Unions

Deise Tom

Anyone in Favour/Against the way the unions are holding the country to ransom right now.

doc_17

Another union bashing thread....

FlutterinBantam

Unions are slowly going down the tube.

They are afraid to call an all out strike because they know what will happen, the company in dispute will go bust and the workers will be out of work.

hence all their appetite is focussed on the public service

Why.... unions subs collected and payed into them

Unsackable workforce

No risk on their part


It's party central for them, where they can hold the taxpayer to ransom, gain public profile for their 'leaders' and then when all the detritus is scattered everywhere and peoples plans are in tatters who will clean up??

John Q Taxpayer.

Until these people are held accountable and can be sued for damages and loss of earnings they will continue in this vein.


History bears me out. Where has all the unrest been over the last twenty years.??

Public and semi state sectors.


Time we woke up to these people and made them accountable .

ei.sdraob

yes im in favour

the faster they implode on own **** the better everyone would be

Count Dooku

The theory of the labour aristocracy argues that opportunism in the working class has a material basis. The superprofits of monopoly capital support the benefits of a stratum of relatively privileged workers, whose interests in this are expressed by class-collaborationist politics. Marx and, especially, Engels, first developed this theory. It is most closely associated with Lenin, however, for whom it became "the pivot of the tactics in the labour movement that are dictated by the objective conditions of the imperialist era".

http://links.org.au/node/45

Sand

Ban union membership for public sector workers.

Its a rival loyalty for servants of the state, and a damaging one in times like these when a small cabal of union leadership exploit the fears and anger (understandable given the political leadership on offer) of their members to try and preserve the pay and conditions of an inner circle. Hard to escape that for all the anger of the poorer paid, it was the best paid inner circle who were able to cut their own deal. No solidarity there.

Id imagine though if you banned public sector unions, youd suddenly have a massive privatisation drive in the various unions. Couldnt risk losing their perch, no matter what hoops had to be jumped though.

The_Honeybadger

What would happen if Gov payroll stopped collecting union dues?

Not saying this is likely but is it possible the Gov could do this if the talks break down and the industrial action escalates? I'd pay any money to watch jack and the lads on Frontline if that ever happened

P. Breathnach

Sand wrote: »

Ban union membership for public sector workers...

And, while we are at it, scrap all other civil liberties.

Count Dooku

P. Breathnach wrote: »

And, while we are at it, scrap all other civil liberties.

Is it will be first example of regulation of civil liberties, when some groups started to abuse them?

murphaph

mickeyk wrote: »

What would happen if Gov payroll stopped collecting union dues?

Not saying this is likely but is it possible the Gov could do this if the talks break down and the industrial action escalates? I'd pay any money to watch jack and the lads on Frontline if that ever happened

That's actually a really interesting idea. It would require legislation as you are legally entitled to have your union sub collected by your employer and forwarded to your union automatically but this is not the case everywhere and legislation could remove that burden from the employer, who could then choose to pay the employee their full salary (after other deductions) and let the employee be responsible for forwarding their union dues on. I bet a significant number of union members would just not bother and would rather keep the money, thus hitting these disruptive unions where it hurts.

murphaph

P. Breathnach wrote: »

And, while we are at it, scrap all other civil liberties.

It is illegal in Germany for a member of the civil service to strike, however they can be members of unions AFAIK. I would not remove their right to be union members, but i certainly believe that they should be legally prohibited from striking.

gandalf

murphaph wrote: »

That's actually a really interesting idea. It would require legislation as you are legally entitled to have your union sub collected by your employer and forwarded to your union automatically but this is not the case everywhere and legislation could remove that burden from the employer, who could then choose to pay the employee their full salary (after other deductions) and let the employee be responsible for forwarding their union dues on. I bet a significant number of union members would just not bother and would rather keep the money, thus hitting these disruptive unions where it hurts.

That actually is a very good idea. Why facilitate funding an organisation that is disrupting your ability to work and to enact efficiencies. I agree with you human nature would dictate that a lot of the union members would not pay their subs.

