Electric Bikes - Comparisons/Reviews and Locations to Buy?

ecorr

I'm considering cycling the Artane to Parkwest commute which is about a 30km round trip.

a) I'm not yet particularly fit but I'm not too bad
b) I need to arrive in work in a fit state to operate

Using this rationale I was considering an electric (pedelec) bike but have been having trouble finding irish suppliers and comparison reviews of brands available in Ireland.

So far I've identified:

• Kalkhoff Agutta - got a 5 star review in AtoB magazine from the UK
• Giant Twist - Got a 3 star review in AtoB magazine, didn't really explain why not higher though.
• Wisper Electric Bike - Seems to be available in a few sites
• EasyBike - Dutch company, can't find any reviews
• KenBay - No reviews on line but I was told that they wouldn't be as high quality as the Giant (a good bit cheaper though!)

So, basically, I'm looking for a bike that will hold up to 30 to 35 km per day, 5 days a week and not fall apart after a month and one that will leave me reasonably comfortable.

I was thinking of adding internal hub gears and front fork suspension to the shopping list, worth the extra cash?

I did try the Hybrid Twist Express RS2 and it was really smooth, amazing how quick and easy it was to get to full speed.

ednwireland

15km is not that far !!!!
few threads on electric bikes
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055717328&highlight=electric+bikes
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055717328&highlight=electric+bikes
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055363675&highlight=electric+bikes
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=179262&highlight=electric+bikes

irish suppliers
http://electricbikes.ie/
http://www.mopeds.ie/
http://www.greenmachines.ie/

apart from that i'd be looking a battery replacement cost, and guarantee on the batteries
as with all rechargeable items if the battery goes its usually expensive to replace and you could end up with a garden ornament (i still beleive battery technology isnt there yet ( and i dont have far to cycle to work)

BULLER

I was recently looking at these too. Its a 15km trip from my house to DCU which takes over an hour by bus.

The KenBay e-bikes for €1100 have a fantastic battery in them for the price.(36V 13AH Lithium) I'm not sure about the build quality but I agree the Giant would have to be better built for the price! The question is, is it worth nearly €1000 more? I'm positive you wont find a better battery for this price as I've been searching.
As far as I can see the KenBay e-bikes have decent quality parts; aluminium frame, front disk brakes, 250w brushless motor...

Cabaal

ednwireland wrote: »

15km is not that far !!!!

I'd agree to an extent, its nmot that far if your used to it doing 15km trip before you start work is hard enough going if your not used to it

Lumen

If you want fast and relaxing, use a petrol moped/scooter.
If you want slow and exercisey, use a bicycle.
If you don't want to arrive sweaty, just cycle slower.

</stuck record>

BULLER

Lumen wrote: »

If you want fast and relaxing, use a petrol moped/scooter.
If you want slow and exercisey, use a bicycle.
If you don't want to arrive sweaty, just cycle slower.

</stuck record>

If you want fast use a petrol moped/scooter.
If you want slow and exercisey, use a bicycle.
If you want fast and relaxing, use an e-bike.

He's asking for opinions on e-bikes, not other forms of transportation.

I looked up the wisper bikes (I'd never heard of them) and they look very good and have quality parts. Theyre nearly as expensive as the Giant though.

SubLuminal

I'd strongly suggest considering a normal bike over an electric one. The benefits of cycling are immense, not just to your physical fitness, but state of mind and overall well being too - 15km isn't that far, maybe it is to walk but remember on a bike whenever you're going downhill you have the option of just sitting and enjoying the freewheel.. Consider also that bicycles are much, MUCH faster as a mode of transport in cities than anything else, cars, buses, even scooters and motorbikes aren't as quick once you know what you're doing..

Get a decent second hand racer-type bike for €250 or so - you don't need a carbon fibre race bike, just a decent racer-type road bike. There's plenty for sale on boards.ie, gumtree, etc - try it for a month and if you really hate it get your electric bike, but give yourself a chance on a non-electric one first, you might just surprise yourself by how much you enjoy cycling. Don't be daunted by people who whiz about in full lycra, cycling is at its core for most people a leisurely, enjoyable, cheap, green and very healthy mode of transport. And if it sucks and you hate it, sell the other bike after getting your 'leccy one.

