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Dunguib the truth?

  • 18-03-2010 1:15am
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 53 ✭✭


    Heard tonight that dunguib had a gallop to stretch the legs tuesday morning and jocked off boc, ran loose for 40 mins with the jeeps after him.
    I dont know what the truth of the situation is, but the source is pretty reliable.only thing is i cant see how he could be running free for so long and how it wouldnt be in the public domain by now.


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,288 ✭✭✭✭mdwexford


    lol did you just read this on the Betfair forum also?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 53 ✭✭Nero Ceasar


    mdwexford wrote: »
    lol did you just read this on the Betfair forum also?

    No got a phone call the context of which was back him now for next years champion hurdle because(see above).
    Personally couldnt have him in a champion hurdle.
    Person who started betfair thread is person who told me.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,056 ✭✭✭applehunter


    :D

    Put on some pants


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,552 ✭✭✭chinguetti


    That rumour would have hit the racecourse and he would have drifted like a ship out of control which didn't happened. Load of nonsense.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,340 ✭✭✭sting60


    firstly Dunguib was not good enough as he was totally out paced in closing stages.the rumors are just a load of...... .Secondly he will not win next years Champion hurdle i would be surprised if next year he is not running over further or chasing.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,873 ✭✭✭RichieLawlor


    sting60 wrote: »
    firstly Dunguib was not good enough as he was totally out paced in closing stages.the rumors are just a load of...... .Secondly he will not win next years Champion hurdle i would be surprised if next year he is not running over further or chasing.

    Good Luck getting a jockey to jump a fence on this lad, he cant jump the hurdles. Ascot Gold Cup is the place for him


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,003 ✭✭✭Shane732


    This is really starting to piss me off at this stage. All this Dunguib isn't good enough etc.. he got beaten 3 lengths in the Supreme Novices closing all the way to the line.

    He ran 4/5 wide the whole way round and lost buckets of ground. They thought they were good enough to win it hard on the bridle after keeping him out of trouble the whole way round, which wasn't the case. If they'd be more aggressive with him the result may have been different.

    He was be no means disgraced though - he just wasn't placed properly when the race got going. Menorah and GMOH both got an easy lead because of the masses of ground Dunguib lost coming down the hill. Dunguib jumped reasonably well the whole way round.

    In relation to the Ascot Gold Cup comment: Dunguib won the champion bumper in a time of 3:56 (2m 1/2f) and the normal time for the Ascot Gold Cup is about 4:20 (2m 4f) over the last decade. Granted the ground conditions are different but 25 seconds for 4f? :eek: :eek:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,003 ✭✭✭Shane732


    In relation to the Champion Hurdle comment - the Supreme was 3 seconds slower than the Champion this year. Dunguib was 3 lengths of the winning Supreme time.

    It's a very bold statement to make stating that he won't win it. I certainly wouldn't have any confidence in predicting the result of next champion hurdle one way or another at this stage.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 641 ✭✭✭Gautama


    Heard tonight that dunguib had a gallop to stretch the legs tuesday morning and jocked off boc, ran loose for 40 mins with the jeeps after him.
    I dont know what the truth of the situation is, but the source is pretty reliable.only thing is i cant see how he could be running free for so long and how it wouldnt be in the public domain by now.

    Nice one, you must have made a packet laying him. Bit like the Cousin Vinny last year. When the whispers were out about his bad trip over, some made a fortune laying at a "tasty" price.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,436 ✭✭✭Morgans


    Shane732 wrote: »
    In relation to the Champion Hurdle comment - the Supreme was 3 seconds slower than the Champion this year. Dunguib was 3 lengths of the winning Supreme time.

    It's a very bold statement to make stating that he won't win it. I certainly wouldn't have any confidence in predicting the result of next champion hurdle one way or another at this stage.

    He wont win it. He will win plenty of races. If he were mine, I would think about the series of 2m4f races in Ireland at the start of the year - the Limestone Lad/Solerina route (starting with the Hattons Grace) and I think the stayers and not the Champion is the best target for next year. There are two hurdles in the last 6f in that race. Whether he is a) good enough or b) stays well enough is something that we will only find out.

    One thing is certain, that if he jumps like he has done in any of his hurdles so far he will never, never win a champion hurdle.

    If a trip to Yogi Breisner doesn't help him, then give some other trainer a chance. Always remember Fenton's blog saying that "you wouldn't have thought he was a superstar if you saw his first attempt at hurdles".


