Younger women and the pressures they face

Kimia

I thought of this thread when I was horrified by a story I heard lately. I'm not from Dublin but apparently in a well-known night spot for the younger generation (15-18 really) where the kind of stuff they get up to would boggle your mind. Apparently young girls there even tie their knickers around their wrists to show the guys that they are available. BJ's under tables and in corners are common too.

Fair enough we all got up to mad stuff when we were young but this made me think how much pressure younger women are under these days to go along with the herd. It sounds like (from this story anyway) that nowadays the popular girls are the ones who have 'scored' the most amount of men, and the girls that don't do this are mocked and slagged, not only by men, but by other girls too, sometimes their own friends.

It also makes me uncomfortable to think about how this all seems to be rooted in what makes men happy - as in, the priority for these girls seems to be men's approval, which they should not even care about! Maybe education would be the way to go - a special class for girls in school where they can talk about this kind of pressure together and find out how to respect themselves and their bodies, and to never feel under obligation to pleasure anyone for someone else's approval.

I know I sound like an oul one but what is happening to the youth of today!? Or is this something that girls of this generation need to 'go through' in order to come out the other side educated and with life experience. Wouldn't it be great if older women, who already had this life experience, could tell these young girls that it's ok to (for example) be a virgin until whatever age, to not have a boyfriend, to not do whatever it takes to get some random guys approval.

Any thoughts?

Xiney

I got most of my information about relationships and sex from Seventeen Magazine.

I don't think I would have taken a class or my parents seriously. But this magazine that was supposedly for 17 year olds (I was 11 - 13 when I read it regularly) was pretty much my guiding light. They didn't preach abstinence but they preached "feeling ready" and stuff like that, and to this day most of what I know about STDs and pregnancy risks comes from reading about it when I was 11.


I don't know what magazines for teen girls are like over here... but I hope Seventeen is still around when I have daughters.

dotsman

Those rumours about wez have been around for years (decades, probably at this stage). Yes they are a complete over-exaggeration and fit into the realm of urban legend.

Adults have been worried about the shocking behaviour of youths for thousands of years now. Nothing to get worked up about at all.

Faith

I remember hearing about a girl I'd gone to primary school with giving a guy a bj at a teen disco when we were all about 13/14. It was scandalous at the time, and I'd still be shocked by that really. I dread to think what they're up to these days. Are there any limits anymore? I know that one acquaintance of mine was infamous for having sex with a guy at a disco when she was 16ish.

TBH though, I felt under a lot of pressure as a teen to be more sexually experienced than I was, but that didn't make me drop my knickers. I held out of losing my virginity for longer than most of my friends (who were all respectable ages when it happened too), and I never did anything I wasn't ready for. So hopefully, while the pressures will always exist, most young girls will be self-assured enough to not do anything they don't want to just because of peer pressure.

Teferi

dotsman wrote: »

Those rumours about wez have been around for years (decades, probably at this stage). Yes they are a complete over-exaggeration and fit into the realm of urban legend.

Yarp. I remember when I first went to Wez I was expecting absolute chaos. I was sorely disappointed. It was very, very tame. The bouncers take care of most stuff going on faily swiftly. I dropped my mates youngest brother to it about a year back, it's still the same.

Kimia

Yes I was the same Faith. There wasn't huge pressure though - I remember reading the UK mags thinking 'what's this peer pressure all about' because we really didn't have much where i am from. Not about sex anyway!

If I have a daughter I really hope I can teach her to respect herself and to be self-confident. I know that people say that these are urban rumours but apparently this 'knickers on the wrist' thing is a fact - how horrifying! I mean, what kind of a message is that sending to men? And what happens if one of these girls gets cornered by some over-amorous guy? What if she wants to say no? She really hasn't done herself any favours by tying her knickers to her wrist eh!*

*Am absolutely not saying that if this ever happened that she'd 'deserve' it. But if you're not respecting yourself why would you expect anyone else to?

