Taoiseach should be returned without being elected-Martin

Dannyboy83

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0327/1224267175236.html

RETURNING A taoiseach automatically to the next Dáil without having to contest a general election so they could focus on running the country rather than on constituency matters should be considered, Minister for Foreign Affairs Micheál Martin said yesterday.

Stressing that he was outlining some preliminary thoughts on the matter, Mr Martin said he believed it would be beneficial if an outgoing Taoiseach could be returned automatically, like the ceann comhairle, without having to contest a general election.

The benefit would be that the taoiseach would be able to concentrate on important economic and international challenges facing the country without having to divert his or her focus to attend to constituency matters, said Mr Martin.

He said it was clear to him from working with the current Taoiseach, Brian Cowen, and his Fianna Fáil predecessors, Bertie Ahern and Albert Reynolds, that a huge amount of the workload attached to the office is now related to international matters.

“One can say a taoiseach will always get elected in a constituency but one could argue that there are some portfolios that are so critical to the international dimension in modern politics that one or two of them, like the ceann comhairle, should be returned automatically.

“It would, for want of a better word, be like freeing up the chief executive from constituency business,’’ said Mr Martin, adding that the individuals in question would have to go back to contesting future elections in their constituencies as soon as they ceased to be taoiseach.

Mr Martin was speaking at a conference on political reform at University College Cork where he launched the first edition of the online undergraduate journal in political science Government and Politics Review .

Speaking at the conference, Dr Eoin O’Malley of DCU argued that the introduction of Cabinet Ministers from outside electoral politics could lead to the plurality of views and expertise necessary to help make Cabinet much more effective and successful.

Could someone please read this and explain it to me?
Perhaps I am misunderstanding something?
Or has Michael Martin lost his bloody mind?

goat2

i cannot beleive what i just read, they think they can run on and on, are they having us on, we are all waiting for a general election, tomorrow if possible

Sulmac

I think there should be complete separation of cabinet and the Dáil. That is, you can't sit as a TD and be a Minister (they have this in the Netherlands and Norway, I think). Problem is (well, depending on your point of view), that requires a list system (or else a heap of by-elections, we're only due 3 now...) to replace deputies when they get promoted to cabinet.

I wouldn't support the Taoiseach (or any Cabinet member) being automatically re-elected, though.

johngalway

The problem I have with list systems is they allow people like Peter Mandleson into positions of power.

Poly

I think he is saying that being a politician interferes with one’s drinking.

Liam Byrne

Muppet!

If the Taoiseach was seen to do the right thing (chance would be a fine thing!) then his constituents would re-elect him.

I know it was written off as a conspiracy theory, but the more I hear from FF and The Greens lately the more I'm becoming convinced that they want to piss us off enough to want them out.

Robin Wren

sounds like a change from prime minister to president

Sulmac

johngalway wrote: »

The problem I have with list systems is they allow people like Peter Mandleson into positions of power.

Except he was appointed to the House of Lords.

That never happens in our second chamber, though. Oh wait.

migozarad

Whilst retaining a Taoiseach does theoretically minimise disruption to the running of the State as Micheal Martin has stated,the current one hasn't been elected which is undemocratic&patently wrong.In summary,they're a shower of arrogant bastards!

HOPE IS THE WORST OF ALL EVILS,FOR IT PROLONGS THE TORMENT OF MAN..friedrich nietzsche

johngalway

Sulmac wrote: »

Except he was appointed to the House of Lords.

That never happens in our second chamber, though. Oh wait.

Either way, unelected positions of great power attract weasels of the highest order.

Mandleson was just an example of a person never elected by a population to anything.

yoshytoshy

Maybe we should all emigrate and leave cowen to some peace and quiet.

Pride Fighter

Michael is in a marginal constituency himself, perhaps this is a sign he wants the top job? Cause even though he probably wont be booted out there is a possibility he might. Selfish, self serving, Fianna Fail in a nutshell.

DublinWriter

Martin is a arguably company man and a career-sliobhain who's been sent out to the hinterland in order to shore up support in light of a growing back-bench rebellion.

Poly

migozarad wrote: »

HOPE NAMA IS THE WORST OF ALL EVILS,FOR IT PROLONGS THE TORMENT OF MAN..friedrich nietzsche

Was Freidrich a blueshirt?

Biggins

The man has lost the plot.
A taoiseach should be returned automatically! Get the fcuk - over my dead body.

bmaxi

Jesus, when I first read the article I though he meant returning Cowen automatically as Taoiseach. Then again, maybe he did. :eek:

Liam Byrne

bmaxi wrote: »

Jesus, when I first read the article I though he meant returning Cowen automatically as Taoiseach. Then again, maybe he did. :eek:

Cowen can't be Taoiseach next time around - he'll be in opposition.

bmaxi

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Cowen can't be Taoiseach next time around - he'll be in opposition.

