Do you struggle with your religion.

Canis Lupus

In the "what do you think of atheists" thread Fanny made a comment "Atheism still raise some huge challenges, but on the whole I have seen these been answered (or themselves challenged to the extent that one can "doubt the doubt") to my satisfaction."

My reply got deleted as I assume as it was OT but are you 100% happy with your faith/belief or do you have niggles like FC and what are they and what convinced you they didn't/don't matter?

Just interested to know what 'doubts' if any bother you the most about the belief you have in your god if that's not too personal question to ask.

Fanny Cradock

I think everybody struggles with their faith or components of it at one time or another. It is analogous to any relationship - there are always highs and lows.

Glenster

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Just interested to know what 'doubts' if any bother you the most about the belief you have in your god if that's not too personal question to ask.

Everyone doubts,

In 'of fear and trembling' Kirkegaard says that to doubt but follow gods law is the noblest thing of all.

Faith which does not doubt is dead faith - Miguel de Unamuno

Voltaire said that certainty was absurd. And he was well smart.

Canis Lupus

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I think everybody struggles with their faith or components of it at one time or another. It is analogous to any relationship - there are always highs and lows.

Right so nothing specific. There's no... piece of the jigsaw that just seemingly doesn't want to fit no matter what way you mash at it?

EDIT: hometime for me.

antiskeptic

Canis Lupus wrote: »

My reply got deleted as I assume as it was OT but are you 100% happy with your faith/belief or do you have niggles like FC and what are they and what convinced you they didn't/don't matter?

Just interested to know what 'doubts' if any bother you the most about the belief you have in your god if that's not too personal question to ask.

The "Faith - the evidence of things not seen" thread attempts to point out the equivilence between faith and evidence. The person believing in the existance of God because of evidence - in the same way they believe in lot's of other things.

And so, a simplisitic, 1st base, way to see it is that once provided with evidence of Gods existance, you can't doubt the existance of God again. Once you know something you can't unknow it - in other words.

A more considered evaluation of faith steps complexity levels up a notch. We have seen faith = a substance as it were, it's evidential qualities fueling a persons belief (that God exists or Christ is Lord). But this fuels octane rating/calorific value can vary. It can be high octane/high calorific value - and when it is, people are empowered to demonstrate incredible strength: be it refusing to recant, so as to prevent torture and death (as Martin Luther risked). Or taking on the vested interests of society in order to change society (such as William Wilberforce did).

But faith's octane rating/calorific value can wane too. And the person can become doubtful, weak, ineffective, downcast. Faith comes from God and God should be seen as the refueling station for faith.

Personally I don't have any doubt that God exists, loves me, has saved me .. But the strength of those beliefs can wax and wane, can move from raging fire to glowing embers - depending on the quality of my faith. But even at glowing embers my certainty remains in that realm - certain.

Fanny Cradock

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Right so nothing specific. There's no... piece of the jigsaw that just seemingly doesn't want to fit no matter what way you mash at it?

EDIT: hometime for me.

For me? No, I don't think so. But that is not to say it always has been such. There was a time in my life where I didn't know what I believed or what was reasonable to believe. I'm now much happier in my faith now there is some substance to it.

I should add that the challenges I encounter are generally about the specifics - the "whys" - rather than some fundamental aspect such as whether God exists. This is not to say that I have not considered such a possibility, but I guess I come down in inverse proportions to atheist bus campaign. There probably is a God...

antiskeptic

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Right so nothing specific. There's no... piece of the jigsaw that just seemingly doesn't want to fit no matter what way you mash at it?

One of the most overwhelming things that dawned on me in my early days of belief was the dawning realisation of why is was the world is in the shambolic state it is in. A simple, 3 letter word explained it all

Sin.

Up to then it could only be explained by an endless mish-mashing of: sociology, psychology, geopolitics, economics, upbringing, education, power balances, culture, historical baggage, fashion, zeitgeist, etc/

If ever there was a jigsaw that will never be mashed together - no matter how long people spend trying and no matter how many new -ologies are created to investigate mankind then "the reasons why the world is in the shambolic state it's in" is it.

philologos

OP: From time to time I have doubts. I don't think this is particular to Christians however, I'm sure there are many in the other forum who have had doubts about their position. I'm better off for my doubts because they help me to think and resolve such doubts in the future. I think every new Christian goes through a phase of it, and as they resolve and resolve more and more issues they become better able to deal with this doubt.

Stephentlig

antiskeptic wrote: »

One of the most overwhelming things that dawned on me in my early days of belief was the dawning realisation of why is was the world is in the shambolic state it is in. A simple, 3 letter word explained it all

Sin.

Up to then it could only be explained by an endless mish-mashing of: sociology, psychology, geopolitics, economics, upbringing, education, power balances, culture, historical baggage, fashion, zeitgeist, etc/

If ever there was a jigsaw that will never be mashed together - no matter how long people spend trying and no matter how many new -ologies are created to investigate mankind then "the reasons why the world is in the shambolic state it's in" is it.

I once heard it said that if there was no human mind, there would be no problem.

Nature is rebelling because of our sin, and until we listen to Gods Gospel of love, it will continue to rebel and we are to blame for our own natural tragedy. and to think that my horrible sin contributed to the likes of Haiti, really sickens me and gives me a deeper desire to repent and and strive for perfection.

Doubting God is offensive to him, I do my best to avoid this.
I pray to God to increase my faith every day.

Pax Christi
Stephen<3

lmaopml

Canis Lupus wrote: »

In the "what do you think of atheists" thread Fanny made a comment "Atheism still raise some huge challenges, but on the whole I have seen these been answered (or themselves challenged to the extent that one can "doubt the doubt") to my satisfaction."

My reply got deleted as I assume as it was OT but are you 100% happy with your faith/belief or do you have niggles like FC and what are they and what convinced you they didn't/don't matter?

Just interested to know what 'doubts' if any bother you the most about the belief you have in your god if that's not too personal question to ask.

Hi Canis Lupis,

Yes, I am a terrible doubter of almost everything...it's in my nature I guess, and I can't change it....It took me a while to recognise who was banging my door down and wouldn't go away..lol.... I tend to work my way through my faith...I've looked at lots..lol....I would say I'm a work in progress and am very mean about who's in the driving seat...it has to be me at all times, afterall it's my journey, my faith, my soul, and I don't want to dig my heels in with unnecessary stuff, or be too dogmatic about something I may not be quite too sure about iykwim. It's hard to explain in a paraghraph or two but I guess I find it difficult to take anything at face value..and I love the expression 'doubt the doubters'.......Very Cool! I can identify with that....it's where I began; I'm still on my journey and I'm not one bit sorry I started out...

Canis Lupus

I find it interesting to myself (not poking fun) that I never doubt my doubt. It's utterly unwavable because unless he pops out of thin air in front of me and high fives me (with a drawn out heeeeeeeeeeey) then I don't believe he exists.

Do I have a potentially lighter mind not having to worry about this question I wonder. Do you think the possibility of life as an atheist would be easier and more carefree?

PDN

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Do you think the possibility of life as an atheist would be easier and more carefree?

Been there, done that, worn the t-shirt.

Life was neither easy nor carefree.

lmaopml

I don't know Canis Lupus, I guess we're all just different...Personally, I believe you are entitled to identify yourself by your atheism and ponder it or discuss it and what it means to you, as much as I did when I was one....

I reserve the right to change my mind though and likewise don't make excuses to anybody for it....I'm no better now than I was then.....

I hope the thread was of benefit to you.

Fanny Cradock

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Do you think the possibility of life as an atheist would be easier and more carefree?

It might be. Christianity certainly promotes self-restraint and selflessness. These are often at the cost of our desires. Some people think that upon following Jesus life suddenly falls into place. This isn't necessarily the case, especially if your priorities lie elsewhere. However, despite this, there is evidence to suggest that the faithful - those to whom belief in God plays and important role in their life - generally consider themselves happier and live longer than their non-believing counterparts. Still, this says nothing about truth, just like your utterly "unwavable" faith in the non-existence of God or the shakiest of beliefs in God doesn't reveal much.

lmaopml

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

It might be. Christianity certainly promotes self-restraint and selflessness. These are often at the cost of our desires. Some people think that upon following Jesus life suddenly falls into place. This isn't necessarily the case, especially if your priorities lie elsewhere. However, despite this, there is evidence to suggest that the faithful - those to whom belief in God plays and important role in their life - generally consider themselves happier and live longer than their non-believing counterparts. Still, this says nothing about truth, just like your utterly "unwavable" faith in the non-existence of God or the shakiest of beliefs in God doesn't reveal much.

I'd agree with that; it's very much a journey....

I wonder is there a truely satisfied way of expressing it sometimes though, is there the point where someone can be 'most' comfortable, and does that vary? That's what prompted me to reply because I found the question interesting in it's own way....

Are any of us 'comfortable' all the time? I think not; I think that's why we post on forums...lol..

..I could be wrong though..

monosharp

PDN wrote: »

Been there, done that, worn the t-shirt.

Life was neither easy nor carefree.

Is it ever* ? Would you want it to be ?

*Large doses of drugs taken daily is a possible exception

lmaopml

I don't think either ends of the spectrum of belief make life carefree...

I don't think that's the goal of faith either....

..and I don't think it was the goal of atheism either???

monosharp

Removed because of too much coffee and not reading properly.

Fanny Cradock

monosharp wrote: »

I'd take issue with that. Not that I'm suggesting that no christians are selfless or have self-restraint, but it most certainly is not the norm.

