Are we as a society taught to fear men?

Jenneke87

Sunday evening 22.15 I was walking home, dragging a 20 pound suitcase with me that contained stuff I needed for a photoshoot that day. I had managed to miss my last bus home and with no money for a taxi, decided I'd walk the 4 mile home. It wasn't that late yet and since I'm a fast walker, it should take no more that an hour/75 min, I reckoned. I think I was walking for about 10 minutes when a car pulled up beside me. The driver was a man whom I estimate was somewhere in his 40-ties, ordinairy looking and he offered me a lift. For a moment I hesitated. It would save me the long walk home hauling a heavy suitcase, but then I started to doubt. I remembered how my parents taught me never to go into a stranger's car,because you'll never know what they might do, magazines that tell you that men who do this are up to no good, you could end up raped and death somewhere.....Open any random magazine and you'll be bombared with stories of woman who were abused by their boyfriend/husband, movies portray it, it's on the news and the radio and so on.....

When I got home it got me thinking. Perhaps this man didn't had any dark intentions. Perhaps he really was sincere in helping me out. Was I right in mistrusting him or was it because society teaches us to fear people like this man, especially when they are men......?

I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on this.

Giselle

I fear men's possible dark intentions more than I fear those of women, because men are more likely to be able to physically overpower me. I am more vulnerable with an male stranger than I am with a female one.

Generally that is, but I accept not always.

I think the age of information overload has instilled a huge fear of crime and victimisation and men in general are victims of that.

They are especially (almost uniquely) the victims of paedo-hysteria.

That said, I wouldn't accept a lift from either a strange woman or a strange man.

miec

Hi Op

It is probable he was being helpful and therefore harmless but sadly the fear of taking that chance is too great because he could be that minority who carries out those dark deeds. The sad thing is you have no way of truly knowing so it is safer to assume the worst.

I do think that women are taught to fear men and the perceived threat of violence against women by men is over exaggerated and the actual threat of men attacking other men is under exaggerated. For instance if I had two teenage children, one male and one female, I would worry more about my son than my daughter because he is more likely to be beaten up, stabbed, etc, whereas society tends to focus on the dangers against women. I bet the vast majority of men here on boards has experienced some form of violence, possibly once, twice or even more. It is the rare man who has not experienced some form of violence.

Women are warned not to walk alone at night, to go in groups etc, that we could be raped at the drop of a hat by a stranger, yet the evidence suggests that it is lovers, exs, family members, friends or a husband who can pose a greater risk to the woman than a stranger.

aidan24326

Jenneke87 wrote: »

Sunday evening 22.15 I was walking home, dragging a 20 pound suitcase with me that contained stuff I needed for a photoshoot that day. I had managed to miss my last bus home and with no money for a taxi, decided I'd walk the 4 mile home. It wasn't that late yet and since I'm a fast walker, it should take no more that an hour/75 min, I reckoned. I think I was walking for about 10 minutes when a car pulled up beside me. The driver was a man whom I estimate was somewhere in his 40-ties, ordinairy looking and he offered me a lift. For a moment I hesitated. It would save me the long walk home hauling a heavy suitcase, but then I started to doubt. I remembered how my parents taught me never to go into a stranger's car,because you'll never know what they might do, magazines that tell you that men who do this are up to no good, you could end up raped and death somewhere.....Open any random magazine and you'll be bombared with stories of woman who were abused by their boyfriend/husband, movies portray it, it's on the news and the radio and so on.....

When I got home it got me thinking. Perhaps this man didn't had any dark intentions. Perhaps he really was sincere in helping me out. Was I right in mistrusting him or was it because society teaches us to fear people like this man, especially when they are men......?

I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on this.

Overall I think your post is a bit OTT. Not all men are out to get you, those types only make up a small minority. However, i do think you may have been right in this instance to refuse his offer. Chances are he was just an ordinary guy offering an innocent lift to a stranger, but it's hardly worth the risk for the sake of walking a couple of miles. If my girlfriend was offrered a lift by a random strangeer late at night I'd probably want her to say no thanks.

Elle Collins

No - We're taught by men to fear men.

For those who'll choose to find this assesment objectionable, I suggest a quick glance at the ever-rising sexual assault statistics in this country.

aidan24326

Elle Collins wrote: »

No - We're taught by men to fear men.

Sorry but that's just feminist nonsense. I thought we'd gone past that. You've been reading too much Germaine Greer. You don't need to fear anybody beacuse of gender. (there are, however, other good reasons). Come on in to the 21st century, it's great.

who the fug

The inverse is true, as I would not stop in case I be called creepy or a pervert etc

Elle Collins

aidan24326 wrote: »

Sorry but that's just feminist nonsense. I thought we'd gone past that. You've been reading too much Germaine Greer. You don't need to fear anybody beacuse of gender. (there are, however, other good reasons). Come on in to the 21st century, it's great.

You conveniently didn't repeat these words though, did you?

"For those who'll choose to find this assesment objectionable, I suggest a quick glance at the ever-rising sexual assault statistics in this country."

I don't need Germaine Greer or anyone else to tell me what it's like living as a woman in the 21st century. You need to take a look outside your own experience of life and realise how a great number of woman are caused real and legitimate fear by the actions of men every day.