Lia_lia

Ahaha. Dunno about Wezz, but down in Kerry where we had the teeny bopper discos in community halls in little villages that no one had heard of there was ridiculous stuff going on. You'd look around and there would be at least 4 or 5 couples at any time having sex on chairs in the corner of the "dancefloor". The kids at these things would have been between about 12 and 16. Blowjobs all over the place. And VERY publicly done.

I never took part in this carry on, found the whole thing hilarious at that age. Usually was in a field behind the hall smoking.

Giselle

Can I get pedantic about something in the Op? A young girl of 15 - 18 is just that: a young girl.

You're not a woman until at LEAST 18, and to call a kid a woman just adds to the pressure to behave in a more adult way. I wasn't anywhere being close to womanhood at 15, and I'm pretty sure I've a lot more growing up to do yet at 24.

A girl with a healthy sense of self-worth isn't going to make herself available indiscrimminately, or advertise her availability by tying her underwear on her wrist.

So the question is, whats wrong with young girls self-esteem that they need validation in those ways? And how can we change whatevers wrong?

WanderingSoul

I'm in third year in an all girls secondary school at the moment. I think there can be a lot of pressure on some students depending on how their "friends" are and whether or not they hang out with the "popular" group.

I think, given I'm in an all girls school, that there is a lot of competition within some groups and pressure that comes mainly from friends. I personally don't like discos and such so as early as first year I was asked by classmates was I a frigid. I just raised my eyebrows, laughed and ignored them. Other people though definitely have been pressurized into doing things they shouldn't necessarily be doing.

And of course, as well as people outright pressurizing others, there are also lots of rumors going around which are both being written in one of the 30 or so toilet stalls (there's one which is absolutely infamous for gossip) or being told by friends to other friends etc. I think the rumors are actually worse. There was a rumor spread around at the end of last year about a particular girl (I'll call her Suzanne*) saying she was pregnant. She was essentially dropped by her 'best friend' and there were absolutely nasty comments going around about her. The pressure was bad enough that Suzanne* basically had a breakdown. Of course, it turned out the rumors were false (shocker! :eek:).

However, there is a girl (I'll call her Stephanie*) who I was talking to yesterday who is frightened as she believes she is pregnant. She's only 15 though. 15! I think this for example is a direct consequence of pressure put on young teenagers not by guys but by their friends.

As an aside comment, girls really can be bitches and they can turn nasty against "best friends" in an instant.

Stheno

The stories about knickers on wrists have been going around as long as I've left school and I'm 18 years out of school.

Kimia

Giselle wrote: »

Can I get pedantic about something in the Op? A young girl of 15 - 18 is just that: a young girl.

You're not a woman until at LEAST 18, and to call a kid a woman just adds to the pressure to behave in a more adult way. I wasn't anywhere being close to womanhood at 15, and I'm pretty sure I've a lot more growing up to do yet at 24.

A girl with a healthy sense of self-worth isn't going to make herself available indiscrimminately, or advertise her availability by tying her underwear on her wrist.

So the question is, whats wrong with young girls self-esteem that they need validation in those ways? And how can we change whatevers wrong?

+1 My thoughts exactly.

In a lot of way teenagers are a lot more secure and confident in themselves than we were ever were..they usually have a more open relationship with there parents..society is a lot more open....its easier to find information..there's a lot more help for people....there are fare more third level choice available...i think everyone has a difficult time as a teenager one way or the other...

as for peer pressure..reminds me of a funny story ...when my oldest daughter was going to teenage discos parents use to take it in turn to collect them...on the evening it was my turn... my daughter brings this young man over and says could we give him a life home...seem a bit strange as he only lived 500 yards from the disco...when we go the home i got the whole story from my daughter...seems this young mans 14year old girlfriend had decided that they were going to have sex that evening....he didn't want to and he was afraid to say no to her and afraid to walk home with her...

Assets Model

Xiney wrote: »

I got most of my information about relationships and sex from Seventeen Magazine.

