How do you explain ghosts/the supernatural?

Fluorescence

Hey all, newb to this forum

I'm curious if any atheists in here believe in ghosts etc? Have you seen one? Heard a story about one? If so, do you believe what you saw was real? How do you explain these sort of phenomena if you don't?

Mods, sorry if this is in the wrong place!

doctoremma

fluorescence wrote: »

How do you explain these sort of phenomena

G and T. Or a cheeky Chablis.

fluorescence

fluorescence wrote: »

Hey all, newb to this forum

I'm curious if any atheists in here believe in ghosts etc? Have you seen one? Heard a story about one? If so, do you believe what you saw was real? How do you explain these sort of phenomena if you don't?

Mods, sorry if this is in the wrong place!

Atheism is just a position on the subject of gods.
There's nothing in the atheist's bible that forbids a belief in ghosts or other supernatural stuff.

I'm fairly sure there's a few atheists who post over in the paranormal forum.

I have heard plenty of ghost stories and seen/heard some spooky stuff.
However every single one of those experiences had (or at least probably had) rational explanations.

This is the case with every single paranormal phenomenon scientifically investigated.

Ickle Magoo

fluorescence wrote: »

Hey all, newb to this forum

I'm curious if any atheists in here believe in ghosts etc? Have you seen one? Heard a story about one? If so, do you believe what you saw was real? How do you explain these sort of phenomena if you don't?

Mods, sorry if this is in the wrong place!

Well, from this atheists perspective, it is a bit like "god" in that I've never seen convincing evidence for ghosts nor encountered one first hand. Also a bit like "god", I would think if ghosts did exist, we would have some kind of inarguable evidence to support that theory...so at the moment, jury is out.

I love the horror and fantasy genres so I like the idea of ghosts even if I don't think they really exist.

Daftendirekt

I don't believe in the paranormal, but it's still an area I find quite interesting. I love 'haunted' houses, and generally creepy stuff. While the existence of deities doesn't interest me all that much, I'd actually love for ghosts 'n' ghouls to exist. I don't really know why though. I think it's a nostalgic thing - when I was younger I did believe in the supernatural, and I used to get a real kick out of sneaking into abandoned old buildings that I thought were haunted with a few friends.

I love supernatural literature and art too.

iUseVi

Daftendirekt wrote: »

I don't believe in the paranormal, but it's still an area I find quite interesting. I love 'haunted' houses, and generally creepy stuff. While the existence of deities doesn't interest me all that much, I'd actually love for ghosts 'n' ghouls to exist. I don't really know why though. I think it's a nostalgic thing - when I was younger I did believe in the supernatural, and I used to get a real kick out of sneaking into abandoned old buildings that I thought were haunted with a few friends.

I love supernatural literature and art too.

Whilst atheism is only a position on gods, I'd imagine 95% plus don't believe in any supernatural stuff. But a minority do. Not me.

Fluorescence

King Mob wrote: »

Atheism is just a position on the subject of gods.
There's nothing in the atheist's bible that forbids a belief in ghosts or other supernatural stuff.

I'm fairly sure there's a few atheists who post over in the paranormal forum.

I know that, I just figured that people who don't believe in a god would be less likely to believe in Duality (that we have a consciousness that is seperate somehow from our physical selves), which is why I wanted to see how they'd explain the paranormal :P

iUseVi

fluorescence wrote: »

I know that, I just figured that people who don't believe in a god would be less likely to believe in Duality (that we have a consciousness that is seperate somehow from our physical selves), which is why I wanted to see how they'd explain the paranormal :P

I don't imagine they try to explain it, at least not rationally. I mean just how do you explain ghosts or a soul rationally. You can't.

liamw

fluorescence wrote: »

I know that, I just figured that people who don't believe in a god would be less likely to believe in Duality (that we have a consciousness that is seperate somehow from our physical selves), which is why I wanted to see how they'd explain the paranormal :P

I'd be interested in hearing an explanation from an atheist also, and why they dismiss the idea of God while entertaining that of the supernatural. But I doubt there is many at all.

sink

How do you explain ghosts/the supernatural?

Brain fuck ups.

Human perception is incredibly flawed, we only observer a fraction of what we encounter, and the glimpses we do observe can completely fool our perception. More often than not what we think we see is not what we see at all. It's the reason eyewitness accounts are worth diddly squat to science.

krudler

Im as skeptical as they come for ghosts and all that, but my girlfriends grandmothers house is a very creepy place to be in, often she hears people walking around upstairs and one night she clearly heard someone running up and down the stairs, punding on the steps. three people have died in that house over the last decade or so and theres a very creep air to the place all the time. Im of the view that if I cant see it, chances are it doesnt exist, but its definitely not a nice place to spend any amount of time in

Flamed Diving

I reckon there is a simple evolutionary reason why humans always feel like someone is watching them when they are alone in the dark. It's a survival instinct. We are most vulnerable when we are alone and one of our senses are dampened. Our body kicks us into a heightened state of alert where we will think that the slightest movement from the corner of our eye is something to be afraid of. But this is all proto-humans in the savannah stuff. Dress all of this in the cultural meme of spirits wandering around and you have the solution.

liamw

sink wrote: »

Brain fuck ups.