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,340 ✭✭✭sting60


    Good Luck getting a jockey to jump a fence on this lad, he cant jump the hurdles. Ascot Gold Cup is the place for him
    sad people, this horse is a stayer or chaser my god thick. i won money at cheltenham.50e/w bumper winner,200 win gold cup ,500e/w loss Bahrain Storm,500e/w medermit,1,000 win @ 6/12nd .NO way group horse on flat, maybe hcp only.remember carvilles hill won welsh grand national ,he never jumped a hurdle


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 218 ✭✭westlife2010


    sting60 wrote: »
    sad people, this horse is a stayer or chaser my god thick. i won money at cheltenham.50e/w bumper winner,200 win gold cup ,500e/w loss Bahrain Storm,500e/w medermit,1,000 win @ 6/12nd .NO way group horse on flat, maybe hcp only.remember carvilles hill won welsh grand national ,he never jumped a hurdle
    If rite of passage can win a competitive flat race like the november handicap by 9L off 88 (rating now around 100) what rating would dunguib receive from the handicapper?. finishes nearly 11L in front of ROP easy as he likes...... around 110 maybe? Yeats was rated at 122 at his very best. Kasbah Bliss is a proven group 1 flat horse.... Dunguib could be anything....but he def would not just be a handicapper


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 870 ✭✭✭knighted_1


    .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,262 ✭✭✭Juwwi


    ^^^ lol thank god knighted for the edit button wat

    l suppose u were there when they raced over the mile :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,335 ✭✭✭✭UrbanSea


    sting60 wrote: »
    sad people, this horse is a stayer or chaser my god thick. i won money at cheltenham.50e/w bumper winner,200 win gold cup ,500e/w loss Bahrain Storm,500e/w medermit,1,000 win @ 6/12nd .NO way group horse on flat, maybe hcp only.remember carvilles hill won welsh grand national ,he never jumped a hurdle
    I don't quite get what your saying.
    Your winnings in cheltenham are irrelevant to what your saying


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Whyno


    sting60 wrote: »
    sad people, this horse is a stayer or chaser my god thick. i won money at cheltenham.50e/w bumper winner,200 win gold cup ,500e/w loss Bahrain Storm,500e/w medermit,1,000 win @ 6/12nd .NO way group horse on flat, maybe hcp only.remember carvilles hill won welsh grand national ,he never jumped a hurdle

    Blah Blah Blah...is all i ever seem to get out of your posts.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 182 ✭✭deewhy


    Dont forget that this was a novice race - IMO the first 3 this year have huge potential to win at the top level. All you have to do is look back on the Supreme from 2009 - Go Native, Medermit, Somersby, Copper Blue to know that a top 3/4 finish means you should have a horse with real potential in N.H. The year before top 4 - Captain Cee Bee, Binocular, Snap Tie and Kalahari King.

    Novice's need time to learn their trade and although I backed him, I was not surprised to see him beaten.

    To me and no disrespect to the jockey but if you have a horse with Dunquibs potential, you need to plan with the best services available i.e. AP, Ruby etc. They will be best placed to advise the route the horse should go.

    It will be interesting to see if he runs in Aintree or Punchestown or they put him away to grass. If he does run and gets beaten again, then pressure will grow on jockey choice.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,838 ✭✭✭Nulty


    Absolutely nailed on there deewhy. I think people expected Dunguib to be a Binocular. The fact is he doesn't hurdle like Binocular and will never be as good all-round as him. He's still very good but didn't meet the expectations everyone had set for him.

    BTW did you get your name from the suburb in Sydney?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,436 ✭✭✭Morgans


    deewhy wrote: »
    Dont forget that this was a novice race - IMO the first 3 this year have huge potential to win at the top level. All you have to do is look back on the Supreme from 2009 - Go Native, Medermit, Somersby, Copper Blue to know that a top 3/4 finish means you should have a horse with real potential in N.H. The year before top 4 - Captain Cee Bee, Binocular, Snap Tie and Kalahari King.

    Novice's need time to learn their trade and although I backed him, I was not surprised to see him beaten.

    To me and no disrespect to the jockey but if you have a horse with Dunquibs potential, you need to plan with the best services available i.e. AP, Ruby etc. They will be best placed to advise the route the horse should go.

    It will be interesting to see if he runs in Aintree or Punchestown or they put him away to grass. If he does run and gets beaten again, then pressure will grow on jockey choice.