I don't think I would have taken a class or my parents seriously. But this magazine that was supposedly for 17 year olds (I was 11 - 13 when I read it regularly) was pretty much my guiding light. They didn't preach abstinence but they preached "feeling ready" and stuff like that, and to this day most of what I know about STDs and pregnancy risks comes from reading about it when I was 11.


Me too I'm always surprised when people don't now stuff and wonder why they didn't read mags like that.

shellykbookey

The amount of teenage girls and young ones (and their parents) I want to grab by the shoulders and shake is ridiculous. If there's a 12 year old going around with what looks like a parent and you can acutally see her arse cheeks handing out under a "skirt" that parent needs to be slapped and steralised! Was in a shop at the same time as about half a dozen girls with backcombed mullets and what not and they were picking up items and saying does anyone like this and then saying well I like/dont like it based on one of the girls responses. FFS you have free will use it!

The pressure was always there though. I went to a secondary school of about 600 students and got branded with about 3 or 4 other girls fairly soon into first year as weirdos 'cos we wouldnt jump though hoops to try and get into either of the cliques. That was actively kept up untill leaving cert, actually trying to break us down so we'd give up and fall in line. Bullying, starting fairly vicious rumours, telling teachers we were bullying them, etc. It was a total affront to them that none of us were bothered with them. They all dressed the same, smoked, complained about smoking, fought with the same girls in other schools and got passed around by the same group of lads (some of them to this day). Most of them have done fcuk all with their lives and still hang around together cos no one in the grown up world thinks they're cool.

I've a sister who's 15 and I was worried about her when she started secondary school but she seems to have got in with a half decent bunch (they hate that shower in their school) so that's a relief.

Dinxminx

Alright, I went there when I was 15 or so and even back then the rumours of it being a den of immorality were flying and...

No. Just no. The place is a total disappointment. Very tame (depending on your definition of the word). Sure, there were lads fumbling with girl parts and girls fumbling with boy parts, and blowjobs in the stands and a token couple having sex in the darkest corner, but to be fair the bouncers booted them out fairly lively as soon as they were caught and most of the kids there just wanted to lose the 'frigid' tag (peer pressure at its finest) and kiss someone.

It was basically a clubhouse full of hormones, ringing with cries of 'me mate thinks you're gorgeous, will ya meet him?', and I doubt that it's much worse now.

Kids will be kids. Some will be precocious and "slutty", some will just dance and have a good time with their friends. That's never going to change.

Chuchoter

Kimia wrote: »

I thought of this thread when I was horrified by a story I heard lately. I'm not from Dublin but apparently in a well-known night spot for the younger generation (15-18 really) where the kind of stuff they get up to would boggle your mind. Apparently young girls there even tie their knickers around their wrists to show the guys that they are available. BJ's under tables and in corners are common too.

Joe Duffy misleading the nation yet again.....wish wez really was like that, there'd be loads more adventurous girls for me! Its really,really tame, tops a few drunk people.

smellslikelemon

I think they should be preaching the feeling ready thing first, and telling the younger girls (maybe even before first year) about contraception.
No horror stories but just to let them have an idea about everything.

I was pretty horrified to find out that in this year's fifth year of my old secondary school had six pregnant students (and there were a few others in the other years).
They always said it was over crowded (about 1500 students crammed into a school designed for 600) but it's still a huge number to my mind.

El Diablo 101

I believe there are many issues to clear up here.

The first is whether or not, a girl 'getting frisky' with a young man indicates a desire for their approval, a 'confidence booster' (sometimes due to peer pressure), or if they just wanted to. If it is the former, than we are entering dangerous territory regarding said persons self-confidence/ and self-esteem. If it is the latter, than if it is her own choice, and who has the right to say 'don't do that' (as long as nothing illegal is happening etc.)

It is my personal view that it is more often the former.

