Surname battle

LegacyUser

My partner and I are planning a family. We're both very liberal and I thought he saw me as an equal until he said he assumed the children would have his name. I never intended on changing my name and I want my children to have my name. I will be the one having them, so why would he assume this is what I would want, especially as he knows I'm not into maintaining patriarchal traditions like this.
I tried to compromise by suggesting double barrel names, but it is not even negotiable. I have now seen a sexist side to him and he is not taking my views into account. He said it will be confusing if they have two last names, but so what? Why shouldn't our children have mum and dad's names? Why is he being so sexist? Help.

metrovelvet

Do you use your mothers or your father's last name yourself?

We are all using our fathers, grandfathers last names. I would hate a double barell. Let him have this one. It's probably the last decision he will ever make.

LegacyUser

I think you are the insensitive one. If someone goes to school with a double barrel name (i.e. the child), people are going to assume his parents have problems or something. Different = bullies. You are also going against the norms of society and that is obviously making him feel less wanted. I think you need to see this from his perspective

seamus

It's traditional, even if the woman doesn't adopt the man's surname, that the children will take the man's surname. It's the whole "carrying the family name" thing.

Although it has sexist origins, it doesn't necessarily mean that he's being sexist - he made a presumption based on the way he was raised.

You also have to consider that he may be concerned about being emasculated. If he's married but his wife or kids don't have his surname, then who is he - Bobo the sperm guy? I'm know that's how I'd feel if my wife suggested that our kids had her surname. It would be equally sexist to suggest that the kids take your name on account of you having carried them.

I think double-barrelled is probably the way you'll have to go, he might just take some tiem adjusting to it. Other things which couples have been known to do is to create a whole new surname for themselves based on merging their two surnames. So if, for example your surnames are "Burke and Kenny", then you give the kids a new surname - "Burney" (or something! ).

Danniboo

surname wrote: »

My partner and I are planning a family. We're both very liberal and I thought he saw me as an equal until he said he assumed the children would have his name. I never intended on changing my name and I want my children to have my name. I will be the one having them, so why would he assume this is what I would want, especially as he knows I'm not into maintaining patriarchal traditions like this.
I tried to compromise by suggesting double barrel names, but it is not even negotiable. I have now seen a sexist side to him and he is not taking my views into account. He said it will be confusing if they have two last names, but so what? Why shouldn't our children have mum and dad's names? Why is he being so sexist? Help.

You're being just as sexist and unfair, if he agrees to double barrel what's next who's name is first or last :rolleyes:. You get to experience the joy of carrying the child for 9 months and they will always have a special bond with their mother, given them their fathers surname is a way for them to have a special bond to him. Anyways your shoving your extreme liberal views on your children by going against the norm with the surname thing, that's not fair.

Lux23

Danniboo wrote: »

You're being just as sexist and unfair, if he agrees to double barrel what's next who's name is first or last :rolleyes:. You get to experience the joy of carrying the child for 9 months and they will always have a special bond with their mother, given them their fathers surname is a way for them to have a special bond to him. Anyways your shoving your extreme liberal views on your children by going against the norm with the surname thing, that's not fair.

In Spain and Portugal some people have double barrel names as it can be traditional for children to take one name from the father and one from the mother so in an equal society I see double barrelled names as the way forward. There will be only one male in Ireland who can carry on my family name so I fully intend my children to get my name and this is not an extreme or even liberal view, its equalitarian.

OP - you will both have to settle for the double barrel name and I don't see why people see this an issue. Don't back down and listen to views such as the above, you partner has control over the kind of realtionship he has with his children and carrying his name soley will not make a blind bit of difference.

krudler

surname wrote: »

My partner and I are planning a family. We're both very liberal and I thought he saw me as an equal until he said he assumed the children would have his name. I never intended on changing my name and I want my children to have my name. I will be the one having them, so why would he assume this is what I would want, especially as he knows I'm not into maintaining patriarchal traditions like this.
I tried to compromise by suggesting double barrel names, but it is not even negotiable. I have now seen a sexist side to him and he is not taking my views into account. He said it will be confusing if they have two last names, but so what? Why shouldn't our children have mum and dad's names? Why is he being so sexist? Help.

Last I heard it takes two people to make a baby, and he'll be raising them as well. If you think its sexist to do anything traditional then dont have kids. Theres being liberal and not taking his name in marriage (assuming you didnt/wont given your view on this) and then theres just being liberal to the point of being over the top and petty, is a child not having your name going to degrade you as a woman in any way? no of course not, and its the way the vast majority of people are named, yourself included probably.

LegacyUser

surname wrote: »

We're both very liberal

and I thought he saw me as an equal Help.

You don't sound anything close to liberal, and you are blowing this out of all proportion. Because your partner wants to do the normal thing (like it or not its what about 99% of the population do) you think he sees you as inferior.

Your fighting this fight to draw.

Sorry but I think your being very silly.

Lux23

krudler wrote: »

Last I heard it takes two people to make a baby, and he'll be raising them as well. QUOTE]

So why object to a double barrell name then?

seamus

Lux23 wrote: »

There will be only one male in Ireland who can carry on my family name so I fully intend my children to get my name and this is not an extreme or even liberal view, its equalitarian.

I presume you mean that a double-barrelled name is equalitarian

Another aspect I thought of this, still has to do with emasculation, but is equally valid.

If the children have your surname and your husband is bringing them to a doctor's, school, whatever, then your husband is going to be called by your surname. All the time, by receptionists saying, "Mr. <whatever>, your son is finished" and so forth.

I can tell you from experience that being called by your wife's surname is about as bad as having 50 of your mates standing behind you making whipping noises. It's funny once or twice, an in-joke. If it was happening all the time, I would find it humiliating.

Danniboo

Lux23 wrote: »

In Spain and Portugal some people have double barrel names as it can be traditional for children to take one name from the father and one from the mother so in an equal society I see double barrelled names as the way forward. There will be only one male in Ireland who can carry on my family name so I fully intend my children to get my name and this is not an extreme or even liberal view, its equalitarian.

OP - you will both have to settle for the double barrel name and I don't see why people see this an issue. Don't back down and listen to views such as the above, you partner has control over the kind of realtionship he has with his children and carrying his name soley will not make a blind bit of difference.

How exactly is you insisting that your children get your name equality? We're not in Spain or Portugal and we don't live by other countries belief systems, would you be so quick to throw another country into the equation if people were to say women should cover up completely in public, no I don't think so.

Don't dismiss my views there as valid as anyone elses, call me crazy but some people think taking the surname of the man you love or marry as a sign of your commitment to each other and to share a family name.

metrovelvet

I dont think its fair to burden the child with the choice of two names by imposing your ideologies on the child.

We take our fathers names. It is their gift to us.

Lux23

Danniboo wrote: »

How exactly is you insisting that your children get your name equality? We're not in Spain or Portugal and we don't live by other countries belief systems, would you be so quick to throw another country into the equation if people were to say women should cover up completely in public, no I don't think so.

Don't dismiss my views there as valid as anyone elses, call me crazy but some people think taking the surname of the man you love or marry as a sign of your commitment to each other and to share a family name.

They will get my name and my partners name, although that's assuming the guy will be round for the kid. I wouldn't expect my children to have just my name so why should a make partner? That's equality. I won't call you crazy, that's your opinion but call someone extreme because they want their children to carry both names is way out of line.

krudler

Danniboo wrote: »

How exactly is you insisting that your children get your name equality? We're not in Spain or Portugal and we don't live by other countries belief systems, would you be so quick to throw another country into the equation if people were to say women should cover up completely in public, no I don't think so.

Don't dismiss my views there as valid as anyone elses, call me crazy but some people think taking the surname of the man you love or marry as a sign of your commitment to each other and to share a family name.

bingo, theres a traditional aspect of being married or involved with someone, if you dont like the idea of that, then dont be in a relationship and instead you can live out your days alone but as a woman free from her penis endowed opressors.

LegacyUser

seamus wrote: »

I presume you mean that a double-barrelled name is equalitarian

Another aspect I thought of this, still has to do with emasculation, but is equally valid.

If the children have your surname and your husband is bringing them to a doctor's, school, whatever, then your husband is going to be called by your surname. All the time, by receptionists saying, "Mr. <whatever>, your son is finished" and so forth.

I can tell you from experience that being called by your wife's surname is about as bad as having 50 of your mates standing behind you making whipping noises. It's funny once or twice, an in-joke. If it was happening all the time, I would find it humiliating.

but women shouldn't feel humiliated because centuries of tradition mean they and their children should have a man's name? If this is what makes men emasculated no wonder the OP wants a strong female surname for her children.

LegacyUser

Lux23 wrote: »

although that's assuming the guy will be round for the kid.

whoa, thats a big leap right there.

Interesting line of thought you have there

Danniboo

There will be only one male in Ireland who can carry on my family name so I fully intend my children to get my name and this is not an extreme or even liberal view, its equalitarian.


This is what you said not that I want the kids to have both our names. To be honest if you really felt equal to your partner you wouldn't feel the need to cling to every bit of control you can over small issues, if you really believed you were equal you wouldn't mind giving the odd compromise here and there as should he, something so small shouldn't make you feel less equal if you truly believe you are.

By the way call me crazy is an expression, not my opinon, I don't actually believe i'm crazy!

metrovelvet

There are feminists who argue heterosexuality is part of the patriarchal system and that by having a baby you have been hoisted on your own biological petard and have given into the patriarchal oppressors because now you will be confined to the menialities of motherhood rather than pursuing your dreams.

Jesus Christ give the child his father's last name.

LegacyUser

You also havent considered what your child will have to go through explaining over and over why he has his mother's surname and not his fathers. There are bound to be kids making up rumours that he is not the real father.

Your partner is also going to have to constantly explain to people that he is in fact the real father.

Double-barrel names are silly most of the time and it will just remind you constantly of this disagreement.

Whatever about your so-called "liberal" views, your child shouldnt have them imposed on her/him.

Danniboo

metrovelvet wrote: »

There are feminists who argue heterosexuality is part of the patriarchal system and that by having a baby you have been hoisted on your own biological petard and have given into the patriarchal oppressors because now you will be confined to the menialities of motherhood rather than pursuing your dreams.

Jesus Christ give the child his father's last name.

Honestly, have you ever heard the likes did it ever dawn that women might actually want a baby and that might be their dream :rolleyes:

Lux23

Danniboo wrote: »

There will be only one male in Ireland who can carry on my family name so I fully intend my children to get my name and this is not an extreme or even liberal view, its equalitarian.


This is what you said not that I want the kids to have both our names. To be honest if you really felt equal to your partner you wouldn't feel the need to cling to every bit of control you can over small issues, if you really believed you were equal you wouldn't mind giving the odd compromise here and there as should he, something so small shouldn't make you feel less equal if you truly believe you are.

By the way call me crazy is an expression, not my opinon, I don't actually believe i'm crazy!

I meant both names. Sorry if you misunderstood me. I see your point there and as I have yet to meet someone to share my life with I haven't learned all that much about compromise in realtionships yet but I don't see why a double barrell name is such a big deal for any man. I could become one of those women that give every part of their life over to the man she loves but at the moment I have my views on these things.

metrovelvet

Danniboo wrote: »

Honestly, have you ever heard the likes did it ever dawn that women might actually want a baby and that might be their dream :rolleyes:

Duh. Of course I have.

Im just pointing out what some ideologies would say about it, the same ideology which is propelling this argument about the surname.

Danniboo

Lux23 wrote: »

I meant both names. Sorry if you misunderstood me. I see your point there and as I have yet to meet someone to share my life with I haven't learned all that much about compromise in realtionships yet but I don't see why a double barrell name is such a big deal for any man. I could become one of those women that give every part of their life over to the man she loves but at the moment I have my views on these things.

Some people automatically presume kids with a double barrel surname come from a broken home, their parents aren't married(not that there's anything wrong with that) etc, just some food for thought.

I'm all for being independant etc but I really don't think it would be a problem taking my future husbands surname or for my kids to so. If you are absolutely head over heels in love with someone and want to spend the rest of your life with them would you not be proud to share his name.

LegacyUser

Danniboo wrote: »

Some people automatically presume kids with a double barrel surname come from a broken home, their parents aren't married(not that there's anything wrong with that) etc, just some food for thought.

I'm all for being independant etc but I really don't think it would be a problem taking my future husbands surname or for my kids to so. If you are absolutely head over heels in love with someone and want to spend the rest of your life with them would you not be proud to share his name.

Why would he not be proud to share yours? Why is the woman the one to give up her name to ensure a man doesn't feel emasculated?

Danniboo

metrovelvet wrote: »

Duh. Of course I have.

Im just pointing out what some ideologies would say about it, the same ideology which is propelling this argument about the surname.

I think you took my post up wrong, I wasn't actually asking you or saying you were speaking nonsense.I did realise these weren't your views from the wording of your post , it was a somewhat rhetorical question, you obviously didn't pick up on that.

krudler

Lux23 wrote: »

I meant both names. Sorry if you misunderstood me. I see your point there and as I have yet to meet someone to share my life with I haven't learned all that much about compromise in realtionships yet but I don't see why a double barrell name is such a big deal for any man. I could become one of those women that give every part of their life over to the man she loves but at the moment I have my views on these things.

Thats not the issue either, I dont assume my girlfriend is going to be all about me once/if we get married, I want her to have her own career and goals just as much as I do, I dont subscribe to the good little housewife idealogy for a woman, if the woman is happy to do that then fine, but if she wants her own career and as long as the marriage and upbringing of the kids doesnt suffer then more power to her. There has to be some compromise in all aspects of relationships, but like it or not having your fathers name is a traditional thing, you can be as liberal and hip as you like but it just seems like you're doing it for the sake of appearances, and what about the kids? children with double barrelled names are ripe for bullying in school, because other kids will pick up on anything different and run with it.

When it comes to marriage men usually get the lower part of the "equality" anyway, the majority of weddings are based around what the bride wants, I've been to weddings where the groom had no more input than turning up on the day, same with divorce, custody of kids usually goes to the mother. So let him have his kids be named after him, its not oppressing your womanhood in any way.

omahaid

Sorry OP, I'm going to side with the majority on this thread. It has nothing to do with how he views you it's just tradition. And the child will be treated differently if s/he has a double barreled surname or the mothers surname. So for that reason alone I would go with the fathers surname.

LegacyUser

OP a man's name is fundamental to his being

Its one of the few things he contributes,
You get to carry the child and bond with it in a way a father cant

and you now want to deny him the normal fathers right/ tradition

Why is his name an issue for YOU!
I'd see that as an insult to my family

Lux23

Danniboo wrote: »

Some people automatically presume kids with a double barrel surname come from a broken home, their parents aren't married(not that there's anything wrong with that) etc, just some food for thought.

QUOTE]

What is so wrong with coming from a broken home or if their parents aren't married? These things aren't taboo anymore unless you are a member of SPUC so I don't see why this is a problem. And if I ever met someone with a double barrell name I would just assume they were posh more than anything. Thats what I associate it with in my mind.

krudler

Lux23 wrote: »

Danniboo wrote: »

Some people automatically presume kids with a double barrel surname come from a broken home, their parents aren't married(not that there's anything wrong with that) etc, just some food for thought.

QUOTE]

What is so wrong with coming from a broken home or if their parents aren't married? These things aren't taboo anymore unless you are a member of SPUC so I don't see why this is a problem. And if I ever met someone with a double barrell name I would just assume they were posh more than anything. Thats what I associate it with in my mind.

Thats another target for bullying in school, see how easy you just admitted you'd view someone differently with a double name? imagine what a bunch of kids would do with that

TomMc

I think pompous / pretentious parents when I hear double-barrelled names. Although more from the mothers side. Calling a child a name that sounds more like a firm of solicitors is hardly joined up thinking. Just my 2c.

krudler

TomMc wrote: »

I think pompous / pretentious parents when I hear double-barrelled names. Although more from the mothers side. Calling a child a name that sounds more like a firm of solicitors is hardly joined up thinking. Just my 2c.

Ha, brilliantly put, "hello I'm Cecil Johnston Mooney O'Brien (inc)" i used to go to school with a guy who had a double barrelled name and for 6 years he had the piss taken out of him for it all the time.

LegacyUser

unreg3242 wrote: »

OP a man's name is fundamental to his being

Its one of the few things he contributes,
You get to carry the child and bond with it in a way a father cant

and you now want to deny him the normal fathers right/ tradition

Why is his name an issue for YOU!
I'd see that as an insult to my family

Seriously? Is her family not being insulted by the fatc that SHE is expected to give up HER name to make a man feel ok?
OP, if men are this focused on how fantastic their names are I feel sorry for them. Stick to your guns.