Hopefully, not even that.

galwayrush

Thankfully Bertie never thought of this.:eek:

paddyland

All ye who believe Mícheal Martin would make a fine future Taoiseach, THIS is the real Mícheal Martin, company man as someone mentioned - why bother with democracy at all, it only gets in the way of the FF single party state.

Don't be fooled by the calm, unflappable, clean cut presentation. He stands for everything rotten in this regime, just as they all do. These people ACTUALLY believe they have a God-ordained right to run the country, elections or no elections. They have already abandoned holding unwinnable by-elections. Now it's time to do away with unwinnable general elections too.

The rot in FF goes far beyond economic corruption. The rot is deep seated, in their whole understanding of politics and what it means to be in power. Nothing less than the removal of that party out of political life altogether will see this country become anything. They have poisoned the development of this state since it's foundation, and poisoned generations of gullible Irish people. No more. It's time to show them for what they are, what that organisation is really all about. Statements like this from Mícheal Martin make that all too clear.

galwayrush

paddyland wrote: »

All ye who believe Mícheal Martin would make a fine future Taoiseach, THIS is the real Mícheal Martin, company man as someone mentioned - why bother with democracy at all, it only gets in the way of the FF single party state.

Don't be fooled by the calm, unflappable, clean cut presentation. He stands for everything rotten in this regime, just as they all do. These people ACTUALLY believe they have a God-ordained right to run the country, elections or no elections. They have already abandoned holding unwinnable by-elections. Now it's time to do away with unwinnable general elections too.

The rot in FF goes far beyond economic corruption. The rot is deep seated, in their whole understanding of politics and what it means to be in power. Nothing less than the removal of that party out of political life altogether will see this country become anything. They have poisoned the development of this state since it's foundation, and poisoned generations of gullible Irish people. No more. It's time to show them for what they are, what that organisation is really all about. Statements like this from Mícheal Martin make that all too clear.

Fianna Fail is a dangerous cult, sadly with many fanatical brainwashed followers.

Dannyboy83

Welcome to the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea Ireland.

juuge

Michael Martin has to be the greatest waffler of all time. Just listen to his reply, any reply, to a question put to him by the media. He ducks and dives and begins with the classic, ‘may I just make the point ‘ etc or ‘can I firstly say’ etc.......... and goes on waffling. Sad part is though he gets away with it.

Victor

I could accept it in the context of a list system where the first seat won by the taoiseach's party is this seat, but not otherwise.

hallelujajordan

I'm undecided if I agree with Martin or not but I do see merit in the argument.. We have all complained on here about the influence of constituency politics on the national situation and this would certainly remove that influence for one key position, allowing the Taoiseach to focus on national and international issues.

I accept that it automatically gives the outgoing government an advantage of 1 in the next election so how about this . . . The Taoiseach gets automatically re-elected but you change the rules so that the Ceann Comhairle has to come from the largest party in the opposition. He also gets returned automatically so it cancels out the advantage ? Win-Win and we have two men, one running the parliament, the other running the country who don't have to worry about constituency politics during their term of office ?

bmaxi

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I'm undecided if I agree with Martin or not but I do see merit in the argument.. We have all complained on here about the influence of constituency politics on the national situation and this would certainly remove that influence for one key position, allowing the Taoiseach to focus on national and international issues.

I accept that it automatically gives the outgoing government an advantage of 1 in the next election so how about this . . . The Taoiseach gets automatically re-elected but you change the rules so that the Ceann Comhairle has to come from the largest party in the opposition. He also gets returned automatically so it cancels out the advantage ? Win-Win and we have two men, one running the parliament, the other running the country who don't have to worry about constituency politics during their term of office ?

Would this also mean the automatically returned Taoiseach not having a vote in any division? The Ceann Comhairle is, theoretically, neutral.

hallelujajordan

bmaxi wrote: »

Would this also mean the automatically returned Taoiseach not having a vote in any division? The Ceann Comhairle is, theoretically, neutral.

Potentially, As it currently stands the Ceann Comhairle will vote with the government when the numbers are even. You could remove this, have the CC neutral at all times and have the Taoiseach use his vote, only when the numbers are tied. . . would probably make more sense and reinforce the neutrality of the CC position.

Essexboy

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0327/1224267175236.html



Could someone please read this and explain it to me?
Perhaps I am misunderstanding something?
Or has Michael Martin lost his bloody mind?

This used to be the system we had except the man was then called "King"! :rolleyes:

Liam Byrne

Constituency stuff should be dealt with by local politicians; nothing to do with a Taoiseach or even a standard TD.