I'd say that most decent/honest (I'm trying to use a word that won't invoke the 'true scotsman' fallacy) christians try to adhere to those principles but the majority of people who identify as christians most certainly do not.

In fact I'd say that most christians are among the most selfish and least-restrained people in the world. But that does depend on what you consider selfish or restrained I suppose.

What you may consider an act of selflessness I might consider a selfish act.

For example, a guy I know (yeah yeah, its not made up) went to China during the SARS outbreak a few years ago to evangalise to the locals/capitalise on the situation.

Now you might consider this selflessness in that he went there, putting himself in danger of infection, to try and bring christianity to these people in a time of great need.

I'd consider this same act complete selfishness for the following reasons;
- He believed/believes 100% that god won't let him die/would protect him. (He still does, when asked about the pig flu vaccine he said he didn't need it because god was protecting him.) So if someone honestly believes this hes not really putting himself in danger (in his mind) is he ?
- He wasn't bringing aid in material form, he was trying to convert people when they were in a fearful condition. i.e > He was trying to capitalise on their mis-fortunate state.
- He was spending other peoples money to fund this adventure in SARS-land.

Thanks for that rant. But if you actually read what I said you would see that it was unnecessary. I said Christianity promotes... But you bypassed this and launched into yet another one.

Really, monosharp, I grow tired of your anti-Christian tirades.

monosharp

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Thanks for that rant. But if you actually read what I said you would see that it was unnecessary. I said Christianity promotes... But you bypassed this and launched into yet another one.

Ah. So you did. Sorry.

antiskeptic

Canis Lupus wrote: »

I find it interesting to myself (not poking fun) that I never doubt my doubt. It's utterly unwavable because unless he pops out of thin air in front of me and high fives me (with a drawn out heeeeeeeeeeey) then I don't believe he exists.

I didn't either, until he did. Nor would I have before he did.


(Although I wouldn't be too dogmatic on the manner in which he turns up. Afterall, his doing it your way would only mean you trust one way God has provided whereby you can know things. There could be others and in all cases you'd be depending on God to sustain your knowing. Better to leave the dogma aside and not insist God jump through irrelevant hoops. He is God after all - you need him, not the other way round).

Canis Lupus

PDN wrote: »

Been there, done that, worn the t-shirt.

Life was neither easy nor carefree.

Can you say that life is now considerably easier or carefree due explicitly to finding god? Why was that and what has religion added?

lmaopml wrote: »

I don't think either ends of the spectrum of belief make life carefree...

I don't think that's the goal of faith either....

..and I don't think it was the goal of atheism either???

I doubt it's a goal of atheism or that my non belief makes life easier but rather just something less to have to worry about.

antiskeptic wrote:

I didn't either, until he did. Nor would I have before he did..

So god has given you a high five :P I was just pondering my own question about requiring such physical proof but then also wondered if that would be enough cos Aurthur C Clarkes quote just popped into my head "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".

So here's another question, if someone tomorrow declared they were Jesus reborn, he (she? :P ) could bring people back to life, multiple Brennans bread and change water into pinot grigio (ie everything the bible said Jesus could do and there was no way our science could explain it) would you believe him? If he commanded your complete obedience would you follow him? What if he got all OT and said he was speaking the word of god and requested you go smite the muslims or some other non believers would you?

(I admit my mind is wandering a little here, it's Friday morning after all)

antiskeptic

Canis Lupus wrote: »

So god has given you a high five :P

Effectively, yes.

I was just pondering my own question about requiring such physical proof but then also wondered if that would be enough cos Aurthur C Clarkes quote just popped into my head "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".

Which only goes to show how man's 'wisdom' bends in on itself unto irrelevancy. Arthurs statement in a nutshell:


"God cannot demonstrate he exists to that which he has created" says Gods creation.

So here's another question, if someone tomorrow declared they were Jesus reborn, he (she? :P ) could bring people back to life, multiple Brennans bread and change water into pinot grigio (ie everything the bible said Jesus could do and there was no way our science could explain it) would you believe him?

Nope. Signs and wonders and false Christs doing amazing things are part and parcel of end times. Says the Bible also.

Jaden

Canis Lupus wrote: »

So here's another question, if someone tomorrow declared they were Jesus reborn, he (she? :P ) could bring people back to life, multiple Brennans bread and change water into pinot grigio (ie everything the bible said Jesus could do and there was no way our science could explain it) would you believe him? If he commanded your complete obedience would you follow him? What if he got all OT and said he was speaking the word of god and requested you go smite the muslims or some other non believers would you?

(I admit my mind is wandering a little here, it's Friday morning after all)

Now that's an interesting question. My oversimplified answer would be that I would believe him based on evidence provided, but I'd have to ask "why" to the request. A "because I said so" is not gonna cut the mustard here.

Joey the lips

I struggle a lot with my religion. I find I am very angry with "my god" and other days begging for help.