If I were the Government I would remove the tax deduction from union subs as well.

problemchimp

murphaph wrote: »

It is illegal in Germany for a member of the civil service to strike, however they can be members of unions AFAIK. I would not remove their right to be union members, but i certainly believe that they should be legally prohibited from striking.

I agree with you here, but the public service are not on strike just doing exactly the job they are paid to do.

gandalf

problemchimp wrote: »

I agree with you here, but the public service are not on strike just doing exactly the job they are paid to do.

No they are not. By refusing to interact with the public they are not carrying out their full duties and by default they are not doing the jobs they are paid to do. Therefore payment should be withheld for the time they carry on like this and disciplinary action needs to be taken against staff engaged in this type of disruptive behaviour.

Riskymove

murphaph wrote: »

It is illegal in Germany for a member of the civil service to strike, however they can be members of unions AFAIK. I would not remove their right to be union members, but i certainly believe that they should be legally prohibited from striking.

Its not that simple, public servants do in effect strike:

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,1893564,00.html

the key difference to the argument here is that in exchange for a restriction on rights to industrial action (although contrary to many international labour law conventions) the civil servants are guaranteed certain rights and privileges

the pension levy and/or pay cuts would not have been implemented by the Government in germany

indeed they have recently gotten a modest pay increase

Riskymove

problemchimp wrote: »

I agree with you here, but the public service are not on strike just doing exactly the job they are paid to do.

different unions are taking different actions and some meet the criteria you mention...but.....the CPSU is clearly going further than that and its series of counter closures or not taking calls etc could end up in disciplinary action

problemchimp

deadtiger wrote: »

No they are not. By refusing to interact with the public they are not carrying out their full duties and by default they are not doing the jobs they are paid to do. Therefore payment should be withheld for the time they carry on like this and disciplinary action needs to be taken against staff engaged in this type of disruptive behaviour.

that maybe the case in the passport office but that is only a very small area. Gardai, nurses, clinical psychologists,firemen, street sweepers, etc.... all doing exactly what they are paid to do. just no goodwill.

murphaph

Riskymove wrote: »

Its not that simple, public servants do in effect strike:

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,1893564,00.html

the key difference to the argument here is that in exchange for a restriction on rights to industrial action (although contrary to many international labour law conventions) the civil servants are guaranteed certain rights and privileges

the pension levy and/or pay cuts would not have been implemented by the Government in germany

indeed they have recently gotten a modest pay increase

In Germany it's a little bit complicated. Some (but not all) public servants are termed Beamten. Some positions are automatically Beamte (police officers for example). Many require you to work as a normal public servant for a number of years, before you can apply for Beamte status. Once granted, you are effectively unsackable (like all public servants in Ireland, excluding temps) and in return you give up the right to strike. Ireland seems to have all the disadvantages of the German model and none of the advantages (for the taxpayer I mean).

dan_d

There's nothing wrong with unions per se.....they certainly have their place. However they've been allowed to run riot, and let push/make decisions for the last number of years by a very weak government. Now they're being told that they have to knuckle down and do what they're told, and they don't like it. What they are having trouble accepting is that they are not actually decision-making bodies. The Government makes the decisions, not the unions.

It's like a small child who's let get away with any sort of behaviour, then suddenly one day, there's rules introduced in their lives. Tantrums occur.

Riskymove

murphaph wrote: »

Ireland seems to have all the disadvantages of the German model (for the taxpayer I mean).

like?

gandalf

problemchimp wrote: »

that maybe the case in the passport office but that is only a very small area. Gardai, nurses, clinical psychologists,firemen, street sweepers, etc.... all doing exactly what they are paid to do. just no goodwill.

I believe it is also occurring in the DSW as well.

largepants

I'm fully behind the Unions stance at the moment. This Government (and especially in Cowens era) has persistently bullied the people of this country. The Banking fiasco, paycuts and their own so called paycuts are to name just a few. It's about time somebody stood up to these bullies.

