Mod split from "Gardaí alienating Public"

tallaght01

I'm sure this view won't receive any sympathy here, but the opinions expressed in that article are how a lot of people view the polis.

It's all about a proportionate response. I hate the indo, and I suspect the author is a tool, but leaving a woman and a teenager on the side of a motorway with no footpath is pretty lame.

Meanwhile, my estate at home is being overrun by skangers who don't get touched. And people don't co-operate with the gardai because of their attitude to the public in many cases.

I got stopped by a cop here in Aus recently for a minor traffic offense. The guy dealing with me and his partner were totally sound (It was an admin error in the tax office, and I got my ticket rescinded). But even before they knew that, they were really cool.

So the convo involved me saying "listen you're doing your job. No drama. etc etc" when they explained what was happening.

In Ireland, my overwhelming experience is of up-front rudeness, which results in people being lippy back.

I think if the gardai were decent to people, then people would co-operate a lot more and wouldn't give them such crap. I think attitude is a huge issue in the force these days. It's the one profession where I've been consistently on the receiving end of sheer rudeness in almost every encounter I've had with them, which is really sad.

hunnymonster

There is a lot of truth in what tallaght01 says. ttbomk I've never done anything illegal but every time I'm stopped at a checkpoint or have any dealings with AGS I feel intimidated because the person stands far too close, speaks loudly and rudely etc. I'm a tiny middle aged woman so it's not even as I look like a threat in any way.

It couldn't be more different to my experiences of police forces in other countries where courtesy is much more evident.

Funnily enough, there is a very stark change in behaviour when I'm with H2B and he is in uniform (a different branch of ES) AGS are much more civil then.

Of course I'm generalising, I'm one person and probably only talking about less than 100 instances in my lifetime but still, it's very uncomfortable.

eightyfish

Why did she feel it important to point out that the guy who was stopped for similar reasons on Traffic Blues, and dropped home, was a non-national?

This is not journalism. The newspaper is not for personal gripes with public services. That's what Joe Duffy is for. She broke the law by not paying tax like everybody else does. Everything else is irrelevant.

tallaght01

eightyfish wrote: »

She broke the law by not paying tax like everybody else does. Everything else is irrelevant.

I don't reall want to get drawn into an argument here. But, out of curiosity:

1) Are you a cop?

2) Do you think you should be allowed do whatever you want to someone, and act any way you like, if they break a law. I'm just respoding to the highlighted bit above.

eightyfish

tallaght01 wrote: »

Do you think you should be allowed do whatever you want to someone, and act any way you like, if they break a law.

No. Actually, I was going to write "the fact that her passenger was representing Ireland is irrelevant" but I didn't in the end. I don't think she was mistreated. Maybe she didn't get the most helpful Garda. But even if she was, using her privileged position as a journalist to bitch about it in a national newspaper, albeit the Sunday Rag, is inappropriate.

MagicSean

tallaght01 wrote: »

I do't reall want to get drawn into an argument here. But, out of curiosity:

1) Are you a cop?

2) Do you think you should be allowed do whatever you want to someone, and act any way you like, if they break a law. I'm just respoding to the highlighted bit above.

I would say he's referring to her bit about travelling to the airport and having to walk up the road. You obviously had a bad experience with a garda which is unfortunate. You expect the Gardaí to cut down on "skangers" but then get surprised when you get treated the same way. The law is equal and there are no laws which allow for skangers to be treated more harshly than others.]

I might also add that Gardaí are not supposed to give people a lift anywhere if they are not under arrest. They aren't a taxi service.

tallaght01

k_mac wrote: »

I would say he's referring to her bit about travelling to the airport and having to walk up the road. You obviously had a bad experience with a garda which is unfortunate. You expect the Gardaí to cut down on "skangers" but then get surprised when you get treated the same way. The law is equal and there are no laws which allow for skangers to be treated more harshly than others.

I think that's a pretty big misrepresentation of what I said, and of what he said. But if you think that everyone should be treated as a criminal because there are criminals around, then there's not much i can say to that. Doesn't surprise me, though, sadly.

Odysseus

I wasn't going to post on this thread but I have been keeping an eye on it, Tallaght and Hunnymonster's post changed my mind.

Firstly the reporter was wrong lets get that out of the way.

I encounter the Garda a bit through my work, always very polite.