The 21st century might be great for men but you might give a thought to what it's like for a woman. I've survived two rape attempts and agressive unwanted advances too numerous to count. The people who behaved this way towards me had two things in common: They were all strangers and they were all male.

aidan24326

Elle Collins wrote: »

You conveniently didn't repeat these words though, did you?

"For those who'll choose to find this assesment objectionable, I suggest a quick glance at the ever-rising sexual assault statistics in this country."

I don't need Germaine Greer or anyone else to tell me what it's like living as a woman in the 21st century. You need to take a look outside your own experience of life and realise how a great number of woman are caused real and legitimate fear by the actions of men every day.

The 21st century might be great for men but you might give a thought to what it's like for a woman. I've survived two rape attempts and agressive unwanted advances too numerous to count. The people who behaved this way towards me had two things in common: They were all strangers and they were all male.

I'm really sorry to hear that you had that happen to you. I can see why you might feel the way you do. But most guys aren't like that, so it would be a pity of your opinion of men was forever coloured by the experiences you've had (and to be honest I wouldn't entirely blame you if it was).

But I know lots of girls and I can't think of any who've endured rape attempts, at least not that I know of. I know one girl who has a pattern of dating sh1thead men, but that's at least partly her own fault for attracting the wrong types. So why do you think it is that you have had so much negative unwanted male attention, culminating in rape attempts? I'm not saying it's your fault or anything, but that does seem unusual. Men like that tend to prey on girls who already have low self-esteem. If that's not the caee with you then I apologise for the assumption.

vicecreamsundae

aidan24326 wrote: »

I'm really sorry to hear that you had that happen to you. I can see why you might feel the way you do. But most guys aren't like that, so it would be a pity of your opinion of men was forever coloured by the experiences you've had (and to be honest I wouldn't entirely blame you if it was).

But I know lots of girls and I can't think of any who've endured rape attempts, at least not that I know of. I know one girl who has a pattern of dating sh1thead men, but that's at least partly her own fault for attracting the wrong types. So why do you think it is that you have had so much negative unwanted male attention, culminating in rape attempts? I'm not saying it's your fault or anything, but that does seem unusual. Men like that tend to prey on girls who already have low self-esteem. If that's not the caee with you then I apologise for the assumption.

wow what a fcuked up assumption to make. are you ACTUALLY asking her to identify what it is about HER that ATTRACTED rapists?!?
it was probably just the fact she is a woman. i know many women who have been attacked or raped, and some of them were the most confident, secure women you could meet. to suggest that a woman with low self esteem "attracts that kind of attention" is disgusting.
when a woman is raped it is NOT because she is shy/quiet/loud/sexy/or anything else. it is because the man is a RAPIST.

with an attitude like yours, i can't imagine your female friends would be falling over themselves to share any of their negative experiences with you.


men rape.
men are the only ones who can stop rape.
nobody thinks all men are rapists, and of course i love men, but to say that women have been taught to fear men by men is absolutely correct. it is the actions of men that have caused some women to trust men less than women.
when men stop raping women, maybe i'll be happy to hop into a car with any guy who offers me a lift. but for now, i'll play it safe and not feel guilty or sexist for refusing to get into a car with a strange man.

me_right_one

vicecreamsundae wrote: »

wow what a fcuked up assumption to make. are you ACTUALLY asking her to identify what it is about HER that ATTRACTED rapists?!?
it was probably just the fact she is a woman. i know many women who have been attacked or raped, and some of them were the most confident, secure women you could meet. to suggest that a woman with low self esteem "attracts that kind of attention" is disgusting.
when a woman is raped it is NOT because she is shy/quiet/loud/sexy/or anything else. it is because the man is a RAPIST.

with an attitude like yours, i can't imagine your female friends would be falling over themselves to share any of their negative experiences with you.


Some men rape.
Rapists are the only ones who can stop rape.
nobody thinks all men are rapists, and of course i love men, but to say that women have been taught to fear men by men is absolutely correct. it is the actions of some men that have caused some women to trust men less than women.
when rapists stop raping women, maybe i'll be happy to hop into a car with any guy who offers me a lift. but for now, i'll play it safe and not feel guilty or sexist for refusing to get into a car with a strange man.

Good post. I just fixed a few bits there for you, after you going on about assumptions and all that;)

dsmythy

Elle Collins wrote: »

You conveniently didn't repeat these words though, did you?

"For those who'll choose to find this assesment objectionable, I suggest a quick glance at the ever-rising sexual assault statistics in this country."

I don't need Germaine Greer or anyone else to tell me what it's like living as a woman in the 21st century. You need to take a look outside your own experience of life and realise how a great number of woman are caused real and legitimate fear by the actions of men every day.

The 21st century might be great for men but you might give a thought to what it's like for a woman. I've survived two rape attempts and agressive unwanted advances too numerous to count. The people who behaved this way towards me had two things in common: They were all strangers and they were all male.

Sorry to hear after your unfortunate experiences. However if you are asking us to look at statistics then you will find them telling you that men are more likely to be assaulted randomly on a street than women are. Usually of course by other men. Murder rates will show this too.

Memnoch

I think it's sad that things have come to this. Have people become more evil and dangerous over the past 40-50 years, or is it just our perception?

The advent of modern media and technology while greatly enriching our lives has also engendered a kind of social isolation. What happened to the time where people spent their free time in parks and on walks, talking to their neighbours and belonging to communities? All that has been eroded.

Now we live in a culture of fear. So much to be afraid of, so much to go wrong. This is heightened and exploited by media, whether film, television or news, who profit from facilitating our obsession with what MIGHT go wrong. We've completely shackled ourselves. TRUST NO ONE. I'm not sure what is cause and effect anymore.

Sadly, things aren't at their worst... keep following this train of thought and logically, there is only one place we will end up...

http://aroomofourown.wordpress.com/2010/03/17/access/#comments

A penis is a ****ing weapon… and I AM a mother of 3 sons! My youngest is 5 and I can tell you, I never allow the older teen boys to bathe him, sleep in the same bed with him, see him naked, sit on their laps, babysit, wrestle or any interaction that involve more than a hug. Do I think my older sons will rape him? In my heart no ,but in my mind I know it can happen because they have a ****ing penis and a penis is a weapon. Might sound harsh to some but my job is to protect my kids even from each other. I was the same way when the older boys were younger… no staying over friends house were there are older boys or men. No staying over my brother’s house( my brother loves them and in my heart I know he would not hurt them, but he also has a penis which is a ****ing weapon. Only female doctors. Never fully trust any man with a penis. Not their father, uncles, teachers … no one.

I cannot even fathom how vigilant I would have been if my children were females.

What is most frightening is how the above isn't that far away from some of the things already mentioned in this thread.

AARRRGH

I think we are taught to fear strangers (in particular male strangers), and we know most violent crimes are commited by men, but personally I have had more "psycho" experiences with women than men. The women may not have been violent, but my god they were unstables bitches. So personally I would be a lot more worried about women then men. But I can understand why women in particular need to be careful around men, even men they know well, as most rapes are commited by people you know.

miec

You've been reading too much Germaine Greer.

I wouldn't knock Germaine Greer too much, in her book 'The Whole Woman' she argues that it is women who are taught to fear going out at night but that it is men who are actually assaulted more than women, she was arguing against the way the media focuses on the dangers posed to women and ignoring the actual dangers to men.

Having said that any person who has been raped or abused has not brought it on themselves because they had low self esteem etc, it is because the rapist in question wanted to rob them of their power.

A penis is a ****ing weapon… and I AM a mother of 3 sons! My youngest is 5 and I can tell you, I never allow the older teen boys to bathe him, sleep in the same bed with him, see him naked, sit on their laps, babysit, wrestle or any interaction that involve more than a hug. Do I think my older sons will rape him? In my heart no ,but in my mind I know it can happen because they have a ****ing penis and a penis is a weapon. Might sound harsh to some but my job is to protect my kids even from each other. I was the same way when the older boys were younger… no staying over friends house were there are older boys or men. No staying over my brother’s house( my brother loves them and in my heart I know he would not hurt them, but he also has a penis which is a ****ing weapon. Only female doctors. Never fully trust any man with a penis. Not their father, uncles, teachers … no one.

I cannot even fathom how vigilant I would have been if my children were females.

Comments like this deeply worry me, this woman attaches far too much power to the penis, it is not that fricking powerful. A man might be able to take my body in the hope to penetrate my mind and rob me of my power but I can choose to heal from it and overcome it, therefore returning my own power back to myself. A penis is just another human organ and it is time that women like this should cop on. Her attitude heightens this issue. I agree with other posters that we have to take a more balanced view to life and safety, if we just hide away we may as well give up.

Giselle

miec wrote: »

Comments like this deeply worry me, this woman attaches far too much power to the penis, it is not that fricking powerful. A man might be able to take my body in the hope to penetrate my mind and rob me of my power but I can choose to heal from it and overcome it, therefore returning my own power back to myself. A penis is just another human organ and it is time that women like this should cop on. Her attitude heightens this issue. I agree with other posters that we have to take a more balanced view to life and safety, if we just hide away we may as well give up.

So, so, soo easy to say.

One's ability to choose the depth and quality of healing is dependent on many factors. Its not a choice one simply does or does not make.

The woman quoted is unhealthily fixated however.

Exile 1798

Jenneke87 wrote: »

Sunday evening 22.15 I was walking home, dragging a 20 pound suitcase with me that contained stuff I needed for a photoshoot that day. I had managed to miss my last bus home and with no money for a taxi, decided I'd walk the 4 mile home. It wasn't that late yet and since I'm a fast walker, it should take no more that an hour/75 min, I reckoned. I think I was walking for about 10 minutes when a car pulled up beside me. The driver was a man whom I estimate was somewhere in his 40-ties, ordinairy looking and he offered me a lift. For a moment I hesitated. It would save me the long walk home hauling a heavy suitcase, but then I started to doubt. I remembered how my parents taught me never to go into a stranger's car,because you'll never know what they might do, magazines that tell you that men who do this are up to no good, you could end up raped and death somewhere.....Open any random magazine and you'll be bombared with stories of woman who were abused by their boyfriend/husband, movies portray it, it's on the news and the radio and so on.....

When I got home it got me thinking. Perhaps this man didn't had any dark intentions. Perhaps he really was sincere in helping me out. Was I right in mistrusting him or was it because society teaches us to fear people like this man, especially when they are men......?

I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on this.

We tell our children not to talk to strangers. Why? Most people are decent.

