How do you explain ghosts/the supernatural?

Fluorescence

Hey all, newb to this forum

I'm curious if any atheists in here believe in ghosts etc? Have you seen one? Heard a story about one? If so, do you believe what you saw was real? How do you explain these sort of phenomena if you don't?

Mods, sorry if this is in the wrong place!

doctoremma

fluorescence wrote: »

How do you explain these sort of phenomena

G and T. Or a cheeky Chablis.

fluorescence

fluorescence wrote: »

Hey all, newb to this forum

I'm curious if any atheists in here believe in ghosts etc? Have you seen one? Heard a story about one? If so, do you believe what you saw was real? How do you explain these sort of phenomena if you don't?

Mods, sorry if this is in the wrong place!

Atheism is just a position on the subject of gods.
There's nothing in the atheist's bible that forbids a belief in ghosts or other supernatural stuff.

I'm fairly sure there's a few atheists who post over in the paranormal forum.

I have heard plenty of ghost stories and seen/heard some spooky stuff.
However every single one of those experiences had (or at least probably had) rational explanations.

This is the case with every single paranormal phenomenon scientifically investigated.

Ickle Magoo

fluorescence wrote: »

Hey all, newb to this forum

I'm curious if any atheists in here believe in ghosts etc? Have you seen one? Heard a story about one? If so, do you believe what you saw was real? How do you explain these sort of phenomena if you don't?

Mods, sorry if this is in the wrong place!

Well, from this atheists perspective, it is a bit like "god" in that I've never seen convincing evidence for ghosts nor encountered one first hand. Also a bit like "god", I would think if ghosts did exist, we would have some kind of inarguable evidence to support that theory...so at the moment, jury is out.

I love the horror and fantasy genres so I like the idea of ghosts even if I don't think they really exist.

Daftendirekt

I don't believe in the paranormal, but it's still an area I find quite interesting. I love 'haunted' houses, and generally creepy stuff. While the existence of deities doesn't interest me all that much, I'd actually love for ghosts 'n' ghouls to exist. I don't really know why though. I think it's a nostalgic thing - when I was younger I did believe in the supernatural, and I used to get a real kick out of sneaking into abandoned old buildings that I thought were haunted with a few friends.

I love supernatural literature and art too.

iUseVi

Daftendirekt wrote: »

I don't believe in the paranormal, but it's still an area I find quite interesting. I love 'haunted' houses, and generally creepy stuff. While the existence of deities doesn't interest me all that much, I'd actually love for ghosts 'n' ghouls to exist. I don't really know why though. I think it's a nostalgic thing - when I was younger I did believe in the supernatural, and I used to get a real kick out of sneaking into abandoned old buildings that I thought were haunted with a few friends.

I love supernatural literature and art too.

Whilst atheism is only a position on gods, I'd imagine 95% plus don't believe in any supernatural stuff. But a minority do. Not me.

Fluorescence

King Mob wrote: »

Atheism is just a position on the subject of gods.
There's nothing in the atheist's bible that forbids a belief in ghosts or other supernatural stuff.

I'm fairly sure there's a few atheists who post over in the paranormal forum.

I know that, I just figured that people who don't believe in a god would be less likely to believe in Duality (that we have a consciousness that is seperate somehow from our physical selves), which is why I wanted to see how they'd explain the paranormal :P

iUseVi

fluorescence wrote: »

I know that, I just figured that people who don't believe in a god would be less likely to believe in Duality (that we have a consciousness that is seperate somehow from our physical selves), which is why I wanted to see how they'd explain the paranormal :P

I don't imagine they try to explain it, at least not rationally. I mean just how do you explain ghosts or a soul rationally. You can't.

liamw

fluorescence wrote: »

I know that, I just figured that people who don't believe in a god would be less likely to believe in Duality (that we have a consciousness that is seperate somehow from our physical selves), which is why I wanted to see how they'd explain the paranormal :P

I'd be interested in hearing an explanation from an atheist also, and why they dismiss the idea of God while entertaining that of the supernatural. But I doubt there is many at all.

sink

How do you explain ghosts/the supernatural?

