Fringe Ireland players

liam12989

im wondering how did the guys like ross reddan mcfadden etc played at weekend?
according to reports ross give wilkinson a torrid time..why isnt he in contention for irish no3 jersey

outwest

it was more wright that was destroying the scrum, redden should be 4 th choice now, had a awful game. murpgh and boos should really be ahead of him. macfadden didnt do much v conancht.

hagen is keeping is head down and doing the bussiness, cmae off the bench and him and croinin kept the scrum solid, hagen is in with a chance of going on tour in the summer.

Zzippy

liam12989 wrote: »

im wondering how did the guys like ross reddan mcfadden etc played at weekend?
according to reports ross give wilkinson a torrid time..why isnt he in contention for irish no3 jersey

Ross did ok, but Wright really stole the show, best Leinster player on the pitch IMO. Reddan completely outplayed by his opposite number, didn't see much of McFadden. Carr was outstanding and should be in an Irish squad soon.

LeeroyJones

Zzippy wrote: »

Ross did ok, but Wright really stole the show, best Leinster player on the pitch IMO. Reddan completely outplayed by his opposite number, didn't see much of McFadden. Carr was outstanding and should be in an Irish squad soon.

Out of curiosity, who would you have him in an Irish squad for? For me he would definitely get into a large training panel but I still think he has plenty to do to get by Bowe, Fitz, Earls and Trimble for the wing slots. Would people rate Carr higher than Johne Murphy?

PhatPiggins

I know he didn't play a full game and is hardly as much of a fringe player as the above but I thought Cronin was dynamite when he came on. He's like a young John Smith.

LeeroyJones

LeeroyJones wrote: »

Out of curiosity, who would you have him in an Irish squad for? For me he would definitely get into a large training panel but I still think he has plenty to do to get by Bowe, Fitz, Earls and Trimble for the wing slots. Would people rate Carr higher than Johne Murphy?

X600

I think Carr would be definitely competing for Trimble's place in the squad, Bowe is unmoveable, and Earls has been great.

I don't see any problem whatsoever with us having too many players for each position.
Let Kidney worry about picking the team to win each game.

PhatPiggins

PhatPiggins wrote: »

I know he didn't play a full game and is hardly as much of a fringe player as the above but I thought Cronin was dynamite when he came on. He's like a young John Smith.

Agree, I really think Cronin can be the absolute business.

He's not renowned for his Lineout Throwing though, which is a considerable problem.

If/When he nails this, I reckon he could explode onto the Irish scene

LeeroyJones

Deleted User wrote: »

X600

I think Carr would be definitely competing for Trimble's place in the squad, Bowe is unmoveable, and Earls has been great.

I don't see any problem whatsoever with us having too many players for each position.
Let Kidney worry about picking the team to win each game.

Oh certainly, its fantastic that we have such great strength in depth in this department.

I wouldn't be as convinced that Carr is that much better than Murphy. It will be interesting to see Murphy at Munster next year. However for me, Trimble is far ahead of both Carr and Murphy. He's proven it on the top stage.

Zzippy

LeeroyJones wrote: »

Out of curiosity, who would you have him in an Irish squad for? For me he would definitely get into a large training panel but I still think he has plenty to do to get by Bowe, Fitz, Earls and Trimble for the wing slots. Would people rate Carr higher than Johne Murphy?

I'd have him at least on a par with Trimble. Earls has done really well this year, and his positioning has been excellent, but Carr is a better broken field player and I'd guess he's faster too. Carr reminds me very much of a young Denis Hickie, he's got the speed and the footwork to match, he will be some player in a year or two. He's definitely way ahead of J. Murphy, as well as some of the other players who were in the extended squad recently, such as Dowling and Hurley. 7 league tries when you're playing for the bottom team in the league says a lot.

Deleted User wrote: »

Agree, I really think Cronin can be the absolute business.

He's not renowned for his Lineout Throwing though, which is a considerable problem.

If/When he nails this, I reckon he could explode onto the Irish scene

You must not have watched too many Connacht games this year, our scrum might go backwards sometimes but our lineout has been solid as a rock. Throwing is certainly not a weakness of Cronin's.

myflipflops

Deleted User wrote: »

He's not renowned for his Lineout Throwing though,

Either was Keith Wood in fairness.