Just my two cents..

I find my bicycle journeys to be both fast and relaxing. The two arent mutually exclusive. I LOVE riding my bike, and I'm a LOT quicker than any car, taxi, bus or (sorry) heavy e-bike thing.. plus I'm getting healthy!

BostonB

SubLuminal wrote: »

...Get a decent second hand racer-type bike for €250 or so ...

Hard to find a decent road bike 2nd hand for that price. Can you link to a few if you've found some.

BostonB

My round trip is 22k and I'm not fit and it takes me 45min in and an hour home. Taking it easy. That said I don't think you should lash straight in and do it 5 days a week unless you're young, have no injuries, or not too unfit.

The advantages of the electric bike are that you can go further and more often for less effort. Which might make a 5 day commute doable that isn't (for that person) on a regular bike.

That said the electric bikes are expensive and it might be better to cycle a few days and get a scooter for the other days.

SubLuminal

Or just cycle some days and use whatever mode of transport you currently use for the ones where you don't cycle. But honestly i'd say within 2 weeks you'll be blazing a trail into work on pedal power alone with a big grin on your face.

Racers for €250 or under: quick search yields these..

http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/gentsbicycles/1220426 - nice looking one for €100, although 'tis in galway.

http://www.gumtree.ie/dublin/25/55842925.html

http://www.gumtree.ie/dublin/64/55701664.html <-- this one's a lovely green and under 90 euro!

http://www.gumtree.ie/dublin/93/54591493.html

There'll be others. Also I know Rothar (www.rothar.ie) has a few racer frames in at the moment if you look them up and drop by for a chat they'd be able to set you up with a nice little thing to get you started for under €200 and give you lots of friendly advice too.

If those electric bikes were that good, or cycling 'normally' were hard/unenjoyable, there'd be a lot more than the combined total of 2 that I've ever seen of those leccy bikes on the roads..

BostonB

Thanks. Last time I looked none of those places had any. People must be clearing out their sheds for the summer!

Eircom_Sucks

electric bikes = shiiite

i was a couch potatoe and now cycle 40k a day easily and u feel great when u get home from work , all energised and alert

op poster why not use the bike to work scheme in your job ?????????

ecorr

Can you add a bit of background to why you think electric bikes = shiiite? I can't exactly make an informed decision based on this.
Thanks to those that had some useful things to add.

To clarify a couple of comments/questions:

There is no way I would get a motor bike/scooter/moped as, personally, I don't feel comfortable with them and there is the additional cost of tax and insurance.

For me, the only options I see are:

• Standard human powered bike, either a hybrid or road bike.
• Electric (pedal assisted) bikes. Top assisted speed of 25km, must always be pedalling, just not very hard.

Anyway, the cycle to work scheme in the office only uses one supplier so my options on the e-bike are down to the Kenbay or the Giant.

BULLER

http://eco-bike.ie/eco-men-electric-bicycles-for-men-c2.html
Just come across this Irish site, good quality batteries and motors.

SubLuminal

Op, I'm not having a go here, but whats putting you off getting a normal bicycle? Is it just that you don't think you'll be able to hack it? Cycling isn't that tough if you aren't really trying to bomb it, you can always just put it in an easy gear and cruise for a bit of you're getting tired, like I said you might surprise yourself if you give it a go


"Electric bikes = shiiiite" ; I think his point is that they're slow, heavy and the perception is that they're for people too unfit to actually ride a bike

BostonB

Maybe try it on a regular bike at the weekend before dismissing that option completely.

ednwireland

BULLER wrote: »

good quality batteries and motors.

how do you know ??????????

just did a quick google on lithium polymer batteries

Does Temperature Affect Lithium Polymer Batteries?
Yes, lithium polymer batteries are affected by temperature. All batteries use a chemical reaction to provide electricity, and a low temperature slows this reaction down significantly. You cannot harm a lithium battery by running it at a low temperature, but you will notice a significant decrease in performance. Allowing lithium polymer batteries to freeze is generally not recommended, so be sure to store the lithium battery in a cool, dry location over the winter months.