If a child is lost and approaches a stranger for help there is an overwhelming chance that that stranger is trustworthy. However, if a stranger approaches a child then the likelihood of that stranger having bad intent is much higher then if the child randomly selected someone.

The same if a woman asks a strange man for help she almost certainly will receive it without any trouble as most men are good and decent. However in the case of a strange man approaching a woman to offer his help the simple probability that that man has ill intent is much higher, although still relatively low.

So I think your natural instinct to be cautious at someone who approaches you is quite correct, and doesn't mean that you have a fear of men in general.

Kiwi_knock

As kids we are taught not to talk to strangers but this is typically meant to mean not to talk to men you do not mean. Parents seem to see no harm in placing more trust in females with their children than males. This conception is based on the media, you hear most weeks of males arrested for inappropriate behaviour with young children. This media coverage have led all parents and most children to view any strange adult (with particular emphasis on mlaes) who talks to kids has having an ulterior disturbing motive. Long gone are the trustworthy days were you would let your kid wander off for hours and know he was safe. Most parents know keep a watchful eye on the childrens activities and then when they get older they use a mobile to stay in contact. We as a society are taught to fear strangers in particular men.

There is a widespread fear of strangers nowadays when you get older, which seems rather silly to be saying. People scared of other people when your an adult should be ridiculed but they are not. Instead it is commonplace that you fear the unknown people, you always feel wary around people you do not know. A defense mechanism sets in and you formulate ways of getting out of a particular scary situation for you. This fear of people has been created by the media. You hear daily of people killed randomly outside their houses, these stories make you feel scared within your own environment. Every stranger near your area is a potential attacker. The stories of people killed by so called samaritans (people offering you help with a ulterior motive) make you feel uneasy when some stranger approaches you with an offer of help. You go into defensive mode until you can determine that their motive is honest. However these days it his so hard to determine if someone is being benevolent or is there malevolent undertones.

Basically the media has fostered in society a feeling that you can not trust strangers because their motives are often unclear.

prinz

who the fug wrote: »

The inverse is true, as I would not stop in case I be called creepy or a pervert etc

This.

Have been at the receiving end of those names a couple for simple acts like offering to help a girl with luggage, asking a crying girl if she was alright etc.

Just from a different angle, being a man. I'm tall, skinny, and physically rather weak.

I've had more violent attacks from women in my life than from men. Sure, I've been beaten rather badly by 7 guys one time, and I've been put in hospital from a mugging in Australia (also by a guy), but overall the number of times I've been attacked (without serious cause) have been from women more so than men.

Sure, some men are dangerous. But so too are some women. This blanket sign that women place on men is traditional. Give us another thirty years, and its likely women will have a similar reputation. Maybe not for rape, but for senseless group violence/attacks.

Exile 1798

Deleted User wrote: »

Just from a different angle, being a man. I'm tall, skinny, and physically rather weak.

I've had more violent attacks from women in my life than from men. Sure, I've been beaten rather badly by 7 guys one time, and I've been put in hospital from a mugging in Australia (also by a guy), but overall the number of times I've been attacked (without serious cause) have been from women more so than men.

Sure, some men are dangerous. But so too are some women. This blanket sign that women place on men is traditional. Give us another thirty years, and its likely women will have a similar reputation. Maybe not for rape, but for senseless group violence/attacks.

Your experience is atypical.

Male on male violence is the most common form of serious assault followed by male on female.

I think it's highly unlikely that women will earn a reputation for the kind of random, senseless violence that men have a reputation for. Yes there's a cultural element, but it's also an instinctual aspect in maleness.

Exile 1798

Exile 1798 wrote: »

Your experience is atypical.

Male on male violence is the most common form of serious assault followed by male on female.

I think it's highly unlikely that women will earn a reputation for the kind of random, senseless violence that men have a reputation for. Yes there's a cultural element, but it's also an instinctual aspect in maleness.

Why? The numbers of assault instigated by women has been on the rise for years. Just as the recognition of abuse in the home by women towards men has also finally been accepted, and has started to be acted upon. There is a cultural perception that women are not violent by nature which is not true, any more so that men are more prone to violence. Sure.. if you base it entirely on past statistics recorded by gender you can show more men being involved, but these statistics don't show the lack of reports made against women, or the level of response by official sources made by men.

There have been threads in the past on boards.ie regarding spousal abuse by women towards men and the reactions (or lack thereof) of official sources to such claims. Our society pushes forth the idea that women are vulnerable and men are aggressive. Which is plainly not true.

As for this instinctual response, I've never felt it... its just another old fashioned generalisation that has never been updated to modern standards. Unless you can show me some research done in the last few years which supports your statement, and please don't send me military reports. They're hardly representative of the general population.

Exile 1798

Just because some women are violent and some men are not at all doesn't discredit the perception.

You say you haven't felt the male instinctual pull to violence in yourself, but you've surely observed it growing up, at school and in the streets of Cork.

Victor

Elle Collins wrote: »

The 21st century might be great for men but you might give a thought to what it's like for a woman. I've survived two rape attempts and agressive unwanted advances too numerous to count. The people who behaved this way towards me had two things in common: They were all strangers and they were all male.

And as a child I was kidnapped by a woman and (other than those by my peers) all my greatest humiliations were by women.

So, different experiences, that prove nothing about whole populations.