Brain fuck ups.

Human perception is incredibly flawed, we only observer a fraction of what we encounter, and the glimpses we do observe can completely fool our perception. More often than not what we think we see is not what we see at all. It's the reason eyewitness accounts are worth diddly squat to science.

krudler

Im as skeptical as they come for ghosts and all that, but my girlfriends grandmothers house is a very creepy place to be in, often she hears people walking around upstairs and one night she clearly heard someone running up and down the stairs, punding on the steps. three people have died in that house over the last decade or so and theres a very creep air to the place all the time. Im of the view that if I cant see it, chances are it doesnt exist, but its definitely not a nice place to spend any amount of time in

Flamed Diving

I reckon there is a simple evolutionary reason why humans always feel like someone is watching them when they are alone in the dark. It's a survival instinct. We are most vulnerable when we are alone and one of our senses are dampened. Our body kicks us into a heightened state of alert where we will think that the slightest movement from the corner of our eye is something to be afraid of. But this is all proto-humans in the savannah stuff. Dress all of this in the cultural meme of spirits wandering around and you have the solution.

liamw

sink wrote: »

Brain fuck ups.

Human perception is incredibly flawed, we only observer a fraction of what we encounter, and the glimpses we do observe can completely fool our perception. More often than not what we think we see is not what we see at all. It's the reason eyewitness accounts are worth diddly squat to science.

Indeed. It's called hyperactive agency detection. It's clearly an evolutionary adaptation to assume, for instance, that a shadow is an enemy or predator rather than a branch of a tree or whatever (even if it's more likely to be benign than not).

GirlOfGlass

I always hear stories off people saying they've seen ghosts and what not, and I never know whether or not to believe it. Like once when my sister was in the house on her own, she swore she heard noises in one of the other bedrooms, like really loud noises and she swears she didn't just think she heard them, so she locked her bedroom door and rang a neighbour to come and check the house, and as expected, there was nothing there. I think to believe in something like that you'd have to see it through your own eyes, just like 'god'. I find it hard to believe in something so 'dreamlike'. I hope death proves me wrong.
But then again, when I'm in the house on my own and I hear something, I instantly think it's a ghost or something paranormal. Hypocrite, I know.

Columbia

I've had 2 pretty inexplicable things pop up in front of me in my life, and my girlfriend (along with about 5 of her friends) also had another experience which was pretty compelling.

I wouldn't say I believe in ghosts, but I certainly don't reject their possibilty as much as I reject that of religion. So from that perspective, there is some discrepancy in my beliefs.

I suppose if ghosts do exist, I would expect there to be some physical reason for them, one which we could understand and rationalise eventually. Nothing to do with spirituality or "the soul".

liamw

GirlOfGlass wrote: »

I always hear stories off people saying they've seen ghosts and what not, and I never know whether or not to believe it. Like once when my sister was in the house on her own, she swore she heard noises in one of the other bedrooms, like really loud noises and she swears she didn't just think she heard them, so she locked her bedroom door and rang a neighbour to come and check the house, and as expected, there was nothing there. I think to believe in something like that you'd have to see it through your own eyes, just like 'god'. I find it hard to believe in something so 'dreamlike'. I hope death proves me wrong.
But then again, when I'm in the house on my own and I hear something, I instantly think it's a ghost or something paranormal. Hypocrite, I know.

Your sister isn't lying. Her brain and senses are fallible just like every other humans. I'm sure she was 100% sure in her own head about her experiences. But you need to look really hard and understand your brain is capable of delusion. You will come to the conclusion through reason and rational thought, that this was almost certainly just a delusionary experience.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Goduznt Xzst

fluorescence wrote: »

I'm curious if any atheists in here believe in ghosts etc?