I find the attitude at checkpoints different though. The last one was I was riding ionto my partners estate and the was a check point. I was stopped and asked for my licence, now I'm on a bike, so its gloves off open one jacket, then another to get to the inside pocket. I ride in all weather so I need to keep it dry. The attitute was come on, come on.

Just as I handed over another member come over and barks that he wants my keys to look in my top box. Far enough, I turned the engine off, took out the keys, put the stand on and was getting off to open it, and "I got what are you doing? I asked for the keys". I'm a psychoanalyst I know when someone is being smart with me, it can be had to get it accross when typing.

I told the member I was complying with his request and opening the top box, [no reason given why the wanted to look and I would normally ask but I was stopped outside a clients house who had recently made threats towards me in the course of my work; so I didn't want to hang about] I opened the box and he seen my briefcase, so he asked what I do for a living. When I told him and he noted we shared a lot of clients, the change in attitude was amazing. Why could he not be like that from the start, you can be polite and still hold a position where you are in command. Anyway a minor example of rudeness, but I see it a lot.

I have a lot of respect for members, but when I encounter rudeness it takes away from it a bit. I must note that it was unusal for a check point to be where it was that night, so I suspect a serious crime may have been prevented, I'm a big boy and can handle a bit of attitude but really is their a need for it.

MagicSean

tallaght01 wrote: »

I think that's a pretty big misrepresentation of what I said, and of what he said. But if you think that everyone should be treated as a criminal because there are criminals around, then there's not much i can say to that. Doesn't surprise me, though, sadly.

No need to get upset. Don't think I said that but you believe what you want.

eightyfish

Odysseus wrote: »

I'm a psychoanalyst I know when someone is being smart with me

That's my quote of the day.

MagicSean

Odysseus wrote: »

I wasn't going to post on this thread but I have been keeping an eye on it, Tallaght and Hunnymonster's post changed my mind.

Firstly the reporter was wrong lets get that out of the way.

I encounter the Garda a bit through my work, always very polite.

I find the attitude at checkpoints different though. The last one was I was riding ionto my partners estate and the was a check point. I was stopped and asked for my licence, now I'm on a bike, so its gloves off open one jacket, then another to get to the inside pocket. I ride in all weather so I need to keep it dry. The attitute was come on, come on.

Just as I handed over another member come over and barks that he wants my keys to look in my top box. Far enough, I turned the engine off, took out the keys, put the stand on and was getting off to open it, and "I got what are you doing? I asked for the keys". I'm a psychoanalyst I know when someone is being smart with me, it can be had to get it accross when typing.

I told the member I was complying with his request and opening the top box, [no reason given why the wanted to look and I would normally ask but I was stopped outside a clients house who had recently made threats towards me in the course of my work; so I didn't want to hang about] I opened the box and he seen my briefcase, so he asked what I do for a living. When I told him and he noted we shared a lot of clients, the change in attitude was amazing. Why could he not be like that from the start, you can be polite and still hold a position where you are in command. Anyway a minor example of rudeness, but I see it a lot.

I have a lot of respect for members, but when I encounter rudeness it takes away from it a bit. I must note that it was unusal for a check point to be where it was that night, so I suspect a serious crime may have been prevented, I'm a big boy and can handle a bit of attitude but really is their a need for it.

Yes unfortunately there can be a need for it. There are reasons for Gardaí to act aggressively. I've seen it myself. They appear aggressive at first so as to have the upper hand in any situation and when they figure out what they are dealing with they adjust their attitude accordingly. Its not aggression as such. Its more like apathy and caution I think. Not rudeness, more directness. Of course there will be those that are going to be rude. Same in every job.

tallaght01

tallaght01 wrote: »

I'm sure this view won't receive any sympathy here, but the opinions expressed in that article are how a lot of people view the polis.

It's all about a proportionate response. I hate the indo, and I suspect the author is a tool, but leaving a woman and a teenager on the side of a motorway with no footpath is pretty lame.

I'll just highlight my previous post for you again.

foreign wrote: »

Now if I remember correctly if this is where she got stopped then there is a side road that runs along the triple carriage way at this section of road. More than safe enough for walking along. Speed limit is I think 60kph or 80kph at most.

Sour grapes in my opinion.

http://www.louisfitzgeraldhotel.com/map_directions.html

tallaght01 wrote: »

Meanwhile, my estate at home is being overrun by skangers who don't get touched. And people don't co-operate with the gardai because of their attitude to the public in many cases.

