The future of the catholic church in Ireland

Xluna

prinz wrote: »

Yes you are. Please go and look into the concept of infallibility. It was only defined in 1870 centuries after the world was believed to be flat, and is a power that has been exercised only once since 1870. So no, the Pope is not always right.



http://www.zenit.org/article-13698?l=english



Contributing to the spead of AIDS as the sole promoted means to combat it and causing AIDS are two very different claims.

The whole concept of Papal infallibility seems very convoluted to me. Even if it was only defined in the 1870s I assume they regard it as existing prior to that period,right? I don't understand how it can be excercised arbitarily. I would have thought the Pope is either infallible or he is'nt. Is it case of the holy spirit makes him infallible on certain occasions? What did the one incidence pertain to exactly?

As for the contraceptive issue;are you saying that the Pope believes a combination of education,self discipline and condoms is the best measure? I think that would be best but I also believe that using condoms soley is better than none of the above.

prinz

Xluna wrote: »

The whole concept of Papal infallibility seems very convoluted to me. Even if it was only defined in the 1870s I assume they regard it as existing prior to that period,right? I don't understand how it can be excercised arbitarily. I would have thought the Pope is either infallible or he is'nt. Is it case of the holy spirit makes him infallible on certain occasions? What did the one incidence pertain to exactly?.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

Knock yourself out.

Xluna wrote: »

As for the contraceptive issue;are you saying that the Pope believes a combination of education,self discipline and condoms is the best measure? I think that would be best but I also believe that using condoms soley is better than none of the above.

The Pope believes that what the Catholic Church teaches is the best measure, just like the CEO of Durex is not interested in promoting abstinence, the Pope is not going to promote condom usage, however the best results in the fight against AIDS has occured when behavioural and moral changes have occured alongside increased education and condom use. Unfortunately there are people out these who want to remove the teachings of people such as the Catholic Church and rely solely on condom distribution. In the eyes of the Pope he said such a course of action may aggravate the problem of AIDS and not stop/contain it's spread. He was indeed correct. Without the accompanying changes in sexual behaviour and education flooding a market with condoms will not have the desired effect.

Xluna

prinz wrote: »

http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

Knock yourself out.



The Pope believes that what the Catholic Church teaches is the best measure, just like the CEO of Durex is not interested in promoting abstinence, the Pope is not going to promote condom usage, however the best results in the fight against AIDS has occured when behavioural and moral changes have occured alongside increased education and condom use. Unfortunately there are people out these who want to remove the teachings of people such as the Catholic Church and rely solely on condom distribution. In the eyes of the Pope he said such a course of action may aggravate the problem of AIDS and not stop/contain it's spread. He was indeed correct. Without the accompanying changes in sexual behaviour and education flooding a market with condoms will not have the desired effect.

According to the teaching of the First Vatican Council and Catholic tradition, the conditions required for ex cathedra teaching are as follows:
1. "the Roman Pontiff"2. "speaks ex cathedra" ("that is, when in the discharge of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority….")3. "he defines"4. "that a doctrine concerning faith or morals"5. "must be held by the whole Church" (Pastor Aeternus, chap. For a teaching by a pope or ecumenical council to be recognized as infallible, the teaching must make it clear that the Church is to consider it definitive and binding. There is not any specific phrasing required for this, but it is usually indicated by one or both of the following:

• a verbal formula indicating that this teaching is definitive (such as "We declare, decree and define..."), or
• an accompanying anathema stating that anyone who deliberately dissents is outside the Catholic Church.

Now this is what I considered papal infallibility to be. But the church only recently apologised to Gallileo for br his scientific discoveries and branded him a heretic,so would'nt that Popes persecution of such scientists and incorrect scientific opinions have satisfied the above criteria? Such views were proved false. So would that not contradict Papal infallibility?

Contraception: Again I agree that a combination of preventative measures are the best prevention,but as the Pope discourages the use of condoms is he not discouraging the best prevention,and again contradicting Papal infallibility?

prinz

Xluna wrote: »

....so would'nt that Popes persecution of such scientists and incorrect scientific opinions have satisfied the above criteria? Such views were proved false. So would that not contradict Papal infallibility?

No, since doing so has nothing to do with a doctrine of the faith. The Pope could turn around tomorrow and declare that grass is in fact orange. Is that infallible? No, it is not a doctrine of the Catholic faith. You don't here people declaring in mass their belief that the world is still flat do you? Was it ever a doctrine in Catholic faith?

Xluna wrote: »

Contraception: Again I agree that a combination of preventative measures are the best prevention,but as the Pope discourages the use of condoms is he not discouraging the best prevention,and again contradicting Papal infallibility?

No.

PDN

Xluna wrote: »

Now this is what I considered papal infallibility to be. But the church only recently apologised to Gallileo for br his scientific discoveries and branded him a heretic,so would'nt that Popes persecution of such scientists and incorrect scientific opinions have satisfied the above criteria? Such views were proved false. So would that not contradict Papal infallibility?

No, papal infallibility (which I don't believe in btw) only applies to ex cathedra statements and ecumenical councils. None of these are relevant to the Galileo case.

Contraception: Again I agree that a combination of preventative measures are the best prevention,but as the Pope discourages the use of condoms is he not discouraging the best prevention,and again contradicting Papal infallibility?

Again, there have been no ex cathedra statements or ecumenical councils that have addressed the issue of AIDS or HIV - so papal infallibility has nothing to do with it.

I forget which Pope it was, but one was reputed to have said something along the lines of: "I believe in papal infallibility - but you won't catch this Pope making any infallible statements."

Btw, the Pope's position on condoms and HIV is a sociological one, not a scientific one. He is arguing that increased availability of condoms can promote a culture of increased promiscuity and infidelity, thereby creating societal conditions where more people also engage in unprotected sex, thereby increasing rates of HIV infection. You might not agree with him, but it would be ignorant to claim that he is therefore making a scientific error, and more ignorant again to argue that in any way affects papal infalllibility.

hinault

With regard to papal infallibility and the Earth being flat, it was never a case that belief in the Earth being flat was a central tenet of the RC faith, aside from the fact that infallibility was only invoked since the late 19th century.

Infallibility is rarely invoked.

Ultravid

All you want to know about infallibility:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp