When will pay start to be docked?

whippet

Minister Martin has made a comment in relation to the Passport Office debacle:

'There is a difference between work-to-rule and carrying out core duties[/B][/I]

So when will pay start to be deducted?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0322/pay1.html

IrishTonyO

The sooner the better, see how long anyone in the private sector would last if they refused to do their duties

dekbhoy

IrishTonyO wrote: »

The sooner the better, see how long anyone in the private sector would last if they refused to do their duties

why you keep spouting this garbage, its not the private sector , the people who joined the public service did so on the basis they could not be sacked and that they would be entitled to a pension (defined benefit ) on retirement. Not many people joined on big money either , wages were never great.Unfortunately the government is the problem but the public are taking it out on the workers

ei.sdraob

dekbhoy wrote: »

why you keep spouting this garbage, its not the private sector , the people who joined the public service did so on the basis they could not be sacked and that they would be entitled to a pension (defined benefit ) on retirement. Not many people joined on big money either , wages were never great.Unfortunately the government is the problem but the public are taking it out on the workers

wages are still 20-30% above private sector

go cry us a river

danbohan

dekbhoy wrote: »

why you keep spouting this garbage, its not the private sector , the people who joined the public service did so on the basis they could not be sacked and that they would be entitled to a pension (defined benefit ) on retirement. Not many people joined on big money either , wages were never great.Unfortunately the government is the problem but the public are taking it out on the workers

why can they not be sacked ?, sack them and sack them now , let the rest go on strike and when they are on the streets deal with them then , the public service needs to be taught a lesson and now is the time to do so

JonathanAnon

dekbhoy wrote: »

Unfortunately the government is the problem but the public are taking it out on the workers

If they are not happy with the pay, then get another job. The job that they hold in our society is worth less this year than it was three years ago, as with every other job in the private sector. It's not written anywhere that they cannot be fired (though is usually implied, unless they murder a co-worker), or that their pay cannot be reduced. But it's time the government stopped treating them with kid gloves, and started firing a few people. We can afford this rubbish anymore.

I feel sorry for anybody who has got their wages cut or lost their job, but this sort of action (which hurts other people who have had their wages cut or lost jobs) is just wrong. Also, I do think that there should have been an onus placed on the banks to renegotiate with public servants who have had their wages cut so that they can still afford their mortgages, albeit over a longer term.

samsemtex

dekbhoy wrote: »

why you keep spouting this garbage, its not the private sector , the people who joined the public service did so on the basis they could not be sacked and that they would be entitled to a pension (defined benefit ) on retirement. Not many people joined on big money either , wages were never great.Unfortunately the government is the problem but the public are taking it out on the workers

Oh will you go away. Who cares that it is not the private sector? They are not doing their job. In any other profession they would be fired for not doing what they were hired to do. They should be sacked instantly as far as I'm concerned. they are Public SERVANTS. Their core role is to serve the public. They are not doing this and their pay should be docked.

I would love to see a load of them sacked. As far as i'm concerned 100% job security means you should get lower wages. They actually make me sick the way they carry on.

FlutterinBantam

Hmmmm... this is an acid test for Teflon Micháel Mairtín

Up to now he has been knee deep in 'motherhood and apple pie' issues

The Goal peoples kidnapping, the visit to Gaza, the Bolivian shoot out etc etc.

He came out smelling of roses every time.

Now here is a nice sour festering situation involving Irish people on home ground,which can't be solved by monetary easing.


Let's see how you front up on this one Mick:D

kippy

Indeed, people who dont do the job they were hired to do should be treated with whatever industrial relations tools which are outlined in their employment contract.
Theres very little been mentioned about the 600 or so upper level public servants who got their pay cuts reversed (I believe the number could be higher than this), for me, personally, this is what galls me.
I'll take pay cuts etc and have no problem taking a few more, however when I see certain people get these things reversed my blood boils.

bamboozle

whippet wrote: »

Minister Martin has made a comment in relation to the Passport Office debacle:

'There is a difference between work-to-rule and carrying out core duties[/B][/I]

So when will pay start to be deducted?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0322/pay1.html

strong sentiment from the government finally, i just wish they'd call the bluff of the unions and force the into an all out strike...which would last no longer than 2 or so days as the unions do not have the reserves to pay their members while on strike.