I got stopped by a cop here in Aus recently for a minor traffic offense. The guy dealing with me and his partner were totally sound (It was an admin error in the tax office, and I got my ticket rescinded). But even before they knew that, they were really cool.

So the convo involved me saying "listen you're doing your job. No drama. etc etc" when they explained what was happening.

In Ireland, my overwhelming experience is of up-front rudeness, which results in people being lippy back.

I think if the gardai were decent to people, then people would co-operate a lot more and wouldn't give them such crap. I think attitude is a huge issue in the force these days. It's the one profession where I've been consistently on the receiving end of sheer rudeness in almost every encounter I've had with them, which is really sad.

It's not an offence to be a skanger.

Not having a go at you but do you have any attitude when being stopped? That could account for some attitude back. And yes some gards are muppets who are rude from the off but not all of us are.

Someone was mentioning about being stopped at checkpoints and the gards standing right over them or up close. They are checking for signs of alcohol consumption, slurred speece, pupils and obviously smell. Hard to do this from 3 / 4 feet away.

Odysseus

k_mac wrote: »

Yes unfortunately there can be a need for it. There are reasons for Gardaí to act aggressively. I've seen it myself. They appear aggressive at first so as to have the upper hand in any situation and when they figure out what they are dealing with they adjust their attitude accordingly. Its not aggression as such. Its more like apathy and caution I think. Not rudeness, more directness. Of course there will be those that are going to be rude. Same in every job.

I have to be pretty direct in my line of work sometimes too, with some of the same people you guys deal with. There is a big difference between controlling a situtation and just being rude and aggressive, I often encounter the latter. My tone of voice, attitude, removing my helmet in order to speak all clearly showed I was willing to comply with any lawful request, the person in particular was just a cnut with an attitude, but you get them everwhere.

Most of my work is around understanding the communication between me and the person I speaking with I'm a psychotherapist, so I can safely say it was past the line of being direct. At the end of the day I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. However, this went beyond being in control and assertive, of course I always acknowledge here that you can't tar a whole force on members like that.

Odysseus

foreign wrote: »

And yes some gards are muppets who are rude from the off but not all of us are.

I really think this is the crux of the matter, I don't think most of the posters here are Garda bashing, and I know I'm not. I think the above needs to be acknowkledged, some are like that, a lot hopefully most are not.

tallaght01

foreign wrote: »

It's not an offence to be a skanger.

Not having a go at you but do you have any attitude when being stopped? That could account for some attitude back. And yes some gards are muppets who are rude from the off but not all of us are.

Someone was mentioning about being stopped at checkpoints and the gards standing right over them or up close. They are checking for signs of alcohol consumption, slurred speece, pupils and obviously smell. Hard to do this from 3 / 4 feet away.

Well, I sure as hell don't get into people's faces when I'm working out if they're locked, professionally.

I didn't want to get into it, but I hate this attitude that I must have had an attitude. I have nothing against anyone who's been good to me. I'd say I have a bit of an attitude now. But here's some examples of why:

1) As a 17 year old schoolkid walking home from the bus in my uniform getting randomly searched in tallaght. Never had any problem with the law. The two cops squared up to me, trying to be the big men and kept saying "come on son, just tell us where the drugs are. Stop wasting our time". When they searched me, they literally threw me bag back at me and said "right, get out of here, ad don't be causing trouble".

2) Stopped in a car driving home. Had driven out of a mate's gaff, and maybe 100 yards later got pulled over. "so, how much have you been drinking". I said I hadn't drunk anything, ad the guy chuckled. Really rude bloke. Treating me like I was a crim.

3) Standing outside my house as a teenager talking to ONE mate when I'd just got me place at uni. Few handshakes, some good banter. The community cops just walked up to us and told us to clear off home. I walked into my garden, and then he bollocked me for being smart.

None of this is stuff that made me cry myself to sleep. And I could give plenty more examples. But it's all just not needed. Now, I wouldn't go out of my way to help the police. You should speak to young males in Tallaght about their attitudes to the police. I have very little trust in the service. I've nothing against police per se. I lived in the UK for many years, and had a lot of interaction with the police professionally, and only ever had one bad experience. Same with Oz, I've worked in child protection here, and they're great guys.

Maybe it's my attitude. But I don't think it is. I don't have problems with cops anywhere else, and I've never seen so many relatives and friends have so many bad things to say about another single group of workers, which is sad.

hunnymonster

foreign wrote: »

Someone was mentioning about being stopped at checkpoints and the gards standing right over them or up close. They are checking for signs of alcohol consumption, slurred speece, pupils and obviously smell. Hard to do this from 3 / 4 feet away.

so the approach is guilty until proven innocent, treated rudely until proven friend,.... mmm, doesn't happen in any other country I've lived in and I really can't see why it is necessary. If a member stopped me, said (s)he was checking for drink driving and would I mind if he leaned in closer then great, I would not have a problem, the situation was communicated to me, What was going to happen was explained. Pushing his face in front of me quite violently and suddenly is not appropriate imo.

I totally agree with the point that some members are rude and it's not fair to extrapolate that all are. It's equally valid to point out that of the approx 100 members I've met I can only remember twice (when I was on my own) that the member was not rude or did not intimidate me. Straw poll yes, but when experiences reach triple figures, there is certainly some validity to them.

It's interesting to note, that if this came up in relation to almost any other profession there would be at least one voice asking "what can we do to improve the public perception of us", never happens with AGS (at least not at ordinary members level, maybe in the Phoenix park someone looks at the public image issue).

MagicSean

hunnymonster wrote: »

It's interesting to note, that if this came up in relation to almost any other profession there would be at least one voice asking "what can we do to improve the public perception of us", never happens with AGS (at least not at ordinary members level, maybe in the Phoenix park someone looks at the public image issue).

Yes it does. All the time.

Odysseus

k_mac wrote: »

Yes it does. All the time.

Personally I'm glad to hear that, what's your personal thoughts on it though [if you can answer that here] Is it taken seriously or just given lip service? I ask as that question could be applied to any job really.

I deal with some of the individuals you deal with, of course you get more serious ones that I do. I work in the addiction services in Tallaght's home town. At the end of the day you have to deal will some very serious people who have no respect for you or the role you play in society. So I just wondering when you said the above how much is put into it, or is it a case or look he have a tough job to do here [which you do] if a few people get offended tough.

Often enough your personal safety is put at risk, now I can walk around Tallaght and I know a lot of the serious criminals, and the local cops would know more and have better info on them. They would also know the lesser ones, the wannbes and the upcoming ones. My point being I can often pick out the ones I don't know, maybe I just have a good radar.

So I suppose what I'm leading up too is that I imagine most of you have a good sense of the person when you stop them. As I noted above I understand you need to take control of the situation from the start, fair enough I wouldn't expect less. However, I personally believe there is not enough respect afforded to you guys, but it is a too way street, it has to be earned. Smart comments, aggressivity and just being plain rude prevents that. Whereas a polite and frim approach will.

MagicSean

Odysseus wrote: »

Personally I'm glad to hear that, what's your personal thoughts on it though [if you can answer that here] Is it taken seriously or just given lip service? I ask as that question could be applied to any job really.

I deal with some of the individuals you deal with, of course you get more serious ones that I do. I work in the addiction services in Tallaght's home town. At the end of the day you have to deal will some very serious people who have no respect for you or the role you play in society. So I just wondering when you said the above how much is put into it, or is it a case or look he have a tough job to do here [which you do] if a few people get offended tough.

Often enough your personal safety is put at risk, now I can walk around Tallaght and I know a lot of the serious criminals, and the local cops would know more and have better info on them. They would also know the lesser ones, the wannbes and the upcoming ones. My point being I can often pick out the ones I don't know, maybe I just have a good radar.

So I suppose what I'm leading up too is that I imagine most of you have a good sense of the person when you stop them. As I noted above I understand you need to take control of the situation from the start, fair enough I wouldn't expect less. However, I personally believe there is not enough respect afforded to you guys, but it is a too way street, it has to be earned. Smart comments, aggressivity and just being plain rude prevents that. Whereas a polite and frim approach will.

Of course it is taken seriously. Thats why it's grounds for making a complaint to the ombudsman.

Odysseus

k_mac wrote: »

Of course it is taken seriously. Thats why it's grounds for making a complaint to the ombudsman.

Well personally in the case I described I'm not going to waste my time or the ombussman's time on something like that. I was asking how much of an effort is put into it, but maybe you can't answer the particulars of that here.

Shield

Mod note: This is a series of posts that I have split out from an existing thread in the forum. Normal forum rules apply, be civil, respectful etc...

Thanks.

DrIndy

I have to agree with Oddysey in many ways in his summary of the attitude of the AGS.

I was at home one time and had my door attempted to be kicked in by a burly garda one morning when a student (it had a 3 point locking mechanism so would not budge). I was greeted by 2 detectives who only reluctantly showed me their IDs when asked. 6 gardai barged into my house looking for someone (I presumed someone who escaped from mountjoy garda station or prison) - but had the street wrong (which they could have figured out very quickly if they had even asked me). They were not apologetic afterwards for the disturbance and smashed the plastic facade of the door along the way.

I was on dame street during infamous may day in 2002 (enough said) - very and ONLY peaceably and i joined this innocently to see what was going on and would have left the scene if I could! What I saw and experienced was appalling and deeply shocking (although I personally suffered no physical harm). I had met the alleged "robocop" twice before at student demonstrations and found him to be most obnoxious person to wear a uniform (and this was before the demonstration) on the face of this earth. I in fact felt physically sick when I saw him again after starting hospital work.

But in converse - I also attended the rally a few years later where the water cannons were unleashed at the phoenix park and considered the policing by an gardai siochana to be very fair. This mostly peaceful event was ruined by a handful of anarchists who were determined to provoke the gardai before the day was up and succeeded. The garda presence was balanced and discreet (the riot squad hung back 50m down side streets mostly out of view - gardai were issued helmets, but did not wear them until **** started flying). Non muppets were entirely untouched and not unduly pressuredto disperse peacefully - I in fact ended up on RTE Radio 1 supporting the gardai for balanced action and condoning the muppets who destroyed a fun day and a good march on a good antiwar issue. (I happened to meet a radio host on the way back into town and got chatting to him).

My friends and family also describe less than positive experiences on the front line of the law. However, as a doctor - I have had only 2 encounters with rude gardai and put them both firmly in their place (I will NEVER disclose confidential medical information without the patients consent - I will only state if their life is immediately endangered or moderately harmed). At all other times, it has been polite and professional - in fact I have completed numerous medical reports within 24 hours of the garda requesting them and subsequently hand delivering them, simply because they stated they were urgent (I want violent criminals off the streets as much as anyone else does). However - I still retain my suspicion of an garda siochana from my outside life when dealing with them.

In converse - In australia - I have been randomly breath tested umpteen times. The convo is usually - "Good morning/afternoon/evening - this is a random breath test checkpoint. Have you had anything to drink today or last night? Can you show me your license and blow into this machine until it bleeps." "Thank you (sir), everything is fine and enjoy your day". Courtesy is always there on the outside as well as on professional interactions in the hospital. After its over you can have a minute of chit-chat like why they are checking at 6pm (to catch people having cheeky pints after work) and courtesy given is received with a smile.

Personally - I have an intense dislike for guns (particularily handguns) and feel very uncomfortable being in the presence of them which I find a barrier for me in interacting with australian police. But despite this - am more comfortable with openly armed ozzie than with gardai.

I do think that an garda siochana could do with a face lift in their interaction with joe public. I know a lot of very good people who are gardai on a personal basis but facet of the public face the public see is negative in my opinion.

MagicSean

DrIndy wrote: »

I have to agree with Oddysey in many ways in his summary of the attitude of the AGS.

I was at home one time and had my door attempted to be kicked in by a burly garda one morning when a student (it had a 3 point locking mechanism so would not budge). I was greeted by 2 detectives who only reluctantly showed me their IDs when asked. 6 gardai barged into my house looking for someone (I presumed someone who escaped from mountjoy garda station or prison) - but had the street wrong (which they could have figured out very quickly if they had even asked me). They were not apologetic afterwards for the disturbance and smashed the plastic facade of the door along the way.

I was on dame street during infamous may day in 2002 (enough said) - very and ONLY peaceably and i joined this innocently to see what was going on and would have left the scene if I could! What I saw and experienced was appalling and deeply shocking (although I personally suffered no physical harm). I had met the alleged "robocop" twice before at student demonstrations and found him to be most obnoxious person to wear a uniform (and this was before the demonstration) on the face of this earth. I in fact felt physically sick when I saw him again after starting hospital work.

