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State intervention on mortgages - Proposal

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24

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    #32
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,465 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Social Housing FTW.


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    #33
    BurnsCarpenter
    Registered Users Posts: 551 ✭✭✭BurnsCarpenter


    kippy wrote: »
    Social Housing FTW.

    Not sure what your point is - are you comparing the two?

    In theory at least, social housing is for people who can't afford to live anywhere else. This campaign is for the people "trapped" in the very houses they chose to buy.

    I don't think that anybody would argue that these people shouldn't avail of the same social housing benefits were their homes to become repossessed.


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    #34
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    BurnsCarpenter wrote: »
    Not sure what your point is - are you comparing the two?

    In theory at least, social housing is for people who can't afford to live anywhere else. This campaign is for the people "trapped" in the very houses they chose to buy.

    I don't think that anybody would argue that these people shouldn't avail of the same social housing benefits were their homes to become repossessed.

    What's the difference between someone who is 'trapped' in their home and someone who is 'living' in their home?
    Seems to me the only people who are 'trapped' are the people who figured they'd be able to trade up in a few years having made a healthy profit on their home, and are now aghast that they find themselves stuck in their 3 bed semi in the outskirts of Dublin.


    I feel the best way for the government to rectify the situation is to rework bankruptcy and mortgage laws to be similar to the US, however these laws must only apply to new mortgages.


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    #35
    AARRRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 566 ✭✭✭AARRRRGH


    The government should have offered a fixed rate loan to householders instead of NAMA.

    The NAMA money would have been so much more useful used in that way.

    People currently with loans could transfer their loans to the government at a fixed rate. say 3.5% for 20 years. This would allow them some stability and insulate them against interest rate rises. It would also put a cap on what the banks can raise their rates to, because people will just transfer over to the government mortgage.

    New mortgages should not be in this scheme. The banks can compete for the business.

    I know some people have the attitude that anyone who bought a house should be punished for buying a house. But thats a bit of a self defeating attitude. They should be concerned with getting Ireland back on track, instead of trying to make themselves feel good at other peoples expense.


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    #36
    AARRRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 566 ✭✭✭AARRRRGH


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    What's the difference between someone who is 'trapped' in their home and someone who is 'living' in their home?
    Seems to me the only people who are 'trapped' are the people who figured they'd be able to trade up in a few years having made a healthy profit on their home, and are now aghast that they find themselves stuck in their 3 bed semi in the outskirts of Dublin.


    I feel the best way for the government to rectify the situation is to rework bankruptcy and mortgage laws to be similar to the US, however these laws must only apply to new mortgages.


    Id say the people who are "trapped" are the ones who bought a house, now cant raise enough from it to clear their debts, and have lost their jobs.

    Its only a problem if you cant pay your debts and live.


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    #37
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    After reading some of the replies about renting ,I wonder what people who rent do ,when they are in retirement ?

    To me ,buying a home means that as you get older ,cost of living decreases. If you rent ,you have a life long necessity to pay your way.
    I don't think anyone that bought a house to live in,at anytime ,was acting wrecklessly.


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    #38
    Fighting Irish
    Registered Users Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish


    69 wrote: »
    Where is the "own mistakes" and "you gambled and lost" rhetoric coming from? People get married need a home and buy one. They were not reponsible for the inflated market, the devolopers/builders/banks were.

    by buying into the "sure it's only €300K" they infact were also responsible for inflating the market


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    #39
    Fighting Irish
    Registered Users Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    After reading some of the replies about renting ,I wonder what people who rent do ,when they are in retirement ?

    To me ,buying a home means that as you get older ,cost of living decreases. If you rent ,you have a life long necessity to pay your way.
    I don't think anyone that bought a house to live in,at anytime ,was acting wrecklessly.

    lol

    people need homes, but getting a loan of money and hoping things will always be dandy is wreckless


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    #40
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    Fighting Irish wrote: »
    lol

    people need homes, but getting a loan of money and hoping things will always be dandy is wreckless

    lol .. ,

    I know of plenty of people who worked very hard to get deposits ,bought houses and work hard to pay for them.
    They seen their parents in the family home ,with no mortgage and the freedom to enjoy life.
    I very much doubt ,people like this worked hard so they could be wreckless. Theres been twenty nine suicides related to mortgage debt lately ,have a lol at that.


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    #41
    Pittens
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭Pittens


    After reading some of the replies about renting ,I wonder what people who rent do ,when they are in retirement ?

    Nobody is suggesting renting for life is good.

    A possible solution. American bankruptcy laws now. Or even more.

    The owner can declare bankruptcy, but not without actual surrendering all liquid assets ( we can except 10K maybe). House is held by bank ( effectively owned by the bank owner) and owner can rent back the same house for standard rental price. Or move on. He cant take a mortgage for 10 years ( which will exclude some for life as they will be too old). Rental laws will change to protect the renter, and be enforced. Renting becomes more common, as in the Continent. The house is up for sale by the banks at any time.

