False No Usage Limit Claims With UPC

DaveyDave

UPC have on their website "no usage limit" and there's no * next to it and under "Conditions" they clearly state "there is no monthly usage cap for Fibre Power Broadband 15Mb or 30Mb"

Now, the past 5 months or so they've been hassling my mam about going over a so called 250GB monthly cap and have been charging double the cost each month, without warning, because of this.

Despite paying the extra fee, we're still capped at 250GB. Just to point out, there is NO mention of the 250GB cap on their website, and there is no mention of an €80 or so cost.

You'd think that after paying the extra money they would let us download 250GB+? It counts for upload too which doesn't help when uploading HD movies to YouTube, 320kbps DJ mixes, photos etc. It all ads up fast.

Just for reference, on their misleadingly titled 30Mb Fiber Power which is cable and not fiber optic, it is possible to download and upload over 10TB of data in a month. So we're essentially paying for 2.5% of the service.

I'm not an expert in law or anything, but if I remember correctly, under the Consumer Protection Act of 2007, isn't it an offence for UPC to make false claims about services?

Maybe someone can shed some light on this as I'm a heavy data user and I find it ridiculous how they can blatantly state that there is not a cap when there quite clearly is.

bk

I don't think it is illegal, the small print in the contract says that there is a fair usage policy and if you use too much they can disconnect you or move you up to the more expensive product.

Almost every Irish ISP has something like this, I think Magnet are the only one left who don't enforce some sort of cap or usage policy.

250GB is one of the most generous caps amongst Irish ISP, but I agree it is still far too low and ridiculous that it is only 2.5% of your potential download speed.

BTW I believe if you are on the €80 product, that you can use as much as you like, but you have to continue having it every month then.

paulm17781

bk wrote: »

I don't think it is illegal, the small print in the contract says that there is a fair usage policy

I's be curious if these have any place in law. All over the site it says unlimited then references "a fair usage policy" has anyone challenged this yet?

DaveyDave

I filed a complaint to the National Consumer Agency back in January but haven't heard back from them and don't expect to. It seems there's no winning in this battle for some reason. It's ridiculous.

dub45

You should contact Comreg about this and make a formal complaint. It is disgraceful that UPC can blast this ''unlimited'' thing all over their site without any qualification whatsoever and it is completely in conflict with Comreg's published policy on this:

Information about Fair Usage
A number of telephone and broadband packages being offered are described as ‘unlimited’. In this context the word ‘unlimited’ would normally be taken to mean that a subscriber, having agreed to pay a set price, may make as many calls or spend as much time online as he or she wishes. However, some service contracts qualify the meaning of ‘unlimited’ by stating that it is subject to an ‘acceptable’ or ‘fair’ level of use by the subscriber. This is referred to as a “fair usage policy” in some advertising.

ComReg would like to advise consumers that any provision of a contract which sets usage thresholds, or describes what constitutes ‘fair’ or ‘acceptable’ use, should be clear and unambiguous, particularly where the service is described as being ‘unlimited’.

Usage thresholds or limits should be clearly set out, as should the manner in which they may be updated or amended.

ComReg expects each service provider to implement a clear, transparent and policy for dealing with customer usage above any set thresholds. The policy should set out the rules for contract termination, including penalties, the charges that shall apply for any use above the threshold/limit, and the policy regarding migration of the customer to other packages, if applicable.

ComReg advises consumers to carefully read the terms and conditions of their contracts and to be aware of the particular limits or thresholds that apply before purchasing.

The emphasis above is mine.


http://www.askcomreg.ie/business/accessing_the_internet.346.LE.asp#L1002

yomamasflavour

dub45 wrote: »

You should contact Comreg about this and make a formal complaint. It is disgraceful that UPC can blast this ''unlimited'' thing all over their site without any qualification whatsoever and it is completely in conflict with Comreg's published policy on this:



The emphasis above is mine.


http://www.askcomreg.ie/business/accessing_the_internet.346.LE.asp#L1002

In reality, everyone should.

