Child abuse: do Protestant clergy not do it?

Rebelheart

Amid the latest news from Germany and the United States, I'm wondering why similar stories are not emerging about the Protestant clergy.

Is it that they don't engage in it (to the same extent?), or is it that their respective societies aren't washing their linen in public?

brianthebard

They have wives.

Hagar

Celibacy. Catholic priest may not marry, other religions allow their ministers to marry.

Other than survival, procreation is our most basic instinct, suppress it at your peril.

bonerm

brianthebard wrote: »

They have wives.

weird

baalthor

There was the Kincora Boys Home scandal in the 70s or 80s. Can't remember if clergy were involved, must look it up ...

cafecolour

I'm sure they do engage in it (to some extent) but they are, for the most part, not controlled by a highly centralized bureaucracy that was habitually covering for the perps - that is more the controversy than anything. Most protestant churches are - to some degree - far more standalone.

I remember reading that the hasidic jews in new york are now increasingly going to police about abuse cases when they had previously gone to their leaders, but were increasingly feeling like it was being swept under the rug.

I think the insularness that is a large part of the problem.

cafecolour

I'd also add that the insular nature of the catholic church means this may have - to a degree - been going on for possibly centuries. IE I would not be surprised if offending priests had been molested as altar boys or such themselves, "learning" the behavior and to some degree viewing it as an accepted but unspoken thing within the church.

dcmu

brianthebard wrote: »

They have wives.

Do their wives look like ten year old boys?

owenc

dcmu wrote: »

Do their wives look like ten year old boys?

no they look like normal people

Hank_Jones

The fact is that not letting Catholic priests have sex leads to all this child abuse.


Catholic religion = bad

owenc

Hank_Jones wrote: »

The fact is that not letting Catholic priests have sex leads to all this child abuse.


Catholic religion = bad

i agree are they ever going to change those rules even the most religious people would agree with that like my mothers side are really religious and all that and they would even agree that this should be done..

me_right_one

Yes, child abuse is culturally endemic to the Catholic Clergy

Hank_Jones wrote: »

The fact is that not letting Catholic priests have sex leads to all this child abuse.

Wrong Wrong WRONG!!!

Its nothing to do with supressing your sexual urges, couldn't you just hire a prostitute in some town where you're not known? Anyway, the highest proportion of paedophiles are actually married, and abuse their own children. Its just that paedofiles target positions of trust where they think they can get cover for their actions, hence why some of them targeted the church. There are paedofile teachers, doctors, swimming coaches etc. of all religions out there!

Its just that Catholicism is the biggest religon in the world, hence the (seemingly) higher proportion.

Victor

brianthebard wrote: »

They have wives.

That just makes it harder to expose them. There are many abusers in families also.

eth0_

brianthebard wrote: »

They have wives.

What a stupid response. Do you think paedophiles are cured when they get married?

OP - i'm sure there are instances of abuse within protestant churches but it's rare. The reason we have a paedophile problem that's almost unique to the Irish Catholic church in particular is because for a very long time, if your son was "a bit strange" the automatic response was to send him off to the seminary - sometimes from a very young age, around 14 or so - so the Holy Spirit ( :rolleyes: ) could sort him out. Add to this the fact it was very prestigious to be a priest back in the glory days of Catholic Ireland so a lot of young men entered the priesthood because it was just the path the were expected to follow, and a lack of psychological testing during their training, and you've pretty much got a catch-all for potential paedophiles.

Dancor

brianthebard wrote: »

They have wives.

Im sure alot of peados and rapists are married.

If the urge is there they will most likely act on it regardless if they get reguler sex or not.

Intothesea

Hank_Jones wrote: »

The fact is that not letting Catholic priests have sex leads to all this child abuse.

I think that mandatory celibacy is an excellent beacon for the only people not interested in an average home-life or lifestyle: perverts, twisted power trippers and the terminally emotionally-stunted. The guys closest to the congregation seem to have fit this bill anyway.

Cianos

I'd be almost certain that abuse has been going on for as long as the church has existed. Probably way more than what is happening nowadays. It's only now that society is more liberal and open to talking about sex that the victims even have a chance to go public.