Human perception is incredibly flawed, we only observer a fraction of what we encounter, and the glimpses we do observe can completely fool our perception. More often than not what we think we see is not what we see at all. It's the reason eyewitness accounts are worth diddly squat to science.

Indeed. It's called hyperactive agency detection. It's clearly an evolutionary adaptation to assume, for instance, that a shadow is an enemy or predator rather than a branch of a tree or whatever (even if it's more likely to be benign than not).

GirlOfGlass

I always hear stories off people saying they've seen ghosts and what not, and I never know whether or not to believe it. Like once when my sister was in the house on her own, she swore she heard noises in one of the other bedrooms, like really loud noises and she swears she didn't just think she heard them, so she locked her bedroom door and rang a neighbour to come and check the house, and as expected, there was nothing there. I think to believe in something like that you'd have to see it through your own eyes, just like 'god'. I find it hard to believe in something so 'dreamlike'. I hope death proves me wrong.
But then again, when I'm in the house on my own and I hear something, I instantly think it's a ghost or something paranormal. Hypocrite, I know.

Columbia

I've had 2 pretty inexplicable things pop up in front of me in my life, and my girlfriend (along with about 5 of her friends) also had another experience which was pretty compelling.

I wouldn't say I believe in ghosts, but I certainly don't reject their possibilty as much as I reject that of religion. So from that perspective, there is some discrepancy in my beliefs.

I suppose if ghosts do exist, I would expect there to be some physical reason for them, one which we could understand and rationalise eventually. Nothing to do with spirituality or "the soul".

liamw

GirlOfGlass wrote: »

I always hear stories off people saying they've seen ghosts and what not, and I never know whether or not to believe it. Like once when my sister was in the house on her own, she swore she heard noises in one of the other bedrooms, like really loud noises and she swears she didn't just think she heard them, so she locked her bedroom door and rang a neighbour to come and check the house, and as expected, there was nothing there. I think to believe in something like that you'd have to see it through your own eyes, just like 'god'. I find it hard to believe in something so 'dreamlike'. I hope death proves me wrong.
But then again, when I'm in the house on my own and I hear something, I instantly think it's a ghost or something paranormal. Hypocrite, I know.

Your sister isn't lying. Her brain and senses are fallible just like every other humans. I'm sure she was 100% sure in her own head about her experiences. But you need to look really hard and understand your brain is capable of delusion. You will come to the conclusion through reason and rational thought, that this was almost certainly just a delusionary experience.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Goduznt Xzst

fluorescence wrote: »

I'm curious if any atheists in here believe in ghosts etc?

No, although I am open to the idea that it's possible for events to occur in our Universe that would represent a complete paradigm shift in our current view of reality should we discover them. Certain aspects of Quantum Physics verges on the paranormal imo, but this is mainly due to how insane some of the hypotheses are.

However I neither accept nor reject these opinions as of yet, I'm just curious and open minded to them. I'm also a firm believer that behind every form of myth there is a grain of truth to be had.

Maybe Jesus made a 3 point basket, all net, from 70 yards out and the myth of his greatness spread, with each person adding their own little flavor to the story... and now, here we are. Here. We. Are.

Woow_Aqualung

I believe that if someone expects a ghosts they will be more likely to find one. People will generally find signs of a ghost at places of deaths as they're senses are heightened due to the fact that they expect a ghost to be present and because of this they begin to see and hear things. It's not a coincidence that most sighting of ghosts are at night when people's senses are further more heightened due to the dark.

Another theory is that electromagnetic energy might cause paranormal sightings. Many so-called "Ghost hunters" claim that ghosts can be detected by electromagnetic disturbances. Electromagnetic energy can distort the brains neural processes and cause irrational fear, paranoia and paranormal sightings. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet

GirlOfGlass

liamw wrote: »

Your sister isn't lying. Her brain and senses are fallible just like every other humans. I'm sure she was 100% sure in her own head about her experiences. But you need to look really hard and understand your brain is capable of delusion. You will come to the conclusion through reason and rational thought, that this was almost certainly just a delusionary experience.

But you can't tell for certain that these sounds were only in her mind. Like I said, you have to experience it for yourself to know the truth.

gonnaplayrugby

either there was some freak living in my parents room or ghost exist....im gonna go with the latter.

liamw

GirlOfGlass wrote: »

But you can't tell for certain that these sounds were only in her mind. Like I said, you have to experience it for yourself to know the truth.