    Lot of sense, but Dunguib is older than most novices and wouldnt have quite the scope of the younger animals. If he gets beaten at Aintree or Punchestown and is no fault of the jockey, I would hope they dont just put on a top rider out of desperation. If he does run and get beaten again, it may be that the horse isnt quite able to live up to the very considerable hype.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 182 ✭✭deewhy


    BTW did you get your name from the suburb in Sydney?[/QUOTE]

    I did indeed - you been there?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 641 ✭✭✭Gautama


    Maybe Dunguib was on steroids during the bumper in 2009, and that's why he took off up the hill?
    Maybe he wasn't on steroids this year, and that pace wasn't present.

    Nobody wants to talk about "the elephant in the room". Punchestown in April 2009. That D does not stand for Dunguib!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,340 ✭✭✭sting60


    Philp Fenton has a very good horse ,he will not win 2011 champion hurdle.Anybody who thinks he will win ,I will accommodate you big time. i hope they go to Aintree and win easily and then go over two and a half miles ,I could be wrong.More horses over last 10 years are been bought off the the flat to win Champion Hurdle, more speed .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,340 ✭✭✭sting60


    Gautama wrote: »
    Maybe Dunguib was on steroids during the bumper in 2009, and that's why he took off up the hill?
    Maybe he wasn't on steroids this year, and that pace wasn't present.

    Nobody wants to talk about "the elephant in the room". Punchestown in April 2009. That D does not stand for Dunguib!
    every horse is on gear ,big time starting with V O B.If your not on you don't win .Ask M P Christ your naive.I can tell you the gear but i cant tell you the masking gear.Also withdraw required amound of blood one month before your target then put it back with steroids one week before your race.But the most potential horse will always beat the average horse providing it works.oops


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,340 ✭✭✭sting60


    Whyno wrote: »
    Blah Blah Blah...is all i ever seem to get out of your posts.
    Only fact,did you win at cheltnham i did because i dont listen to the likes of you .you were listening to all the hype because you are are a serial loser.I never lose.Did you read Dave Nevesons latest book and if you know me you would listen,big time.did you back the winner of the bumper at 33-1 as i did because the facts were there three years in advance ,you did not know that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,838 ✭✭✭Nulty


    deewhy wrote: »
    I did indeed - you been there?

    Yeah the fella who owns my local in Redfern lives out there. Went out for a barbeque one night and then across to the pub (can't remember what it's called)

    So, are you ozzie or what?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,669 ✭✭✭Colonel Sanders


    sting60 wrote: »
    Only fact,did you win at cheltnham i did because i dont listen to the likes of you .you were listening to all the hype because you are are a serial loser.I never lose.Did you read Dave Nevesons latest book and if you know me you would listen,big time.did you back the winner of the bumper at 33-1 as i did because the facts were there three years in advance ,you did not know that.

    Yes, I did win money at Cheltenham. What has that got to do with anything?

    All we get from you around here is unintelligible posts and claims of having the ear of everyone from Alan King to Philip Fenton


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,288 ✭✭✭✭mdwexford


    sting60 wrote: »
    Only fact,did you win at cheltnham i did because i dont listen to the likes of you .you were listening to all the hype because you are are a serial loser.I never lose.Did you read Dave Nevesons latest book and if you know me you would listen,big time.did you back the winner of the bumper at 33-1 as i did because the facts were there three years in advance ,you did not know that.

    lol this is comedy gold.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,669 ✭✭✭Colonel Sanders


    mdwexford wrote: »
    lol this is comedy gold.

    I actually just read the post, usually ignore his posts

    3 years in advance of the bumper Cue Card was a yearling. Must say you'd have got some ante post price at that stage :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,838 ✭✭✭Nulty


    I'll tell you what, Dunguib would have won that Supreme if he was closer. Definitely. He was 10 horse-widths wide coming into the straight. 10 His jumping wasn't great again, even the last but he's still the best horse in that race.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,288 ✭✭✭✭mdwexford


    Just watched it again for the first time since i saw it live. Wasnt half as bad a ride as i first thought to be honest. Could have made a move before the second last but he still came there with every chance at the bottom of the hill, he just didnt quicken as well as people thought he might.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭gscully


    mdwexford wrote: »
    Just watched it again for the first time since i saw it live. Wasnt half as bad a ride as i first thought to be honest. Could have made a move before the second last but he still came there with every chance at the bottom of the hill, he just didnt quicken as well as people thought he might.

