my car was impounded. advice please?

duffbeer2009

at about 11am on the 10th of march i was driving into athlone when i came upon a garda checkpoint (traffic corps).
the guard looks in my window and says my insurance disk is out of date (02/10). i explain that i purchased new insurance on friday the 26th of febuary and had changed insurance companies, my new company had asked for proof of NCB etc to be sent to them before they sent out the new disk.
i told the garda that i had sent all relevant documentation to my new company on tuesday the 2nd of march and i was issued with a disk on friday the 5th of march, however they sent out a disk with the wrong reg. my car is 06-d-xxxx and they sent out one for 09-d-xxxx.
i called the insurance company and they asked that i return the incorrect disk and they would issue me with a new one asap. disk was returned on monday the 8th of march.
i showed the guard the page i printed off the web to show that it was all paid for and it also had my policy number on it.
he then said that he was impounding the car because it was coming up on his check as an uninsured vehicle. he told me to remove anything of value as he was calling a removal truck to take it away.
20 mins later im standing on the side of the road with my briefcase and a set of golf clubs as my car is loaded onto the truck!!!!
i ring my new insurance company and tell them what has happened and they confirm that i am fully insured since the 26th of feb. i walk over to the guard and ask him to talk to the girl on the phone but he just tells me to stand off and that i wont be able to get my car back without a valid disk.
i call my dad and he drives me to athlone garda station where i plead my case. the guard at the front desk takes the page i printed off the web and dissappears into the back, he returns 10 mins later and said that this had all been a terrible mistake and i will have my car back shortly.
an hour later he tells me itsout in the car park and that in future i should have a valid insurance disk displayed.

has anyone every come across a situation like this??? surely i should have received an apology at least??? should i take this further???

thanks in advance

seanybiker

You got your car back just leave it at that. Do you really want to draw unwanted attention to yourself just to get an apology.

corktina

I would complain to the Garda Commisuioner and give details of the gard concerned...thats ridiculous.

Victor

They can still prosecute you for not displaying the disk.

I'd leave it be.

MunsterCycling

Abuse of power and total lack of common decency, complaint to the Garda Ombudsman and to Phoenix Park (not that they'll give a fu€k)

MC

robtri

its p*ss poor behaviour by the garda...
and yes you should have an apology for what happened...

but being honest, i would just take it on the chin, whether you had insurance or not, non display of a valid disc is a prosacutable offence....

Cabaal

hellboy99 wrote: »

I'd leave it be.

I would too, you didn't have an insurance disc display you still could be got for that

PCPhoto

MunsterCycling wrote: »

Abuse of power and total lack of common decency, complaint to the Garda Ombudsman and to Phoenix Park (not that they'll give a fu€k)

MC

there are too many people out there with similar stories - except the others are faking it in order to get past the checkpoint, I say the Garda was right - it was an unfortunate state of circumstances.

if you really feel pi$$ed off about it its the insurance company you should be looking for an apology from - they are the ones that fecked you over and caused you stress and hassle - and embarrassment of calling your dad to help....I think what the garda did was right - given the amount of people driving without tax and insurance at the moment.

MunsterCycling

What is really the funny thing here I suppose is the attitude of the OPs insurance company, they should taken more action to cover their client.

alias no.9

PCPhoto wrote: »

if you really feel pi$$ed off about it its the insurance company you should be looking for an apology from - they are the ones that fecked you over and caused you stress and hassle

Couldn't have said it better, they are the ones that let you down. The Garda did what he did based on the available credible evidence. The person on the phone could have been the OP's mum for all the Garda knew and if I were a Garda, I certainly wouldn't be releasing anything on the basis of something printed off from the web.
Time was when insurance companies issued temporary disks to new customers to cover a reasonable period where documents were being sorted.

robinph

The non displaying of an insurance disc cannot be that serious a missdemeanor as there is no requirement for any two wheeled vehicles to display them, nowhere to put it being the problem there though. The gardai are perfectly capable of checking remotely to see the basic details of your insurance without needing to see the bit of paper though, but as you had the supporting documents with the policy number on you at the time they do seem to have gone a bit OTT.

Insurance companies fault, but Gardai didn't need to impound it for the 10 days past the old ones expiry surely when it would have been simple to check if the new policy existed.

Zubeneschamali

The lesson I'll take from this is that if an insurance company asks me to send back a bad disc so that they can issue a good one, I'll say "no, you send me the good one, and then I'll return the dodgy one... I'm not driving without a disc".

the_syco

IMO, if you're going to complain, wait until you get the new disc before you do so.