How many cycles will a lipo battery last for?
There is really no clear and concise answer for this question. The lifetime of the lipo battery really depends on how it was used. If you over discharge, over charge, or drain the battery at a higher C rating than it was intended for it will not last long. If you take care of your batteries, and are careful to follow the manufacturers instructions, you can expect to get at least 300 cycles during the lifespan of the batteries.


so you'll be pedalling in the winter and the batteries might need replacing in a year (not trying to be funny but thats what i'd be asking if i was buying, if a replacement battery pack costs you 500 quid a year just say - i have no idea )

SubLuminal

Me again - had an idea

Do you live near one of those dublinbikes things? Perhaps you could get off the bus a few stops early near a dublinbikes rental thing and try one out. Getting off the bus onto a bike would be quicker than staying on the bus, it'd let you try out a 'regular' (although terrible) bike without the cost implication, and it'd give your legs a bit of a work out in preperation for whatever other kind of bike you end up with.

Just a thought..

ecorr

All good and valid points.

I'm going to take a more detailed look at the non-electric bike route and see what the costs will be before going down the road of buying the electric bike.

My main concern with the normal bike is my fitness level and dealing with hills/headwinds etc. I don't want to arrive into work in bits but, as said, it might be a case of eating the pain until my system gets used to it.

My other frustration is that I would love to get feedback relating to electric bikes from people who have used them. There are a lot of perceptions around but most don't seem to be based on experience. For example, if I separate the initial cost factor question I would like to know what are the disadvantages/advantages of using the electric bike.

Clearly, due to it's weight, if the battery runs out the non-powered cyc;e is a lot more difficult. Also the ongoing battery costs are 300 to 400 euro, every X km, my calculations are that I should get 2 to 3 years or more based on my commute.

The advantages are that a more consistent speed is available irrespective of your energy levels at the time of the journey.

Highway_To_Hell

here is an article that was in the Irish Times last april about a guy who got an electric bike on the bike to work scheme, the article might put you off cycling completely.

My input would be that a decent hybrid/road bike would alway give a better return then an electric bike.

ecorr

Don't worry, I'm well aware that, regardless of the type of bike involved, Dublin is a bloody awful city to cycle in.

I did the artane to ballsbridge cycle over the east link for a few weeks two yaers ago and that was a mixed experience to say the least!

ScottStorm

The electric bikes seem to have replaced the pushbike in Beijing

tomasrojo

ecorr wrote: »

Don't worry, I'm well aware that, regardless of the type of bike involved, Dublin is a bloody awful city to cycle in.

Actually, in my extensive experience, it's fine. There are some bad streets, but overall I don't find it a bad place at all.

Have you considered a Brompton or other folding bike? You could do part of the journey by bus and the rest by bike. Bromptons also retain a very substantial part of their original value on resale, if they're well looked after, and they come in six-gear models now. They're very well established, and you'd almost certainly have far less trouble sourcing spare parts than you would with an electric bike.

Lumen

I got overtaken on a slight incline today by someone coasting on an e-bike.

It had a sign on the back with a link to here.

I was on a DB, and was attempting to avoid getting too sweaty. Still, it was a bit humiliating.

This in no way represents any kind of recommendation, but it was nonetheless interesting.

Obviously if I'd been on a proper bike he'd have stood no chance. That's what I'm telling myself.

islanddoc

Also looking into Electric Bikes- previous recreational and commuter cyclist now live in a hilly part of ireland, not a fit as used to be and can't face a long hill cycle as first part of any ride- Kenbay let you rent before you buy might be a good option. The Giant range seem better build quality but at over twice the price they'd have to be really good.
Let me know of any success would be interested.