The second is that as a society we are getting more liberal, there is a lot more information readily accessible, and young girls especially are bombarded with messages of how they should look, act, etc. Unfortunately, this means that they might be taking acting out Britney Spears 'I'm a Slave 4 U', or reading 'Jordan's latest escipades' in some tabloid newspaper.

If those are the messages being given to young girls can you blame them?

Third is parenting. It was said earlier, and no need to repeat what was said.

nicegirl

Kimia wrote: »

I thought of this thread when I was horrified by a story I heard lately. I'm not from Dublin but apparently in a well-known night spot for the younger generation (15-18 really) where the kind of stuff they get up to would boggle your mind. Apparently young girls there even tie their knickers around their wrists to show the guys that they are available. BJ's under tables and in corners are common too.

Fair enough we all got up to mad stuff when we were young but this made me think how much pressure younger women are under these days to go along with the herd. It sounds like (from this story anyway) that nowadays the popular girls are the ones who have 'scored' the most amount of men, and the girls that don't do this are mocked and slagged, not only by men, but by other girls too, sometimes their own friends.

It also makes me uncomfortable to think about how this all seems to be rooted in what makes men happy - as in, the priority for these girls seems to be men's approval, which they should not even care about! Maybe education would be the way to go - a special class for girls in school where they can talk about this kind of pressure together and find out how to respect themselves and their bodies, and to never feel under obligation to pleasure anyone for someone else's approval.

I know I sound like an oul one but what is happening to the youth of today!? Or is this something that girls of this generation need to 'go through' in order to come out the other side educated and with life experience. Wouldn't it be great if older women, who already had this life experience, could tell these young girls that it's ok to (for example) be a virgin until whatever age, to not have a boyfriend, to not do whatever it takes to get some random guys approval.

Any thoughts?

I agree completely, and something should be done about it. I heard this issue being discussed on the radio not so long ago, and was horrified at what some mothers were saying about what was taking place at some teenage disco's. There is too much pressure on young girls in relation to boys, how they look etc which can lead to eating disorders etc. ya, something would need to be done

Piste

Often the rumours that go about regarding what goes on at these discos are just rumours to be taken with a bucket of salt. No use getting in a tizzy over them.

reap-a-rat

I'm 18 myself and myself and a friend were just talking about this the other day! oh wait, im 19... Anyway, we both feel that our age group, first year college students and those in LC now are the last of our "generation" so to speak! As we came up through our all girls sec school, there was the inevitable bitchiness, but not a lot of it. At discos, a small group of people would get drunk and it would be a big deal. Most of us went to have a laugh and hoped and dreamed for our first kiss, or just a nice ladeen to sweep us off our feet !

As we got older, we noticed that the younger girls carried a different heir to them, they just seemed so much more confident, cocky and bitchy than our year or those above us. They just seemed to not be phased by any authority, teachers or older students, and disrespect was what they did. I've heard from friends who have younger siblings of some of the shenanigans that go on nowadays in the discos, and we're a smallish country community! Even one friday night my boyfriend and I went into the chipper to get a pizza after we had a few games of pool, and there was a young girl drunk off her trolly being babysat by her just-about-less drunk friends... I recognised her as one of my SECOND year prefect class:eek:!!

I just think tho that kids are growing up to fast, they aren't being allowed to stay innocent for long enough! Just last week on the bus a girl was giving out to her 11 year old sister for smoking!! Its ridiculous! But I think we just have to get on with it and hope that if we have kids ourselves they won't turn out to be sluts!!

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

i'm 27 now (and not a woman), but when the girls in my class were your age they were saying the exact same thing about your generation and I was saying the exact same thing about your testicled comrades in years

Dudess

Our parents' generation were not as innocent and well behaved as they'd have us believe...

There's a lot of "Ee it were different in my day" type comments here from people who were only teenagers themselves not exactly 50 years ago...