    I thought he needed to be closer jumping the hurdle at the bottom of the hill and going to the turn. You can get away with being more than two lengths down rounding the bend in a stayers race, but not in a race where speed is more of a requirement than stamina. I really believe he would've won if he was on the shoulders of the leaders rounding that turn. He made up a few lengths before the last, but was then too spent for the hill, yet he kept in touch. I wouldn't write him off just yet...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Whyno


    sting60 wrote: »
    Only fact,did you win at cheltnham i did because i dont listen to the likes of you .you were listening to all the hype because you are are a serial loser.I never lose.Did you read Dave Nevesons latest book and if you know me you would listen,big time.did you back the winner of the bumper at 33-1 as i did because the facts were there three years in advance ,you did not know that.

    You truly are just LOL...with your 500 wins and 500 e.ws. You never lose.Hmmmm
    What about your bets on Medermit.Do you not count them as losers. I bet you get up in the morning and tell yourself this time next year Rodney i`'ll be a millionaire.
    As the lads have pointed out you knew about cue card 3 years ago. He wouldnt have even been named then you clown. Wise up like a good little girl.
    By the way i had very few bets in chel but however my biggest was on the dunguib race which i broke even on. Had no bets St. Patricks day or on the thursday and only backed Pigeon Island on the friday. So i guess that makes me a winner over the week.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,526 ✭✭✭finbarrk


    Shane732 wrote: »
    This is really starting to piss me off at this stage. All this Dunguib isn't good enough etc.. he got beaten 3 lengths in the Supreme Novices closing all the way to the line.

    He ran 4/5 wide the whole way round and lost buckets of ground. They thought they were good enough to win it hard on the bridle after keeping him out of trouble the whole way round, which wasn't the case. If they'd be more aggressive with him the result may have been different.

    He was be no means disgraced though - he just wasn't placed properly when the race got going. Menorah and GMOH both got an easy lead because of the masses of ground Dunguib lost coming down the hill. Dunguib jumped reasonably well the whole way round.

    In relation to the Ascot Gold Cup comment: Dunguib won the champion bumper in a time of 3:56 (2m 1/2f) and the normal time for the Ascot Gold Cup is about 4:20 (2m 4f) over the last decade. Granted the ground conditions are different but 25 seconds for 4f? :eek: :eek:

    Regarding the Gold Cup there would be over 2 stone of a weight difference. I'm not saying he would win it either though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,096 ✭✭✭✭the groutch


    Shane732 wrote: »
    In relation to the Ascot Gold Cup comment: Dunguib won the champion bumper in a time of 3:56 (2m 1/2f) and the normal time for the Ascot Gold Cup is about 4:20 (2m 4f) over the last decade. Granted the ground conditions are different but 25 seconds for 4f? :eek: :eek:

    a lit over-simplified imo, cheltenham is a totally different course and different going at different times of year, and 2 stone more for the horse to carry if the champion bumper was run at Ascot on Good To Firm with 9st jockeys on board, I'd say the winning time would be in the 3:30-3:40 bracket


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,838 ✭✭✭Nulty


    a lit over-simplified imo, cheltenham is a totally different course and different going at different times of year, if the champion buper was run at Ascot on Good To Firm, I'd say the winning time would be closer to 3:40

    Ascots a much flatter track also isn't it?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,096 ✭✭✭✭the groutch


    Nulty wrote: »
    Ascots a much flatter track also isn't it?

    yeah, to put it in context, the Queen's Vase, a group 3 for 3yo is won in sub 3:30 times, I reckon Dunguib would be at least group 3 standard on lines of from with other former flat horses


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,003 ✭✭✭Shane732


    mdwexford wrote: »
    Just watched it again for the first time since i saw it live. Wasnt half as bad a ride as i first thought to be honest. Could have made a move before the second last but he still came there with every chance at the bottom of the hill, he just didnt quicken as well as people thought he might.


    Did you see the amount of ground he lost by having to go wide of everything coming down the hill?

    I've watched it a few times and think that if the tactics had been better then they were. I'm told by a jockey that rode in the race that a few of the lads were telling Brian to move him into contention earlier and that he was being wasted back there with them. He didn't listen to them though.

    If he'd listened to the advice it could have been a very different Cheltenham for many Irish punters!

    All going well Dunguib will be making up for Cheltenham sometime around 4:20 on the 20th April!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,003 ✭✭✭Shane732


    sting60 wrote: »
    Only fact,did you win at cheltnham i did because i dont listen to the likes of you .you were listening to all the hype because you are are a serial loser.I never lose.Did you read Dave Nevesons latest book and if you know me you would listen,big time.did you back the winner of the bumper at 33-1 as i did because the facts were there three years in advance ,you did not know that.