D-Generate

Unfortunately you can't look at the surname naming scheme in a very mature manner because it turns out kids are very immature and if your kid is different with the naming scheme then in all likelihood the kid will be marked out as different. In an ideal world then compromises should be met with the naming but its not an ideal world and especially not at that age.
I realize that when I was a kid and if a child had a double-barrelled name I used to consider them odd. Heck I still do to a certain degree and figure it to be pompous and as a previous poster said "like a lawfirm".
Also if double-barrelled named kids marry someone how does the naming convention pass on? Is it an exponentially increasing naming situation?!

Lux23

D-Generate wrote: »

Unfortunately you can't look at the surname naming scheme in a very mature manner because it turns out kids are very immature and if your kid is different with the naming scheme then in all likelihood the kid will be marked out as different. In an ideal world then compromises should be met with the naming but its not an ideal world and especially not at that age.
I realize that when I was a kid and if a child had a double-barrelled name I used to consider them odd. Heck I still do to a certain degree and figure it to be pompous and as a previous poster said "like a lawfirm".
Also if double-barrelled named kids marry someone how does the naming convention pass on? Is it an exponentially increasing naming situation?!

They can take one name from the mother and one from the father.

seamus

???222 wrote: »

but women shouldn't feel humiliated because centuries of tradition mean they and their children should have a man's name? If this is what makes men emasculated no wonder the OP wants a strong female surname for her children.

WTF is a "strong female surname"? :rolleyes:
Emasculation is a societal construct based on norms and traditions. Most men will be emasculated by taking their partner's surname, some won't. Just like some women feel humiliated by taking their partner's surname, but most don't. It's neither right nor wrong - it's personal choice - and in any relationship, one partner's personal choice shouldn't be allowed to ride roughshod over the other's.

In reality, this has very little to do with sexism because sexism is a blanket policy which favours one sex over the other. It's not sexist to give the children either surname provided that both parents are happy with the arrangement.

This is a relationship issue and all things aside, the children need a name. You are a family unit now, your parents and your siblings are your extended family and so any nostalgic notions in relation to the family name need to be cast aside.

Ask yourself why you feel the children need your name, and ask him the same question. It's going to have to be a compromise.

Emme

In Iceland daughters take the mothers name and sons take the fathers name. So if Johan had a son and called him Johan he would be called Johan Johansson. If Johan had a daughter and his partners name was Gudrun, she called her daughter Sigrid the child would be called Sigrid Gudrunsdottir. This seems like a fair way of doing things to me but this is Ireland, not Iceland.

If the OP is married to the father of her child I don't think that he's being unreasonable in wanting the child to have his surname.

metrovelvet

So siblings have different surnames? They must be very organised over there!

Emme

metrovelvet wrote: »

So siblings have different surnames? They must be very organised over there!

The mother keeps her surname when she gets married and that's the way it's been for generations (it's a Viking thing) so it's no big deal. Viking women had to be self-sufficient with their husbands going off for months raiding monasteries in Ireland so they wouldn't stand for any nonsense!

aidan24326

Lux23 wrote: »

So why object to a double barrell name then?

Lux23 wrote: »

They can take one name from the mother and one from the father.

Double-barrel names are stupid and pointless in the long run. It might work for one generation, you could be Helen Murphy-Jones or Andrew Taylor-Smith or whatever it might be. Well and good. But what if Murphy-Jones marries Taylor-Smith? Where do we go then? It's just not practical. Like it or not, kids have traditionally taken their fathers name, it's a social norm. Now believe me I'm not one for doing something just because it's any kind of norm but in this case it just makes practical sense for a number of reasons. And btw, I don't for a second think that a woman should take the man's surname in marriage, unless she really wants to of course, as there's no good reason for that.

Emme wrote: »

In Iceland daughters take the mothers name and sons take the fathers name. So if Johan had a son and called him Johan he would be called Johan Johansson. If Johan had a daughter and his partners name was Gudrun, she called her daughter Sigrid the child would be called Sigrid Gudrunsdottir. This seems like a fair way of doing things to me but this is Ireland, not Iceland.

Wouldn't that just get confusing though? We're kinda back down the double barrell road here.

dudara

Double-barrelled is just odd. What happens when two double-barrelled people have children? Plus it just causes bother throughout life when filling in docs etc.