No, although I am open to the idea that it's possible for events to occur in our Universe that would represent a complete paradigm shift in our current view of reality should we discover them. Certain aspects of Quantum Physics verges on the paranormal imo, but this is mainly due to how insane some of the hypotheses are.

However I neither accept nor reject these opinions as of yet, I'm just curious and open minded to them. I'm also a firm believer that behind every form of myth there is a grain of truth to be had.

Maybe Jesus made a 3 point basket, all net, from 70 yards out and the myth of his greatness spread, with each person adding their own little flavor to the story... and now, here we are. Here. We. Are.

Woow_Aqualung

I believe that if someone expects a ghosts they will be more likely to find one. People will generally find signs of a ghost at places of deaths as they're senses are heightened due to the fact that they expect a ghost to be present and because of this they begin to see and hear things. It's not a coincidence that most sighting of ghosts are at night when people's senses are further more heightened due to the dark.

Another theory is that electromagnetic energy might cause paranormal sightings. Many so-called "Ghost hunters" claim that ghosts can be detected by electromagnetic disturbances. Electromagnetic energy can distort the brains neural processes and cause irrational fear, paranoia and paranormal sightings. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet

GirlOfGlass

liamw wrote: »

Your sister isn't lying. Her brain and senses are fallible just like every other humans. I'm sure she was 100% sure in her own head about her experiences. But you need to look really hard and understand your brain is capable of delusion. You will come to the conclusion through reason and rational thought, that this was almost certainly just a delusionary experience.

But you can't tell for certain that these sounds were only in her mind. Like I said, you have to experience it for yourself to know the truth.

gonnaplayrugby

either there was some freak living in my parents room or ghost exist....im gonna go with the latter.

liamw

GirlOfGlass wrote: »

But you can't tell for certain that these sounds were only in her mind. Like I said, you have to experience it for yourself to know the truth.

I obviously can't prove anything for certain but lots of people have delusionary experiences all the time. Science is making great progress on providing naturalistic explanations for these experiences, through phenomena as I mentioned before such as hyperactive agency detection. The probablility lies very strongly in favour of delusion/misfiring.

Truth is not subjective in this sense. It is either true that your sister witnessed a ghost or it is false. You're sister's experience alone can not validate this. I've already explained that our brains are fallible, you do not seem to be digesting this.

liamw

gonnaplayrugby wrote: »

either there was some freak living in my parents room or ghost exist....im gonna go with the latter.

Damn, there's no third option? Why not?

Fluorescence

Woow_Aqualung wrote: »

I believe that if someone expects a ghosts they will be more likely to find one. People will generally find signs of a ghost at places of deaths as they're senses are heightened due to the fact that they expect a ghost to be present and because of this they begin to see and hear things. It's not a coincidence that most sighting of ghosts are at night when people's senses are further more heightened due to the dark.

Another theory is that electromagnetic energy might cause paranormal sightings. Many so-called "Ghost hunters" claim that ghosts can be detected by electromagnetic disturbances. Electromagnetic energy can distort the brains neural processes and cause irrational fear, paranoia and paranormal sightings. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet

I would agree for the most part with the first half of your post, however I have heard reports of "hauntings" in houses where it was only later discovered a death (or whatever else) had occured in the spot. That bit about electromagnetic energy looks very interesting actually, I must look further into that. That could explain a lot...

EDIT: I read in a book recently a pretty good description of the fallibility of the human brain that LiamW keeps talking about - how what we percieve isn't actually what the world is like etc. If I find it again I'll post it here.

GirlOfGlass

GirlOfGlass wrote: »

But you can't tell for certain that these sounds were only in her mind. Like I said, you have to experience it for yourself to know the truth.

Quite the opposite.
You don't have to directly experience anything to know for sure.
All you have to do is look at the objective evidence that rules out delusion or deception.

For ghost sightings and the lark, no such evidence exists.

We know for certain that the human mind and our senses are easily fooled, and that many various psychological and environmental phenomena are the cause of a few types of sightings.
There has never once ever been a single instance of one off these sightings been shown to be supernatural.