Fizzlesque

SubLuminal wrote: »

I'd strongly suggest considering a normal bike over an electric one. The benefits of cycling are immense, not just to your physical fitness, but state of mind and overall well being too - -

Contrary to common assumption, using an electric bike doesn't negate the benefits of cycling. They're actually 'pedal assisted' which means it gives assistance rather than doing all the work for you.

I've been cycling (ordinary bikes) for years and bought an electric bike last year and I can confirm that it doesn't do ALL the work for you - just the tedious tiresome hard work that puts people off cycling. Namely cycling up hills and against strong winds, and covering distances that are a bit longer than average.

I can't recommend an electric bike enough - they're fantastic. People often think it means you get no excerise at all, but they're very wrong.

Go for it - you'll love it. And if you're like me, you'll end up cycling twice as often and twice as far as you would if you had an ordinary bike.

Fizzlesque

Quote [I got overtaken on a slight incline today by someone coasting on an e-bike.[/QUOTE]

Haha, your post made me laugh, Lumen. As one of those electric bike users, I often have no choice but to overtake someone, especially on a hill, which is when electric bikes really shine.

I've had to switch off the power (switch on handlebar) sometimes because I can't get past a slow cylist (of which I used sometimes be, on my old bike, so I'm not judging) and the bike really wants to go faster.

Some cyclists seem to take it personally and do all they can to overtake you at some point. Irritaingly catching up at traffic lights and slithering just ahead of you so you have to overtake them again when the lights change. Of course, that only refers to cyclists that stop at red lights....

acfunduro

I am currently trialling the Giant electric hybrid bike. It is fantastic. I am a regular cyclist owning a Kona Dew Deluxe which is a pretty good bike. I was sceptical of the Giant but as part of earth day (today) I pledged to live without my car for a week and work organised the lend of the giant for me. It is a heavy bike but very well built. It has 7 gears, 3 boost modes and so far the battery range has been great. I have a 14 mile round trip and averaged 14.5 miles per hour on the way home (a very steep hill at the end of the trip) and 15.7 mph on the way in to work. I am 6'3" and weigh more than I should plus I was carrying lots of books, a heavy lock, a towel, change of clothes and lunch which all add to the weight but fit neatly in the panniers. If you want to arrive to work and home feeling great but not wrecked this is the ticket. I like my Kona but this is a different gig altogether. It's a commuter. While I accept what others say about a good racer etc.. things to factor in are headwinds and hills. Not a problem on the giant. Also v comfy saddle. It's a commuting tool, a time machine if you will. You will speed along, charging takes 4 hours and the battery is good for 600 charges (2 year min.). Giant is world's largest bike company and the premium in the price is for the build quality. Rock solid. I am going to buy one myself when the trial is up. I have 2 small kids and study to do in the evening. Tonight after my commute by bike I have lots of energy to play with the kids and tacke the books. Not possible on the Kona (that is more of a work out). That's my 2cents worth.

Fizzlesque

How are you getting on with the bike, Acfunduro? I love the idea of you pledging to live without your car for a week - well done you.

Your comment about having energy left over in the evening to spend time playing with your kids, and spend time studying, is very valid. It's not about showing everyone on the road how easy (or not) you find cycling, it's about getting to where you need to go, without wasting half your life sitting in traffic or flaked out on the couch exhausted from a cycle that's a full workout.