To be honest, I never understood why other pack players can't try and learn to throw in to the lineout if the hooker is struggling or is a poor thrower generally (not accusng Cronin of this, haven't seen him enough in the flesh to judge).

LeeroyJones

Zzippy wrote: »

I'd have him at least on a par with Trimble. Earls has done really well this year, and his positioning has been excellent, but Carr is a better broken field player and I'd guess he's faster too. Carr reminds me very much of a young Denis Hickie, he's got the speed and the footwork to match, he will be some player in a year or two. He's definitely way ahead of J. Murphy, as well as some of the other players who were in the extended squad recently, such as Dowling and Hurley. 7 league tries when you're playing for the bottom team in the league says a lot.

Personally I wouldn't be convinced by his defence, his attack is great though. Comparing him with Denis Hickie could be going a bit far in my opinion. I could draw parallels with their pace but Carr has a long way to go to match Hickies defence.
However, whatever about Murphy, I do agree he is well ahead of Dowling and Hurley.

myflipflops

myflipflops wrote: »

Either was Keith Wood in fairness.

Very true, and Cronin plays like he's spent years watching Wood, and figures he can do it just as well.

His pace, and ability in the loose are fantastic.

Really want to see himself and Hagan kept together at Connacht and start to hit the level they're both capable of.

Zzippy

Zzippy wrote: »

You must not have watched too many Connacht games this year, our scrum might go backwards sometimes but our lineout has been solid as a rock. Throwing is certainly not a weakness of Cronin's.

I will certainly admit to not getting to see many, but cant take too much of the blame, if Setanta showed Connacht games every week, I'd know you inside out.

Connacht rugby is going to get seriously exciting in the next 4/5 years, players coming through in the provinces will "pull a Keatley", and demand game time by moving to Connacht.

Hope that we can have 4 seriously top level teams together in a couple of years.

siltirocker

Deleted User wrote: »

Agree, I really think Cronin can be the absolute business.

He's not renowned for his Lineout Throwing though, which is a considerable problem.

If/When he nails this, I reckon he could explode onto the Irish scene

Eh? Im going to have to disagree, his line outs were what got him into the Connacht starting 15 initially. His loose play really just came to the front at the end of last season and his scrummaging early this year. Sure Leicester & Northampton are meant to be after Flavin which i think speaks well for Cronin.

Last weekend time is the only time i can recall him being at fault in the line-out. edit*One was stole in Thomond this year and he threw a crooked one against Opsreys at the start of the season.

siltirocker

While im all for Carr (27 of Connachts 39 tries so far in his first two seasons) & Cronin (well, what can't be said), i really think in the immediate future Fergus McFadden has it all except an easy veteran to oust from his provincal position.

What should we do with McFadden?

Honestly, what would people like to see?

He's under utilised at Leinster, but, he has learnt his trade there, and competing with the best for your position has got to be good for you.

I also know that there is no way Leinster will let him go anywhere, as he covers so much when there is International games, injuries etc, especially as his place kicking is so good.

Are small loan opportunities a waste of time?

Jennings went down under during his ban, but could McFadden benefit from something similar? Some first team action?

sock puppet

Deleted User wrote: »

What should we do with McFadden?

Honestly, what would people like to see?

He's under utilised at Leinster, but, he has learnt his trade there, and competing with the best for your position has got to be good for you.

I also know that there is no way Leinster will let him go anywhere, as he covers so much when there is International games, injuries etc, especially as his place kicking is so good.

Are small loan opportunities a waste of time?

Jennings went down under during his ban, but could McFadden benefit from something similar? Some first team action?

A season or two ago going somewhere else would probably have been best for him, but at this stage with BOD and Darcy getting older he's probably better off staying put.

Goodluck2me

LeeroyJones wrote: »

Personally I wouldn't be convinced by his defence, his attack is great though. Comparing him with Denis Hickie could be going a bit far in my opinion. I could draw parallels with their pace but Carr has a long way to go to match Hickies defence.
However, whatever about Murphy, I do agree he is well ahead of Dowling and Hurley.

Hickie wouldn't have been well known for his defence in the early days of his career either, I remember him having a shocked against SA I believe where he was pilloried afterwards.

