Your 5/3/1 experiences RE: competition prep?

Parsley

Parsley wrote: »

I would've but between the singles and now i've been doing gvt and bodybuilding ****e. back to PLing now though, gonna tear into 5/3/1! hopefully some more competing later in the year.

Hanley wrote: »

Quick tip for ya - two guys this weekend said 5/3/1 didn't suit them well at all for comp prep. Kevpants and Brutusthebarber. Just something to consider.

cardio,shoot me wrote: »

5/3/1 can work if you throw in some heavy work afterwards.

Parsley wrote: »

Really? Cheers for that... well it'll still be a damn sight better than feckin gvt! Might have a think about how to modify it coming up to comp time or something.

Hanley wrote: »

Tell ya what, start a thread on it. I'm sure the lads will all contribute with their experiences. I've been thru 5 cycles and don't rate it. I either went about it the wrong way, or it's just not for me.

You get the idea. How've you found 5/3/1 to be for comp prepping? What did you do yourself to prep, i.e. how did you taper, test openers etc and fit it in with 5/3/1? And any other comments...

cardio,shoot me

going well for squat and deadlift. on bench, although my strength has gone up, the lack of experience under the bar means my confidence at maxes isnt that great

Kev M

I've never competed, but in 4 cycles of it I saw decent returns on Squat and Deadlift, and next to nothing on bench...
Don't be put off by the little negativity it's suddenly getting now...

Hanley

Kev M wrote: »

I've never competed, but in 4 cycles of it I saw decent returns on Squat and Deadlift, and next to nothing on bench...
Don't be put off by the little negativity it's suddenly getting now...

The negativity's coming about now because people are just coming off of it onto competitions. There's no peaking phase in 5/3/1, it's not designed to have you ready for a comp at all. Sure, your reps might increase - Kevs squat went from 165 x4 to 180 x5 or something like that, but his max only went up 10kg.

Brutus is the same, saw nothing on his bench, used smolov for his squat and DL and hit decent PR's in 2/3 months there.

I went backwards pretty much the entire time on it - there's nowhere near enough volume for the core lifts.

I know your bench has gone well, but how's your max squat come on on it? Anyone who competed over the weekend will agree with me when I say taking competitions attempts is a whole different world to testing maxes in the gym every now and again. It's my opinion that 5/3/1 definitely does not prepare you for that. I don't think it was ever designed to either.

cardio,shoot me

Hanley wrote: »

The negativity's coming about now because people are just coming off of it onto competitions. There's no peaking phase in 5/3/1, it's not designed to have you ready for a comp at all. Sure, your reps might increase - Kevs squat went from 165 x4 to 180 x5 or something like that, but his max only went up 10kg.

Brutus is the same, saw nothing on his bench, used smolov for his squat and DL and hit decent PR's in 2/3 months there.

I went backwards pretty much the entire time on it - there's nowhere near enough volume for the core lifts.

I know your bench has gone well, but how's your max squat come on on it? Anyone who competed over the weekend will agree with me when I say taking competitions attempts is a whole different world to testing maxes in the gym every now and again. It's my opinion that 5/3/1 definitely does not prepare you for that. I don't think it was ever designed to either.

im not arguing with you here at all, but what would you suggest doing? doing 5/3/1 and then when your however many weeks out from a competition doing smolov or something?

Inspector Coptoor

I only competed in one competition but i found the 5/3/1 to be good.

However, it depends on how many cycles of it you have done.

I have done 9 cycles of it now and my working maxes (90%) on all three lifts are actually more than what were my 100% (1RMs) for my very first cycle.

The thing about the 5/3/1 is that its designed to be a long term, life long way of training.
If people only do it for a few cycles, they are not going to see it as being beneficial.

Also, regarding the volume point, its a fair criticism but there are ways around it.
stick in the boring but big. do 5 sets of 10 with 60% of your max after your work sets and add 2.5kg each cycle.
If your 1rm squat is 200kg and you're doing 5 x 10 with 120kg for BBB, then after 12 cycles that 5 x 10 with 120kg has gone up to 5 x 10 with 150kg.

Also, from asking Wendler about it myself, the 5/3/1 IS designed for running into a comp. you have a a max effort session 2 weeks from a meet and a week deload running into the meet.

I'll probably be called on the "max effort" session two weeks out here, but the point again is that if you have been doing the 5/3/1 for long enough, it really will be a max effort session

Kev M

Hanley wrote: »

The negativity's coming about now because people are just coming off of it onto competitions. There's no peaking phase in 5/3/1, it's not designed to have you ready for a comp at all. Sure, your reps might increase - Kevs squat went from 165 x4 to 180 x5 or something like that, but his max only went up 10kg. But did 531 not take him to a 200+ squat in the first place? Maybe now is just time for a change as the max weight is getting too heavy.

Brutus is the same, saw nothing on his bench, used smolov for his squat and DL and hit decent PR's in 2/3 months there.

I went backwards pretty much the entire time on it - there's nowhere near enough volume for the core lifts.

I know your bench has gone well nah it's still crap, but how's your max squat come on on it? 10kgs Anyone who competed over the weekend will agree with me when I say taking competitions attempts is a whole different world to testing maxes in the gym every now and again. It's my opinion that 5/3/1 definitely does not prepare you for that. I don't think it was ever designed to either. I'm definitely not in a place to be disagreeing here, so i will now retreat to the safety of my homemade bodybuilding program

Okay so I think 531 is a good program to take someone who isn't near their full strength capacity up to a decent level. Then comes a point where the 1rm weight just gets too heavy to be significantly influenced by lesser weight reps, because the body just can't or isn't conditioned to tolerate how heavy the supposed 1rm has suddenly become.
The OP should be able to make good progress on it!

Parsley

I'm gonna be doing it with kevpants' extra squat day, i think. Might leave it for a while and bring it in after a couple cycles but i think my squat needs at least 2x a week regularity to progress decently...

brutusthebarber

Gonna throw my two cents in here.

531 is grand for hitting rep PRs at lighter weights but the time spent under the bar is considerably less than is required for powerlifting IMO.

My squat was going nowhere with it, looking at the numbers I had going into the single lifts my max squat would have been somewhere around 120. Squatting once a week just doesn't cut the mustard for me. Smolov rescued me here.

I got 0kg out of 531 for my bench. When I started adding in additional volume myself it progressed. 531 will not help your bench. How many of us lifting at the nationals, using 531, actually hit all their attempts in the bench?? I hit one ffs and it was 2.5 kg lighter than at the single lifts!!!

The only lift that went up for me is the military press and I'll stick with 531 for that until it stalls.

531 will build a decent base but will not prep you for a comp. I'd recommend Smolov. Also the Coan/Phillipi program worked for my deadlift. Might be something to consider.

brianthebard

Parsley wrote: »

I'm gonna be doing it with kevpants' extra squat day, i think. Might leave it for a while and bring it in after a couple cycles but i think my squat needs at least 2x a week regularity to progress decently...

You can squat on deadlift day, there's couple of ways you could set it up to get that 2x a week effect. Probably best to run it as is for the first 2 or 3 cycles though as you say.

J-Fit

Liam Henners257 wrote: »

Also, from asking Wendler about it myself, the 5/3/1 IS designed for running into a comp. you have a a max effort session 2 weeks from a meet and a week deload running into the meet.

I'll probably be called on the "max effort" session two weeks out here, but the point again is that if you have been doing the 5/3/1 for long enough, it really will be a max effort session

I love 531 but I didn't find that it prepared me quite well enough for competition. It is correct that you have a max week 2 weeks out but if you think about it, by the time you hit the platform, it's almost 3 weeks since you maxed out on your squat but only two weeks for the deadlift. This is exactly how it felt for me going into this weekend and that is exactly how it turned out. A lowish squat because I felt I was undercooked and an ok deadlift because I had the work done. Even hitting my openers a week out didn't negate this and I felt that the lack of time spent under heavy weights meant I simply wasn't accustomed to maximal loads. My best reps on squat coming into the comp were 180x7 but I only came out with a 190! 215x6 on the deadlift and I came out with 250 which was a little more in line. Bench was bench. I'm half thinking of doing 531 from 100% of my max now rather than 90%. This way I'll spend more time under heavy weight coupled with the lower rep training that I've sorely been missing.