As it stands, those in power Leinster House have no concept of the real world or what people really think, and that's while (supposedly) doing "constituency work", so removing that can't make matters any worse.

peasant

While the idea of Biffo returning to the Dail automatically without being voted in is reprehensive, the idea that he is going to focus whatever little attention he has on getting re-elected instead of "going forward" is also somewhat scary.

The benefit would be that the taoiseach would be able to concentrate on important economic and international challenges facing the country without having to divert his or her focus to attend to constituency matters, said Mr Martin.

In a way it IS ridiculous that the leader of a country should worry about having to attend funerals back home instead of meeting other world leaders to find a way out of this crisis.

But then again ...in the case of Biffo it's probably much of a muchness anyway

Manach

My understanding from a legal studies course was that the Irish legislative and executive branch are intertwined to an unusally high degree compared to other countries. So perhaps if the Seanad were allowed to have more input/power into handling aspects of the legisilation or to review Staturory Instruments that might allow the TDs to govern more effectively (in theory anyway .... )

StudentDad

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0327/1224267175236.html



Could someone please read this and explain it to me?
Perhaps I am misunderstanding something?
Or has Michael Martin lost his bloody mind?

After reading that article and watching the news over the past number of months I've come to the conclusion that there is a cohort of corrupt idiots in positions of influence in this country, who if given half a chance would turn this country into an ultra-right wing, fascist, catholic state. Ban elections, ban free-speech etc etc.

The sooner FF and their ilk are out of power the better.

SD

bmaxi

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Potentially, As it currently stands the Ceann Comhairle will vote with the government when the numbers are even. You could remove this, have the CC neutral at all times and have the Taoiseach use his vote, only when the numbers are tied. . . would probably make more sense and reinforce the neutrality of the CC position.

Well, if you do that then you are potentially removing a vote from the opposition because the Ceann Comhairle could, theoretically, vote with the opposition.
The Taoiseach, assuming he again holds that office, having produced the framework for the legislation could not. If he did why bring it before the Dáil in the first place?

The Raven.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Could someone please read this and explain it to me?
Perhaps I am misunderstanding something?
Or has Michael Martin lost his bloody mind?

I have read this thread several times and I'm still mystified !

Does this nutcase Martin mean that, even if we have the pleasure of a new party (other than Fianna Fail) in government after the next elections, we are still stuck with Biffo :eek:??

April hasn't even arrived yet and the jokers are out already!



Packs bags - leaving the country as soon as possible - wait!... can't get passport :eek:!!

nesf

The Raven. wrote: »

Does this nutcase Martin mean that, even if we have the pleasure of a new party (other than Fianna Fail) in government after the next elections, we are still stuck with Biffo :eek:??

No, what he's saying is that a Taoiseach is automatically returned as a TD, similar to how a Ceann Comhairle is automatcially returned as a TD and not as Ceann Comhairle.

thebman

Its clearly a joke though. No way anyone could think the public would buy this.

Why the hell should any of them be allowed represent us without being chosen by us to represent them?

The Raven.

nesf wrote: »

No, what he's saying is that a Taoiseach is automatically returned as a TD, similar to how a Ceann Comhairle is automatcially returned as a TD and not as Ceann Comhairle.

Thanks, nesf. At least it's only half daft.

Why should he have the privilege over every other politician, especially after the mess Fianna Fail have made of this country, and considering his low rating in the polls? If he was popular, Micheál Martin might not be suggesting this nonsense. Still, there are enough gullible people who will vote for him.

Victor

What of having a directly elected taoiseach who then needs to get majority support?

ART6

nesf wrote: »

No, what he's saying is that a Taoiseach is automatically returned as a TD, similar to how a Ceann Comhairle is automatcially returned as a TD and not as Ceann Comhairle.

Micheál Martin is reported in the media as a contender for BC's job so perhaps that's why he says what he does. If he gets to take over from Cowen in a FF civil war then his future is secure as a TD even if FF get wiped out at the next election. Quite why someone who's party has been defeated in an election and who has not stood for re-election should be guaranteed a seat simply because he was previously Taoiseach leaves the question of how he could possibly continue to concentrate upon international affairs, or am I missing something here?

thebman

Victor wrote: »

What of having a directly elected taoiseach who then needs to get majority support?

I think considering the position of taoiseach has so much power it should be elected much like the president on a national level.

No elected from his consistuency/local area bull where he just pulls a few favors or looks after his own and gets re-elected.

Why is our national leader decided by his party and his constituency?

So much of the country doesn't really have a say in who the leader of the country is.

Pittens

The idea is stupid, of course, because although the Taoseach having to campaign is a bit of a pain for him, I am sure, I am also sure that his seat is a certainty. Although an Irish tainiste lost a seat once.

who if given half a chance would turn this country into an ultra-right wing, fascist, catholic state. Ban elections, ban free-speech etc etc.

