referendum to decide the future of the church

Erren Music

We need a census now on how many actual catholics there are in this country. Children under 18 should not be included in this census as they are too young to vote or join an army, therefore they are too young to be included.

Then we need to insist on a referendum to decide the future of the churches inclusion in government and continuing involvement in education.


However
With the church now imploding from sexual scandals all across Europe and the deafening silence from the pope, and the inability of anyone in the "worlds largest paedo ring" to acknowledge this without sounding crass the government should immediately remove the church from the contolling the primary schools and instigate criminal investigation into all its diocese's.

Yakult

Being a athiest rocks

Hank_Jones

Also Atheist.

Prefer my fairy tales to have witches and goblins..

brianthebard

We're not that kind of republic.

dr.fuzzenstein

I just can't understand why anyone still pays any heed to what comes out of this medieval relic of an organisation.
The only goals of the church where getting rich and controlling people and if you abused a few of them along the way, sure what does it matter.
Dissolve the organisation and don't allow any of them to leave the country pending an investigation.
No better than Nazis (who the church secretly supported by the way).
The worst ones should be hung.

MaybeLogic

It's not a constitutional matter, it's an ecumenical one.

The church is dying out.

Another 20/30 years and not much attention will be paid to them.

DublinWriter

rarnes1 wrote: »

The church is dying out.

Another 20/30 years and not much attention will be paid to them.

Oh, we said that back in the early 80's...

Son Of A Vidic

DublinWriter wrote: »

Oh, we said that back in the early 80's...

A lot of sh1t has happened since the early 80's unfortunately. People are finally seeing the church for the corrupt, hypocritical institution it really is.

Hank_Jones

To be honest I actually thought that the majority of people around my age were atheist. Or at least they didn't have much interest in religion.

Unfortunately after speaking to a few people about religion, it appears that a large number of people hold religious beliefs (however small they may be).

I think people are just afraid of change.

Boards just doesn't represent real Ireland, unfortunately.

Pherekydes

Erren Music wrote: »

Children under 18 should not be included in this census as they are too young to ...join an army...

You can join the army at 16 with parental permission, or 17 without.

L.Jenkins

And what age range would you be in Hank. Im 25 and an Athiest myself.

Corkfeen

Hank_Jones wrote: »

To be honest I actually thought that the majority of people around my age were atheist. Or at least they didn't have much interest in religion.

Unfortunately after speaking to a few people about religion, it appears that a large number of people hold religious beliefs (however small they may be).

I think people are just afraid of change.

Boards just doesn't represent real Ireland, unfortunately.

Most of my year doesn't really think about religion. One is a major believer while I'd say most of my mates don't believe in anything.

bonerm

I already vote on this matter every day of my life by:
a) not designating myself a catholic
b) not visiting thier establishment of worship
c) not contributing financially to their concerns.
d) not spreading their views or teachings among the people I encounter.

bonerm

rarnes1 wrote: »

The church is dying out.

Another 20/30 years and not much attention will be paid to them.

You'd think that but people still get old and sick and scared every year.

Blazer

bonerm wrote: »

You'd think that but people still get old and sick and scared every year.

There's an old war saying "There are no atheists in foxholes"
It beggars belief (to me at least) that people still believe in this crap.
My own thoughts are that religion was and always will be a means of controlling people and ensuring the boys at the top have a nice rich life while the rest of the followers wallow in the shít.
And yet even with all the crap going on in the church regarding the sex abuse I still see people going to mass every Sunday Must be the closer you get to death the more religious you get...kinda cover your ass just in case

bnt

Plenty of discussion of this on the A&A forum, of course.

To me it's simple: freedom of religion includes the freedom not to have a religion imposed on you. The only way the govt. can keep everyone happy, in religious matters, is to be strictly neutral i.e. church/state separation from the Constitution on up. There are so many religions around, how do you know which of them is the right one? :rolleyes:

Rebelheart

R_H_C_P wrote: »

Being a athiest rocks

With all their certainty and zealousness, atheists are little, if any, better than religious believers. The irony.

stepbar

That would be a 'Father Jack' matter!

Agricola

Rebelheart wrote: »

With all their certainty and zealousness, atheists are little, if any, better than religious believers. The irony.

They dont prop up an organised paedophile ring though so they're ok in my book

dave 27

im neither a catholic or a church goer, im a protestant..but still pray for family and friends before i hit the sack, i think many people fall into this category..in relation to catholism..so eventhough people arent going to mass doesnt necessarily mean the religion is dying out

minidazzler

A Census isn't going to tell you the truth.

There are people who go directly against Catholic Doctrine, but still say they are Catholic and would say so on census forms.