Magic Eight Ball

I'm not a powerlifter but I did give 5/3/1 ago for nearly two cycles. Wouldn't have anything negative to say about it, just found the lack of volume a little frustrating. I did add alot of assistance exercises & mixed it around a bit.. but then it stopped being 5/3/1.

I'm just a fecker for volume, which is why I'm a whore for 5x5 with most lifts.

G86

I've found this thread pretty interesting, I'm just referring to PB's in the gym but I was thinking about doing 531 for my deadlift along side my normal workouts to try and get it up to double bodyweight.

I know the thread is in relation to comps but a few people seem to be saying that it's not a great program in general for upping your max lift? I had this idea that it was going to increase my DL by about 20kg at least, am I being a tad over-optimistic?! I'm just wondering now if I should be opting for something else.

(I know it's a slightly off topic question sorry!)

Parsley

Maybe adding in a heavy singles week maybe once every second cycle might work? Sort of westside ME day type sessions? I'll give it a shot anyway.

Which assisstance programmes have people found most effective?

Hanley

Kev M, I'll let Kevpants speak for himself but I'm pretty sure he'll say that just squatting in the first place got him there. He made ridiculous improvements on his squat in no time at all once he got started. The prick.

I actually meant to say your deadlift has gotten better on it. You've gone over 200 by now right? (If you say no, I'll insist that you go do it now).

Liam Henners257 wrote: »

I only competed in one competition but i found the 5/3/1 to be good.

However, it depends on how many cycles of it you have done.

I have done 9 cycles of it now and my working maxes (90%) on all three lifts are actually more than what were my 100% (1RMs) for my very first cycle.

The thing about the 5/3/1 is that its designed to be a long term, life long way of training.
If people only do it for a few cycles, they are not going to see it as being beneficial.

Also, regarding the volume point, its a fair criticism but there are ways around it.
stick in the boring but big. do 5 sets of 10 with 60% of your max after your work sets and add 2.5kg each cycle.
If your 1rm squat is 200kg and you're doing 5 x 10 with 120kg for BBB, then after 12 cycles that 5 x 10 with 120kg has gone up to 5 x 10 with 150kg.

Also, from asking Wendler about it myself, the 5/3/1 IS designed for running into a comp. you have a a max effort session 2 weeks from a meet and a week deload running into the meet.

I'll probably be called on the "max effort" session two weeks out here, but the point again is that if you have been doing the 5/3/1 for long enough, it really will be a max effort session

Kev's done probably 1.5-2x the amount of cycles you've done at this stage, I'm dying for him to get in here.

How realistic is it to go from squating 120 5x10 to 150 5x10? Like you can throw out numbers about how good it is, but without evidence to back it up, they're just claims to make it look good.

J-Fit wrote: »

I love 531 but I didn't find that it prepared me quite well enough for competition. It is correct that you have a max week 2 weeks out but if you think about it, by the time you hit the platform, it's almost 3 weeks since you maxed out on your squat but only two weeks for the deadlift. This is exactly how it felt for me going into this weekend and that is exactly how it turned out. A lowish squat because I felt I was undercooked and an ok deadlift because I had the work done. Even hitting my openers a week out didn't negate this and I felt that the lack of time spent under heavy weights meant I simply wasn't accustomed to maximal loads. My best reps on squat coming into the comp were 180x7 but I only came out with a 190! 215x6 on the deadlift and I came out with 250 which was a little more in line. Bench was bench. I'm half thinking of doing 531 from 100% of my max now rather than 90%. This way I'll spend more time under heavy weight coupled with the lower rep training that I've sorely been missing.