MagicSean

robinph wrote: »

The non displaying of an insurance disc cannot be that serious a missdemeanor as there is no requirement for any two wheeled vehicles to display them, nowhere to put it being the problem there though. The gardai are perfectly capable of checking remotely to see the basic details of your insurance without needing to see the bit of paper though, but as you had the supporting documents with the policy number on you at the time they do seem to have gone a bit OTT.

Insurance companies fault, but Gardai didn't need to impound it for the 10 days past the old ones expiry surely when it would have been simple to check if the new policy existed.

The Garda did check remotely and the car came back uninsured on the system because the insurance company hadnt updated the details. The Gardaí cant take chances on situations like this. If the op hadnt been insured and drove down the road and ran over a kid there'd be a lot of trouble heading his way.

robinph

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The lesson I'll take from this is that if an insurance company asks me to send back a bad disc so that they can issue a good one, I'll say "no, you send me the good one, and then I'll return the dodgy one... I'm not driving without a disc".

Except the disc that was sent back would have been considered as much proof of the insurance as the printout from the web by the sounds of it, seeing as it was for a different vehicle.

gaz wac

got stopped on sunday..no tax or insurance, garda was very nice about the whole thing ( just bought it saturday )....you were very unlucky...but yea, your beef is with the incurance company!!

robinph

k_mac wrote: »

The Garda did check remotely and the car came back uninsured on the system because the insurance company hadnt updated the details. The Gardaí cant take chances on situations like this. If the op hadnt been insured and drove down the road and ran over a kid there'd be a lot of trouble heading his way.

I think those checks will actually only give the details that were valid when you renewed your tax disc now. Was a while ago since I was followed down the road by them and then stopped after they had checked my insurance details now. I don't think they get updated by the insurance companies, just by you when renewing your tax.

Zubeneschamali

robinph wrote: »

Except the disc that was sent back would have been considered as much proof of the insurance as the printout from the web by the sounds of it, seeing as it was for a different vehicle.

A guard at a checkpoint is far more likely to stop a car with no disc than a car with a disc with a typo on it.

stealthyspeeder

The Insuranse company should be doing everything they can to avoid their customers getting into that situation. They must be aware that this can happen if procedure is followed by the guards.

Having said that, the system and procedure that the guards use is flawed. A fully paid up, taxed insured car, should not be taken off its righful owner, leaving them stranded due to some beurocratic techicality. ANPR cameras can check if a car is taxed and insured in seconds with an online database. The fact that that incident happened to the OP in this day and age is disgraceful in my opinion.

Mr. Presentable

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

The Insuranse company should be doing everything they can to avoid their customers getting into that situation. They must be aware that this can happen if procedure is followed by the guards.

Having said that, the system and procedure that the guards use is flawed. A fully paid up, taxed insured car, should not be taken off its righful owner, leaving them stranded due to some beurocratic techicality. ANPR cameras can check if a car is taxed and insured in seconds with an online database. The fact that that incident happened to the OP in this day and age is disgraceful in my opinion.

Yeah, but his problem is with his insurers, not the Gardai. They checked and it came up as uninsured, thus the insurer has not provided the status of the OP to the Gardai. ANPR cameras are no use if the information is wrong/missing in the first place.

JimmyCrackCorn

Victor wrote: »

They can still prosecute you for not displaying the disk.

Yes you can and giving the guard a bad day is a good way to make sure he does do you for it.

cpoh1

I think the garda is at fault here.

He wasnt displaying a disk but he had proof of insurance via his printed insurance details. If the garda was unsure of this information a quick check would have sufficed. The way I see it he showed no compassion or regard for the op and could have dealt with the situation much better.

Non-display of insurance disc is a €120 on the spot fine, he was perfectly entitled to issue that penalty, impounding the car with reasonable proof the car was insured is bad policing, garda resources and a waste of the ops time.

Mr. Presentable

cpoh1 wrote: »

I think the garda is at fault here.

He wasnt displaying a disk but he had proof of insurance via his printed insurance details. If the garda was unsure of this information a quick check would have sufficed. The way I see it he showed no compassion or regard for the op and could have dealt with the situation much better.

Non-display of insurance disc is a €120 on the spot fine, he was perfectly entitled to issue that penalty, impounding the car with reasonable proof the car was insured is bad policing, garda resources and a waste of the ops time.

But the Garda did check, and the car came up as uninsured.

Alun

nipplenuts wrote: »

But the Garda did check, and the car came up as uninsured.

I've seen on the UK traffic cop shows that where there is a discrepancy between their database and what the guy is claiming to be the truth (and it sounds in any way plausible) that the cops either call the insurance company themselves to double check or get someone at their control centre to call and report back to them. No reason why they shouldn't do the same here, especially if there is evidence of their database being out of date and/or inaccurate.

Jip

cpoh1 wrote: »

I think the garda is at fault here.

He wasnt displaying a disk but he had proof of insurance via his printed insurance details.

Anyone can modify a home printed document so I would never trust them. If the OP got the original insurance disk I would assume he also got the insurance cert, why didn't you have this alongside the printed form, the cert would have been better proof than the print out, albeit with a incorrect reg.

But I don't understand why the garda could not have spoken to the insurance company to save all involved alot of time and hassle, that was just poor form.

MagicSean

How could he talk to the insurance company on the side of the road?

Jip

We have this little things called mobile phones now.

MagicSean

Gardaí arent provided with them.

Jip

Doesn't matter, the OP more than likely had one. Any more pedantic obstacles you can think of ?

stealthyspeeder

Alun wrote: »

I've seen on the UK traffic cop shows that where there is a discrepancy between their database and what the guy is claiming to be the truth (and it sounds in any way plausible) that the cops either call the insurance company themselves to double check or get someone at their control centre to call and report back to them. No reason why they shouldn't do the same here, especially if there is evidence of their database being out of date and/or inaccurate.

Common scam in the UK is get insurance, pay monthly, get the certificate then cancel the payments. The insurance companies have a special number set aside for police queries. When the police ring up

k_mac wrote: »

How could he talk to the insurance company on the side of the road?

using their hi tech mobile phones :rolleyes:, they can ascertain whether the insurance is valid.

Much better system than a bit of paper in the window IMO.

Henry Ford III

The cop was right to stop you and impound your car I think.

Your docs were simply not in order.

thebiglad

k_mac wrote: »

How could he talk to the insurance company on the side of the road?

OP did state he called the Insurer on his own mobile and offered the Garda to speak with them.

Of course, he could have called anybody so Garda would not know who they are speaking to but, as a mobile phone was being offered and it would not be so difficult to get the Insurers' number surely a call could have been made. It would have taken 5 minutes - how does that compare with the time to arrange recovery and all of the paperwork garda had to complete?

As for the Insurers side - UK database which feeds ANPR is only updated weekly by insurers - they fail to do so and they get fined. However potentially cars are not on database for 1 week and hence they have contacts in the Insurer.

It is accepted that person can get a quote online or telephone with 'immediate' cover - there is no way to get the disc and cert immediately so there has to be some common sense applied.

Insurers cannot issue the Cert/Disc until they have received proof of NCD or licence etc - if they did so and the documents were not forthcoming they would spend a lot of time (and money) in recovering them, not to mention there would be numerous cars with seemingly valid discs in their windows where cover is not in force - hence it is better to provide temporary cover pending acceptance of documents.

The AGS need to adapt their processes to the real world of applying for or changing insurance provider, else the Government needs to legislate a change.

Viper_JB

Henry Ford III wrote: »

The cop was right to stop you and impound your car I think.

Your docs were simply not in order.

I'd highly doubt you'd feel the same way if you were left standing at the side of the road after doing everything in your control to make sure you were legally on the road. Simple fact is this should never happen - the insurance company made a mistake - the guard really f**ked up.

daveyboy_1ie

The bottom line is through no fault of his own the OP was treated like a criminal with no repsect at all and was left on the side of the road totally inconvenienced by either a lack of courtesy from the gaurd in question who could not be bothered to help a citizen of the state or the ineptitude of the insurance company clerk/Database administrator for the gaurds to update records.Its no wonder why there is an increasing 'us and them' attitude between joe public and those in power when law abiding people are seen to be punished.

To be honest I would take it further myself purely on principal alone. I am in the middle of changing insurance companies myself and the when applying online for the quote which was considerably cheaper than my current provider the first thing that was done was to take my money and THEN i have to prove I have 5+ years driving after recieiving by post the forms to fill out. Luckily enough I have weeks until my current policy is expired but the system is flawed that within 24 hours of applying money is withdrawing and I probably won't receive my disc for a few weeks. And I can only hope and pray they do their job and inform the relevant authorities. Thankfully I had enough foresight to start the process early but what if I had of left it to the last week of my current policy? I could be stopped in the meantime for having an out of date disc even though i am fully insured, and the times I have gone through stops the attitude of at least half the gaurds in question left a lot to be desired.