Talk to your OH and work out which way the kids will be named. All children should share the one surname, as this will help when travelling etc. Which name you chose is up to you both.

You argue that you carry them for 9 months, but your partner helped create them. Both of you have an equal say in how they are named.

coolcat63

Rather than double barreled why not have the mother's surname as a middle name?

Inari

How about you both change your names to a surname you agree upon, and raise kids with that. That way no one carries on the family name, no double barrelled and it's 100% equal. Outside the box for the win

cch

metrovelvet wrote: »

So siblings have different surnames? They must be very organised over there!

Surnames in Irish are different for male and female, Mac/O vs Ni(c)

But back to the OP, if you (and it sounds like you do) have a long-term stable healthly relationship with your OH then on starting a family together the convention here is for the kids to have either double barrel or the fathers surname. If they have just your surname it would be quite a slight on him, that's he's not important to you, or you think he's about to scarper. Would cause a lot of grief with his family too probably.

metrovelvet

Double barrelled is a huge pain in the ass. Aside from the intolerable length of the name [in my own sons case] I get post misdirected, I get letters addressed to mrs double barrell. I have to spend a half an hour spelling it out. I cant stand it. Dont do it. I wish I hadn't.

Danniboo

Lux23 wrote: »

Danniboo wrote: »

Some people automatically presume kids with a double barrel surname come from a broken home, their parents aren't married(not that there's anything wrong with that) etc, just some food for thought.

QUOTE]

What is so wrong with coming from a broken home or if their parents aren't married? These things aren't taboo anymore unless you are a member of SPUC so I don't see why this is a problem. And if I ever met someone with a double barrell name I would just assume they were posh more than anything. Thats what I associate it with in my mind.

Where in my post did I say these things were wrong?? I don't recall saying that at all, you're just making presumptions.

iguana

surname wrote: »

I will be the one having them, so why would he assume this is what I would want,

For me I see that in most cases by virtue of the fact that they gestate the baby the mother forms a bond with the unborn baby that the father can't, because of this I have no problem with allowing our kids to have my husband's name.

Though I do feel that it's very easy for me to feel like this because my husband doesn't care even a tiny bit about whether I take his name or not. And while he would like our kids to have his name he understands that I could want them to have my name just as much, so he's never taken it for granted. The fact that he doesn't make any demands means I have no problem giving our kids his name and using his name for myself in family circumstances.

Though I will never, ever be a "Mrs" that word gives me the heebie-jeebies for some reason.:p

Danniboo

krudler wrote: »

Lux23 wrote: »

Thats another target for bullying in school, see how easy you just admitted you'd view someone differently with a double name? imagine what a bunch of kids would do with that

My point exactly it's about being viewed as different not as wrong as others have suggested.

Danniboo

wwwwwww wrote: »

[/B]


Why would he not be proud to share yours? Why is the woman the one to give up her name to ensure a man doesn't feel emasculated?

It's called tradition!

Alib2009

sensitive issue but in all honesty good training for the future. You both are equal parents, and will have to compromise on a lot more difficult issues.

personally i went double named on offical docs and for day to day school our son uses my husbands surname i did not and would not even have considered changing my name and it was not an issue.

when our son is old enough because his passport and birthcert offer him the choice of both and to the people who are saying kids get bullied because they are different wake up - there are sibblings with different surnames, step dads, etc in todays school it is all about what ever family make up you come from not the mum dad plus 2.4 the place the bullies are hearing the double barrelled issues is from ignorant parents! honestly do you really think a four year old thinks that deeply - if they have good balanced parents / guardians they accept every difference as just that. i have watched four year olds and seven year olds accept a hell of a lot more than any adults would maybe there is hope this debate wont be relevant in their day.

LegacyUser

You're only planning a family so there's no kid on the way right?

You never intended on taking his surname? Are you saying that you already have or that you don't intend to?

Are you married?

Can someone clarify the following scenario: If OP is not married but in a long term committed cohabitation and they have a child who takes her name will her partner, the biological father, have to carry a letter of authorisation by the mother, with regards to air travel to allow him to travel with his own child as the child will have a different name on the passport and would look very suspicious to airport authorities? (ok scenario, kid is 8 and dad is taking him to watch a Champions League game in Turkey)