McFadden is a super player too, probably a better 12 than 13, similar footwork to Carr with a bit more cutting edge than D'Arcy, obviously without the experience.

profitius

Goodluck2me wrote: »

Hickie wouldn't have been well known for his defence in the early days of his career either, I remember him having a shocked against SA I believe where he was pilloried afterwards.

McFadden is a super player too, probably a better 12 than 13, similar footwork to Carr with a bit more cutting edge than D'Arcy, obviously without the experience.

He conceded 4 tries that day and was dropped from the Irish squad until he sorted out his defence.

Zzippy

LeeroyJones wrote: »

Personally I wouldn't be convinced by his defence, his attack is great though. Comparing him with Denis Hickie could be going a bit far in my opinion. I could draw parallels with their pace but Carr has a long way to go to match Hickies defence.
However, whatever about Murphy, I do agree he is well ahead of Dowling and Hurley.

I wasn't in the slightest trying to put him on a par with Hickie (a legend IMO), just saying he reminded me of him in terms of his pace and footwork. I do think he has the potential to be as good as Denis was, however. 27 tries in 2 seasons for the bottom team in the ML, considering some of the hammerings we've had in that time, is nothing to be sneezed at.

danthefan

You can train a guy to defend, it would be much harder (impossible?) to train what Carr has going forward.

thomond2006

As a Munster fan, I'd take McFadden at 12 instead of a certain England NZ mercenary. He's definitely ready for a HEC starting role, he won't get it at Leinster for awhile with BOD and D'Arcy around for 2-3 years.

Carr must get into the Ireland squad, God helps us if the likes of Dowling (as much as I admire him) are ahead of him. He's scored 7 tries in the worst attacking team in the ML ffs.

danthefan

thomond2006 wrote: »

As a Munster fan, I'd take McFadden at 12 instead of a certain England NZ mercenary. He's definitely ready for a HEC starting role, he won't get it at Leinster for awhile with BOD and D'Arcy around for 2-3 years.

I think you'll find BOD will miss more and more games in the coming seasons. He has a chance at a start against Munster now (and would have last season too if he didn't get injured), a game which will be of as high quality as many HEC group stage games.

funky penguin

Deleted User wrote: »

What should we do with McFadden?

Make him our No. 1 place kicker. :pac:

thomond2006

funky penguin wrote: »

Make him our No. 1 place kicker. :pac:

Ooh, controversy. :cool:

Has McFadden ever played 10 at Leinster A, club, schools etc?

I think another question must be,

What do we do with Tommy Bowe??

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1069587

irishbucsfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

Ooh, controversy. :cool:

Has McFadden ever played 10 at Leinster A, club, schools etc?

Don't think McFadden will ever be considered as a 10 at Leinster. Sexton is one of the best young 10s in the world and behind him there's Berne who has done very well there at times this season, and then Nacewa could fill in at 10 if there was an emergency

siltirocker

thomond2006 wrote: »

Ooh, controversy. :cool:

Has McFadden ever played 10 at Leinster A, club, schools etc?

No, but he took the place kicks (at one point) AHEAD of Fionn Carr at Ireland Schools for a bit, Keatley at UCD/Ireland A, Sexton for Leinster A/Ireland A and Manning at varsity (GRANTED - that changed after a while for Keatley & Sexton). But none the less impressive and speaks for itself in my opinion.

irishbucsfan

siltirocker wrote: »

No, but he took the place kicks (at one point) AHEAD of Fionn Carr at Ireland Schools for a bit, Keatley at UCD/Ireland A, Sexton for Leinster A/Ireland A and Manning at varsity (GRANTED - that changed after a while for Keatley & Sexton). But none the less impressive and speaks for itself in my opinion.

Are you sure about Sexton? I remember when they played together for Ireland A during the Churchill Cup and Sexton was kicking (awfully) and McFadden wasn't given the tee. McFadden did kick after Sexton was taken off.

I remember watching those games and thinking Sexton would never be a good enough kicker to play serious rugby... then he shut me up! That's why I'll never doubt the kid again.

siltirocker

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Are you sure about Sexton? I remember when they played together for Ireland A during the Churchill Cup and Sexton was kicking (awfully) and McFadden wasn't given the tee. McFadden did kick after Sexton was taken off.