The perception is "Today the Catholic church is corrupt and full of child abusers", because we are only hearing about it now, so it's mistakingly presumed that it was not going on before.

I think a lot of people still have a romantic view of what the church was, and they hope it can be like that again. Their view is blinkered from the fact that it's not that the frequency of abuse has increased nowadays, it's just been given a chance to see the light of day. The church has always been corrupt - just like any system that has human involvement.

Black Swan

"The three companies that insure the majority of Protestant churches in America say they typically receive upward of 260 reports each year of young people under 18 being sexually abused by clergy, church staff, volunteers or congregation members."

Source: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=275x5312

brianthebard wrote: »

They have wives.

"In the United States, about 50% of men arrested for pedophilia are married."

Source: http://www.minddisorders.com/Ob-Ps/Pedophilia.html

Hank_Jones wrote: »

The fact is that not letting Catholic priests have sex leads to all this child abuse.

"The onset of pedophilia usually occurs during adolescence. Occasional pedophiles begin their activities during middle age but this late onset is uncommon."

Adolescent priests? :rolleyes:

Source: http://www.minddisorders.com/Ob-Ps/Pedophilia.html

Dan I Am

It's all about easy access to children. In Ireland, the Catholic Church was an obvious route. Somewhere like the UK, pedophiles where attracted to jobs in state run childrens homes, or if they were posh, as teachers in private schools.

brianthebard

eth0_ wrote: »

What a stupid response.

*checks forum*
Yep, its still Ah, and I'm still entitled to make a stupid response if I like.

mike65

Its not a well balanced life really is it? Packed off to a seminary as a child to spend all hours with other boys some of whom are already "corrupted" and older men who hold all the power.

If the various Protestant churches have far fewer reported incidences (esp in this day and age) its probably because there are far fewer crimes to report.

Its just that Catholicism is the biggest religon in the world, hence the (seemingly) higher proportion.

Estimates Catholicism - 1.2 billion
Protestantism - 670 million

So you'd expect about half the number of claims in Protestant churches if doing a crude per capita translation.

orourkeda

brianthebard wrote: »

They have wives.

They abuse them instead

RMD

1. They have wives.

2. I don't think they had absolute control of the public within the last 60 years or so like the Catholic church had.

Ri_Nollaig

There is of course abuse in other religion and probably any role that allows a pedophilia to exploit their position of power, i.e. club scouts to parents...
I doubt it has anything to do with them been married or not.
But the massive difference is they don't have a huge hierarchy behind them that preferred to ignore the problem and hide it from the public above all else.

Rebelheart

dcmu wrote: »

Do their wives look like ten year old boys?

That is, in fairness, a very good point. I may be wrong but I find it hard to believe that if a heterosexual man cannot have a wife, he suddenly becomes interested in children (as if he's allowed to have them!).

Does anybody have proof for such a change? (clearly many people here do think celibacy is the problem so ...)

mike65

Are paedophiles born or made?

orourkeda

Rebelheart wrote: »

That is, in fairness, a very good point. I may be wrong but I find it hard to believe that if a heterosexual man cannot have a wife, he suddenly becomes interested in children (as if he's allowed to have them!).

Does anybody have proof for such a change? (clearly many people here do think celibacy is the problem so ...)

Then there are a lot of non priests who do not have celibacy forced upon who arent exactly worn out by the amount of sex they're getting. This doesnt necessarily make them child abusers

Rebelheart

Hank_Jones wrote: »

The fact is that not letting Catholic priests have sex leads to all this child abuse.


Catholic religion = bad

While I totally agree with you that it is ridiculous that priests cannot marry and have children, the above thinking is illogical. It is at least just as forbidden for them to abuse children as it is for them to have an affair. So, surely *if* they were the marrying heterosexual type they would choose the affair?

Xluna

brianthebard wrote: »

They have wives.

So you're saying if a man can't shag a woman he'll resort to raping children? If that's true then the entire male population should be forced to have sex changes and the human species should just die out.