I'm with you on this - 2 90+% sessions aren't adequate to prepare for a comp. You simply can't expect your body to deal with TRUE 90% attempts unless it's hitting them at least semi frequently. And when I say 90% attempts I don't mean 90% of something starting max 3/4 of a year ago, I mean 90% of what you're actually capable of.

G86 wrote: »

I've found this thread pretty interesting, I'm just referring to PB's in the gym but I was thinking about doing 531 for my deadlift along side my normal workouts to try and get it up to double bodyweight.

I know the thread is in relation to comps but a few people seem to be saying that it's not a great program in general for upping your max lift? I had this idea that it was going to increase my DL by about 20kg at least, am I being a tad over-optimistic?! I'm just wondering now if I should be opting for something else.

(I know it's a slightly off topic question sorry!)

Competition attempts are a whole different world to gym lifts, this is the one thing that people who haven't competed at least a few times don't realise. Working up to a heavy single when you feel good in the gym isn't a big deal. Having to warm up in busy envoirnment, fight for time and hit 3 max/near max lifts in a row is.

Having to settle down, rest up and do it again a few hours later is a killer. And having to do it a third time is absolute murder. It requires a whole different level of conditioning, one that you just can't obtain if you're not used to dealing with near max weights frequently enough.

That's just my opinion, but it does seem to be backed by a few people here. Like you've guys squatting 160ish saying it, and guys squatting over 200 saying it so it's not just the absolute upper end guys that aren't seeing success off it.

kevpants

From my log:

Tuesday 31/03/09 Cycle 3 wave 2

Squat

80% 145 x 3
85% 152.5 x 3
90% 162.5 x 7

Really happy with 162.5 x 7. Reckon I'd be able for a set of 10 with that weight if I didn't ahve 2 work sets prior to it and was just nice and warm. Really enjoying the squatting at the moment. Form just feels perfect every time, not losing it forward, just feels like instinct.

Almost exactly one year later...

8/3/10 Squat C12w3

75% 150 x 5
85% 170 x 3
95% 190 x 5 Big PR

160kg - 9 triples.

Great 5/3/1 success story BUT my max only went from 215kg to 225kg.

Basically the increase in "capability" (don't want to say strength) at hitting rep PR's is not linear with the increase in top end "capability".

Both are types of strong but only one matters in powerlifting.

5/3/1 is a strength program, mainly it's focussed at people who don't know how to structure a workout, high school football coaches etc. It isn't ideal for powerlifters but that isn't to rubbish it.

The program that's ideal is the one you'll be on in 10 years time after trying out loads of things and becoming a "student of the sport" to quote Mike Tuscherer.

5/3/1 didn't deserve the massive cultish following it got but it doesn't deserve to be rubbished. My max did go up after all. I think the swing away from anything ME by anyone who calls themselves a strength coach is just another fad.

kevpants

I actually have lots of musings on this subject but not too much time at the moment.

I'm trying to educate myself on block periodization at the moment and it seems like 5/3/1 is basically one very effective block in its own right. The difference being that if it was a block you'd switch from it to a volume or a max effort block to reap the dividends of the 5/3/1 accumulation.

I could be off in my language there but hope it makes sense.

To summarize, weights be heavy.

Sangre

So you're ditching the 5/3/1 from now Kev?

Currently on my 4th cycle of 5/3/1. I'm gaining at the moment and I don't intend on competing any time soon so I'm going to keep it up. The structure suits me. I'm not really at the level too worry about this stuff like this but its interesting to read. I do want to maximise my potential with the best programme.

kevpants

Sangre wrote: »

So you're ditching the 5/3/1 from now Kev?

Currently on my 4th cycle of 5/3/1. I'm gaining at the moment and I don't intend on competing any time soon so I'm going to keep it up. The structure suits me. I'm not really at the level too worry about this stuff like this but its interesting to read. I do want to maximise my potential with the best programme.