So unless this person can show evidence to the contrary we have no reason to believe is wasn't in her mind.

sink

GirlOfGlass wrote: »

But you can't tell for certain that these sounds were only in her mind. Like I said, you have to experience it for yourself to know the truth.

No, you can't trust your own senses they are just as fallible as anyone else's.

GirlOfGlass

liamw wrote: »

I obviously can't prove anything for certain but lots of people have delusionary experiences all the time. Science is making great progress on providing naturalistic explanations for these experiences, through phenomena as I mentioned before such as hyperactive agency detection. The probablility lies very strongly in favour of delusion/misfiring.

Truth is not subjective in this sense. It is either true that your sister witnessed a ghost or it is false. You're sister's experience alone can not validate this. I've already explained that our brains are fallible, you do not seem to be digesting this.

I understand that our brains can be fallible and I'm not saying that she didn't make up what she heard or did not hear in this case. My initial point was that I don't know what to believe.

spider guardian

Your handsome dead boyfriend is not gonna love you as a ghost.

Your dead relatives are not going to watch over you and protect you.

That old indian burial ground you built your house on will not consume your soul.

That noise or shadow you thought you heard/saw was probably just a ninja.

Sorry dude

Woow_Aqualung

Woow_Aqualung wrote: »

Another theory is that electromagnetic energy might cause paranormal sightings. Many so-called "Ghost hunters" claim that ghosts can be detected by electromagnetic disturbances. Electromagnetic energy can distort the brains neural processes and cause irrational fear, paranoia and paranormal sightings. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet

That's pretty unlikely.
Barring the fact that this "god helmet" isn't based on the soundest science and the guy doing it seems to be pretty biased.
In these experiments there are very strong magnetic field right next to the brain, so unless the ghost hunters are wearing these things the whole time or only do investigations in places with oddly high magnetic fields....

And even then there's no need for this theory to explain anything of what we hear about religious experiences.
They are usually explained pretty well with pure psychological and environmental effects.

liamw

GirlOfGlass wrote: »

I understand that our brains can be fallible and I'm not saying that she didn't make up what she heard or did not hear in this case. My initial point was that I don't know what to believe.

I don't for one second think that she made it up! That's not the point. You said you didn't know what to believe and I'm just trying to help you understand the naturalistic explanation. You can take it or leave it.

GirlOfGlass

liamw wrote: »

I don't for one second think that she made it up! That's not the point. You said you didn't know what to believe and I'm just trying to help you understand the naturalistic explanation. You can take it or leave it.

Taken.

del88

Mental illness....scamers (Derek Acorah)....religious euphoria...media hype...natural human fear....social conditioning....drugs....drink......lies....

Dave!

They nearly all have simple rational, natural explanations, and for those who don't, the person telling the story (aren't they always either anecdotes or else photos) could be lying, or mistaken, or embellishing, or being influenced by others' claims, or else their perception is being tricked.

There's lots of explanations that make more sense than 'a ghost'

Zombrex

fluorescence wrote: »

How do you explain these sort of phenomena

I don't

Trying to explain things when you don't actually have an explanation is what gets people into trouble.

"Supernatural explanation" is just another word for "guess"

Canis Lupus

Labelling something a phenomena almost gives it credence. Personally I've lost count of the times I've woken up to scary looking **** in my bedroom that after a few seconds looking resolve into the shadows of ordinary bedroom junk. It's all simply imagination running wild and not helped by years of scary Hollywood movies (damn j00 Aliens)

I don't believe in any of it.

Wacker

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Maybe Jesus made a 3 point basket, all net, from 70 yards out and the myth of his greatness spread, with each person adding their own little flavor to the story... and now, here we are. Here. We. Are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7CyP54B25w

Jesus, is that you.....?

Oh, I am sooo going to hell!:D

mjg

People are capable of believing anything.:(

Off topic I know, but on my way to work this morning I saw a poster for a "Psychic to the stars", can't remember the name, who will be appearing here Saturday week.