I remember watching those games and thinking Sexton would never be a good enough kicker to play serious rugby... then he shut me up! That's why I'll never doubt the kid again.

Like i said "(GRANTED - that changed with Keatley & Sexton)". Sexton kicked most of the games they played together at 'A' level but initially McFadden did. I think they played 7 maybe 8 together, McFadden with the tee in the first on or two.

bamboozle

LeeroyJones wrote: »

Oh certainly, its fantastic that we have such great strength in depth in this department.

I wouldn't be as convinced that Carr is that much better than Murphy. It will be interesting to see Murphy at Munster next year. However for me, Trimble is far ahead of both Carr and Murphy. He's proven it on the top stage.

Carr is streets ahead of murphy, to be honest i dont see murphy as more than a squad player for Munster.
Did fluty sign for Munster in the end?

thomond2006

bamboozle wrote: »

Carr is streets ahead of murphy, to be honest i dont see murphy as more than a squad player for Munster.
Did fluty sign for Munster in the end?

No.

treacy52

I understand that every coach has to impose some rotation throughout the season for his better players but it was a real shame that Keatley didn't get a chance to start the other night.

In fairness it's proven to be hard enough to get noticed for higher level duty playing with Connacht in the last few seasons as it is, so to be left out of a big, televised interpro seemed a bit odd.

Goodluck2me

profitius wrote: »

He conceded 4 tries that day and was dropped from the Irish squad until he sorted out his defence.

Yes but he was in the squad before that,, was the point I was making.

thehighground

bamboozle wrote: »

Carr is streets ahead of murphy, to be honest i dont see murphy as more than a squad player for Munster.

Johne Murphy is playing at a higher level than Carr (Heineken Cup & reaching Premiership Finals). He was Leicester's Top Try scorer last season with 11 (against Saints, Wasps, Quins, Treviso last year). I don't know how you can decide that Carr is streets ahead of Murphy when you take that into consideration.

twinytwo

thomond2006 wrote: »

No.

thank god

bamboozle

thehighground wrote: »

Johne Murphy is playing at a higher level than Carr (Heineken Cup & reaching Premiership Finals). He was Leicester's Top Try scorer last season with 11 (against Saints, Wasps, Quins, Treviso last year). I don't know how you can decide that Carr is streets ahead of Murphy when you take that into consideration.

I've seen enough of them over the last few years to make my opinion.

Murphy scored 4 or 5 try's against Treviso and only gets his game for Leicester when other players are injured and is behind Geordan, Tuigali and Hamilton in first team selection. As far as i remember Murphy didnt play in the HC final. Plus a winger for Leicester gets a lot more opportunities than a winger at Connacht!

andrewdcs

I think Johne will line out for Munster more than that tbh, watching him in GP highlights he's got some class, you can't play consistently at Leicester without it.
Great for Ireland to take him back into the fold but I think Carr should get out of Ireland and perversely go to the GP/Top 14 to "do a Johne Murphy" if you will.
Connacht need to make it to at least the challenge semi, can't see them in the mix for Magners next year and its players getting to these crunch games the coaches watch the most.

hopefully this summers tour they'll both have tickets for the plane.

irishbucsfan

thehighground wrote: »

Johne Murphy is playing at a higher level than Carr (Heineken Cup & reaching Premiership Finals). He was Leicester's Top Try scorer last season with 11 (against Saints, Wasps, Quins, Treviso last year). I don't know how you can decide that Carr is streets ahead of Murphy when you take that into consideration.

Johne Murphy has been playing for (arguably) the top team in England for the past few years and has scored a good few tries. This year he's scored 4 tries in 17 games. He's a solid player. He doesn't start for Leicester when the rest of the team is fit.

Fionn Carr has been playing for the worst team in the Magners League for the past few years, and yet he has still managed to score 14 tries in 17 games for Connacht this year (skysports.com), which would be incredible for any player. He used to be a worry in defense and under the high ball but he's worked on those things and now it looks to me like there's no concern there at all. His kicking game is also superb. He's one of the most important players in the Connacht team.