I obviously can't prove anything for certain but lots of people have delusionary experiences all the time. Science is making great progress on providing naturalistic explanations for these experiences, through phenomena as I mentioned before such as hyperactive agency detection. The probablility lies very strongly in favour of delusion/misfiring.

Truth is not subjective in this sense. It is either true that your sister witnessed a ghost or it is false. You're sister's experience alone can not validate this. I've already explained that our brains are fallible, you do not seem to be digesting this.

liamw

gonnaplayrugby wrote: »

either there was some freak living in my parents room or ghost exist....im gonna go with the latter.

Damn, there's no third option? Why not?

Fluorescence

Woow_Aqualung wrote: »

I believe that if someone expects a ghosts they will be more likely to find one. People will generally find signs of a ghost at places of deaths as they're senses are heightened due to the fact that they expect a ghost to be present and because of this they begin to see and hear things. It's not a coincidence that most sighting of ghosts are at night when people's senses are further more heightened due to the dark.

Another theory is that electromagnetic energy might cause paranormal sightings. Many so-called "Ghost hunters" claim that ghosts can be detected by electromagnetic disturbances. Electromagnetic energy can distort the brains neural processes and cause irrational fear, paranoia and paranormal sightings. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet

I would agree for the most part with the first half of your post, however I have heard reports of "hauntings" in houses where it was only later discovered a death (or whatever else) had occured in the spot. That bit about electromagnetic energy looks very interesting actually, I must look further into that. That could explain a lot...

EDIT: I read in a book recently a pretty good description of the fallibility of the human brain that LiamW keeps talking about - how what we percieve isn't actually what the world is like etc. If I find it again I'll post it here.

GirlOfGlass

GirlOfGlass wrote: »

But you can't tell for certain that these sounds were only in her mind. Like I said, you have to experience it for yourself to know the truth.

Quite the opposite.
You don't have to directly experience anything to know for sure.
All you have to do is look at the objective evidence that rules out delusion or deception.

For ghost sightings and the lark, no such evidence exists.

We know for certain that the human mind and our senses are easily fooled, and that many various psychological and environmental phenomena are the cause of a few types of sightings.
There has never once ever been a single instance of one off these sightings been shown to be supernatural.

So unless this person can show evidence to the contrary we have no reason to believe is wasn't in her mind.

sink

GirlOfGlass wrote: »

But you can't tell for certain that these sounds were only in her mind. Like I said, you have to experience it for yourself to know the truth.

No, you can't trust your own senses they are just as fallible as anyone else's.

GirlOfGlass

liamw wrote: »

I obviously can't prove anything for certain but lots of people have delusionary experiences all the time. Science is making great progress on providing naturalistic explanations for these experiences, through phenomena as I mentioned before such as hyperactive agency detection. The probablility lies very strongly in favour of delusion/misfiring.

Truth is not subjective in this sense. It is either true that your sister witnessed a ghost or it is false. You're sister's experience alone can not validate this. I've already explained that our brains are fallible, you do not seem to be digesting this.

I understand that our brains can be fallible and I'm not saying that she didn't make up what she heard or did not hear in this case. My initial point was that I don't know what to believe.

spider guardian

Your handsome dead boyfriend is not gonna love you as a ghost.

Your dead relatives are not going to watch over you and protect you.

That old indian burial ground you built your house on will not consume your soul.

That noise or shadow you thought you heard/saw was probably just a ninja.

Sorry dude

Woow_Aqualung

Woow_Aqualung wrote: »

Another theory is that electromagnetic energy might cause paranormal sightings. Many so-called "Ghost hunters" claim that ghosts can be detected by electromagnetic disturbances. Electromagnetic energy can distort the brains neural processes and cause irrational fear, paranoia and paranormal sightings. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet

That's pretty unlikely.
Barring the fact that this "god helmet" isn't based on the soundest science and the guy doing it seems to be pretty biased.
In these experiments there are very strong magnetic field right next to the brain, so unless the ghost hunters are wearing these things the whole time or only do investigations in places with oddly high magnetic fields....

And even then there's no need for this theory to explain anything of what we hear about religious experiences.
They are usually explained pretty well with pure psychological and environmental effects.

liamw

GirlOfGlass wrote: »

I understand that our brains can be fallible and I'm not saying that she didn't make up what she heard or did not hear in this case. My initial point was that I don't know what to believe.

I don't for one second think that she made it up! That's not the point. You said you didn't know what to believe and I'm just trying to help you understand the naturalistic explanation. You can take it or leave it.

GirlOfGlass

liamw wrote: »

I don't for one second think that she made it up! That's not the point. You said you didn't know what to believe and I'm just trying to help you understand the naturalistic explanation. You can take it or leave it.

Taken.