But in converse - I also attended the rally a few years later where the water cannons were unleashed at the phoenix park and considered the policing by an gardai siochana to be very fair. This mostly peaceful event was ruined by a handful of anarchists who were determined to provoke the gardai before the day was up and succeeded. The garda presence was balanced and discreet (the riot squad hung back 50m down side streets mostly out of view - gardai were issued helmets, but did not wear them until **** started flying). Non muppets were entirely untouched and not unduly pressuredto disperse peacefully - I in fact ended up on RTE Radio 1 supporting the gardai for balanced action and condoning the muppets who destroyed a fun day and a good march on a good antiwar issue. (I happened to meet a radio host on the way back into town and got chatting to him).

My friends and family also describe less than positive experiences on the front line of the law. However, as a doctor - I have had only 2 encounters with rude gardai and put them both firmly in their place (I will NEVER disclose confidential medical information without the patients consent - I will only state if their life is immediately endangered or moderately harmed). At all other times, it has been polite and professional - in fact I have completed numerous medical reports within 24 hours of the garda requesting them and subsequently hand delivering them, simply because they stated they were urgent (I want violent criminals off the streets as much as anyone else does). However - I still retain my suspicion of an garda siochana from my outside life when dealing with them.

In converse - In australia - I have been randomly breath tested umpteen times. The convo is usually - "Good morning/afternoon/evening - this is a random breath test checkpoint. Have you had anything to drink today or last night? Can you show me your license and blow into this machine until it bleeps." "Thank you (sir), everything is fine and enjoy your day". Courtesy is always there on the outside as well as on professional interactions in the hospital. After its over you can have a minute of chit-chat like why they are checking at 6pm (to catch people having cheeky pints after work) and courtesy given is received with a smile.

Personally - I have an intense dislike for guns (particularily handguns) and feel very uncomfortable being in the presence of them which I find a barrier for me in interacting with australian police. But despite this - am more comfortable with openly armed ozzie than with gardai.

I do think that an garda siochana could do with a face lift in their interaction with joe public. I know a lot of very good people who are gardai on a personal basis but facet of the public face the public see is negative in my opinion.

In all fairness you're example was eight years ago and there have been a lot of internal changes to address that kind of stuff, as you pointed out when referring to the pheonix park incident. I think they have done a good job in improving their attitudes and behaviour.

In relation to the breath testing. It's a lot more formal in Ireland as it is the most challenged piece of legislation and everything the Garda says has to be by the book. Go to the courts and watch some drink driving cases being contested. It's amazing what they are challenged on. I've seen a few contested on the grounds that the Garda "interrogated" the driver with his chit chat.

Odysseus

k_mac wrote: »

In relation to the breath testing. It's a lot more formal in Ireland as it is the most challenged piece of legislation and everything the Garda says has to be by the book. Go to the courts and watch some drink driving cases being contested. It's amazing what they are challenged on. I've seen a few contested on the grounds that the Garda "interrogated" the driver with his chit chat.

Personally I think I am going off topic a tad, but you reminded me of a particular incident last year. I have been tested a few times and I have to say in Dublin the level of interaction was excellent, full procedure explained, showed a sterile tube, being placed in the breeathalyzer. Job done thanked for my cooperation etc. Little things like that do stay with me, and I try to balance out the bad ones with the good ones.

I have only being tested in Louth once, stopped, basically told to blow into the tube, once done; told I could move on. It didn't enter my mind until I was a few km down the road that not only was the relavant act metioned to me, I didn't see a sterile tube placed upon the tester. I wouldn't mind but we use them in work so I should know better. The only thing that was explained to me was the actual procedure of blowing in the tube.

I don't think its an example of a bad attitude, it was just your post reminded me of it. I don't know but if a person was not shown a sterile tube being placed in the tester I would imagine it could lead to a challenge.

MagicSean

Odysseus wrote: »

Personally I think I am going off topic a tad, but you reminded me of a particular incident last year. I have been tested a few times and I have to say in Dublin the level of interaction was excellent, full procedure explained, showed a sterile tube, being placed in the breeathalyzer. Job done thanked for my cooperation etc. Little things like that do stay with me, and I try to balance out the bad ones with the good ones.

I have only being tested in Louth once, stopped, basically told to blow into the tube, once done; told I could move on. It didn't enter my mind until I was a few km down the road that not only was the relavant act metioned to me, I didn't see a sterile tube placed upon the tester. I wouldn't mind but we use them in work so I should know better. The only thing that was explained to me was the actual procedure of blowing in the tube.

I don't think its an example of a bad attitude, it was just your post reminded me of it. I don't know but if a person was not shown a sterile tube being placed in the tester I would imagine it could lead to a challenge.

I think there has been a fairly recent ruling stating gardaí do not need to quote the act now. Just have to make a demand and indicate the method of delivery.

Traumadoc

I work with AGS professionally and find them to be very professional, and polite.
I occasionally meet a rude Guard when stopped on the road, but I can honestly say it was only two occasions in over 20 years of driving.

When you meet a rude consultant or nurse or whatever you remember it far more than the numerous times you have met polite ones.

Shield

Traumadoc wrote: »

When you meet a rude consultant or nurse or whatever you remember it far more than the numerous times you have met polite ones.

If ever there was a sentence that summed it all up, this is it.

Me and tallaght01 had an exchange of PMs back and forth about this while I was formatting this thread for discussion, and here are some of the things I mentioned to him:

I'm from Dublin myself, and I grew up around the same time he did in Dublin, so I can 100% relate to his story. I too have met rude Gardai when I was growing up in Dublin. I was subject to the same attitude, abuse, searches, threats etc from the local Gardai as he was, even though I never did anything that warranted such behaviour. I was raised well and taught to respect the Gardai, but that was hard given how any teenager seemed to be targeted for a questioning, a search and lots of intimidation.

Relate this to another public sector service:

Any time I have been to an A&E in Dublin, I've been left waiting for hours and hours, while I see doctors and nurses standing, chatting, laughing, drinking tea and generally taking it nice and easy. My perception that they are doing the bare minimum amount of work is probably wrong, but that's how it looks.

Read the papers and you'll see instances of people being left on trollies, dying in A&E waiting rooms, not getting seen unless at least 8 hours have passed, and so on.

If I rolled up all the negative experiences I have of being in an A&E department, I could make the place and people sound like hell on earth.

The thing is, AGS (and A&E staff) deal with hundreds of incidents every day, and bad news travels quicker and wider than good news. You'll never read in the papers about a Garda who put in a great day in the office, but if just one Garda has an off-day, or makes a mistake - boom - front page news, angry mobs and so on, and I refer you to Traumadoc's sentence above - you always remember the bad.

Nobody is perfect. Nobody can do their job 100% right 100% of the time and everyone makes mistakes, and as the old saying goes: When you're right nobody remembers, when you're wrong nobody forgets.

It just takes a few Gardai to taint the public's perception of the entire force, and I'm sure most of you have, or have heard stories where you feel Gardai acted inappropriately. I know I do. There's no need to post them here though.

I would prefer to see suggestions and comments on how people feel AGS could improve their image to the general public without making reference to specific incidents.

Be warned though, this is not a Garda-bashing thread, and I won't allow it to evolve into one. Be respectful, polite and if possible be constructive in your post. If you have an idea about something, share it. AGS management and the Garda Press Office read this forum very often, and who knows - your suggestion and feedback might very well be taken on board by the wider force.

Have your say, in a respectful way.

Thanks.

gerire

The law is equal
Evening Herald

The knock that signalled probably the worst day of his life


At 6.30am yesterday, Sean FitzPatrick, former chairman and chief executive of Anglo Irish Bank, began what may well have been the worst day of his life.

A knock on the door of his palatial mansion in Greystones led to his home being searched by detectives from the Garda Bureau of Fraud Investigation (GBFI).

The house would have been searched in minute detail, which means that an officer would rumble the building in a tried and tested systematic manner.

Even the most private and personal places would not escape the gaze of officers.

Mr FitzPatrick would have been shown the warrant issued by a judge of the District Court, who would have heard sworn evidence from a member of the GBFI.

Mr FitzPatrick would have been told of the reasons for his arrest for an offence under the Theft and Fraud Offences Act, and cautioned.

It would be normal practice to handcuff the prisoner at this stage before putting him in the the back of an unmarked car and conveying him to Bray station.

The caution, administered by a senior detective, goes: "You are not obliged to say anything unless you wish to do so but that anything you say will be taken down in writing and may be given in evidence."