I went to Newbridge, so I'm not really biased either way, but I can't really see any argument to say that Johne is a better player than Fionn. Murphy is an excellent squad member with a great work ethic, but Carr has incredible natural talent and in the last few years he's rounded himself out into a fantastic player. You can't teach what Fionn Carr has.

andrewdcs

On Carr, the new old interpretation of the tackle will help players like him who want to avoid contact and break, tries he scored against Leinster (while imho one was wildly offside at a ruck) were very very well taken. Eye catchingly so.

for the summer tour whats the max Kidney likes to take?

siltirocker

andrewdcs wrote: »

On Carr, the new old interpretation of the tackle will help players like him who want to avoid contact and break, tries he scored against Leinster (while imho one was wildly offside at a ruck) were very very well taken. Eye catchingly so.

for the summer tour whats the max Kidney likes to take?

He held on to the ball not the man in making the tackle, stayed on his feet and took the ball before the player's both knees dropped. Perfectly legit regardless of his positioning IMO.

[Jackass]

Carr is an international standard player and if he had stuck around a season or two longer at Leinster, he'd probably be in the first team now, and Isa wouldn't have been signed.

Even if he came into the current Leinster set-up, with the current injuries, Carr would be starting against Munster.

He has an outstanding try scoring record, playing for the bottom team in the league, he was joint top try scorer, and for such a lowly ranked team, he scores a massive amount of tries.

He is kind of in a Tommy Bowe mould at the moment...superb player, not getting the recognition as he is playing for a poor team (no disrespect intended).

If he moves to Leinster or Munster, he'd be looking good at breaking into the Irish team...at present he's good enough to displace Kearney. I don't think Earls would have got the breaks he did either if Carr was showing his Connacht class in a Leinster jersey.

Potential to be a regular in the Irish first 15. Would love to see him (and Keatley) come back to Leinster...

Having said that, his not being there has paved the way for Conway to break in to the Leinster 22 this season, and at only 18, is the most promising player I've seen at that age since Fitzgerald, so he could become a Lion too....you never know!

All in all though, Ireland have ridiculos depth in the back 3.

danthefan

On what basis is Carr an international standard player? He's never played any rugby of remotely international standard. He's great going forward but there are still issues with his defence.

irishbucsfan

danthefan wrote: »

On what basis is Carr an international standard player? He's never played any rugby of remotely international standard. He's great going forward but there are still issues with his defence.

He's good enough to play international rugby. There isn't much of an issue with his defense. He's also improved under the high ball (no doubt learning from Duffy).

Fionn Carr is at the same standard as Keith Earls, who is an international rugby player, therefore he's an international standard rugby player.

LeeroyJones

I seem to be getting the feeling that some posters think Carr is fresh off the under-20s. He's 24 and for a winger that should mean his potential as a player should be pretty much fulfilled by now. Most of our other wingers are roughly the same age, if not younger. His strike rate is fantastic and conveys a tremendous attacking ability, particularly in broken play but for international rugby I would have serious reservations regards defence and high-ball.

Also I would like to make the point that every top player has a good try-scoring rate, but not everyone with a good try-scoring is a top player! I'm not saying Carr isnt a good player, rather it takes more than just a try-scoring rate to judge a players ability.

For me, Carr and Murphy are neck and neck for challenging Bowe, Fitz, Earls and Trimble. If any of these get injured I think it is down to these 2 for the Ireland squad, Andrew Conway might have something to say about that though depending on his development.

thehighground

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He's good enough to play international rugby. There isn't much of an issue with his defense. He's also improved under the high ball (no doubt learning from Duffy).

Fionn Carr is at the same standard as Keith Earls, who is an international rugby player, therefore he's an international standard rugby player.

In which position is Carr the same standard as Earls? I don't think its at centre which is why Carr is going to find it difficult to get into the international set up because we seem to have a lot of wingers/full backs there already, but not so many centres.

