidentally, here are a few more articles to suggest it isn't an April Fool's joke.

eth0_

Resi12 wrote: »

I am officially depressed from this news. I'm 19 and have an abscess which means a root canal, I can't afford this? Oh fook I'm screwed.

America is going forward and we're going backwards.

Surely if you've already begun treatment for this you will still get it for free?

_Whimsical_

Resi12 wrote: »

I am officially depressed from this news. I'm 19 and have an abscess which means a root canal, I can't afford this? Oh fook I'm screwed.

America is going forward and we're going backwards.

I am open to correction but I don't think that root canal was ever covered on the medical card scheme. It may have been covered for a front tooth but not on the back teeth.

Luxy

They're covered for the six front teeth, top & bottom as far as I know. Anything further back will have to be pulled or you'll have to pay for it yourself regardless of whether or not you have a medical card.

Armas22

Just a quick question - if this is all true, will those of us with medical cards be private patients? Will dentists make any allowance for people with medical cards with the fees they charge? If I have to pay full private fees, i will only be going to a dentist when I have pain- any dentist who I can find on the day. At least with the medical card I could go regularly up to now.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Armas22 wrote: »

Just a quick question - if this is all true, will those of us with medical cards be private patients? Will dentists make any allowance for people with medical cards with the fees they charge? If I have to pay full private fees, i will only be going to a dentist when I have pain- any dentist who I can find on the day. At least with the medical card I could go regularly up to now.

You wont be private, but the types of treatment you can get is more limited. Extractions and prescriptions, and only with permission and special circumstances fillings etc.....

lizzie09

Is this definite?

I still have heard nothing in the media about

btkm8unsl0w5r4

I deleted more off topic posts there. You guys are warned, this thread is to discuss the changes to medical card dental treatment, anything else should be taken to another thread. Any further off topics on this thread will get the poster a 1 month ban without exception.

ballsymchugh

Scott Savory Magic wrote: »

I deleted more off topic posts there. You guys are warned, this thread is to discuss the changes to medical card dental treatment, anything else should be taken to another thread. Any further off topics on this thread will get the poster a 1 month ban without exception.

8.24 on easter sunday morning though??!!

Luxy

I was just wondering, have any of the dentists here received notification of this change yet. It was mentioned at the beginning of the topic that you'd be getting a letter. (I'm aware that it's a bank holiday, I'm just curious to know whether you've heard anything yet.)

Big_G

Not a peep from the HSE yet...

digzy

I feel your pain. The country's gone to the dogs and it's hard to see a chink of light at the end of the tunnel.
I've a few bees in my bonnet too........
Plumber charged me 50 for a 5 min callout to tell me a different plumber to sort the problem
Sollicitor billed me 2k for what i reckon wasn't a half days work!
As part of transaction auctioneer charged 200 for about 15 mins measuring a 1 bed flat.
had an ultrasound done (covered under vhi thank god) about 15 mins and she charged them 600
Scratched the car and garage charged 675 for a no more than days labour.

Whether these figures are excessive is a matter of opinion. In a dental practice we've a combination of expenses outside of the obvious.Professional indemnity,dental equipment/materials,x-ray licence fees,disposal of clinical waste,etc.
I'm the first to empathise with anyone on low incomes who have to use our services, but you'd be genuinely surprised how little of the money you pay finds its way into our final wage.

I'm probably biased but I believe an hour of my time is more valuable than some of the people quoted and i know for a fact i charge less.I'm absolutely flabergasted that people never complain about fees outside of dentistry.

rant over:)

btkm8unsl0w5r4

This thread is about medical card dental work which is free to medical card holders. Free is pretty good value for these people who cant afford medical treatment. Lets leave the cost of private dental work for another thread

day dreamer

Yes, the private fees of dentists is another can of worms but for this thread anyway we should focus on how the govenrment has drastically restricted the PRSI and med card scheme. This is how the majority of patients access dental care and how most dentists make a living.

Medical card holders who are tax payers do pay for the medical card scheme and even those who dont pay tax contribute to it through VAT and other taxes. Not to mention the cutbacks to other benefits.

The scheme was great value for the government when you consider the ammount of treatment the was carried out and the fee paid to the dentist was much lower than private or even the PRSI fee. Patients had their basic dental needs treated and the scheme promoted dental health