IrishTonyO

dekbhoy wrote: »

why you keep spouting this garbage, its not the private sector , the people who joined the public service did so on the basis they could not be sacked and that they would be entitled to a pension (defined benefit ) on retirement. Not many people joined on big money either , wages were never great.Unfortunately the government is the problem but the public are taking it out on the workers

Things and times change, they have changed in all other sectors now time for the public sector to do the jobs they are paid to do. Plus the government and ultimate the public, being the employers can change the terms and conditions. If they aren't happy with the new terms and conditions go get another job, simple.
Plus if the measures taken don't get us out this crisis then bring in the IMF or some other body and see how much they will care for people not doing the jobs they are paid to do.

pah

Christ this is horse sh1t. Govt need to pull an Aer Lingus on the passport workers. If I stopped working like that Management would have my ass.

Brother in Law living in the UK has his passport in for renewal 4 weeks ago - still waiting. They had no problem cashing his cheque though :rolleyes:

IrishTonyO

Department of Foreign affairs have sent a letter to all staff telling them they will not be paid in future if they do not do their duties. Even if they do other duties at the same time. Alleluia, about time

FlutterinBantam

Meeehawl needs to grow a set of clockweights.

Anyone contravening the work to rule should be disciplined


Works both ways.

bamboozle

dekbhoy wrote: »

why you keep spouting this garbage, its not the private sector , the people who joined the public service did so on the basis they could not be sacked and that they would be entitled to a pension (defined benefit ) on retirement. Not many people joined on big money either , wages were never great.Unfortunately the government is the problem but the public are taking it out on the workers

there are 2 problems, the government/state is broke and the public sector are hindering the economies attempts to get out of this recession.

IrishTonyO

it looks like the government are starting to get tougher.

The Department of Foreign Affairs has warned employees at the passport office that from today, staff who refuse to carry out any duties within their grade will not be paid, even if they are carrying out other duties.
A notice distributed this afternoon says that any period when they refuse to carry out their duties can be considered to be a period of unauthorised absence for which they will not be paid.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0322/pay1.html

FlutterinBantam

They need to get tougher than that.

That response is a load of bulldust.


Anyone not performing as per the regs. should be SUSPENDED.

Has Mairtín the clackers to do that?? There's the nub of the issue.


Doubt it.

IrishTonyO

Honestly who do these guys think they are. the head of the union warned the government not to take disciplinary action against his members!!! If you don't do your job, you should be sacked, simple. The only people they are hurting are the public who now are getting fed up of it.

Blair Horan, head of the Civil and Public Servants Union, has warned the Government not to threaten his members with disciplinary action following the disturbances which arose at the Passport Office last week because of their industrial action.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0322/pay1.html

FlutterinBantam

These people get far too much credence.

You have people with minimal education, locking horns with elected Govt. ministers, telling them, and by default ,us, how things should be run and paid for.

These people should be given a shoe in the plums by the Govt on behalf of the electorate, and i make no apology for that rather inappropriate language.

We , the taxpayers, are being held to ransom by these people, who have nothing to risk, nothing to lose.

Like a punter betting on a race and if the horse loses he doesn't lose his/her bet, but if he/she wins they collect!!

Time these people took a risk, sue them

Sir Oxman

kippy wrote: »

Indeed, people who dont do the job they were hired to do should be treated with whatever industrial relations tools which are outlined in their employment contract.
Theres very little been mentioned about the 600 or so upper level public servants who got their pay cuts reversed (I believe the number could be higher than this), for me, personally, this is what galls me.
I'll take pay cuts etc and have no problem taking a few more, however when I see certain people get these things reversed my blood boils.

I agree with that point totally.

ParkRunner

whippet wrote: »

Minister Martin has made a comment in relation to the Passport Office debacle:

'There is a difference between work-to-rule and carrying out core duties[/B][/I]

So when will pay start to be deducted?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0322/pay1.html

Also from that statement:

The Passport Service is normally one of the most efficient and well-run public services in this country. It enjoys a huge amount of trust and respect from the public. Every year the service provides up to 600,000 passports to Irish citizens throughout the 32 counties of Ireland and the rest of world. It operates a 24 hour, 365 day a week emergency service. It has been measured favourably against passport services in a number of European countries.

It is only when the service is slightly disrupted and starts to affect politicians that the hard work that is normally carried out by staff in the passport office is recognised. It will be interesting to see how this progresses though, with agreement within reach, the passport office will hopefully be back to normal next week.

whippet

EF wrote: »

Also from that statement:



It is only when the service is slightly disrupted and starts to affect politicians that the hard work that is normally carried out by staff in the passport office is recognised. It will be interesting to see how this progresses though, with agreement within reach, the passport office will hopefully be back to normal next week.

That is how to spin union style !!!!!

Fair play to them for doing their job properly, this isn't the argument.