I also loved your time machine comment. The possibilities are endless.

acfunduro

I dropped the bike back yesterday and was sad to see it go. I cycled 75 miles on it and had a great time with it. I even dreamt about it twice! It got so into my head. The range was great - easily 30 miles on normal mode, more on eco. I am a fit cyclist so the fitter the more you pedal the better the battery life. Hills will drain it but same as a fuel tank in a car. I used the bike for all sorts of jobs - trips to the shop and to the chipper. The panniers are huge. I didn't miss the car at all as this bike takes the strain out of cycling. Be sure though - it's not a free ride. You have to pedal. I love my Kona still but this is a commuting tool. I found out y'day that Giant have a factory specifically dedicated to building this range of bikes. The frame is custom made for it as are the rims and spokes so the machine is up to the weight. It is fast too. I averaged 15.8 mph on the way to work ( I even checked with my sat nav and it correlated with bike's speedo ). I got to work in my car in 25 mins, emitting carbon and adding to traffic and feeling flat with the whole experience. On the Giant the time was 25 mins and I arrived having my quota of exercise for the day and having breathed in and interacted the world we live in. I'm converted. These bikes have a lot to offer.

Lemon_Drop

I'm just wondering has the "bike to work scheme" inflated the cost of the bikes?

Looking at all the sites listed on this thread, it looks like the bottom line come in at €1000

Like the big sell is that you get alot of the cost back through tax breaks or whatever.
But if your self employed you pay the full whack.
Maybe you can claim VAT back, but then again some of the self employed are not registered for vat. :rolleyes:

BostonB

People here are just using the maximum they can, which is 1000. I know some at work who have just spent 300 or so. No intention of spending any more. You can buy a bike for 150 if you want.

garancafan

A forum that I have found very useful is www.pedelecs.co.uk.

My recently acquired Gazelle Chamonix Innergy from 2wheels Sandymount has given me a new lease of life. Well worth a look also is the Kalkhoff range. While these 2 are at the expensive end of the market they are great bikes even without the assist on. The Kenbay (Irish design - Taiwan built) while lacking some of the refinements of the others, should not be dismissed and are considerably cheaper.

Lemon_Drop

Thanks for the link garancagan,

What I really cant understand is that most the company's are saying that the top of the range bikes, the motor is on the rear wheel, for better traction and stuff.

I'm not really machanically minded so I can't really understand it at all.

I thought it would make more sense it the motor was on the front wheel, giving you two wheel drive.

ie: motor in the front wheel and power from the pedals going to the back wheel.
I seen the Kenbay one, in a shop but I was not impressed. It looks like a basic mountain bike with bottom or the range Shimano parts.

And at €1100, going buy their website prices, it would make more sense to buy a better mountain bike and add a conversion kit to that.

garancafan

Lemon drop.

IMO traction is not an issue in the case of such low-powered motors (wheel-spin is not a common problem!). I have not, in practice, found any difference between front-hub and rear-hub motors. I had a requirement for hub gears and that confined me to front-hub motors.

The other option is a pedal-crank motor such as those on the Kalkhoff "C" series. These are regarded as giving an advantage in very hilly terrain but are not regarded as being as efficient overall as hub motors.

As to the Kenbay - if mountain-biking is your thing then your suggestion of a good MTB fitted with a kit makes sense, but I think that you would find this more expensive than a Kenbay. Expect to pay at least e700 for kit + battery.

luminosity

Anyone familiar with this companys' bikes?
I have read all posts with interest as am searching to buy an electric bike. I am at feel at a loss as to which one to purchase!! All the websites make ALL the bikes look great. I am going to testdrive this one (cyclotronic) next week, it seems cheaper than the others but thats not necessarily a bad thing....not necessarily a good thing either!! I guess in the end it comes down to personal preference after a testdrive of as many as possible.
Was surprised to see how 'strongly' some people feel about a regular bike over an electronic one. Not everyone is so lucky to have good health and therefor fitness levels. And wouldn't it be great if cycling could be more inclusive .....

garancafan

Not familiar with "cyclotronic" Would it be "cytronex" possibly?

John L1

Hi guys

Just thought I'd mention conversion kits. I recently converted my giant crs 3 hybrid bike with a sunlova conversion kit (see http://cgi.ebay.ie/26-8Fun-Ebike-Electric-Bike-Conversion-Kit-36V-8F26R36-/190403989251?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_SportGoods_CyclAcces_RL&hash=item2c54f64f03) - this is the 26" version mine was the 28" one.