Exile 1798

Exile 1798 wrote: »

Just because some women are violent and some men are not at all doesn't discredit the perception.

It doesn't? Why?

You say you haven't felt the male instinctual pull to violence in yourself, but you've surely observed it growing up, at school and in the streets of Cork.

Ahh school... I grew up in Athlone. I was bullied in both schools I went to. Was put in hospital three times by the age of 12. I never shave my head, considering the host of scars I have. So, yes, I can safely say I have experienced it firsthand. IS it worth mentioning that my sister had similar experiences to myself from the hands of girls in her school(s)?

But the interesting thing about school was that it only took one fight (aged 17) to show that I had learned to defend myself to stop all the aggression. (Admittedly putting the boy in hospital, but hey, if thats what it takes?) The truly unfortunate thing is that when attacked by a woman, I'm unable to employ similar defensive measures due to the perception that women need to be nurtured and protected (regardless of the manner of heir attack).

As for the streets of Cork or any other streets... I've already stated that I've had more violent encounters with women than men, but that was.... atypical.

The thing I find so "funny" is that for all the talk about equality, its amazing the area's that women are unwilling to consider being our equals in.

Victor

http://aroomofourown.wordpress.com/2010/03/17/access/#comments

A penis is a ****ing weapon… and I AM a mother of 3 sons! My youngest is 5 and I can tell you, I never allow the older teen boys to bathe him, sleep in the same bed with him, see him naked, sit on their laps, babysit, wrestle or any interaction that involve more than a hug. Do I think my older sons will rape him? In my heart no ,but in my mind I know it can happen because they have a ****ing penis and a penis is a weapon. Might sound harsh to some but my job is to protect my kids even from each other. I was the same way when the older boys were younger… no staying over friends house were there are older boys or men. No staying over my brother’s house( my brother loves them and in my heart I know he would not hurt them, but he also has a penis which is a ****ing weapon. Only female doctors. Never fully trust any man with a penis. Not their father, uncles, teachers … no one.

I cannot even fathom how vigilant I would have been if my children were females.

I have to ask, is that androphobia or homophobia?

(under the flimsy auspices of never having suspected the male in question to be capable of rape, despite his possessing all the equipment necessary to do so).

And all women are prostitutes because the have the necessary equipment? Hardly.

Exile 1798 wrote: »

The same if a woman asks a strange man for help she almost certainly will receive it without any trouble as most men are good and decent. However in the case of a strange man approaching a woman to offer his help the simple probability that that man has ill intent is much higher, although still relatively low.

I've found myself saying "hello" to toddlers on the bus and helping lost tourists with their maps, but all too often people shy away from this.

Exile 1798 wrote: »

I think it's highly unlikely that women will earn a reputation for the kind of random, senseless violence that men have a reputation for. Yes there's a cultural element, but it's also an instinctual aspect in maleness.

Which is more relevant to modern violence - instinct or drinking 5-15 pints?

Victor

Victor wrote: »

http://aroomofourown.wordpress.com/2010/03/17/access/#commentsI have to ask, is that androphobia or homophobia?

God, that's disturbing.

Exile 1798

Deleted User wrote: »

It doesn't? Why?

Ahh school... I grew up in Athlone. I was bullied in both schools I went to. Was put in hospital three times by the age of 12. I never shave my head, considering the host of scars I have. So, yes, I can safely say I have experienced it firsthand. IS it worth mentioning that my sister had similar experiences to myself from the hands of girls in her school(s)?

But the interesting thing about school was that it only took one fight (aged 17) to show that I had learned to defend myself to stop all the aggression. (Admittedly putting the boy in hospital, but hey, if thats what it takes?) The truly unfortunate thing is that when attacked by a woman, I'm unable to employ similar defensive measures due to the perception that women need to be nurtured and protected (regardless of the manner of heir attack).

As for the streets of Cork or any other streets... I've already stated that I've had more violent encounters with women than men, but that was.... atypical.

The thing I find so "funny" is that for all the talk about equality, its amazing the area's that women are unwilling to consider being our equals in.

In case you were unsure, I'm a man.

The only thing I believe that is unfair to men on the topic of male violence is how little realisation there is that most of the victims of that violence are men themselves. There is endless concern for women, but as someone said earlier in the thread knowledgeable parents are more concerned about their sons then their daughters when they go out and about. I certainly would be.

I got into fights at school and yes, if you showed you could stand up for yourself they ended. Chimpanzees do the same thing.

I couldn't count the number of times as a young man I had blokes attempt to provoke me into a fight in public. Luckily I'd evolved to the point where my mind could do a logical cost/benefit analysis of the value of getting into a fight with some guy on the street. I could overcome the overwhelming urge I had to want smash in the face of the guy who had just purposefully blown his cigarette smoke into mine.

Similar has happened to me in three continents - Europe, North America and Australia. I can't say I've ever encountered this behavior from women, and yes it would be quite atypical.

Elle Collins

aidan24326 wrote: »

...I know lots of girls and I can't think of any who've endured rape attempts, at least not that I know of. I know one girl who has a pattern of dating sh1thead men, but that's at least partly her own fault for attracting the wrong types. So why do you think it is that you have had so much negative unwanted male attention, culminating in rape attempts? I'm not saying it's your fault or anything, but that does seem unusual. Men like that tend to prey on girls who already have low self-esteem. If that's not the caee with you then I apologise for the assumption.