LOL.

Although to be fair Fine Gael did try that back in the day.

bmaxi

thebman wrote: »

Its clearly a joke though. No way anyone could think the public would buy this.

Why the hell should any of them be allowed represent us without being chosen by us to represent them?

No offence but when did FF give two fcuks as to what the public would or wouldn't buy?

Biggins

bmaxi wrote: »

...when did FF give two fcuks as to what the public would or wouldn't buy?

I think we all know the answer to that one.

lugha

I have to say my first reaction is that it might not be a bad idea. (I'm sure Martin isn't seriously suggesting this for the next general election). With one proviso, that the Taoiseach refrain from all political canvasing for the duration of the election campaign and attend to affairs of state.
Let's face it. There is close to zero prospect of Biffo or any sitting Taoiseach losing their seat, so maybe it's better if in times of crisis (especially), that our head of government is not running around for three weeks kissing babies and skulling pints.

thebman

lugha wrote: »

I have to say my first reaction is that it might not be a bad idea. (I'm sure Martin isn't seriously suggesting this for the next general election). With one proviso, that the Taoiseach refrain from all political canvasing for the duration of the election campaign and attend to affairs of state.
Let's face it. There is close to zero prospect of Biffo or any sitting Taoiseach losing their seat, so maybe it's better if in times of crisis (especially), that our head of government is not running around for three weeks kissing babies and skulling pints.

Its a bad idea. You can justify lots of things using the above logic. It doesn't change the fact that we live in a democracy and he has to be elected when in such a high position.

You may say its unlikely that a sitting Taoiseach would lose his/her sit but there is a chance and if the public don't want him/he there then they should be accountable.

No way in hell this can ever be introduced IMO.

Eutow

If Martin and FF were ever to get their wish, wouldn't they have to change the Constitution, therefore, hold a referendum? It's a completely daft idea, but does not surprise me given the quality of our representatives. Unfortunately, the majority of the country never have a direct say on who the Taoiseach is, so in a way, we almost have something similar to what he proposes, in that local constituents would just vote Cowen or whoever anyway because they are "one of our own". Gombeen politics at its best.

The Raven.

Eutow wrote: »

If Martin and FF were ever to get their wish, wouldn't they have to change the Constitution, therefore, hold a referendum? It's a completely daft idea, but does not surprise me given the quality of our representatives. Unfortunately, the majority of the country never have a direct say on who the Taoiseach is, so in a way, we almost have something similar to what he proposes, in that local constituents would just vote Cowen or whoever anyway because they are "one of our own". Gombeen politics at its best.

I agree with everything you say, but I have to laugh at the idea of them being 'our representatives'. That is what they are supposed to be, but the reality is that they don't actually represent us at all. They do what they want and what their party wants. Consequently, they only represent themselves and their party.

Dannyboy83

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/even-cowens-backyard-lost-out-on-new-ida-jobs-2115533.html

Half of Taoiseach Brian Cowen's Laois-Offaly constituency failed to win a single Industrial Development Agency (IDA) job last year as unemployment blackspots vied for jobs.

Little wonder they suggested this now really.

kmick

To be fair I dont think Martin will have a problem keeping his seat. At campaign time he sends around legions of helpers with notebooks who call door to door and note down peoples issues. Then he goes about fixing those issues. It makes him bulletproof in his constituency.

However this idea is awful. At a time when confidence in the Irish political system is low and the choice is between Cowen and Kenny and attempt to further increase the bizarre perks they enjoy will enrage people. And thats what this is - a bizarre perk.

Riskymove

it could only work if the taoiseach was directly elected at a seperate time to the general election,

i.e. he is not a TD, that way he does not need to worry about local contituency issues

however, he would still need to be elected at some point and therefore would be involved in canvassing, albeit in a different way to the local TD infighting that goes on.


EDIT:

perhaps I am getting the wrong idea from what Martin is saying

perhaps he just emans that whoever is Taoiseach should be automatically returned as a TD at the next general election not as taoiseach

so that he is not distracted by canvassing and can get on with being Taoiseach.

there may be some merit in that, however, most elections here are run on the basis of who is the party leader and likely taoiseach so i dont think he would escape becoming inolved in that canvassing in any event.

MavisDavis

Nobody voted Cowen in as Taoiseach last time, at least let people have the chance this time.
Martin has officially lost it. Cowen's work as Taoiseach should be what people focus on in his constituency when it comes to election time. Letting the Taoiseach automatically keep his seat reinforces the idea of parish-pump politics I thought we were trying to get rid of. He should already be focusing on the country and not some pothole near Joe Blogg's house in Offaly.
*Sigh*