I'd love to go, just to see her antics but I don't think that I could bring myself to hand over the €15, it would sicken me a little to think that I was helping to fund her "career".



I wonder if I snuck in would she sense my presence and denounce me from the stage!:eek:

gonnaplayrugby

spider guardian wrote: »

Your handsome dead boyfriend is not gonna love you as a ghost.

Your dead relatives are not going to watch over you and protect you.

That old indian burial ground you built your house on will not consume your soul.

That noise or shadow you thought you heard/saw was probably just a ninja.

Sorry dude

How about the voice that called out to me and my sister one night? There was nobody in the room....NOBODY. I'm sorry but somtimes there is a need to be a little open. Anything is possible.

I don't even believe in ghosts but there is a great chance after what I heard that night. Both myself and my sister heard it and our story has never changed.

fatmammycat

I don't believe in ghosts, fairies, vampires, JC(;):):pac::pac::pac::pac::P,) fire breathing dragons, reiki ( vomits), crystals, animal telepaths, telepaths, fortune readers, Joe Coleman, Saints, Angels, Hell, Heaven, Demons, God, Saten,Demonic posession, spirit guides, that water reacts emotionally to yelling ( no seriously) or any other ridiculous clap trap people put a lot of unsubstantiated stock in. It is BEYOND belief -to me-that so many people vocally believe so much rubbish.

iUseVi

gonnaplayrugby wrote: »

How about the voice that called out to me and my sister one night? There was nobody in the room....NOBODY. I'm sorry but somtimes there is a need to be a little open. Anything is possible.

Is anything possible, really? There are a hundred explanations for a perceived voice that are more plausible before you reach ghosts. Wind, hallucinations, practical joke, radio playing up etc.

gonnaplayrugby

well maby it was a voice from another dimension or some crap but the joke, hallucination and radio guesses are less plausible than it being a ghost

Dr. Loon

gonnaplayrugby wrote: »

well maby it was a voice from another dimension or some crap but the joke, hallucination and radio guesses are less plausible than it being a ghost

How so? What about the wind?

I've had a few experiences in my life, that at the time convinced me there were ghosts.
The first was a graveyard when I was younger, where I heard whailing and chains rattling. At the time I was scared shítless, but shortly after it happened I thought about it logically and realised it was either a practical joke or an expectation of my brain, a delusion.

The second was a friends house, where someone tapped me on the shoulder, but there was no-one there. This house was beside the same graveyard from above. I told me friend what had happened and he said weird **** always happened in the house. I now think that he had told me this before and I'd forgotten. Also, the fact that this graveyard was involved probably had some unconscious associations in my brain.

The third was in London in my sisters house. She had claimed she thought there was a ghost in the house. I woke up one night but couldn't move, and something was shuffling around the end of my bed. I was gripped by fear and trying to scream but nothing was coming out. Eventually I became unfrozen and all was fine. I've since learned these episodes are known as night terrors. I get them all the time to this day. They still scare the **** out of me, but I know there's no ghosts involved.

What about this one recently....
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=64946754#post64946754

iUseVi

gonnaplayrugby wrote: »

well maby it was a voice from another dimension or some crap but the joke, hallucination and radio guesses are less plausible than it being a ghost

Wait....a voice from another dimension is more plausible than a joke or an hallucination. Give me a break.

rccaulfield

Supernatural= ghosts, god and fairies for me. Id stay in any house anywhere for a bet.

Flamed Diving

gonnaplayrugby wrote: »

well maby it was a voice from another dimension or some crap but the joke, hallucination and radio guesses are less plausible than it being a ghost

How is a hallucination the less plausible explanation? One is a well studied and documented psychological phenomena, well known to science for at least 150 years. The other is an unfounded, uncorroborated claim that homo sapiens leave some trace of themselves behind after they die, despite the fact that no other species does this, for no other reason other that other species don't have the intelligence to come up with such an idea... hmmmm. One has tonnes of evidence to back its case and can actually be demonstrated in the laboratory. The other has spurious evidence at best, and in no way can be tested for, just like all of the supernatural.