Xluna

cafecolour wrote: »

I'd also add that the insular nature of the catholic church means this may have - to a degree - been going on for possibly centuries. IE I would not be surprised if offending priests had been molested as altar boys or such themselves, "learning" the behavior and to some degree viewing it as an accepted but unspoken thing within the church.

Latest evidence suggests that paedophiles were molested as kids is a myth.

getz

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

"The three companies that insure the majority of Protestant churches in America say they typically receive upward of 260 reports each year of young people under 18 being sexually abused by clergy, church staff, volunteers or congregation members."

Source: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=275x5312


"In the United States, about 50% of men arrested for pedophilia are married."

Source: http://www.minddisorders.com/Ob-Ps/Pedophilia.html


"The onset of pedophilia usually occurs during adolescence. Occasional pedophiles begin their activities during middle age but this late onset is uncommon."

Adolescent priests? :rolleyes:

Source: http://www.minddisorders.com/Ob-Ps/Pedophilia.html

that is one of those misleading quote,its like saying more sober men driving cars have accidents than drunken drivers

JuliusCaesar

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

"In the United States, about 50% of men arrested for pedophilia are married."


"The onset of pedophilia usually occurs during adolescence. Occasional pedophiles begin their activities during middle age but this late onset is uncommon."

Adolescent priests? :rolleyes:

Many Catholic priest went to seminary aged 14. (Gabriel Byrne was one - but he left)

Secondly, the paedophiles who are priests were moved from parish to parish giving them more children to abuse. They're still a small proportion of all priests, but they seem to have had unlimited access to children even after they were found out.

Thirdly, the Catholic attitude to sex meant that the sexual act was regarded as perverted in any case unless you were specifically trying to concieve a child. There are many married people with blighted sex lives because of this...how much more perverted could it become in those training for the priesthood?

Xluna

mike65 wrote: »

Are paedophiles born or made?

Probably a mix,like most things.

PeterIanStaker

Yes, child abuse is culturally endemic to the Catholic Clergy

The RCC is obsessed with what consenting adults of both genders get up to between the sheets. Because they cant get any themselves, it is their mission to;

1) Make sex, sexuality and the act of sex itself dirty, disgusting and sinful in the minds of its herd, associating something pleasureable with sin is a great hook for controlling the ignorant.
2) Degrade women, the RCC sees women as nothing more than baby factories to produce the next generation, who according to the RCC are born with "original sin".

So, while that doesn't answer whether or not Protestant clergy engage in paedophilia, which I'm sure they do also, it goes some way to explaining the RCC mindset.

RustyBeanTin

Yes, child abuse is culturally endemic to the Catholic Clergy

is it possible for a man/woman to have sexual feelings for a child but repress them much the same as some gay people may repress their feelings for the same sex because they feel ashamed about it?
Having a partner may ease the urge to commit something wrong but priests cant have a partner.

Elenxor

Protestant clergy have sex with their wives until they procreate..
Thereafter the whole unsavoury acts are never visited again thank you very much!:D

Mike 1972

69 wrote: »

Celibacy. Catholic priest may not marry, other religions allow their ministers to marry.

Other than survival, procreation is our most basic instinct, suppress it at your peril.

So all unmarried adults over the age of say 30 are suspect paedophiles ?

Dont be at yourself

Mike 1972 wrote: »

So all unmarried adults over the age of say 30 are suspect paedophiles ?

I don't think anybody is reading into that.

However, it is a fair assumption to make that a life of celibacy is going to cause enormous sexual frustration in a person. Sex and procreation are our very raison d'etre, and to deny that to somebody is going to cause psychological problems.

Some priests are mentally strong enough to deal with those problems, some priests bone the houskeeper, and other still prey on innocent children.

At the end of the day, it the RCC wants to insist on this immoral and unnatural celibacy law, priests should be castrated - for their own good as well as that of their potential victims.

Rebelheart

me_right_one wrote: »

Wrong Wrong WRONG!!!

Its nothing to do with supressing your sexual urges, couldn't you just hire a prostitute in some town where you're not known? Anyway, the highest proportion of paedophiles are actually married, and abuse their own children.

Now, that is something somebody here should be able to answer, given that so many of you 'thanked' Brianthebard's post which blamed celibacy.

Mike 1972

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

However, it is a fair assumption to make that a life of celibacy is going to cause enormous sexual frustration in a person. Sex and procreation are our very raison d'etre, and to deny that to somebody is going to cause psychological problems.

Catholicism (along with many other religions) effictively prohibits all sexual activity outside of marriage.

Yes I know its widely ignored but there are some dyed-in-the-wool Catholics who do go along with it.

So if one is a unmarried adult and particularly devout Catholic do they face a stronger likelihood of becoming a paedophile ?

I do think (insoar as its any of my business -which it isint really) the RCC should abolish its celibacy requirement however the assumption held in a lot of quarters that this would serve as some kind of panacea for the problem of clerical paedophillia is rather naive.

Gigiwagga

Sexual suppression and celibacy play critical roles in the twisted behaviour of these people. I would imagine the average healthy 18 year old masturbates ten times a day, or more. Suddenly he joins a seminary (no pun intended) and sex is a sin, women are a sin, impure thoughts are a sin, skin is a sin, erections are big hard sins, arousal is a big manky sin, sins sins sins. Children are innocent and pure and easy to control, thus they become the target of these suppressed men. These men committed horrendous crimes, and made children suffer mindboggling cruelty and pain. But they are company men, the company's ethos is equally to blame, and the people behind it.
Ratzinger should be in custody right now, for knowingly operating a paedo-ring, he concealed and protected these people, and gave them more children to rape, as should Brady et al.
Their company (the RC Church) is a disgusting s***hole, cesspit of betrayal and dishonesty and corruption. Ratzinger makes Robert Mugabe look like Nelson Mandela. And time I see the pope I want to vomit on the TV, he disgusts me, to me he is the personification of evil.
And I don't like using such a biblical word as 'evil' for any body, but for him it's appropriate, IMO.

aDeener

info@williamrua wrote: »

Sexual suppression and celibacy play critical roles in the twisted behaviour of these people. I would imagine the average healthy 18 year old masturbates ten times a day, or more. Suddenly he joins a seminary (no pun intended) and sex is a sin, women are a sin, impure thoughts are a sin, skin is a sin, erections are big hard sins, arousal is a big manky sin, sins sins sins. Children are innocent and pure and easy to control, thus they become the target of these suppressed men. These men committed horrendous crimes, and made children suffer mindboggling cruelty and pain. But they are company men, the company's ethos is equally to blame, and the people behind it.
Ratzinger should be in custody right now, for knowingly operating a paedo-ring, he concealed and protected these people, and gave them more children to rape, as should Brady et al.
Their company (the RC Church) is a disgusting s***hole, cesspit of betrayal and dishonesty and corruption. Ratzinger makes Robert Mugabe look like Nelson Mandela. And time I see the pope I want to vomit on the TV, he disgusts me, to me he is the personification of evil.
And I don't like using such a biblical word as 'evil' for any body, but for him it's appropriate, IMO.

The fuck?!

Dont be at yourself

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Catholicism (along with many other religions) effictively prohibits all sexual activity outside of marriage.

Yes I know its widely ignored but there are some dyed-in-the-wool Catholics who do go along with it.

So if one is a unmarried adult and particularly devout Catholic do they face a stronger likelihood of becoming a paedophile ?

Well, I would say yes.

If there's a normally healthy man who will crack off a **** when he's horny, will have sex with women and so on, I would say he is less likely to abuse children.

If there's a normally healthy man who has been told that cracking off a ****, watching porn and having sex before marriage is dirty, evil and prohibited, I would imagine he would be more likely to become perverted and possible abuse kids than the guy above. At least they can still openly admit to finding women attractive and pursue them though.

It's the man who has been told and believes all of the above, becomes a priest and has no glimmer of hope of every getting his rocks off and it not being an affront against god, that's most likely to abuse kids, I would say.