It is actually beneath me to respond to this.

Elle Collins

dsmythy wrote: »

Sorry to hear after your unfortunate experiences. However if you are asking us to look at statistics then you will find them telling you that men are more likely to be assaulted randomly on a street than women are. Usually of course by other men. Murder rates will show this too.

And this knowledge is supposed to make women more comfortable around men..... how exactly?

Elle Collins

vicecreamsundae wrote: »

...with an attitude like yours, i can't imagine your female friends would be falling over themselves to share any of their negative experiences with you.


men rape.
men are the only ones who can stop rape.
nobody thinks all men are rapists, and of course i love men, but to say that women have been taught to fear men by men is absolutely correct. it is the actions of men that have caused some women to trust men less than women.
when men stop raping women, maybe i'll be happy to hop into a car with any guy who offers me a lift. but for now, i'll play it safe and not feel guilty or sexist for refusing to get into a car with a strange man.

Thank you for your post vicecreamsundae. You know, I think men would be very very surprised if they knew the true percentage of women who have at any time been sexually molested by a man. The statistics tell us that one in four people (this is including women and men) have been sexually abused, but in my experience the percentage is FAR higher among women. I could give dozens of examples of this, the most recent one being a dinner I had with three women I know. Two of these women were older than my by two and three decades respectively and the other was younger by about five years (I'm mid-thirtes). We all had dinner and a few drinks and got talking about the experiences of our lives. Long story short, of that one in four situation, I was the only one who hadn't been raped, and only because I was lucky enough to have fought my attackers off.

There is nothing surprising in any of this for me. I've heard stories like this so often I'm sorry to say it's become as routine as being told somebody is planning a fortnight in Spain. Another recent example is an early-forties friend of mine who two months ago was spiked in the early hours of the morning at a house party in her own sisters home. She collapsed after three drinks and woke up on her sisters sofa at around 4.30am being raped by a male guest at the party. As she came to conciousness and tried to push him off he slapped and bit her back and neck repetitively and so hard through her clothes that she was brusied for two weeks. She then collapsed again and woke again to see him walking out the door. She took a violently hysterical reaction, had no idea where she was (while she was in her own sisters home!) rang a taxi company screaming that she didn't know where she was but she had to get out of there.

Long story short, she was drugged and raped that night, but did she report it? - did she hell as like, because she knew what was ahead of her if she did because shock-horror - she had consumed alcohol and was wearing a short skirt.

One of the major reasons men don't know how widespread sexual abuse experiences are among their own sisters, mothers, partners and daughters is because women know that on divulging them they will find themselves on the recieving end of the sort of offensive and derogotory 'you must have had it coming' comments as have been evidenced on this thread.

K-9

Elle Collins wrote: »

One of the major reasons men don't know how widespread sexual abuse experiences are among their own sisters, mothers, partners and daughters is because women know that on divulging them they will find themselves on the recieving end of the sort of offensive and derogotory 'you must have had it coming' comments as have been evidenced on this thread.

I'd find women much harsher on the "she had it coming" comments.

dsmythy

Elle Collins wrote: »

And this knowledge is supposed to make women more comfortable around men..... how exactly?

It's always going to be a natural occurrence that men are in general more sexually and physically aggressive than women. However for women to fear men is ridiculous since most cases of stranger violence is man on man.

I don't doubt what you have said in a further post about women being approached by men. From puberty onwards most women do have to contend with various approaches from various men looking for one thing. Whether that should extend into fear is another thing.

Zombrex

Elle Collins wrote: »

No - We're taught by men to fear men.

Don't you mean woman are taught by the tiny subset of men who assault women to fear men?

Imagine how wrong it would sound if someone said "We're taught by black people to fear black people"

Yet for some reason it seems socially acceptable to generalize all men.

Permabear

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Permabear

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Lockstep

donegalfella wrote: »

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I remember you posting about this before but I'm unable to find the link; you expanded on the point a bit regarding what counted as abuse, could you do so again here?
It was a very interesting read.

Elle Collins

dsmythy wrote: »

It's always going to be a natural occurrence that men are in general more sexually and physically aggressive than women.

And so it is ok for men to be inappropriately sexually aggressive because this, in your view, is a "natural occurrence"?

dsmythy wrote: »

I don't doubt what you have said in a further post about women being approached by men. From puberty onwards most women do have to contend with various approaches from various men looking for one thing. Whether that should extend into fear is another thing.

I was not talking about men approaching women chancing their arm with a view to consensual sex; I was talking about men approaching women with an attitude of entitlement to women's bodies, as if their wanting to have sex with them equated to some sort of right, and a woman's refusal was some sort of intolerable impertinence. I have experienced this personally many times and witnessed other women experiencing it also. In these situations where men are turned down sexually they (not always, but frequently) react with vicious aggressive belligerence. Why should this approach provoke fear? - It provokes fear because a woman knows damn well that if a man is prepared to behave like that in a crowded public place she'd have a hell of a lot more to worry about if she was alone with the same man in private. And then other men wonder why women are curt and impolite when approached by men they don't know in pubs and nightclubs...

dsmythy wrote: »

However if you are asking us to look at statistics then you will find them telling you that men are more likely to be assaulted randomly on a street than women are.