When you think about it, some mild hallucination was probably the best guess of this above group. That or my evolutionary explanation above.

Nitochris

I'd go with the general academic conclusions:

Underlying psychological needs, e.g. recently bereaved
Many ghost encounters can be explained by misinterpretation of events like creaking floorboards
Ghost narratives often act as memento mori
legend tripping
Some may be fraudulent to drum up business for a "haunted attraction" or could have been faked by dishonest researchers, the infamous Harry Price Borley Rectory affair come to mind.

Incidentally ghosts no longer rely on a belief in life after death. RC Finucane in his "Appearances of the dead: a cultural history of ghosts" has suggested that this shifted with the decline of religion in the past century, resulting in the scientification ghosts. This means that ghosts no longer have much to say about the afterlife (they use to leave messages) and are often explained using scientific sounding theories, like stone acting as a recording device (there was a good horror film on bbc years ago using this called The Stone Tape).

Galvasean

A nice liitle video that may address some of tha points made here in this thread. From 53 seconds on there is an example related to ghosts. The full video is well worth the watch if you have the time.

gonnaplayrugby

Flamed Diving wrote: »

How is a hallucination the less plausible explanation? One is a well studied and documented psychological phenomena, well known to science for at least 150 years. The other is an unfounded, uncorroborated claim that homo sapiens leave some trace of themselves behind after they die, despite the fact that no other species does this, for no other reason other that other species don't have the intelligence to come up with such an idea... hmmmm. One has tonnes of evidence to back its case and can actually be demonstrated in the laboratory. The other has spurious evidence at best, and in no way can be tested for, just like all of the supernatural.

When you think about it, some mild hallucination was probably the best guess of this above group. That or my evolutionary explanation above.

Nope. Two of us heard it.

gonnaplayrugby

Galvasean wrote: »

A nice liitle video taht may address some of teh points made here in this thread. From 53 secons on tehre is an example related to ghosts. The full video is well worth the watch if you have the time.

poor video, that would be like me sayin a ghost exists becase paper flew off my table when i had the window opened. my experience was hearing a clear and audible voice which my sister also heard.

gonnaplayrugby

gonnaplayrugby wrote: »

Nope. Two of us heard it.

Well how do you know both of you heard it?
Maybe one heard something and the other simply became convinced they heard something after the fact.
Or they where humouring the other person.
Or they where taking the piss and trying to frighten them.
Or it was part of a poorly executed practical joke.
Or there was another person in the house someone wanted to keep hidden.
Or ......

And so on and so on.

Do you honestly think that ghosts are more likely than any of these or the hundreds of other rational explanations it could be?

Or of course there's the possibility an anonymous person on the internet isn't being truthful...

Flamed Diving

gonnaplayrugby wrote: »

Nope. Two of us heard it.

It is still more likely that both of you were hallucinating then:

The unfounded, uncorroborated claim that homo sapiens leave some trace of themselves behind after they die, despite the fact that no other species does this

Sorry. But there are plenty of more likely explanations for this than the fantastical. Allow me to demonstrate, the following are more likely than the statement above:

• Someone had spiked both of your drinks/dinner with drugs
• You are both lying
• You are both mistaken
• Someone crept into your room
• A bird near the window sounded like a voice
• You were both hallucinating naturally
• Your sister is deceiving you
• Someone was playing a joke
• Can anyone add to this list?

I hope you don't take offence to the above, I am merely offering explanations which, in terms of probability, offer more than the unprovable. When you are ready to offer a method of testing for the supernatural in a double-blind, scientific test (the same test that all hypotheses must be run through) then I will be willing to consider the spook story. But you have no evidence. Nothing. Just an alleged voice. Do you not realise how shaky the ground is where you stand? It's not even vapour.