Not ditching. Incorporating

Spending a month lo-carbing my fat off and starting again. Won't be doing a "brand" program. Probably be block based over 16 week cycles with 5/3/1 style stuff in there.

J-Fit

I'm going to tinker with the % of 5/3/1 now in an effort to squeeze in more ME work. I love the wave style loading patterns and the feeling you get when you hit a PR so I don't want to stray. Spreadsheets keep my feet on the ground because otherwise I keep loading and loading until I kick the sh1t out of my CNS and end up needing weeks off to recover. Ironic in that I constantly advise others to avoid this scenario but there you go, I love to lift!

Parsley

Hanley and Kev are both making lots of sense to me here. One of the things I didn't like was the lack of volume/consistency/ actually training like a powerlifter. I liked the constant PRs and seeing people make progress though. I didn't jump on the bandwagon that came along here a few months back cos I wanted to see how ye lads got on with it.

I was between 5/3/1 and WSFSB III, and I think it was seeing cardio's progress that made me go 5/3/1. I was thinking earlier at the gym though:

-Most improvements seem to be in DL and Press, from what I've seen, in 5/3/1.
-My Squat and Bench seem to respond well to Westside-y stuff more. The past while doing GVT, Smolov and that Russian cycle haven't done much. (smolov probably did the most).

So... if I did WS for bench and squat and 5/3/1 for DL and Press, that would in theory be doing everything right. However actually implementing something like that is where it gets tricky. You need-

-ME Bench
-RE Bench
-ME Squat
-RE Squat
-5/3/1 DL
-5/3/1 Press

I'll need to sort that out.

Anyone have any thoughts, or think it's just plain retarded?

J-Fit

Parsley wrote: »

Hanley and Kev are both making lots of sense to me here. One of the things I didn't like was the lack of volume/consistency/ actually training like a powerlifter. I liked the constant PRs and seeing people make progress though. I didn't jump on the bandwagon that came along here a few months back cos I wanted to see how ye lads got on with it.

I was between 5/3/1 and WSFSB III, and I think it was seeing cardio's progress that made me go 5/3/1. I was thinking earlier at the gym though:

-Most improvements seem to be in DL and Press, from what I've seen, in 5/3/1.
-My Squat and Bench seem to respond well to Westside-y stuff more. The past while doing GVT, Smolov and that Russian cycle haven't done much. (smolov probably did the most).

So... if I did WS for bench and squat and 5/3/1 for DL and Press, that would in theory be doing everything right. However actually implementing something like that is where it gets tricky. You need-

-ME Bench
-RE Bench
-ME Squat
-RE Squat
-5/3/1 DL
-5/3/1 Press

I'll need to sort that out.

Anyone have any thoughts, or think it's just plain retarded?

It's not retarded but it's overcomplicating matters. I genuinley find it hard to believe that the 5/3/1 loading protocol affects different lifts in different ways. It is the same mechanism at play and if your lifts aren't going up at similar rates you have to look at other factors. What's your assistance work like? Is it skewed towards one or more of the lifts? Are you wasting your time with wrist curls after your bench but doing heavy pull-throughs on deadlift day? I wouldn't be so quick to write off 5/3/1. If you bastardise it you'll end up with mixed results so I'd nail my colours to the mast and choose between it, Smolov, Westside etc. Patchy programming will yield patchy results.

cardio,shoot me

im gonna throw an offtopic question out there, whats the general consensus on sheiko, im looking at the beginners one or 37..., i may keep on 5.3.1 for a few things tho but the bench has to change anyway.

Kev M

Hanley wrote: »

Kev M, I'll let Kevpants speak for himself but I'm pretty sure he'll say that just squatting in the first place got him there. He made ridiculous improvements on his squat in no time at all once he got started. The prick.

I actually meant to say your deadlift has gotten better on it. You've gone over 200 by now right? (If you say no, I'll insist that you go do it now).

No, still 192 . Slow and steady wins the race! I'll do 200 when you do 300 .