35notout

me_right_one wrote: »

Wrong Wrong WRONG!!!

Its just that Catholicism is the biggest religon in the world, hence the (seemingly) higher proportion.

Small point, but Catholicism is not a religion, its a church or faith under the Christian Religion.

Catholic priests have always had more of a "god complex" than their other Christian counterparts imo - this had led them to believe they can do nothing wrong. Abusing children was their way of showing their power

Fear of the priest etc

robby^5

Yes, child abuse is culturally endemic to the Catholic Clergy

The celibacy is almost certainly the reason behind it. It's a great cover story to go along with access to trusting children.

Mike 1972

Given that the term "Child abuse" covers a lot more more than mere paedophillia surely Protestant clergy are more prone to it since many of them have children of their own to abuse ?

And if we go for the Dawkinesque definition of "Child abuse" just about all clergy are child abusers since they attempt to brainwash children.

beanyb

I think celibacy, and the f&cked up attitude to sex that is prevalent in the Catholic church, is a factor. But it's not the only factor. Another important factor is the amount of power that the Catholic church had in this country. This in turn has contributed to the cover-up which has made the scandal far worse for all involved. Access to children is obviously another. Power, and access to children is likely to attract people with paedophilic tendencies, and the culture within the Catholic church just exacerbated this even further.

There are probably paedophiles in all/most walks of life, including the Protestant clergy. However, other institutions didn't offer as great an opportunity for these predators to commit their crimes, and to get away with them if anyone actually found out.

Mike 1972

beanyb wrote: »

I think celibacy, and the f&cked up attitude to sex that is prevalent in the Catholic church, is a factor. But it's not the only factor.

Agreed.

After all if the linkage between celibacy and paedophillia was as strong as some people reckon then surely the Government should be providing prostitutes for those who cannot find partners by virtue of being too ugly/disabled/geeky/busy/socially unskilled/otherwise unqualified in order to prevent them turning into paedophiles :pac:

pljudge321

RustyBeanTin wrote: »

is it possible for a man/woman to have sexual feelings for a child but repress them much the same as some gay people may repress their feelings for the same sex because they feel ashamed about it?
Having a partner may ease the urge to commit something wrong but priests cant have a partner.

Something I've always wondered about is the amount of people who are paedophiles but never act on their attraction. Its actually quite scary when you think about it.

Pittens

Yes, child abuse is culturally endemic to the Catholic Clergy

Reading this entire thread I cant see any actual evidence that Catholic priests are more likely to be pedophiles than other people with access to children ( i.e. anybody acting as parents, or locus parentis).

Abuse clearly runs through any kind of society - and whether the perp was married or not has little significance. I was going to quote BrianTheBard's trite comment and say

"Joesph Frietzal was married".


( Were I a Thanks whore).

There are legitimate comments to be made about the Catholic hierarchy from these scandals, there are no legitimate comments to be made about Catholicism, or Irish society. Except that we wash our dirty linen in public.

Take our neighbours - Spain. No scandals. Is absence of evidence evidence of absence?

No. Spain probably has child abusing priests.

So what about Protestant Europe. Or secular Europe. Are there child abusers in secular schools, protestant schools, nurseries, etc.

Let's take the UK.

1) Kincora.
2) Anecrdotal evidence on all Public schools.
3) Islington.
4) Jersey. ( these two linked).
5) Child abuse of the 10,000 children transported to Australia.
6) Abuse in kindergartens.

Belgium had a scandal that seemed to go to the top, then we heard nothing from it.

The Catholic church is to blame, but not Catholicism or Catholic societies.

We investigate our abuse because the Catholic church is the ruling class no longer.

If the UK opened it's lid, it would bring down - I think - plenty of the great and mighty.

Pittens

Yes, child abuse is culturally endemic to the Catholic Clergy

for those who cannot find partners by virtue of being too ugly/disabled/geeky/busy/socially unskilled/otherwise unqualified in order to prevent them turning into paedophiles

Putting it like that shows the absurdity of the "celibacy cause pedophilia" nonsense.

And this: most child abusers are parents. Most abused children are abused by their parents.