If there was an all out stike I'd still be behind the Unions. Cowen is nothing but a dictator and the quicker he's fooked out, the better. And I don't give a toss about what the public think because as far as I'm concerned they hate us anyway.

The quicker someone in this Goverment has the vision to see the bigger picture and change Public Sector, the better for the whole country. This BS of bully boy tactics pisses me off and it needs to stop now.

problemchimp

deadtiger wrote: »

I believe it is also occurring in the DSW as well.

in fairness I don't think private or public sector could handle this dept. at the moment. It's getting a bit busy.

ei.sdraob

yeh and now the Unions are bullying the people of this country

people who are in many cases much worse of that the crowd the unions are protecting

they are nothing more than an organized racket, and should be dealt with as criminals for causing public damage

bamboozle

largepants wrote: »

I'm fully behind the Unions stance at the moment. This Government (and especially in Cowens era) has persistently bullied the people of this country. The Banking fiasco, paycuts and their own so called paycuts are to name just a few. It's about time somebody stood up to these bullies.

If there was an all out stike I'd still be behind the Unions. Cowen is nothing but a dictator and the quicker he's fooked out, the better. And I don't give a toss about what the public think because as far as I'm concerned they hate us anyway.

The quicker someone in this Goverment has the vision to see the bigger picture and change Public Sector, the better for the whole country. This BS of bully boy tactics pisses me off and it needs to stop now.

its such a pity you dont understand why these paycuts are necessary, do you realise that the banking fiasco would not have happened if the Financial Regulator, Central Bank and Dept of Finance had done what our taxes pay them to do?

bamboozle

THe government need to stand up to the unions and call their bluff.
the unions dont have enough reserves to pay their members for more than a few days if they went on all out strike. hence these pathetic attempts at go slows etc which seem to be doing nothing except increasing public anger towards them.
Govt need to front up and force unions into an all out strike and start docking pay for this nonsense 'go-slow' charade.

if a strike ever occured after 2 or 3 days unions would be broke and would be facing tough decisions, do they increase union subs, how do they pay the sic figure salaries of their leaders....it would all boil down to the union members realise they are being taken for a ride and many would leave.

stevoman

Sand wrote: »

Ban union membership for public sector workers.

Sure that would be completly illegal.

stevoman

bamboozle wrote: »

THe government need to stand up to the unions and call their bluff.
the unions dont have enough reserves to pay their members for more than a few days if they went on all out strike.

you see that would never happen. if the strike escalates within say for example the civil service, then just one department will be pulled out (say for example the passport office indefinititly). then all other union members pay an extra €5 a week to union fees and this subs the people on strike's wages. Thats how agriculture staff subsidised their staff on strike in Kerry 6 years ago. the union would never pull out an all out strike of every department. its not viable.

problemchimp

largepants wrote: »

I'm fully behind the Unions stance at the moment. This Government (and especially in Cowens era) has persistently bullied the people of this country. The Banking fiasco, paycuts and their own so called paycuts are to name just a few. It's about time somebody stood up to these bullies.

If there was an all out stike I'd still be behind the Unions. Cowen is nothing but a dictator and the quicker he's fooked out, the better. And I don't give a toss about what the public think because as far as I'm concerned they hate us anyway.

The quicker someone in this Goverment has the vision to see the bigger picture and change Public Sector, the better for the whole country. This BS of bully boy tactics pisses me off and it needs to stop now.

people need to look at the bigger picture here. It's not the rookie garda or seceratery who fooked up the public service it was government policy and senior management with no imagination. we need to focus on who caused these problems at senior level. I spent some time in hospital before Christmas and it was clear to me that lack of funding in certain areas is the problem. Staff goodwill was fantastic. A lot of people say on this thread and similar ones that if they went on a work to rule they would be sacked. I ask them, are they happy working for someone who offers them no basic protection? A few years ago nobody really wanted these public sector jobs as they could earn twice as much as a carpenter or in Intel. people made choices at the time. Now let's focus on who caused the problems and fook them out at the next general election. It is sad that people in the private sector are taking pay cuts also but the pay cuts that are being forced upon them are to protect the bosses profits, not for the good of the country.

whatnext

stevoman wrote: »

Sure that would be completly illegal.