What do they want, an oscar style cermony to give them a massive pat on the back for doing their job.

In the private sector if you do your job properly you get to keep your job.

The situation now is that they are refusing to do their jobs, hence the call for pay to be docked.

Currently there is a backlog of 40000 applications which Mr Horan has accepted is due to the industrial action - therefore they are not doing their core duties.

20 days turn around for a passport is not acceptable and therefore the under performing staff should be suspended / sacked or have their pay docked.

There is some form of talks between unions and the government, but despite claims before the start of industrial action that they wouldn't take action should there be dialogue. Now that there is dialogue they still feel entitled to disrupt the public.

The age of disrupting the public and looking for support from the people you are causing problems for are well and truely over.

I am sure that if a family member of one of the Passport office staff needed a passport quickly they wouldn't be subject to the ransoms that the rest of us would be.

pah

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

These people get far too much credence.

You have people with minimal education, locking horns with elected Govt. ministers, telling them, and by default ,us, how things should be run and paid for.

These people should be given a shoe in the plums by the Govt on behalf of the electorate, and i make no apology for that rather inappropriate language.

We , the taxpayers, are being held to ransom by these people, who have nothing to risk, nothing to lose.

Like a punter betting on a race and if the horse loses he doesn't lose his/her bet, but if he/she wins they collect!!

Time these people took a risk, sue them

While I agree with your sentiment I don't believe the issue of education should matter when they "lock horns" as you say. I could point out a handful of elected Govt Ministers that may be well educated but are thicker than your standard 2x4

ParkRunner

whippet wrote: »

In the private sector if you do your job properly you get to keep your job.

The situation now is that they are refusing to do their jobs, hence the call for pay to be docked.

.

You get to keep your job in the private sector if you do your job properly? Doesn't seem to be the case as far as I can see it but that's a separate issue.

Part of the problem is that for the passport service to operate efficiently, workers had to work overtime, which they did no problem up until recently. It is only now that core duties are being done in normal working hours that a backlog has emerged.

IrishTonyO

EF wrote: »

You get to keep your job in the private sector if you do your job properly? Doesn't seem to be the case as far as I can see it but that's a separate issue.

Part of the problem is that for the passport service to operate efficiently, workers had to work overtime, which they did no problem up until recently. It is only now that core duties are being done in normal working hours that a backlog has emerged.

Not really closing the office to the public is not doing their core duties

hallelujajordan

I just don't understand the public sector unions ! When are they going to realise that industrial action can only ever succeed if it has the support of the people. . . ? Every time Blair Horan goes on TV, government support against the public sector is galvanised even further. Such support was plain to see in the passport office last week.

It was because of the ineptitude of the unions and the strength of public opinion against them that the government have been able to take such a strong stance against them and they will continue to do so.

I'm not, but if I were a public sector employee I would take strong exception to having my union dues going towards the wages of people like Horan and O'Connor. . .

whippet

EF wrote: »

Part of the problem is that for the passport service to operate efficiently, workers had to work overtime, which they did no problem up until recently.

which they got handsomely paid for.

I work mad hours outside of office hours to provide an exceptional level of service to our customers and don't get a penny extra in my wage. Why do I do it ? to ensure that the company I work for has a competitive valid business and can afford to keep me employed.

ParkRunner

whippet wrote: »

which they got handsomely paid for.

I work mad hours outside of office hours to provide an exceptional level of service to our customers and don't get a penny extra in my wage. Why do I do it ? to ensure that the company I work for has a competitive valid business and can afford to keep me employed.

Fair play to you. A core working day of 8am - 8pm (during which no overtime would be paid) could have been in place already and may very well be shortly if a deal is struck between the unions and the goverment. There would be no need for any disruption to the issuing of passports had the government being willing to at least negotiate in confidence its employees terms and conditions rather than doing what they did.

Sir Oxman

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

These people get far too much credence.

You have people with minimal education, locking horns with elected Govt. ministers, telling them, and by default ,us, how things should be run and paid for.

These people should be given a shoe in the plums by the Govt on behalf of the electorate, and i make no apology for that rather inappropriate language.

We , the taxpayers, are being held to ransom by these people, who have nothing to risk, nothing to lose.

Like a punter betting on a race and if the horse loses he doesn't lose his/her bet, but if he/she wins they collect!!

Time these people took a risk, sue them

These people = the golden circle of FF/Bankers/Regulators/Quango/Property developers

People losing sight of that will have them breaking their holes laughing at the masses. Again.