Kev M

cardio,shoot me wrote: »

im gonna throw an offtopic question out there, whats the general consensus on sheiko, im looking at the beginners one or 37..., i may keep on 5.3.1 for a few things tho but the bench has to change anyway.

Ahh yes, I did Sheiko aswell lol. 37 I think it was.
Squat and deadlift improved on it. It's actually what taught me how to squat because I didn't really squat much before it.
Bench %'s seemed too light, and Hanley said to increase them all by 5-10%, which in the end got me a small bench PR too.
Workouts take forever though and will really beat the crap outta ya.

BossArky

My 2c:

I ran six 531 cycles from July 09 to Jan 2010. The following extract is from this post in my log:

me wrote:

The deadlift and military press went well in cycles 1 to 6. I added 18kg to my deadlift (132kg --> 150kg) and over 5kg to the military press (I say "over 5kg" because I'm not sure exactly what it was before I started. It was between 55kg & a dodgy 60kg). Got it up to 65kg x1 and 63kg x2). I will probably stick with the same assistance on both of those lifts.

Bench and Squat make require a slight rethink on the assistance work. Progress on these lifts was slower. I added 5kg to my bench (90kg --> 95kg) and 10kg to my squat (105kg --> 115kg) over the first 6 cycles. I'm thinking more dips and dumbbell work for the bench. Squat may just require more food.

I gained 3kg bodyweight (77kg to 80kg) which I'll put down to the assistance "boring but big" i.e. 5x10 after top sets.

The structure of 531 is good if you are looking for a medium to long term plan. It dosen't have enough really heavy sets if you are trying to build up to a 1RM. If you're not a powerlifter that dosen't matter. If you are - it does. I would run 531 again if I had no immediate powerlifting aims and wanted a simple training plan.

It takes too long for the bench to get "heavy" as you are going up in 2.5kg every 4 weeks. After six cycles the heaviest 531 1RM was still 1kg under my old 1RM from before the cycle. Squat and Deadlift build up quicker as you're going up by 5kg.

My linked post above contains a spreadsheet where I forecast my 531 plans for cycles 7 to 12 for Jan 2010 to June 2010. I didn't get around to starting that second six month cycle due to moving to Oz. However, I did restart my training using a 3x5 structure.

If I had stuck with 531 that spreadsheet was forecasting a 170kg deadlift in June 2010. Nowadays I'm training 3x5s and will be interested to see if 3x5 gets me to 170kg before or after the 531 prediction. I'll let you know at the end of June which happily corresponds with the 3rd powerlifting comp I'll be attempting, ... so it will be a true 1RM attempt.

Inspector Coptoor

Hanley wrote: »

Kev's done probably 1.5-2x the amount of cycles you've done at this stage, I'm dying for him to get in here.

How realistic is it to go from squating 120 5x10 to 150 5x10? Like you can throw out numbers about how good it is, but without evidence to back it up, they're just claims to make it look good.
.

I dont know how realistic it is. I just laid it out as an example.
maybe it would work, maybe it wouldnt.
fair point.
I was just trying to get around the volume issue.
but again, most people are talking about the lack of near maximal weights and even the 150kg for a 200kg squatter is only 75%. so again, fair point I guess.

Hanley wrote: »

I'm with you on this - 2 90+% sessions aren't adequate to prepare for a comp. You simply can't expect your body to deal with TRUE 90% attempts unless it's hitting them at least semi frequently. And when I say 90% attempts I don't mean 90% of something starting max 3/4 of a year ago, I mean 90% of what you're actually capable of.
.

I see where you;re coming from on this, i really do.
For me though, I;m at the stage now in the 5/3/1 where my max competition squat is 162.5kg from jan, max deadlift is 202.5kg and max bench is 107.5kg

my next 5/3/1 3rd week max efforts will be
155kg in the squat, 190kg in the deadlift and 105kg in the bench.

so these are very close to my true maxes.
that's all I'm saying.
I like the 5/3/1 and I find it works for me so I'll be sticking with it