It took a little work to fit but its running very well now. Last week I tried to use up the battery on a spin but 45 miles later there was still life in it!

I'm not into simply sitting on the bike and letting it do all the work. With the motor on I pedal away as best I can. This way it feels like you have a wind on your back all the time. My average speed is about 16.5mph. The thing is that you can work as hard or as little as you like.

john

Lumen

John L1 wrote: »

My average speed is about 16.5mph.

Does the assist not cut out at 15mph? I thought that was a legal requirement, and it's mentioned on the ebay ad.

John L1

Unassisted the motor won't bring you over 15mph.

Its difficult to say in relation to assisted - the motor contribution after 15mph is not so strong but it is there to about 18 - 19mph. After that you're on your own. I didn't fit the pedelec sensor (not enough room behind the chainwheel) so I use the throttle on full and pedal away. Not sure about the legalities.

John

Lumen

John L1 wrote: »

Unassisted the motor won't bring you over 15mph.

Its difficult to say in relation to assisted - the motor contribution after 15mph is not so strong but it is there to about 18 - 19mph. After that you're on your own. I didn't fit the pedelec sensor (not enough room behind the chainwheel) so I use the throttle on full and pedal away. Not sure about the legalities

Ah, OK. I don't really care about the legalities, I just like the idea of cycling into work at 45kph.

I imagine the limitation is that electric motors produce the most power at the lowest revs, so as the speed increases the power tails off "naturally". I can't think of any way of "fixing" this in a hub motor, unless it's internally geared. Presumably a bottom bracket motor (e.g. Gruber Assist) gives good power at any speed.

luminosity

garancafan wrote: »

Not familiar with "cyclotronic" Would it be "cytronex" possibly?

Nope its definitely the right name. Theres a website and he's partaking in the government tax scheme.I think it's a guy out on his own selling ebikes.
Thanks for reply though.

Lumen

Lumen wrote: »

Ah, OK. I don't really care about the legalities, I just like the idea of cycling into work at 45kph.

I imagine the limitation is that electric motors produce the most power at the lowest revs, so as the speed increases the power tails off "naturally". I can't think of any way of "fixing" this in a hub motor, unless it's internally geared. Presumably a bottom bracket motor (e.g. Gruber Assist) gives good power at any speed.

Electric motors generally have an almost flat torque curve. This means they can produce the same torque at their max rpm (which can be 10000 + rpm due to the lack of reciprocating parts) as they do at 100rpm. On e bikes the power output is regulated so that as speed increases, power decreases. This is done in order to comply with legislation and is not due to any inherent property of electric motors.

Lumen

Deleted User wrote: »

Electric motors generally have an almost flat torque curve. This means they can produce the same torque at their max rpm (which can be 10000 + rpm due to the lack of reciprocating parts) as they do at 100rpm. On e bikes the power output is regulated so that as speed increases, power decreases. This is done in order to comply with legislation and is not due to any inherent property of electric motors.

Oh, OK. So can an e-bike be easily modified to produce the same power at any speed?

Lumen

Lumen wrote: »

Oh, OK. So can an e-bike be easily modified to produce the same power at any speed?

I would imagine so. However it would then legally be a scooter and would have to comply with all the relevant legislation.

Lumen

Deleted User wrote: »

I would imagine so. However it would then legally be a scooter and would have to comply with all the relevant legislation.

Sure, that would go right on my to-do list, after "tidy shed".

garancafan

Injuring someone with an un-insured scooter would bring it up the to-do list.

Lumen

garancafan wrote: »

Injuring someone with an un-insured scooter would bring it up the to-do list.

It's not an un-insured scooter, it's an uninsured electrically assisted bicycle. Keep up.

garancafan

If you want to be pedantic it's actually an un-insured Mechanically-propelled Vehicle. I'm up.

garancafan

luminosity wrote: »

Nope its definitely the right name. Theres a website and he's partaking in the government tax scheme.I think it's a guy out on his own selling ebikes.
Thanks for reply though.

Would be grateful for a link to the website.