    Two things happen here.

    1) House prices collapse more fully, dragging more people into the net. They can also declare bankruptcy.
    2) Mortgages and rents become cheaper.
    3) Domestic demand increases.


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    #42
    Pittens
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭Pittens


    I very much doubt ,people like this worked hard so they could be wreckless.

    The did however recklessly buy a house in the boom.

    BTW if anything like the OP's proposal goes through I assume that if house prices rise the government takes 100% of all profits.


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    #43
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    I really don't take nama serious at all ,it's just playing politics with our finances ,so we survive the capitalist storm. At most it's a fingers crossed exercise.

    We should be concerned about morale in the country aswell ,for our own well being. We can't keep kicking joe public down.

    Thats my concern with all this.


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    #44
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    BurnsCarpenter wrote: »
    Another article about this in the Sunday Independent.

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/the-banks-have-nama-but-who-is-there-to-help-homeowners-like-us-2106184.html

    A quote from that article: "What we did was buy a house. A crime for which we will spend the rest of our lives paying."

    This epitomizes the attitude many people have towards their personal economic woes. They like to create the impression that the banks or the government forced them to take out their mortgage, and constantly insinuate that the situation was totally out of their control. They avoid any hint that they may have been the ones who landed themselves in their current mess, and accuse those who disagree of being heartless.

    This persecution complex flies right in the face of the virtues of honesty and responsibility, supposed to have been taught to us when we were little ones.


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    #45
    the_dark_side
    Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭the_dark_side


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    I really don't take nama serious at all ,it's just playing politics with our finances ,so we survive the capitalist storm. At most it's a fingers crossed exercise.

    We should be concerned about morale in the country aswell ,for our own well being. We can't keep kicking joe public down.

    Thats my concern with all this.

    I feel that NAMA is a huge buying-time exercise so that those responsible for the fiasco can be retired or out of the public realm by the time the massive nama bankrupcy arrives... thats all it is, rather than face the dire consequences of defusing the bomb now, they have kicked the entire thing to touch so they can plan their get away... and meanwhile spin rhetoric to the public with advanced formulae and swanky calculations. Postponing the inevitable.
    Regarding house prices, I think the country is in limbo for at least another 15 years as a result of the huge payback required to balance the banks loan books... and don't expect any leniency from the banks or the government... the EU have them both over a barrel


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    #46
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    A quote from that article: "What we did was buy a house. A crime for which we will spend the rest of our lives paying."

    This epitomizes the attitude many people have towards their personal economic woes. They like to create the impression that the banks or the government forced them to take out their mortgage, and constantly insinuate that the situation was totally out of their control. They avoid any hint that they may have been the ones who landed themselves in their current mess, and accuse those who disagree as being heartless.

    This persecution complex flies right in the face of the virtues of honesty and responsibility, supposed to have been taught to us when we were little ones.

    I know plenty of people who bought in the last three years or so and none of them have that attitude.
    They do their best to take it on the chin ,but some of them have lost their jobs and things are getting harder.

    It's now becoming harder to rent aswell ,I know of someone who has had 60 people look at his house to rent. Rental oppurtunities are down more and more.
    We've had an exodus of emmigrants and now even more houses to rent ,because young people are going back to their parents house.

    If anything ,we need to take the bite out of all this ,by any means possible.


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    #47
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    I know plenty of people who bought in the last three years or so and none of them have that attitude.
    They do their best to take it on the chin ,but some of them have lost their jobs and things are getting harder.

    It's now becoming harder to rent aswell ,I know of someone who has had 60 people look at his house to rent. Rental oppurtunities are down more and more.
    We've had an exodus of emmigrants and now even more houses to rent ,because young people are going back to their parents house.

    If anything ,we need to take the bite out of all this ,by any means possible.

    theres 300000 empty houses, thats more houses lying empty than there are rented accomodation

    now read the above again until it sinks in

    high property prices hurt everyone, now that they are falling the ones who thought they were "cute whoors" are getting burned

    the writer of that sindo article deservers what she got, i swear i was so mad after reading that article that thinking that "imprisonment" is the least she deserves


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    #48
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    theres 300000 empty houses, thats more houses lying empty than there are rented accomodation

    now read the above again until it sinks in

    high property prices hurt everyone, now that they are falling the ones who thought they were "cute whoors" are getting burned

    the writer of that sindo article deservers what she got, i swear i was so mad after reading that article that thinking that "imprisonment" is the least she deserves

    Did you even read what I wrote ? ,I wasn't agreeing with that article at all.