Not a comment to you irishbucsfan, but if it can be claimed that Carr is playing in a poor team, it can also be claimed that most teams don't send their big guns to Galway. It would also be fair to say that most teams will raise their game when they encounter the Leicesters, Munster & Leinsters of this world, which makes it a bit harder for the Murphys & Earls of this world. I rememer Roy Keane saying of his time in Man Utd. that if the opposition played week-in, week-out like they played against Utd. they would all be world beaters. He said every game he played in for United was like a cup final.

outwest

the problem here, we dont know if he is international standard because he hasnt got the chance too prove if he is, that the problem ireland have, howe many new caps have been handed out since kidney took charge, very few, im not counting the summer as lions player were gone.

ireland are a team were many players will get over 50 caps because once there in there in, i think carr should get a cap in the summer, if he continues to play the way he does he deserves too,

croinin too, he has the potential to be better the nbest and fla, he gets a chance in the green jersey i would put money on him keeping it, exellent in loose and a thrower of the ball, good in the scrum.

ireland need to give player caps, after the world cup we prob will have 5-6 player retireing from the irish team, maybe more, its an ageing team,

danthefan

Carr is unproven compared to Earls.

I think he's putting in similar enough performances to those Earls was putting in at the start of last season in the ML, but Earls is ahead at the moment clearly.

siltirocker

[Jackass] wrote: »

Carr is an international standard player and if he had stuck around a season or two longer at Leinster, he'd probably be in the first team now, and Isa wouldn't have been signed.

Fionn Carr was released from his development contract in April/May 08 by Leinster and not offered a professional one. Same with Flannery, Keatley, Keane, Hagan & Cronin. These players were finished with the idea of professional rugby till Connacht stepped in. Carr was resigned to the fact that Blackrock AIL was going to be his furthest level in rugby until Connacht offered him a contract about two/three weeks after he was released by Leinster. I remember thinking at the time that Leinster letting him go was ridiculous as he was the highest points scorer, try scorer & had the best goal kicking ratio in 2007/08 AIL season.

One thing i keep seeing is questions about his defense and high ball (well i haven't actually seen a 'question' but you catch my drift). I don't know where these are coming from. He has NEVER had a problem under the high ball, it just seems to be a popular thing to say on this forum. His tackling is fine. My one problem with him is his defensive positioning, he sometimes get a little over eager in getting stuck in and has been caught by Biggar, Parks and iHumph out of position badly. (Although these incident were early in the season tbh.)

I really don't think comparing him to Bowe or Earls is justifiable, he's uncapped-they're Lions. Give him a cap or two over the next 6 months or hope Connacht play HC next year otherwise he'll never be comparable to them.

crisco10

siltirocker wrote: »

Fionn Carr was released from his development contract in April/May 08 by Leinster and not offered a professional one. Same with Flannery, Keatley, Keane, Hagan & Cronin. These players were finished with the idea of professional rugby till Connacht stepped in. Carr was resigned to the fact that Blackrock AIL was going to be his furthest level in rugby until Connacht offered him a contract about two/three weeks after he was released by Leinster. I remember thinking at the time that Leinster letting him go was ridiculous as he was the highest points scorer, try scorer & had the best goal kicking ratio in 2007/08 AIL season.

One thing i keep seeing is questions about his defense and high ball (well i haven't actually seen a 'question' but you catch my drift). I don't know where these are coming from. He has NEVER had a problem under the high ball, it just seems to be a popular thing to say on this forum. His tackling is fine. My one problem with him is his defensive positioning, he sometimes get a little over eager in getting stuck in and has been caught by Biggar, Parks and iHumph out of position badly. (Although these incident were early in the season tbh.)

I really don't think comparing him to Bowe or Earls is justifiable, he's uncapped-they're Lions. Give him a cap or two over the next 6 months or hope Connacht play HC next year otherwise he'll never be comparable to them.

I asked the question in another thread but it was just that; a question. purely because I haven't seen much of him playing...

Also, didn't realise he was a decent kicker. It's weird the way at high level Irish rugby you only see the 10 take place kicks. In fact, when was the last time a frontline kicker wasn't the 10? (Mcfadden doesn't really count as a front line kicker, or does he?)

siltirocker

crisco10 wrote: »

I asked the question in another thread but it was just that; a question. purely because I haven't seen much of him playing...

Also, didn't realise he was a decent kicker. It's weird the way at high level Irish rugby you only see the 10 take place kicks. In fact, when was the last time a frontline kicker wasn't the 10? (Mcfadden doesn't really count as a front line kicker, or does he?)

Kiernan?