IrishTonyO

gambiaman wrote: »

These people = the golden circle of FF/Bankers/Regulators/Quango/Property developers

People losing sight of that will have them breaking their holes laughing at the masses. Again.

wrong thread mate this is about the passport office

pah

gambiaman wrote: »

These people = the golden circle of FF/Bankers/Regulators/Quango/Property developers

People losing sight of that will have them breaking their holes laughing at the masses. Again.

WTF?

Stinicker

Anyone know the salaries of the uncooperative workers in the Passport office? I think the law just needs to be changed and sack striking public sector workers and replace them with the masses of unemployed people. I can bet for every passport office worker you could find 100+ unemployed people willing to fill the job on lower pay and conditions.

In the 1981 Air traffic controllers strike Ronald Regan gave the striking workers 2 days to return to work or else they were forfeiting their jobs. The Unions held tough and two days later Reagan fired over 11,000 air traffic controllers and banned them from federal service (Public service jobs) for life.

I wish we our political leaders would grow a pair like Thatcher and Reagan had in the 80's. Laws should be changed to make Union membership a sackable offense and crush the public sector and its unions.

Sir Oxman

IrishTonyO wrote: »

wrong thread mate this is about the passport office

It's about more than the Passport Office IMO

Look at the public outrage displayed in public over this, amazing isn't it?
Where was that level of outrage when our leaders decided to pump billions into the banks, to socialise private debt, decided to hold the inquiry into the corruption and non-regulation that got us into this hole in the first place, in private?

Where is the outrage and protest at a govt that is going to waste billions in an attempt to keep property prices artificially high?

It's very telling about the Irish psyche.

SpodoKamodo

gambiaman wrote: »

These people = the golden circle of FF/Bankers/Regulators/Quango/Property developers

People losing sight of that will have them breaking their holes laughing at the masses. Again.

And I suppose these are the people being affected by this work to rule.:rolleyes:

Sir Oxman

SpodoKamodo wrote: »

And I suppose these are the people being affected by this work to rule.:rolleyes:

No, these are the people who are laughing at you, me and every other worker in this country.

My point being, passport not being processed = first glimmer of public outrage
The whole country being taken for a ride = not a blip from joe public.

IrishTonyO

gambiaman wrote: »

It's about more than the Passport Office IMO

Look at the public outrage displayed in public over this, amazing isn't it?
Where was that level of outrage when our leaders decided to pump billions into the banks, to socialise private debt, decided to hold the inquiry into the corruption and non-regulation that got us into this hole in the first place, in private?

Where is the outrage and protest at a govt that is going to waste billions in an attempt to keep property prices artificially high?

It's very telling about the Irish psyche.

Thats why there are different threads on boards.ie, this one is about the passport office

JonathanAnon

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I just don't understand the public sector unions ! When are they going to realise that industrial action can only ever succeed if it has the support of the people. . . ? Every time Blair Horan goes on TV, government support against the public sector is galvanised even further. Such support was plain to see in the passport office last week.

I heard one of the CPSU representatives on Saturday, think it was on the 1pm Radio One Show. I couldnt believe how petty they are ... He was saying (Paraphrased) "the Government uncerimoniously kicked the unions out of government buildings last year, and this is the result. And we were prepared to offer reforms .... etc etc"... Seems like the only reason that they are doing this is as revenge for having their own pride damaged.

If the Civil Service Unions want to hurt the government, why dont their Revenue members stop processing incoming (only) VAT returns? This would hit the Department Of Finance and not hit the average taxpayer.

Sir Oxman

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Thats why there are different threads on boards.ie, this one is about the passport office

So, no-one can extrapolate from one issue.
I'll let a mod decide that one. Thanks.

Liam Byrne

I'd suggest that pay should be docked around the same time as the pay of former Taoisigh who are swanning off around the world and therefore not doing their jobs either.

As usual, this Government has no moral authority because of its selective application of rules and ethics.

SpodoKamodo

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'd suggest that pay should be docked around the same time as the pay of former Taoisigh who are swanning off around the world and therefore not doing their jobs either.

As usual, this Government has no moral authority because of its selective application of rules and ethics.

sounds remarkably like another group on molesworth st...

Triangle

First lets get this out of the way as it means alot to some people - I'm a private sector employee.

I think the pay cuts HAD to be made, I feel for the Public sector, but I also feel for the private sector workers who have been made unemployed.
I think the Unions have done an extremly bad job in this though. They have made it a 'Get the pay back' issue and over looked the issue where the big boys made everyone but them take a large cut.