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    #49
    Pittens
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭Pittens


    It's now becoming harder to rent aswell ,I know of someone who has had 60 people look at his house to rent. Rental oppurtunities are down more and more.

    it's getting harder to rent because there are more houses available. Did you mean to rent out?

    No, you didnt because you know someone who had 60 people look at his house.

    Thats the kind of economic illiteracy which got us in this mess.


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    #50
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    Pittens wrote: »
    it's getting harder to rent because there are more houses available. Did you mean to rent out?

    No, you didnt because you know someone who had 60 people look at his house.

    Thats the kind of economic illiteracy which got us in this mess.

    I've no debts sweetheart ,thanks very much.


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    #51
    Pittens
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭Pittens


    It's now becoming harder to rent aswell ,I know of someone who has had 60 people look at his house to rent. Rental oppurtunities are down more and more.

    Good for you. Me neither.

    Now back to what you meant about renting being hard.

    This thread is not about your debts.


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    #52
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Doesn't negative equity only become a problem when selling? The rest of the country doesn't owe everyone a right to make profit on every property transaction they make.


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    #53
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    fontanalis wrote: »
    Doesn't negative equity only become a problem when selling? The rest of the country doesn't owe everyone a right to make profit on every property transaction they make.

    It sets a dangerous precedent alright.

    I had a quick look through the Sunday papers this afternoon. The word's IRISH PROPERTY COUNCIL seem to pop up a lot in relation to the "We need to do something about houses/investors/builders" articles. I really don't like how much space is being given to these guys in the mainstream media...could some sort of proposal by government only be around the corner? I for one will be out protesting any such proposal.


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    #54
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    Pittens wrote: »
    Now back to what you meant about renting being hard.

    If people can't payback their mortgage and can't rent out ,they'll default. If theres enough defaults we'll have our second crash ,all of our own.


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    #55
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users Posts: 13,328 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    BurnsCarpenter wrote: »
    Edit: this as well - http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/this-blight-on-all-of-our-futures-must-be-tackled-2106181.html

    Looks like it's becoming a campaign. Seeing as the Sindo normally tends towards the right, I can only assume this position is purely down to Brendan O'Connor and others being directly affected.

    Amusing to compare the above with the attitude of O'Connor back in late 2007.

    The smart ballsy guys are buying up property now
    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/the-smart-ballsy-guys-are-buying-up-property-right-now-1047118.html

    "property is good value these days. It's certainly cheaper than it was six months ago"
    "There is no such thing as a good or a bad time to buy. It's always a good time to buy. "


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    #56
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    It sets a dangerous precedent alright.

    I had a quick look through the Sunday papers this afternoon. The word's IRISH PROPERTY COUNCIL seem to pop up a lot in relation to the "We need to do something about houses/investors/builders" articles. I really don't like how much space is being given to these guys in the mainstream media...could some sort of proposal by government only be around the corner? I for one will be out protesting any such proposal.

    How about something where if someone signs up for this proposed bailout they sign part of the house over to the government to be paid back later? I know it's probably unworkable but people can't walk away from debt.


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    #57
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    fontanalis wrote: »
    How about something where if someone signs up for this proposed bailout they sign part of the house over to the government to be paid back later? I know it's probably unworkable but people can't walk away from debt.

    How about they sell the house, take the hit and pay back the difference owed in much smaller repayments and find somewhere to rent?

    Too sensible?


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    #58
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    How about they sell the house, take the hit and pay back the difference owed in much smaller repayments and find somewhere to rent?

    Too sensible?

    Just normal practice in a non bubble economy.


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    #59
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    How about they sell the house, take the hit and pay back the difference owed in much smaller repayments and find somewhere to rent?

    Too sensible?

    Theres hundreds of people already trying to do this ,but they can't sell. Have a look on daft etc ,check out how long properties stay for sale.
    Most newish properties for sale at 60% of their bought price ,have been on the market for 12 months.

    You can be guaranteed that the mortgages are over 90% on these properties. It's a crazy situation.


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    #60
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    Theres hundreds of people already trying to do this ,but they can't sell. Have a look on daft etc ,check out how long properties stay for sale.
    Most newish properties for sale at 60% of their bought price ,have been on the market for 12 months.

    You can be guaranteed that the mortgages are over 90% on these properties. It's a crazy situation.

    They are obviously not going for a low enough price. They're only worth what people will pay, you can't just say "hmm 60% of purchase price sounds good to me".

    I agree it is an awful situation.


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    #61
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    They are obviously not going for a low enough price. They're only worth what people will pay, you can't just say "hmm 60% of purchase price sounds good to me".

    I agree it is an awful situation.

    I'm just rounding off figures ,some are lower and some higher. I'm all for making things right ,but if everything is devalued too quickly ,we won't have any banks ,we won't even be able to get at our cash savings.

    Our money is in the banks and the banks money is in our houses.


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