    Just leave


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,003 ✭✭✭Shane732


    a lit over-simplified imo, cheltenham is a totally different course and different going at different times of year, and 2 stone more for the horse to carry if the champion bumper was run at Ascot on Good To Firm with 9st jockeys on board, I'd say the winning time would be in the 3:30-3:40 bracket

    Yes it was over-simplified but I was trying to make a general point that I don't think he'd be quick enough to win it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,436 ✭✭✭Morgans


    Shane732 wrote: »
    Did you see the amount of ground he lost by having to go wide of everything coming down the hill?

    I've watched it a few times and think that if the tactics had been better then they were. I'm told by a jockey that rode in the race that a few of the lads were telling Brian to move him into contention earlier and that he was being wasted back there with them. He didn't listen to them though.

    If he'd listen to the advice it could have be a very different Cheltenham for many Irish punters!

    All going well Dunguib will be making up for Cheltenham sometime around 4:20 on the 20th April!

    The racing wide has nothing to do with why he didnt win. Its the symptom of the horses problem. Everyone seems to focus on the last bend and how wide he was into it. The jockeys in the race were essentially right. The problem for Dunguib (and O'Connell) started with a mistake at the 5th flight - before that he had McCoy (the main danger) in his sights 2-3l ahead, that mistake led it to being 4-5l.

    A sensible plan would have been to track McCoy but because of that mistake he was a few lenghts further back than he should have been at a time that the pace was picking up. I think the jockey (and horse) did well to get back into any sort of contention turning in.

    Unfortunately for O'Connell, on the better ground against better opposition, they simply didnt fall back into his lap when Dunguib quickened, they kept accelerating. You can also see the horse hesitate coming to the last. He simply does not jump well enough at this level on that ground in that distance. Had he been taken up the inside, his jumping would have forced him to be shuffled back continuously, and even McCoy got into trouble on the inside - Dunguib would more than likely have needed to come around the leaders in the home straight. Staying wide was not the reason for the defeat. The jumping was.

    Had everything gone his way - had his jumping been better, had he not been quite so keen early on - he may have won but it was never going to be done "pulling a horsebox" as some thought before. Even at the most generous interpretation, the most he could have won by is 2l - and that is at its most generous. He simply isnt quite the horse that his supporters believed him to be.

    As for making up for Cheltenham, he may well do, but I wouldnt back him to beat Get Me Out of Here or Menorah if they lined up against him. (menorah's connections did send Copper Bleu to Punchestown last year)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70 ✭✭larsson7


    sting60 wrote: »
    sad people, this horse is a stayer or chaser my god thick. i won money at cheltenham.50e/w bumper winner,200 win gold cup ,500e/w loss Bahrain Storm,500e/w medermit,1,000 win @ 6/12nd .NO way group horse on flat, maybe hcp only.remember carvilles hill won welsh grand national ,he never jumped a hurdle

    Love gloaters, 500ew on Bahrain Storm :rolleyes:
    Why does a chaser have to jump hurdles? Im sure it only helped Carvilles Hill win Welsh National not having done so.
    Dermot Weld said Dunquib would win a Melbourne Cup so maybe you're right a Group 1 handicapper.
    I'd be all over this for either St Leger


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,436 ✭✭✭Morgans


    Carvills Hill did jump hurdles, just didnt go to Cheltenham. Hammered Mixed Blends as a novice twice - Mixed Blends was runner-up in the Supreme to Vagador. Form simply didnt begin in 1988 with the Racing Post records.

    Dunguib wouldnt be eligible for the English St. Leger and I wouldnt be in too much of a rush to back him in the Irish one either. Its a completely different ball game.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70 ✭✭larsson7


    All about opinions mate, Rite of Passage will be flat campaigned and in all probability will take in the Irish Leger.
    Vintage Crop went on to win a Leger after running in a Champ hurdle.
    Its not that different if the horse has the undoubted speed and class of Dunquib


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,436 ✭✭✭Morgans


    larsson7 wrote: »
    All about opinions mate, Rite of Passage will be flat campaigned and in all probability will take in the Irish Leger.
    Vintage Crop went on to win a Leger after running in a Champ hurdle.
    Its not that different if the horse has the undoubted speed and class of Dunquib

    Of course its all about opinions. Vintage Crop was trained by one of the very best flat trainers in the history of the game - was younger than Dunguib when running in his last hurdle race. But running all over opponents in a champion bumper is very very different to taking on the best on the flat. Its not like its a November handicap that he will be up against, its up against proper Gp1 horses. I think to be sure you are going to outclass a St Leger field, you need to have a horse that is capable of placing in an Arc.