If it were, we could change the law so

DidierMc

Those bad unions are stopping our children going to Disneyland. Won't somebody please think of the children!

DidierMc

whatnext wrote: »

If it were, we could change the law so

Why not go the whole hog and bring in the army to shoot at striking workers?

stevoman

whatnext wrote: »

If it were, we could change the law so

sure why dont we all become communists :rolleyes:

DidierMc

stevoman wrote: »

sure why dont we all become communists :rolleyes:

What?

Count Dooku

DidierMc wrote: »

Why not go the whole hog and bring in the army to shoot at striking workers?

Soldiers are public servants as well

DidierMc

Count Dooku wrote: »

Soldiers are public servants as well

The gardaí and army are different though. Their primary function is to protect the capitalist state, private property and the ruling class.

Count Dooku

DidierMc wrote: »

The gardaí and army are different though. Their primary function is to protect the capitalist state, private property and the ruling class.

You forgot about CPSU clerks from revenue, which must collect taxes from poor private sector workers in order keep living standards of labour aristocrats from public services and fund greed of ruling class

The_Honeybadger

problemchimp wrote: »

A few years ago nobody really wanted these public sector jobs as they could earn twice as much as a carpenter or in Intel. people made choices at the time. Now let's focus on who caused the problems and fook them out at the next general election. It is sad that people in the private sector are taking pay cuts also but the pay cuts that are being forced upon them are to protect the bosses profits, not for the good of the country.

Point 1 simply untrue as applications for ps jobs were 10 to every job during the boom in a time of full employment.

Point 2 also not accurate, I have access to the books at work and believe me the cuts that have been implemented are not a matter of protecting profits but keeping the door open. A family member also owns a highly successful SME and has put all staff on a short working week due to creditors not paying their bills on time (if at all) leading to massive cash flow problems. Luckily they have alot of reserves due to doing well during boom and will probably be ok. This is anecdotal I know, but is happening in alot of businesses.

There is also alot of downward pressure on wages for new positions, for example a company looking for a newly qualified accountant would have been paying 35-40k a few years ago. If they now advertised this job at 28-30k there would be experiences pro's willing to take their hand off for it rather than sit on the dole.

We also now have far fewer taxpayers earning less, so something has gotta give, even after all the cuts as difficult as they have been government expenditure is still far too high and simply has to come down, pointing the finger of blame is another matter.

stevoman

mickeyk wrote: »

Point 1 simply untrue as applications for ps jobs were 10 to every job during the boom in a time of full employment.

.

Have you figures to back that up, as i was working in some of the exam halls and i seen A LOT of empty desks, so id be interested to see you the figures for this.

Espeically since the public sector consists from gardai, to doctors, to nurses, to civil servants, to the army etc etc etc

DidierMc

Count Dooku wrote: »

You forgot about CPSU clerks from revenue, which must collect taxes from poor private sector workers in order keep living standards of labour aristocrats from public services and fund greed of ruling class

CPSU members do not use coersion or physical force.

P. Breathnach

problemchimp wrote: »

people need to look at the bigger picture here. It's not the rookie garda or seceratery who fooked up the public service it was government policy and senior management with no imagination. ...

Don't give me that.

There are problems in the public service (although not as many as some commentators would have you believe). They are the result of many things, including mistakes at management level. But the problems can also be laid at the foot of employees at service delivery level, whether as individuals, small groups working as cliques, or larger groups operating via trade unions. And some problems can be blamed on politicians as the bosses of the public service and making bad decisions for political advantage, and other problems are attributable to politicians "making representations" or otherwise interfering with administration. And users of public services can contribute to problems, doing the very Irish thing of messing up arrangements either intentionally or through unfocused contrariness.