I imagine they will only consider doing something if they recieve enough complaints.

bealtine

dub45 wrote: »

You should contact Comreg about this and make a formal complaint.

Comreg couldn't regulate themselves out of a wet paper bag...

paulm17781

bealtine wrote: »

Comreg couldn't regulate themselves out of a wet paper bag...

True but that's no reason not to use them. We (the Irish) are great about complaining to anyone who'll listen accept for the person that we should actually be complaining too.

zeris

DaveyDave wrote: »

Just for reference, on their misleadingly titled 30Mb Fiber Power which is cable and not fiber optic, it is possible to download and upload over 10TB of data in a month. So we're essentially paying for 2.5% of the service.

If you can buy 30Mbps of IP transit for the price you would pay UPC a month I would strongly suggest you sign up with that provider.

d22ontour

DaveyDave wrote: »

Now, the past 5 months or so they've been hassling my mam about going over a so called 250GB monthly cap and have been charging double the cost each month, without warning, because of this.

Wow double the cost for exceeding...

DaveyDave wrote: »

Despite paying the extra fee, we're still capped at 250GB. Just to point out, there is NO mention of the 250GB cap on their website, and there is no mention of an €80 or so cost.

Bk, you told me this was the best option ??? wtf ???

Jonathan

How do you manage to transfer over 8GB of data every single day?

slave1

do we need another thread on this?

vibe666

Jonathan wrote: »

How do you manage to transfer over 8GB of data every single day?

sounds like flame bait to me, he's already stated that in his first post.

DaveyDave wrote: »

You'd think that after paying the extra money they would let us download 250GB+? It counts for upload too which doesn't help when uploading HD movies to YouTube, 320kbps DJ mixes, photos etc. It all ads up fast.

and yes, its been done to death already and could probably do with being merged with the last thread.

Ranicand

I like fair play and the UPC broadband packages are great value in my opinion.

The limits are more then fair in my opinion.

Misleading people about usage limits in underhanded and this does UPC more damage then good shame on them.

I agree with usage limits people hogging all the bandwidth is not fair but hiding these limits is not fair.

As regards people asking what do people use this bandwidth for well it's none of their business.

UPC is the limit 250GB up and down combined? if yes just state it.:rolleyes:

bk

Ranicand wrote: »

The limits are more then fair in my opinion.

I disagree, 250GB is too low for a 30mb/s package.

Also why is it that in other countries, UPC really don't have any cap. Rip off Ireland again.

bealtine

Ranicand wrote: »

The limits are more then fair in my opinion.

I have to disagree with that, a couple of heavy sessions on youtube and suddenly you've used up your allowance. So with that in mind I don't think the limits are fair at all, especially as the package is advertised as "unlimited".

Jonathan

bealtine wrote: »

I have to disagree with that, a couple of heavy sessions on youtube and suddenly you've used up your allowance. So with that in mind I don't think the limits are fair at all, especially as the package is advertised as "unlimited".

A couple of heavy sessions? More like a week of watching solid 1080p h.264 youtube.


Take for example the 1080p version of this video.

3500kbps*1min = 25.63MB/min
25.63MB/min*60min = 1.537GB/hour
250GB/1.537GB/hour = 162.65hours
166.66hours/24hours = 6.77days

vibe666

Jonathan wrote: »

A couple of heavy sessions? More like a week of watching solid 1080p h.264 youtube.


Take for example the 1080p version of this video.

3500kbps*1min = 25.63MB/min
25.63MB/min*60min = 1.537GB/hour
250GB/1.537GB/hour = 162.65hours
166.66hours/24hours = 6.77days

thats fine if you assume that no data is uploaded at all and there is no other activity on the connection during that time.

on average in my household we download 100-150gb per month, but the uploaded data usually takes care of the rest.

thats an average of 5gb per day on a 30mbps connection that could (at full speed) provide me with that full 250gb of downloaded data in 24 hours, 50 times my actual average daily usage.

zeris

bk wrote: »

Also why is it that in other countries, UPC really don't have any cap. Rip off Ireland again.