    A lot of the Dunguib for the St Leger stems from a) Dunguib beating Rite of Passage last year in the bumper b) Rite of passage winning the november handicap. Sure, you might as well say that Peddler's Cross should go for the St. Leger using ROP as a guide. Ive no problem with him taking a flat campaign, but while you havent said it, the idea that many hold: that Dunguib has to simply turn up in any race (flat or jumps) and collect the prizemoney is idiocy.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,210 ✭✭✭argosy2006


    beatdeadhorse.gif


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,838 ✭✭✭Nulty


    argosy2006 wrote: »
    <snip>

    I see your using the icon a lot argosy. Whats the occasion?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70 ✭✭larsson7


    Morgans wrote: »
    Of course its all about opinions. Vintage Crop was trained by one of the very best flat trainers in the history of the game - was younger than Dunguib when running in his last hurdle race. But running all over opponents in a champion bumper is very very different to taking on the best on the flat. Its not like its a November handicap that he will be up against, its up against proper Gp1 horses. I think to be sure you are going to outclass a St Leger field, you need to have a horse that is capable of placing in an Arc.

    A lot of the Dunguib for the St Leger stems from a) Dunguib beating Rite of Passage last year in the bumper b) Rite of passage winning the november handicap. Sure, you might as well say that Peddler's Cross should go for the St. Leger using ROP as a guide. Ive no problem with him taking a flat campaign, but while you havent said it, the idea that many hold: that Dunguib has to simply turn up in any race (flat or jumps) and collect the prizemoney is idiocy.

    Again its all open to debate there was a lot of talk about Alandi being bought for a hurdling campaign instead its obv been bought for a melbourne cup. Would Alandi win a Supreme, does it have more speed then Dunquib? Alandi def wudnt place in an Arc by the way! Would Istabraq have won an Irish Leger in its prime(7yo/8yo)?
    ROP wud easily beat Peddlers in a flat race and again Dunquib wud easily have won the supreme if there was no jumps, imo. It is flat we are talking about which obv involves being able to cruise at much higher speeds then jump races and imo Dunquib does have this cruising speed (much moreso then ROP and thats why its comparable) and over the longer distance flat races an electric turn of foot is not essential.
    My main and real only reasoning of suggesting it as Group 1 class is its sheer cruising speed.
    And oh yeah it wont win anything with a point to point trainer in either code imo


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,210 ✭✭✭argosy2006


    Nulty wrote: »
    I see your using the icon a lot argosy. Whats the occasion?

    twice, LoL
    i thought duiguib done well, better horse won, maybe star and duiguib over hyped ,
    people are talking like it should have won easily, like there was no challenge,


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,838 ✭✭✭Nulty


    argosy2006 wrote: »
    twice, LoL
    i thought duiguib done well, better horse won, maybe star and duiguib over hyped ,
    people are talking like it should have won easily, like there was no challenge,

    Fair enough, I just saw 2 of your posts and both of them had that in it. It makes a point but its really annoting on the page!

    Anyway, I haven't read anywhere that someone thought Gunguib would have won easily and I don't think that myself. What many (not all) people are saying is that with the proper ride he would have won by a nse/ nck/ 1/2l.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Whyno


    larsson7 wrote: »
    Again its all open to debate there was a lot of talk about Alandi being bought for a hurdling campaign instead its obv been bought for a melbourne cup. Would Alandi win a Supreme, does it have more speed then Dunquib? Alandi def wudnt place in an Arc by the way! Would Istabraq have won an Irish Leger in its prime(7yo/8yo)?
    ROP wud easily beat Peddlers in a flat race and again Dunquib wud easily have won the supreme if there was no jumps, imo. It is flat we are talking about which obv involves being able to cruise at much higher speeds then jump races and imo Dunquib does have this cruising speed (much moreso then ROP and thats why its comparable) and over the longer distance flat races an electric turn of foot is not essential.
    My main and real only reasoning of suggesting it as Group 1 class is its sheer cruising speed.
    And oh yeah it wont win anything with a point to point trainer in either code imo

    Compare both Dunguib and Rite of passage to Yeats....Would you compare both of these to him.Are they Better? I dont think theyd be in his league but i do think that both are genuine group performers on the flat over staying distances. Its a whole different ball game when you step up to group 1 division.
    Why wouldnt alandi place in the Arc.Hes a top class stayer and defo would be in the first 6 in an arc on soft going which is what he needs.


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