The truth is that life happens, and there will always be problems in the public service. The task is to reduce them and cope with them.

Count Dooku

DidierMc wrote: »

CPSU members do not use coersion or physical force.

True
They will only report to law enforcement agencies. Without them gardai and judges would be blind

The_Honeybadger

stevoman wrote: »

Have you figures to back that up, as i was working in some of the exam halls and i seen A LOT of empty desks, so id be interested to see you the figures for this.

Espeically since the public sector consists from gardai, to doctors, to nurses, to civil servants, to the army etc etc etc

Another poster verified this a few weeks back will try to root out the source but it came from public records for job applications in the CS. Don't think I will be able to get figures for nurses and doctors etc but they are vocational jobs that require specific qualifications and joe public can't just apply for these so the ratio will undoubtedly be lower.

zootroid

I think it's fair to say at this stage I hate every workers union that exists. They interfere too much with the labour market. Given the level of protection workers enjoy these days through employment laws, I'm not sure they are necessary in this day and age.

The_Honeybadger

Civil Service
• Clerical (including term time) 21,395 2,091 - 10/1
• Administrative 14,307 349 - 40/1
• Senior Management & Professional 6,104 441 - 13/1
TOTAL 41,806 2,881 - Average 20 per position

http://www.publicjobs.ie/publicjobs/...report2006.pdf

That is the source and it is actually 20 to 1 my mistake, yes indeed nobody wanted to work with the paupers in the CS during the boom, what nonsense. and this was when we had near full employment.

DidierMc

Count Dooku wrote: »

True
They will only report to law enforcement agencies. Without them gardai and judges would be blind

Junior civil servants are not rats and spies for the government. They do an essential job to keep society ticking over.

Count Dooku

stevoman wrote: »

Have you figures to back that up, as i was working in some of the exam halls and i seen A LOT of empty desks, so id be interested to see you the figures for this.

http://www.publicjobs.ie/publicjobs/downloads/an_report2005.pdf
page 59

Civil Service
• Clerical (including term time) 22,802 1,191 1,910
• Administrative 19,584 683 395
• Senior Management & Professional 7,659 1,175 351
TOTAL 50,045 3,049 2,656

11 per position in CS and 50 per position in Administrative

DidierMc

zootroid wrote: »

I think it's fair to say at this stage I hate every workers union that exists. They interfere too much with the labour market. Given the level of protection workers enjoy these days through employment laws, I'm not sure they are necessary in this day and age.

I'm not sure you're necessary. Can we get rid of you?

problemchimp

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Don't give me that.

There are problems in the public service (although not as many as some commentators would have you believe). They are the result of many things, including mistakes at management level. But the problems can also be laid at the foot of employees at service delivery level, whether as individuals, small groups working as cliques, or larger groups operating via trade unions. And some problems can be blamed on politicians as the bosses of the public service and making bad decisions for political advantage, and other problems are attributable to politicians "making representations" or otherwise interfering with administration. And users of public services can contribute to problems, doing the very Irish thing of messing up arrangements either intentionally or through unfocused contrariness.

The truth is that life happens, and there will always be problems in the public service. The task is to reduce them and cope with them.

are you for real? Do you really think the fault lies with low level employees being"contrary"? count up how much money was wasted on e voting machines, de centralisation, the p. pars wages system( not sure if I spelt this correctly) and so much money spent on consultants and advisors. billions of euro I would say. yes life happens but what I am saying is people should focus on who caused the real problems and not on Joe Duffy type headlines. I'm not accusing you of the latter by the way.

Count Dooku

DidierMc wrote: »

Junior civil servants are not rats and spies for the government. They do an essential job to keep society ticking over.

The same as gardai and army – do everything to protect ruling class

GoldenTickets

ei.sdraob wrote: »

yeh and now the Unions are bullying the people of this country

people who are in many cases much worse of that the crowd the unions are protecting

they are nothing more than an organized racket, and should be dealt with as criminals for causing public damage

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

Change the record bud.