You are talking about physical violence - I am talking about sexual assault. I don’t think we need to debate about which gender is more likely to get raped.

dsmythy wrote: »

However for women to fear men is ridiculous since most cases of stranger violence is man on man.

By your rationale and that of some others who have posted on this thread, a woman ought to be scared of men, but confine or curtail her fear towards those men she knows personally, since the majority of sexual attackers are known to the victim. This is what statistics tell us, I concede that, but it has not been my experience personally. I am naturally cautious of men I don’t know since experience has taught me to be. Regardless whether a woman is fearful of men she knows or men she doesn't know, she is still fearful of men, and has damn good reason to be.

I don't pretend though that many man haven't also gotten unfairly smeared here in terms of their character or likely behaviour, but they've got their own gender to thank for that, not women.

There is an animalistic pack mentality that emerges among some men when it comes to raping women, and while I am relieved to say I do not believe the majority of men would be willing to rape a woman, nor do I agree that it is "a tiny subset" who would be. Anyone who thinks it is only a tiny random subset of men who get off on sexual violence against women should maybe try telling that to the thirteen year old girl who was gang-raped by six older teenaged males in Kildare recently. How does the "tiny subset" camp explain this? - did six members of the same tiny subset just happen to meet up and decide to go looking for a female to rape? No, they were six teenaged males who happened to be in the same place at the same time, so common logic would have you ask how tiny a subset could male rapists be. Lotto winners, now there's a tiny subset of the population - anyone ever heard of six of those running into each other at a house party?

Permabear

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Elle Collins

donegalfella wrote: »

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Lifetime Experience of Sexual Abuse and Assault
• Women: More than four in ten (42 per cent) of women reported
some form of sexual abuse or assault in their lifetime. The most
serious form of abuse, penetrative abuse, was experienced by 10 per
cent of women. Attempted penetration or contact abuse was
experienced by 21 per cent, with a further 10 per cent experiencing
non-contact abuse.
The Savi Report

Lockstep

donegalfella wrote: »

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Thanks mate, you mentioned something else about being denied use of the car as abuse too. Interesting stuff.

Elle Collins

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Thanks mate, you mentioned something else about being denied use of the car as abuse too. Interesting stuff.

Maybe you should read The Savi Report. Clearly it won't suit your agenda, but there's a lot of "interesting stuff" in there too.

Permabear

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Valmont

I read all of the SAVI report and I agree with DF. I am suspicious as to why they did not explicitly define terms such as "non-contact" abuse or even include the questions contained in their survey. Having some experience authoring a research paper I am surprised at the lack of clarity or transparency in their methodology section. A study of this magnitude should definitely have elaborated further on their sampling methods and the rationale for the study.

Another worrying factor was the comment stating that the 71% of randomly phoned individuals who participated indicated that the sample was "broadly representative" of Irish society. What does "broadly" representative mean? Did they stratify their sample according to gender or ethnicity or any other factors? Why didn't they address the fallibility of memory? Were the survey questions they used leading in any way? What were they survey questions? What were the ethical safety nets? The very fact that these issues weren't even addressed leads me to conclude that they weren't even considered in great detail.

Elle, I know you think we have an agenda but I'm afraid that it isn't the case. I've never been presented with any persuasive argument to suggest that the 1 in 4 statistic is true and the SAVI study is no different. I feel genuinely bad for actual abuse victims given the current trend of rendering the concept of "abuse" so flexible as to be almost meaningless.

dsmythy

Elle Collins wrote: »

And so it is ok for men to be inappropriately sexually aggressive because this, in your view, is a "natural occurrence"?

There is an animalistic pack mentality that emerges among some men when it comes to raping women, and while I am relieved to say I do not believe the majority of men would be willing to rape a woman, nor do I agree that it is "a tiny subset" who would be. Anyone who thinks it is only a tiny random subset of men who get off on sexual violence against women should maybe try telling that to the thirteen year old girl who was gang-raped by six older teenaged males in Kildare recently. How does the "tiny subset" camp explain this? - did six members of the same tiny subset just happen to meet up and decide to go looking for a female to rape? No, they were six teenaged males who happened to be in the same place at the same time, so common logic would have you ask how tiny a subset could male rapists be.

It's a natural occurence, but one that can be controlled. If someone chooses not to control it then they should be punished for their actions.

The mob mentality you talk about extends well beyond sexual violence into general violence. It's not uniquely sexual in nature. As for that particular incident you speak of I'd be interested in the cultural origins of the attackers in that case. Gang rape is extremely rare in Ireland.

Lockstep

Elle Collins wrote: »

Maybe you should read The Savi Report. Clearly it won't suit your agenda, but there's a lot of "interesting stuff" in there too.

Unfortunately, I do not have an "agenda". I merely read a very interesting article by DF on how abuse is misinterepreted or misapplied.

Elle Collins

Valmont wrote: »

Elle, I know you think we have an agenda but I'm afraid that it isn't the case. I've never been presented with any persuasive argument to suggest that the 1 in 4 statistic is true...

Well I have Valmont. The most persuasive argument I've ever been presented with doesn't come from the Savi report or any report; it comes from the HUGE percentage of women I've known in my life who've been abused either in childhood or adulthood or both - by men - in ALL cases. I also know a smaller amount of men who've been abused by - that's right - you guessed it - men again! Pity we're not playing 'guess the gender' for money - we'd all be on to a sure thing.