I would imagine if you read the T&Cs it'll say "take the piss and we'll cut you off".

zeris

vibe666 wrote: »

thats an average of 5gb per day on a 30mbps connection that could (at full speed) provide me with that full 250gb of downloaded data in 24 hours, 50 times my actual average daily usage.

Caps exist because UPC cannot afford to have customers maxing their 30Mbps link 24/7.

zeris

bealtine wrote: »

I have to disagree with that, a couple of heavy sessions on youtube and suddenly you've used up your allowance. So with that in mind I don't think the limits are fair at all, especially as the package is advertised as "unlimited".

Which limits would you feel are fair or are you against any limit?

PogMoThoin

zeris wrote: »

Caps exist because UPC cannot afford to have customers maxing their 30Mbps link 24/7.

Fine, Well then don't market it as an Unlimited product when its not

enfant terrible

Why don't comreg force them to label it as a 250GB limit per month instead of unlimited.

zeris

PogMoThoin wrote: »

Fine, Well then don't market it as an Unlimited product when its not

But is that what the problem is? Given some of the comments in this very thread if it was sold as a product with 250Gb bandwidth cap people would still be complaining.

Cabaal

enfant terrible wrote: »

Why don't comreg force them to label it as a 250GB limit per month instead of unlimited.

cause comreg are effectively as powerful and scary as a puppy, that and I also believe the advertising side of things would also come under the ASAI

hightower1

enfant terrible wrote: »

Why don't comreg force them to label it as a 250GB limit per month instead of unlimited.

I'm sure UPC would be delighted to label it with a 250 cap if every ISP was also forced to state their caps because everyone here seems to forget that every single ISP in Ireland all say their product is unlimited but in fact does have a limit.... why would UPC contest a blanket ruling to show caps when they are beating the pants off all the other ISP's cap wise. It'd be just another way for them to show off their superior specs. :cool:

rh5555

wow, i cant believe we are talking about the 250gb limit again. Maybe i didn't get the memo but is this now a weekly thing where someone else 'suddenly' discovers that UPC actually has a limit on bandwidth. I guess its because they don't like to go bankrupt having people downloading terabytes of data every month if they were allowed to.

I can say that the advertising of unlimited is practiced in several countries, the U.S. and Germany amongst them.
I am not condoning the use of the word 'unlimited' for broadband when there is a cap and hopefully that will change eventually.
However, nobody should expect to be able to download terabytes because even though the cost for the provider is fairly small it does cost money and almost no provider can afford those heavy users unless they increase the price.

Oh well looking forward to next week when we will have yet another discussion of someone who suddenly discovers that UPC is not truly unlimited.

hightower1

rh5555 wrote: »

wow, i cant believe we are talking about the 250gb limit again. Maybe i didn't get the memo but is this now a weekly thing where someone else 'suddenly' discovers that UPC actually has a limit on bandwidth. I guess its because they don't like to go bankrupt having people downloading terabytes of data every month if they were allowed to.

I can say that the advertising of unlimited is practiced in several countries, the U.S. and Germany amongst them.
I am not condoning the use of the word 'unlimited' for broadband when there is a cap and hopefully that will change eventually.
However, nobody should expect to be able to download terabytes because even though the cost for the provider is fairly small it does cost money and almost no provider can afford those heavy users unless they increase the price.

Oh well looking forward to next week when we will have yet another discussion of someone who suddenly discovers that UPC is not truly unlimited.

We could get lucky and people might actually start reading what their signing for and stop being naive? :eek::D

dub45

hightower1 wrote: »

We could get lucky and people might actually start reading what their signing for and stop being naive? :eek::D

Or maybe when apparently otherwise intelligent people will stop condoning dishonest advertising and dishonesty on their website on the part of UPC?

Any company that advertises an unlimited product that has a cap is being dishonest. The fact that many companies do it or that it happens in other countries is totally irrelvant!!!! It is dishonest pure and simple.

We should be demanding that companies behaven honestly not condoning their dishonesty.