I think "god" has a ****ty sense of humour and yet sometimes I think my "god" is the greatest.

The hardest thing i find to accept is forgiveness and the parable about the prodical son sucks. why? because I have seen it happen so often.

Greed is a bitch and its in us all.

However all being said... I like life and love my family and at times for these simple things god is the greatest.


Edit: Dad, whats the chances of giving me the six numbers on the lotto. I have been asked god for years and he has not answered.

Canis Lupus

antiskeptic wrote: »

"God cannot demonstrate he exists to that which he has created" says Gods creation.

Why not?

antiskeptic wrote: »

Nope. Signs and wonders and false Christs doing amazing things are part and parcel of end times. Says the Bible also.

How does that work? Jesus arguably proved he was who he said he was through the acts of miracles no? So you're saying that the bible says that if someone pops up with the same powers again and is utterly undistinguishable in every way from the first guy he's actually false?

jaden wrote:

My oversimplified answer would be that I would believe him based on evidence provided, but I'd have to ask "why" to the request. A "because I said so" is not gonna cut the mustard here.

Doesn't god command absolute odedience like the chap (his name totally escapes atm) who went to kill his child on gods command? If he simply stated that god has changed the rules and that everyone who doesn't believe in him needs to be eradicated and that if you don't do it it's off to hell with you?

antiskeptic

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Why not?

Why can't they say it? Well, in order for that to be true, God's creation would have to know everything there is to know (in order that it be found this statement is true). But in order to know everything there is to know you have to be God (which God's creation clearly isn't).

Another way to see it is God's creation pronouncing on what God can and cannot do. But the only way for God's creation to be able to do that is if God tells them so. Which, to my knowledge in this instance, he hasn't.

Quite the contrary in fact.

How does that work? Jesus arguably proved he was who he said he was through the acts of miracles no? So you're saying that the bible says that if someone pops up with the same powers again and is utterly undistinguishable in every way from the first guy he's actually false?

I'm saying that the Bible tells us what Jesus second coming will entail. And it's not as you describe. And your asking that I believe the Bible. And so I would conclude as I do.There are other cases of people displaying supernatural powers in the Bible. And their not Jesus.

Context is everything.

Besides, people who saw the miracles didn't believe so it's not miracles that has you believe Jesus is Jesus.

Canis Lupus

antiskeptic wrote: »

I'm saying that the Bible tells us what Jesus second coming will entail. And it's not as you describe. And your asking that I believe the Bible. And so I would conclude as I do.There are other cases of people displaying supernatural powers in the Bible. And their not Jesus.

Context is everything.

Besides, people who saw the miracles didn't believe so it's not miracles that has you believe Jesus is Jesus.

Right, I'm intrigued. Lets just say that someone came back that was inarguably Jesus (even to an atheist like me) what would your opinion be? Could you not follow him because the bible doesn't say it?

Is god not able to tear up the rule book he (through men) created? It's sounds a little Fight Clubby where Ed Nortons character was unable to stop that which he had put into motion.

philologos

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Right, I'm intrigued. Lets just say that someone came back that was inarguably Jesus (even to an atheist like me) what would your opinion be? Could you not follow him because the bible doesn't say it?

You're setting up the question in a dishonest fashion.

According to the Bible, when Jesus returns, Jesus will have to fulfil the Biblical prophesies concerning Him. So if this person was "inarguably" Jesus in the first place, He would have to be the Jesus described in the Biblical text.

There is no Jesus other than the one described in the Bible.

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Is god not able to tear up the rule book he (through men) created?

See above.

Canis Lupus

Jakkass wrote: »

You're setting up the question in a dishonest fashion.

According to the Bible, when Jesus returns, Jesus will have to fulfil the Biblical prophesies concerning Him. So if this person was "inarguably" Jesus in the first place, He would have to be the Jesus described in the Biblical text.

There is no Jesus other than the one described in the Bible.



See above.

I wasn't being intentionally dishonest and I still think it's a valid (but admitedly silly) question on what you as a christian would do if presented with someone who was a direct link to the word and will of god and who a bit like the latest Star Trek movie pointed out that everything in the future as per the bible has been cancelled and we'll kick things off with the slaughter of the non believers and passed you a whopping big sword.

What would do Jakkass? (I'd like your opinion cos you come across as a calm, pacifist kinda guy).

(sorry if I'm taking this thread into the realms of the cuckoos nest, hopefully it being Friday it'll be allowed)

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote: »

There is no Jesus other than the one described in the Bible.

That is some what circular.

What is Jesus came back and said that the guys after him who wrote the New Testament got it wrong?

Would you say that can't be Jesus because the guys who wrote the Bible didn't get it wrong?

In which cause you are arguing a super powerful supernatural being is wrong and you right.

Isn't that what you guys give out about us doing? :P