And as for Dsmythy's response, that basically boils down to 'Irish men don't gang rape so lets blame the foreigners'...Sweet Jesus...

Here's news: When a woman is being gang-raped she doesn't give a sh!t about the cultural origins of the penis's that are being shoved into her vagina/mouth/anus. She gives a sh!t about the fact that she is being gang-raped - end of story. You cannot neatly shift the blame from Irish men to foreign men and if you think you can you are missing the point, which is that this particular type of violence is perpetrated overwhelmingly by males - where they come from is an irrelevance. Several years back a close friend of mine was gang-raped by a group of rugby supporters in an Irish hotel. I'm quite sure she was not comforted by the fact that they were Irish.

I have to assume people who ignore or dismiss sex abuse statistics simply don't want them to be true. There's no other rational reason why anybody would ignore the same figures turning up over and over in study after study unless they simply didn't want to believe them. I find that very disheartening, because nothing's going to change while decent men keep their heads stuck in the sand.

And speaking of decent men keeping their heads stuck in the sand, I was called for jury duty a year or two back. Three cases were being heard, all were rape cases. In one particularly horrific case some scumbag had raped a young Polish woman repeatedly and taken photographs of her naked body on his camera phone. Long story short, he got something in the region of fifteen years for what he put her through, and as he was being lead out of court he was warmly hugged and patted on the back by a group of men. It made my stomach turn over. Watching what I was watching, knowing that they had listened, as I had, to the details of that case, I wanted to vomit.

I'm finding this thread really quite fcuking amazing to be honest - it's one thing to experience and witness sexual assault and sexually aggressive behaviour by male strangers as routine - it's another to have a load of male strangers tell you it doesn't actually happen as routine! :eek: Don't tell me about the experience of being a woman in Ireland please, because, being male, you simply don't know the first thing about it.

Zombrex

Elle Collins wrote: »

Well I have Valmont. The most persuasive argument I've ever been presented with doesn't come from the Savi report or any report; it comes from the HUGE percentage of women I've known in my life who've been abused either in childhood or adulthood or both - by men - in ALL cases.

That is a bit of a silly comment to make. What makes you think the women you have known in your life are an accurate representation society as a whole?

Are you going out of your way to ensure the people you meet are a statistical representation of all demographics?

That sort of thing is why we have proper statistical studies in the first place (which the Savi report seems to have fallen down in particular areas based on the comments here, though I haven't studied it myself in detail)

You complain about people having an agenda but then assume the wider demographic should represent your own personal experience. Isn't that having an agenda in of itself?

Also isn't assuming everyone who disagrees with you, or points out flaws in the gathering of statistics to support your position, is biased against the idea of male violence towards women also an agenda?

Elle Collins

Wicknight wrote: »

Also isn't assuming everyone who disagrees with you, or points out flaws in the gathering of statistics to support your position, is biased against women also an agenda?

Where did I say anyone who disagrees with me is biased against women? I never said that and I don't believe it either. I believe that those who persistently refuse to accept the findings of research studies into sexual abuse are stubbornly biased against the findings themselves. This attitude could occur for many reasons, and perhaps the majority of them not sinister at all. There are a lot of decent men out there who simply don't want to believe how rampant the urge to sexually abuse is amongst their gender, and the unfortunate thing is that, by way of the shameful nature of the crime, they are not being presented evidence by the women they know that would very firmly contradict their viewpoint.

For example, the woman I mentioned a couple of posts back who was raped two months ago at a house party has a partner and two adult sons. She told none of them. There is an example of three men who do not know what happened to the woman closest to them in their lives, so don't be so sure you don't know a female victim yourself because men are generally the last people we women feel comfortable discussing this with.

Zombrex

Elle Collins wrote: »

I believe that those who persistently refuse to accept the findings of research studies into sexual abuse are stubbornly biased against the findings themselves.

Has it occurred to you that they don't accept the findings of a report because they think the report is bad?

I spend 5 minutes looking at the questions of the SAVI report and already I can see significant questions about the conclusions they draw.

For example they seem to be counting anyone under the age of 17 who has ever seen another person's genitals or had their genitals touched as being a victim of child abuse.

I can't find any where where they make the distinction between child abuse and normal sexual experimentation. I would have answered yes to a good number of the questions but I have never been sexually abused.

Now again I haven't studied the report in detail, but I can certain see why people reading it might on initial inspection go "Umm, hang on a minute..."

Elle Collins wrote: »

There are a lot of decent men out there who simply don't want to believe how rampant the urge to sexually abuse is amongst their gender

Ummm, do you actually have statistics to show how "rampant" the urge to sexually abuse is amongst my gender?

In other words, statistics demonstrating the percentage of men who have abused women, rather than the percentage of women abused by men?

Or is that simply a conclusion you are drawing yourself?

Valmont

Elle Collins wrote: »

There are a lot of decent men out there who simply don't want to believe how rampant the urge to sexually abuse is amongst their gender

That comment is incredibly offensive. An urge to sexually abuse? The very idea is ludicrous and I refuse to listen to any more of your gender stereotyping, fantasies of gender persecution, and conspiracy theories; yes, that's right, all of your 'studies' amount to nothing more than a conspiracy to victimise women and criminalise men for the very fact that they are men.