And perhaps someone might point out where on UPC's website they tell you that there is a cap of 250g on an unlimited product?:rolleyes:

vibe666

hightower1 wrote: »

We could get lucky and people might actually start reading what their signing for and stop being naive? :eek::D

or (equally unlikely) the regulator could grow a pair of balls and actually, er, you know, 'regulate' the industry to stop ISP's from advertising and selling something that very clearly isn't what they state it is and then try and hide behind their small print. :rolleyes:

un·lim·it·ed [uhn-lim-i-tid]

– adjective
1. not limited; unrestricted; unconfined: unlimited trade.
2. boundless; infinite; vast: the unlimited skies.
3. without any qualification or exception; unconditional.

—Synonyms
1. unconstrained, unrestrained, unfettered.

seems to me that the dictionary is very clear about the definition of 'unlimited'. :rolleyes:

i don't think anyone here thinks for a minute that they should be allowed to use their connection flat out 24/7 with no restrictions at all, just that the people selling the product are honest about the limits of their products, rather than hiding behind small print and then penalising people for going over a limit they didn't think they had due to the mis-advertisement of the service they are paying for.

hightower1

Dub .... vibe... when ye start an ISP thats bettering UPC's network, for less than or the same price and has all the honesty in the world..... I'll be the first to sign. (I'll still read the small print but dont take it personally its just good common sense)

dub45

hightower1 wrote: »

Dub .... vibe... when ye start an ISP thats bettering UPC's network, for less than or the same price and has all the honesty in the world..... I'll be the first to sign. (I'll still read the small print but dont take it personally its just good common sense)

So (apparent) fast speeds justify dishonesty??? And there is plenty of stuff missing from UPC's 'small print' as any critical reading will demonstrate.

Pathetic.

UPC are an appalling company by many standards and it is quite incredible that people consistently allow 'fast speeds' to blind them to this fact.

vibe666

hightower1 wrote: »

Dub .... vibe... when ye start an ISP thats bettering UPC's network, for less than or the same price and has all the honesty in the world..... I'll be the first to sign. (I'll still read the small print but dont take it personally its just good common sense)

yet again, you don't have an argument so you just come out with a pointless post. :rolleyes:

since when did one person's inability to do 'better' than a dishonest multinational corporation exclude them from being able to criticise it?

i seem to remember our first little disagreement was when i accused you of working for UPC, but I see now that you obviously don't. you must be the PR manager for Toyota with views like that. :rolleyes:

JHMEG

enfant terrible wrote: »

Why don't comreg force them to label it as a 250GB limit per month instead of unlimited.

Broadband is not within the remit of Comreg. Or An Bord Pleanála or SIMI or Tesco. Broadband is not regulated in Ireland.

hightower1

jesus calm down, all i said was you do better and i'll join yer super isp. relax ....... its sunday!

dub45

hightower1 wrote: »

jesus calm down, all i said was you do better and i'll join yer super isp. relax ....... its sunday!

No matter what day of the week it is - nonsense is nonsense:rolleyes:

ArseBurger

JHMEG wrote: »

Broadband is not within the remit of Comreg. Or An Bord Pleanála or SIMI or Tesco. Broadband is not regulated in Ireland.

If you're stating that 'Broadband' is not regulated in Ireland, would you please define Broadband for me?

bk

- Fact most western countries have truly unlimited broadband [1]
- Fact UPC has an effective 250GB limit, they are lying, it isn't unlimited [2]
- Fact most other Irish ISP's are the same and often have worse caps. [3]

All ISP's shouldn't be allowed to advertise unlimited unless they really are.
All ISP's should be made advertise their CAP up front.
All ISP's should be made advertise what action is taken if you go over the cap.
All ISP's should be made advertise any other network management techniques they use, such as throttling or blocking P2P.

It is as simple as that, no excuses, the Department Of Communications and Minister Ryan should have taken care of this a long time ago.

[1] Really, most other countries don't even enforce fair usage policies on very heavy users. There was war in the US when Comcast tried trialing it.