Henry Ford III

Viper_JB wrote: »

I'd highly doubt you'd feel the same way if you were left standing at the side of the road after doing everything in your control to make sure you were legally on the road. Simple fact is this should never happen - the insurance company made a mistake - the guard really f**ked up.

That's the thing though.

I'd make sure my docs were in order, or that I had adequate documentary evidence in the car to explain otherwise.

Failing all that I'd get the bus.

daveyboy_1ie

Henry Ford III wrote: »

That's the thing though.

I'd make sure my docs were in order, or that I had adequate documentary evidence in the car to explain otherwise.

Why should you have to get a bus when you have done your bit, paid your motor tax and car insurance and are entirely entitled to drive. the system is flawed.

Henry Ford III

daveyboy_1ie wrote: »

Why should you have to get a bus when you have done your bit, paid your motor tax and car insurance and are entirely entitled to drive. the system is flawed.

If your docs aren't in order you shouldn't drive, simples

Doesn't really matter who's fault it is.

Zubeneschamali

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

A guard at a checkpoint is far more likely to stop a car with no disc than a car with a disc with a typo on it.

What if your stopped, you will be done for displaying a false disc, and what happens if your involved in an accident and your disc displays the wrong details, your not insured.

Anan1

Henry Ford III wrote: »

If your docs aren't in order you shouldn't drive, simples

Doesn't really matter who's fault it is.

That's how I see it too. The OP paid for insurance, and the insurance company didn't provide the correct cert & disc, thereby creating a situation where the OP couldn't legally drive their car.

daveyboy_1ie

Henry Ford III wrote: »

If your docs aren't in order you shouldn't drive, simples

Doesn't really matter who's fault it is.

So what your saying is its quite alright to pay for a years insurance premium, but through no fault of your own will happily wait for theoretically the entire year until other people do their jobs and update the records and send the neccesary documents to you?

Just as long as we are clear thats what your saying, because its that sort of attitude that allows people to be walked all over. It sounds as if am being smart but thats the point I am trying to make, the OP did nothing wrong yet was punised. He had evidence saying the disc was on way.

I remember the very first insurance company I dealt told me it was ok to drive to their premises and collect the disc as the policy started at the time I rang up and paid of the policy. I was just as anxious as you but they told me its legally ok. Now either they were lying or I drove illegally. Its a grey area I have since been told and its the same as the OP, except the difference is he had proof he was waiting for the disc. Like any legal issue the onus is not on the defence to prove he is telling the truth, the onus is on the police to prove he is lying (innocent until proven guilty). Its agrey area admittidly but I totally side with the Op in this case, he was not shown common decency.

I wonder what your attitude if his partner/ wife was injured or pregnant and needed hospital treatment? In theory he can take a cab but why should he when he is legally entitled to drive?

stealthyspeeder

Henry Ford III wrote: »

If your docs aren't in order you shouldn't drive, simples

Doesn't really matter who's fault it is.

The documents are just a formal proof that you have done what is required by law (taxed and insured your car), to betreated like a criminal when you have fuffulled the underlying requirements is a clear failing of beurocracy.

The law which states you must display your insurance and tax was made and passed as it was the best way to enforce the underlying requirments for practical purposes at that time. Its not now, as we could move to a better more to a more modern system with an instant online database where the ownus is on the insurance company to be up to date.

Absurdum

There is always going to be a lag of a few days when changing car or company, insurance companies and postal systems aren't always the most efficient at getting documents out asap, if the Garda in question failed to comprehend these simple, innocent facts then perhaps he should consider a different career path.

Henry Ford III

daveyboy_1ie wrote: »

So what your saying is its quite alright to pay for a years insurance premium, but through no fault of your own will happily wait for theoretically the entire year until other people do their jobs and update the records and send the neccesary documents to you?

Just as long as we are clear thats what your saying, because its that sort of attitude that allows people to be walked all over. It sounds as if am being smart but thats the point I am trying to make, the OP did nothing wrong yet was punised. He had evidence saying the disc was on way.