They should be using the anger in Ireland to take out the government and put someone who has some morals in place instead (I'm still at a loss as to whom this would be). Instead they are making this a three front battle with the three sides being the government, the public sector and the private sector. Most Public and private (I presume/hope) want a better, morally adjusted government.

As soon as someone stands up for ALL the Irish people, I'll be joining them on the street. Until then i'll just be a bitter irish citizen

Liam Byrne

SpodoKamodo wrote: »

sounds remarkably like another group on molesworth st...

Where's Molesworth St and who's there ?

thebman

gambiaman wrote: »

No, these are the people who are laughing at you, me and every other worker in this country.

My point being, passport not being processed = first glimmer of public outrage
The whole country being taken for a ride = not a blip from joe public.

Your heads in the sand if you believe this post.

You really think there has not been a blip from the public about the golden circle and Sean Fitzpatrick. Tip #1, turn on your TV.

Sir Oxman

Triangle wrote: »

First lets get this out of the way as it means alot to some people - I'm a private sector employee.

I think the pay cuts HAD to be made, I feel for the Public sector, but I also feel for the private sector workers who have been made unemployed.
I think the Unions have done an extremly bad job in this though. They have made it a 'Get the pay back' issue and over looked the issue where the big boys made everyone but them take a large cut.

They should be using the anger in Ireland to take out the government and put someone who has some morals in place instead (I'm still at a loss as to whom this would be). Instead they are making this a three front battle with the three sides being the government, the public sector and the private sector. Most Public and private (I presume/hope) want a better, morally adjusted government.

As soon as someone stands up for ALL the Irish people, I'll be joining them on the street. Until then i'll just be a bitter irish citizen

I agree - the PS Unions can go a long way towards taking this cowboy Govt down.
The only thing I'm afraid of is that if Labour form part of the next Govt, will they have the *balls to facedown the same unions - reform and cuts have to be made to the public service and pay bill.


*This doesn't infer that FF/Greens have liathroidi

ParkRunner

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Where's Molesworth St and who's there ?

Facepalm

Sir Oxman

thebman wrote: »

Your heads in the sand if you believe this post.

You really think there has not been a blip from the public about the golden circle and Sean Fitzpatrick. Tip #1, turn on your TV.

thebman, where are the protests? Plenty of complaining on here and I complain a lot but where were the mass protests when NAMA was being railroaded? I went down town for one of the NAMA protests last year and there were but a hundred people bothered.

I fear it's a case of disrupt my holiday, feel the wrath.
Ruin any prospect for me or my children for decades, not a bother.

Liam Byrne

EF wrote: »

Facepalm

What ? Why ?

This is all I could find that had any reference to Ireland, and it doesn't list anyone of note there, unless the Freemasons ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molesworth_Street,_Dublin

JonathanAnon

Liam Byrne wrote: »

What ? Why ? This is all I could find that had any reference to Ireland, and it doesn't list anyone of note there, unless the Freemasons ?]

It's where the passport office is Liam, been pretty much all over the news today. I wouldnt have necessarily known it either, if I hadnt heard Joe Duffy.

Liam Byrne

JonathanAnon wrote: »

It's where the passport office is Liam, been pretty much all over the news today. I wouldnt have necessarily known it either, if I hadnt heard Joe Duffy.

Thanks, JA ....that explains it, because (a) I'd associate the passport office with Cork and (b) I wouldn't listen to Duffy in a fit.

irishh_bob

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Hmmmm... this is an acid test for Teflon Micháel Mairtín

Up to now he has been knee deep in 'motherhood and apple pie' issues

The Goal peoples kidnapping, the visit to Gaza, the Bolivian shoot out etc etc.

He came out smelling of roses every time.

Now here is a nice sour festering situation involving Irish people on home ground,which can't be solved by monetary easing.


Let's see how you front up on this one Mick:D

+1 , martin is the definition of someone who talks the talk

irishh_bob

JonathanAnon wrote: »

I heard one of the CPSU representatives on Saturday, think it was on the 1pm Radio One Show. I couldnt believe how petty they are ... He was saying (Paraphrased) "the Government uncerimoniously kicked the unions out of government buildings last year, and this is the result. And we were prepared to offer reforms .... etc etc"... Seems like the only reason that they are doing this is as revenge for having their own pride damaged.

If the Civil Service Unions want to hurt the government, why dont their Revenue members stop processing incoming (only) VAT returns? This would hit the Department Of Finance and not hit the average taxpayer.

for the unions , its about much more than pay cuts of clerical officers , they are in a broader war , right throughout the aherne years , the unions in this country had constant access to the levers of power and had huge influence on policy descision , thier demotion has cause outrage within union ranks