[2] UPC use to seem to just operate a fair usage policy which seemed to be based on if you were on a very congested node and you were taking the piss, you would get a warning, that was fair enough. UPC have now crossed a line, were they seem to really just have a 250GB cap, which you get automatically charged €80 if you go over it.

This isn't a fair usage policy, this is an effective 250GB cap and UPC can't claim they are unlimited any longer, IMO

[3] In fairness, I haven't heard Magnet enforcing a fair usage policy on anyone and I think Eircom don't either, but I'm open to correction on that.

dub45

bk wrote: »

- Fact most western countries have truly unlimited broadband [1]
- Fact UPC has an effective 250GB limit, they are lying, it isn't unlimited [2]
- Fact most other Irish ISP's are the same and often have worse caps. [3]

All ISP's shouldn't be allowed to advertise unlimited unless they really are.
All ISP's should be made advertise their CAP up front.
All ISP's should be made advertise what action is taken if you go over the cap.

This is basically Comreg's policy which I posted a link to earlier.

bk wrote: »

[2] UPC use to seem to just operate a fair usage policy which seemed to be based on if you were on a very congested node and you were taking the piss, you would get a warning, that was fair enough. UPC have now crossed a line, were they seem to really just have a 250GB cap, which you get automatically charged €80 if you go over it.

This isn't a fair usage policy, this is an effective 250GB cap and UPC can't claim they are unlimited any longer, IMO .

UPC 'upgrade' offenders to a product which isn't even officially listed on their website. http://www.upc.ie/broadband/ and note no qualification anywhere on that page on the 'unlimited'[/QUOTE]

bk wrote: »

[3] In fairness, I haven't heard Magnet enforcing a fair usage policy on anyone and I think Eircom don't either, but I'm open to correction on that

The ironic thing is that Eircom have official caps which do they not seem to enforce while UPC 'dont have a cap' which they do enforce!!!!:rolleyes:

ComReg would like to advise consumers that any provision of a contract which sets usage thresholds, or describes what constitutes ‘fair’ or ‘acceptable’ use, should be clear and unambiguous, particularly where the service is described as being ‘unlimited’.

Usage thresholds or limits should be clearly set out, as should the manner in which they may be updated or amended.

ComReg expects each service provider to implement a clear, transparent and policy for dealing with customer usage above any set thresholds. The policy should set out the rules for contract termination, including penalties, the charges that shall apply for any use above the threshold/limit, and the policy regarding migration of the customer to other packages, if applicable.

http://www.askcomreg.ie/internet/my_provider_has_advertised_an_unlimited_package_%E2%80%93_what_does_that_mean_for_me.5.154.LE.asp

vibe666

JHMEG wrote: »

Broadband is not within the remit of Comreg. Or An Bord Pleanála or SIMI or Tesco. Broadband is not regulated in Ireland.

you might want to tell that to ComReg and the EU, they seem to disagree with you.

http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/09/953&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en

The European Commission today endorsed the Irish regulator's (ComReg) proposal to lower the prices charged by Eircom, the incumbent telecoms operator, to its competitors for granting access to its network and for migrating customers from one wholesale product to another. The proposed measures represent an important step towards facilitating direct investment in infrastructure and enhancing competition on the Irish broadband market.

comreg might not have any teeth, but they are the communications regulator in ireland and broadband (being a form of electronic communication amongst other things) is most certainly within their remit whether they like it or not.

bk

hightower1 wrote: »

I'm sure UPC would be delighted to label it with a 250 cap if every ISP was also forced to state their caps because everyone here seems to forget that every single ISP in Ireland all say their product is unlimited but in fact does have a limit.... why would UPC contest a blanket ruling to show caps when they are beating the pants off all the other ISP's cap wise. It'd be just another way for them to show off their superior specs. :cool:

You know, I initially agreed with you, but looking around the market, UPC seem to be the only major ISP who don't clearly state their cap on their site, so it would seem UPC have no excuse for not doing the same.

Eircom
Clearly state a 75GB cap up front, but don't say what happens if you go over it.

Vodafone
Clearly state a 100GB cap up front, but don't say what happens if you go over it.