I remember the very first insurance company I dealt told me it was ok to drive to their premises and collect the disc as the policy started at the time I rang up and paid of the policy. I was just as anxious as you but they told me its legally ok. Now either they were lying or I drove illegally. Its a grey area I have since been told and its the same as the OP, except the difference is he had proof he was waiting for the disc. Like any legal issue the onus is not on the defence to prove he is telling the truth, the onus is on the police to prove he is lying (innocent until proven guilty). Its agrey area admittidly but I totally side with the Op in this case, he was not shown common decency.

I wonder what your attitude if his partner/ wife was injured or pregnant and needed hospital treatment? In theory he can take a cab but why should he when he is legally entitled to drive?

He didn't have his docs in order! That's his responsibility & nobody elses. Mightn't be his fault but that's a completely different issue.

Anan1

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

The documents are just a formal proof that you have done what is required by law (taxed and insured your car), to betreated like a criminal when you have fuffulled the underlying requirements is a clear failing of beurocracy.

The law which states you must display your insurance and tax was made and passed as it was the best way to enforce the underlying requirments for practical purposes at that time. Its not now, as we could move to a better more to a more modern system with an instant online database where the ownus is on the insurance company to be up to date.

The Garda did check the database, and the car came back as uninsured. At that point, not impounding the car would have been a dereliction of duty. Like I said before, I think the OP was failed by their insurance company.

daveharnett

Lads, the OP was not able to provide any evidence that he was insured!

He had no disk, just a piece of A4 which he could have mocked up in word, with a policy number which didn't exist in the Garda database.

If you expect the Gardai to stop uninsured drivers, then in these circumstances they have to stop the OP too.

MagicSean

The simple fact is the insurance company messed up and the Garda didn't believe him. I'm sure its not the first time he heard the excuse. Despite what you might think there is no hotline to check insurance policies. And Gardaí do not have mobiles for work and have been advised by the G.R.A. not to bring their personal ones to work. And there is no way a Garda is going to except a computer print out of a copy of a receipt. The OP should have kept something from the insurance company as proof i.e. one of the letters. The way the Garda is going to look at it is that he's had at least ten days to sort it out and that should be plenty of time. The OP also seems to have a gap in insurance at the start of the month. Maybe I read that wrong but he's previous insurance was up in Feb and his new insurance was issued on 5th March. There is no reason to have waited for so long to get new insurance.

cpoh1

People need to realise there are two things here

1. Non-display of insurance disc while still being insured. €120 fine and slap on the wrist, your car is not taken from you.

2. Uninsured car and driver. Car impounded and future court case and prosecution for no insurance.

The op provided more than reasonable doubt in the form of insurance details (policy number via printoff from insurer) to warrant the garda impounding the car for having no insurance. This is a completely different offence to not having a valid insurance disc. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty, or reasonable doubt. The garda needed to investigate the matter further (by contacting the insurance company in question) to provide quantifiable proof the car and driver was uninsured and then he could have impounded the car.

People are missing the point completely here, the garda jumped the gun and made a big mistake in impounding incorrectly a validly insured car. Disc or no insurance disc displayed.

getz

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

The documents are just a formal proof that you have done what is required by law (taxed and insured your car), to betreated like a criminal when you have fuffulled the underlying requirements is a clear failing of beurocracy.

The law which states you must display your insurance and tax was made and passed as it was the best way to enforce the underlying requirments for practical purposes at that time. Its not now, as we could move to a better more to a more modern system with an instant online database where the ownus is on the insurance company to be up to date.

even that could be a problem ,in the UK where they have that system,the insurers put the information voluntary on a data base,[its not law] so that any policeman can check if your car has insurance,recently i have been pulled up three times because my insurers[one of the biggest in the world] computers had gone down and my proof of insurance was not on it ,even though i was carring my insurance papers with me,the police wouldent except them,eventually i had to phone up the police HQ at preston to get my imformation put into their intelligence system[like a criminal] to stop them taking my car away,

cpoh1

daveharnett wrote: »

Lads, the OP was not able to provide any evidence that he was insured!

He had no disk, just a piece of A4 which he could have mocked up in word, with a policy number which didn't exist in the Garda database.

If you expect the Gardai to stop uninsured drivers, then in these circumstances they have to stop the OP too.

Do you not think in this instance he could have asked the driver to provide insurance details to his local station within 14 days. It appears the garda in question bypassed all procedures to deal with this situation (and common sense) and went for thre jugular. I would be contacting the garda ombudsman.

MagicSean

If the Garda has reason to doubt he was insured he is right to take the car while he investigates. Otherwise he is letting someone drive away who may not have insurance. If the vehicle turns out to be insured it is released without charge.