Piste

Girls are better dressed at 13 than I was. Long gone are the O'Neill tracksuit bottoms and Gap hoodies (ok I never had a Gap hoody ) worn with scraped-into-a-ponytail-hair. It's all skinny jeans this and fancy tops that. That's the really depressing thing, I'm reminded of what a mess we (girls my age) looked back in the day.

chocgirl

Piste wrote: »

Girls are better dressed at 13 than I was. Long gone are the O'Neill tracksuit bottoms and Gap hoodies (ok I never had a Gap hoody ) worn with scraped-into-a-ponytail-hair. It's all skinny jeans this and fancy tops that. That's the really depressing thing, I'm reminded of what a mess we (girls my age) looked back in the day.

I know it's amazing how well teenagers dress now, and how well groomed they are. Even the pretty girls in my day had awful make-up and a uniform of combats and runners. I don't know how they can afford to look so good. And what are big girls supposed to wear out now?

Dudess

Don't teenagers generally just dress in whatever's fashionable for teenagers? And is there really a difference between how well teens dress now and how they dressed 5-10 years ago?

iguana

Dudess wrote: »

Don't teenagers generally just dress in whatever's fashionable for teenagers? And is there really a difference between how well teens dress now and how they dressed 5-10 years ago?

Yup, and in 5-10 years time they will look back at pictures of them now and think they were hideously unfashionable by whatever the fashion standard is by then.

"In my day" you were either a raver or grungy so teens either wore jeans with giantly wide legs (about 30" diameter for each leg) or sloppy clothes with music t-shirts under check/army shirts and big doc martins. Oooh! and you could even get padded check shirts to wear on cold days so you didn't need a coat. Can't wait until those cycle back around into fashion.:D

At least I was a few years too young to really get into shellsuits.

As for the sex stuff, those rumours were going about back then too. Certain girls were held in a mixture of awe and disdain for being big sluts and nasty poems were graffitied about their sexual prowess. Some people were seen as frigid/lesbians/childish/too desperately ugly because they weren't interested in boys. While the truth was that almost everyone was just dealing with puberty and had crazy teen crushes which would either be realised or not, usually not.

Some probably had sex, most didn't, and ime, the ones who had sex and the ones who didn't were often the opposite of who you expected.

SarahBeep!

reap-a-rat wrote: »

I'm 18 myself and myself and a friend were just talking about this the other day! oh wait, im 19... Anyway, we both feel that our age group, first year college students and those in LC now are the last of our "generation" so to speak! As we came up through our all girls sec school, there was the inevitable bitchiness, but not a lot of it. At discos, a small group of people would get drunk and it would be a big deal. Most of us went to have a laugh and hoped and dreamed for our first kiss, or just a nice ladeen to sweep us off our feet !

As we got older, we noticed that the younger girls carried a different heir to them, they just seemed so much more confident, cocky and bitchy than our year or those above us. They just seemed to not be phased by any authority, teachers or older students, and disrespect was what they did. I've heard from friends who have younger siblings of some of the shenanigans that go on nowadays in the discos, and we're a smallish country community! Even one friday night my boyfriend and I went into the chipper to get a pizza after we had a few games of pool, and there was a young girl drunk off her trolly being babysat by her just-about-less drunk friends... I recognised her as one of my SECOND year prefect class:eek:!!

I just think tho that kids are growing up to fast, they aren't being allowed to stay innocent for long enough! Just last week on the bus a girl was giving out to her 11 year old sister for smoking!! Its ridiculous! But I think we just have to get on with it and hope that if we have kids ourselves they won't turn out to be sluts!!

I second this completely!! I'm from a city and went to a school with students from a very bad area of town, in my first year of college now. I remember last year a friend of mine in 2nd year, who I had looked after when she was in 1st year, was talking to me about a girl in her year who had lost her virginity the year previous!! I was off college this week for easter and my friends and I were on about going into town to a club and we decided against it because we knew because of the holidays it would be full of sixteen year olds! Now I won't lie, when I was 15/16 I'd have a few sneaky drienks with friends of a saturday afternoon/ at a sleepover. But people of this age in nightclubs?! Seriously!!