UTV
State a 16GB cap, with an unlimited for an extra €5, they do have a fair usage on the unlimited and don't state what it is, so only half way there.

Magnet
Don't say anything about a cap, but also don't claim to be unlimited anywhere and from what I've heard never actually enforce any cap, so pretty fair.

Smart
Don't say they are unlimited anymore, but also don't say anything upfront about their 170GB cap.

Digiweb
Clearly state their caps up front, but don't say what happens if you go over it.

UPC
Claim to be unlimited (literally the only ISP to remain doing so), but effectively have a 250GB cap

So really UPC have no excuse for continuing to claim unlimited BB. It looks like much of the industry is getting there. Comreg should really just make the last bit of effort to make UPC do the same and also make them all detail clearly what happens if you go over.

zeris

bk wrote: »

[1] Really, most other countries don't even enforce fair usage policies on very heavy users. There was war in the US when Comcast tried trialing it.

Comcast trailed and have introduced a 250GB bandwidth cap. I don't know if they are still doing their DPI to throttle P2P.

For your "most other countries don't even enforce fair usage policies on very heavy users" your going have to show your work.

JHMEG

vibe666 wrote: »

you might want to tell that to ComReg and the EU, they seem to disagree with you.

http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/09/953&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=encomreg might not have any teeth, but they are the communications regulator in ireland and broadband (being a form of electronic communication amongst other things) is most certainly within their remit whether they like it or not.

That's forcing eircom to lower wholesale prices. Has nothing to do wth retail broadband.

It's been a while since I spoke to them but they told me they are not responsible for broadband.

IrishTonyO

Comreg are responsible for:-

Our remit covers all kinds of transmission networks including:

• Traditional telephone wire
• Traditional television and radio
• Radio Communications including fixed wireless
• MMDS and deflector operators providing TV services
• Mobile operators providing voice and data services
• Licensing Framework for Satellite Services in Ireland
• Postal delivery network

http://www.comreg.ie/about_us/roles_what_we_do.523.html

zeris

vibe666 wrote: »

you might want to tell that to ComReg and the EU, they seem to disagree with you.

http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/09/953&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=encomreg might not have any teeth, but they are the communications regulator in ireland and broadband (being a form of electronic communication amongst other things) is most certainly within their remit whether they like it or not.

Comreg regulate the cost of wholesale line rental and the cost of wholesale bitstream from Eircom. I am not sure about LLU, or if Comreg just regulate from the Eircom side.

Wireless and cable operators for example are not regulated by Comreg.

Nody

hightower1 wrote: »

We could get lucky and people might actually start reading what their signing for and stop being naive? :eek::D

You should see the comments in Rip of Ireland about mobile broadband and exceeding the 10GB monthly limit and because they consider it a rip off (yet signed the contract agreeing to it) that they should not have to pay it...

Jonathan

Nody wrote: »

You should see the comments in Rip of Ireland about mobile broadband and exceeding the 10GB monthly limit and because they consider it a rip off (yet signed the contract agreeing to it) that they should not have to pay it...

If you use your full cap, it costs the mobile operators a lot more than your subscription to provide the service.

bealtine

Jonathan wrote: »

If you use your full cap, it costs the mobile operators a lot more than your subscription to provide the service.

It costs exactly the same to provide under the cap and over the cap, so it costs exactly the same to provide the data regardless of cap. Any charging over the cap is just price gouging.

Jonathan

bealtine wrote: »

It costs exactly the same to provide under the cap and over the cap, so it costs exactly the same to provide the data regardless of cap. Any charging over the cap is just price gouging.

When did bandwidth and network infrastructure become free?

bealtine

Jonathan wrote: »

When did bandwidth and network infrastructure become free?

Who suggested that? The user still pays regardless of the cap.

It still costs exactly the same to provide the data before the cap as after the cap.

zeris

bealtine wrote: »

It costs exactly the same to provide under the cap and over the cap, so it costs exactly the same to provide the data regardless of cap. Any charging over the cap is just price gouging.

Technically you are correct. In reality it is more complicated.