Mr FitzPatrick would be treated as any other arrested prisoner, be they prince to a pauper.

On arrival he would be taken into the custody suite and processed.

His name, address, date of birth and colour of hair, eyes would be entered in the custody record as well as any peculiarities, such as tattoos or earrings.

His shoe laces, belt and any item that could be used as a ligature would have been taken from him.

His possessions would have been taken and placed in a secure envelope for safe custody for his stay.

He would be then offered the services of a solicitor, which he could avail of or not. He would be able to nominate his own solicitor at his own expense.

At that point the former Anglo boss would have been put in a cell measuring about 10 feet by 12 feet.

These are rather drab places, but kept clean. In the cell is a stand-up toilet, a bed with a basic pillow and a grey blanket to keep the prisoner warm.

Disturbed

Mr FitzPatrick would not have been given any special treatment to that of other prisoners. All would be treated in the same methodical fashion.

Suffice to say it is a long way from a comfortable bed in Greystones, and, for someone who would never have been in such a position in the past, Mr FitzPatrick most likely would have had a disturbed sleep.

Indeed, if gardai at Bray had a busy night, he may well have had company, from a drunk or drugs suspect, or some other class of prisoner.

All his interviews would have been undertaken in a room fitted with audio visual recordings.

The questioning period would last three hours at the time and all the tapes would be removed from the recording machine afterwards.

He would have been asked to select a master tape which would then be sealed in his presence and handed to the sergeant in charge of the station for safe custody.

Two other copies would have been made under the same recording system. After six hours his detention would have been extended for a further six hours by a superintendent and, as is evident now, at the end of that 12 hours it was further extended for another 12 hours.

If he signed the custody record, his period of rest would be suspended between midnight and 8am.

During breaks in interviewing -- between midnight and 8am, he would have kept secure in his cell.

During the night he would have been visited every 15 minutes to ensure his safety and an entry would have been made to that effect in the custody record.

Today, after his detention period expires, he will be either released or charged. Sean FitzPatrick will remember the knock on the door and his period in custody to the day that he leaves this life.

The garda treats all prisoners the same -- status in life means nothing in the quest for the truth.

PJ Browne is a former detective superintendent with over 35 years experience investigation serious crime

DrIndy

I think in many ways problems with interactions do stem from poor communication.

As a witness and a doctor on scene to a road traffic accident - I was treated extremely courteously and a lot of leeway was given for me to make myself free to make my garda statement.

But at the frontline such as at checkpoints, its not always the case. If it clearly explained why you are being stopped right from the outset and any sanctions given clearly outlined - people have much less of a reason to get their backs up. There will always be a significant and very vocal minority who were clearly at fault and they simply want to moan about how unfair it is that they got caught.

Has the gardai ever surveyed the public on their perceptions of the gardai? Maintaining courtesy when dealing with muppets a lot of the time can be tiresome (I have personal experience of this form work) but always found that by remaining very courteous - I could defuse situations which would otherwise become inflamed. On the other hand - most people want to see me (even if it is just to try to con me into giving them morphine). Most people don't want to encounter the gardai when their insurance has run out!

gerire

DrIndy wrote: »

Has the gardai ever surveyed the public on their perceptions of the gardai?

http://www.irish-association.org/archives/papers/noel_conroy.pdf
The most recent survey last year provides encouraging evidence of this continuing support
with 81% of people surveyed indicating that they were satisfied with the overall Garda
Service. While this is somewhat lower than that recorded for 2002 (87%), it is a fact that,
previous surveys, which were carried out at various intervals since 1986, have all indicated
satisfaction ratings of over 80%.

slavetothegrind

Attitude sums up your experience.

If we accept at the start that now and again you get the 1 percentile bad apple.
Every encounter we have begins with our own attitude. At being stopped at all, delayed. Are we already spoiling for a row?

I've been stopped a lot for breathalisers and other checks, do a lot of miles.
I've also been prosecuted for road tax out of date.:o
I've always been dealt with professionally and respectfully.

I think that is in the main due to my attitude to the member at the start of the conversation.

If you feel you are treated wrongly take the number and write a letter of complaint. they ARE read and you WILL get a reply ( i know someone who did)

We all got the attitude as kids at some point, hopefully that is changing!

I am not, nor have i ever been, a guard and have not been reimbursed for my two cents worth.