PeterIanStaker

I'd love to say that its days are numbered, but its going to drag on another decade or two. Unfortunately. But, the upcoming generation, those under 40, should discard it as a way of making progress and not victimising any more innocent children.

lightspeed

Hank_Jones wrote: »

To be honest I actually thought that the majority of people around my age were atheist. Or at least they didn't have much interest in religion.

Unfortunately after speaking to a few people about religion, it appears that a large number of people hold religious beliefs (however small they may be).

I think people are just afraid of change.

Boards just doesn't represent real Ireland, unfortunately.

whats wrong with people having religious beliefs as long as they dont dictate and try to forces their beliefs on you?
im not religious but it does not bother me if somebody has a religion.
if atheists dictate their belief of not having a religion then what makes atheism any different than any other religion?
there are athesist organisations and it seems to be one of the most active forums and its based on believing nothing? i have no idea why a religion based on nothing has an organisation and theres probably even books on it somehow?
i find it hilarious that most people i know that believe in god never discuss or bother about religion and yet atheists that i have met seem to be often ravaging on and on about their religion. Why cant atheists just not believe in god an shut up about it? for me religion is like time travel. I dont know time travel does not exist but im yet to see it and i never think about it.

Overheal

minidazzler wrote: »

A Census isn't going to tell you the truth.

There are people who go directly against Catholic Doctrine, but still say they are Catholic and would say so on census forms.

So why not run a campaign to change the minds of those voters and relay to them the importance of not identifying Catholic for the sake of Identifying Catholic.

A Baptism, Confirmation, etc. - Despite what the Church would lead you to believe, are not real measures of faith. You know yourself what you believe. Or don't.

lightspeed

Overheal wrote: »

So why not run a campaign to change the minds of those voters and relay to them the importance of not identifying Catholic for the sake of Identifying Catholic.

just one question WHY?
we need to run such a campaign because it is of absolute importance because .........?

dave 27

lightspeed wrote: »

whats wrong with people having religious beliefs as long as they dont dictate and try to forces their beliefs on you?
im not religious but it does not bother me if somebody has a religion.
if atheists dictate their belief of not having a religion then what makes atheism any different than any other religion?
there are athesist organisations and it seems to be one of the most active forums and its based on believing nothing? i have no idea why a religion based on nothing has an organisation and theres probably even books on it somehow?
i find it hilarious that most people i know that believe in god never discuss or bother about religion and yet atheists that i have met seem to be often ravaging on and on about their religion. Why cant atheists just not believe in god an shut up about it? for me religion is like time travel. I dont know time travel does not exist but im yet to see it and i never think about it.

well said, exactly what i think too

Rebelheart

Agricola wrote: »

They dont prop up an organised paedophile ring though so they're ok in my book

You're not exactly setting a high standard for them, are you. Atheists have the basic (and much more) self-righteousness to organise themselves into an institution like the CC. Then, we can make a more accurate comparison.

There are more intelligent and less zealous belief systems than atheism, such as agnosticism.

dr.fuzzenstein

There is an important difference in being spiritual or belonging to the catholic church.
Not many of the "decent" folk who go to mass every day or every other could be described as very spiritual.
They go to mass and then go right back to making as much for themselves as they can and stab everyone else in the back, no ammount of lip service in church will make you a good person.
If you truly want to be spiritual, stay away from any form of organised religion.
Just because you don't like the church doesn't mean you're automatically forced to be an atheist.
Ever heard the term "Agnostic"?
(and Rebelheart beat me to it)

Agricola

Rebelheart wrote: »

There are more intelligent and less zealous belief systems than atheism, such as agnosticism.

I agree. Despite the very persuasive arguements of the new atheists which proclaim agnostisim to be ridiculous, I would still class myself as an Agnostic.

But this isnt the right forum for this discussion! This is a thread for CC bashing!

landsleaving

I'm most definitely an atheist, but that in no way gives me a right to criticize anyone else for their belief. Attack the guilty parties, not the faith.

I'm not, however, suggesting that the Catholic Church is anything but corrupt at the highest level with regard to its current actions, and anyone who either committed or covered up, or even attempted to justify what's gone on needs to be punished severely.

Dudess

Catholic church bashing is just so boring at this stage. I'm somewhere between atheist and agnostic.

Mike 1972

landsleaving wrote: »

I'm most definitely an atheist, but that in no way gives me a right to criticize anyone else for their belief.

What a Crock ?

So you reckon the likes of Westboro Baptist Church, Heavens Gate, Branch Davidians, the Taliban or Christian Identity should all be above criticism just because some people believe in these things ?

landsleaving

Sorry, I should have added, as long as they don't try to force their beliefs on others or do anything generally horrible. Then I can criticize away. I just meant it's not fair to criticize people for believing in God because some members of the Catholic church are abhorrent.

Those groups aren't so much faith as insanity and have nothing to do with the average religious or spiritiual person and it's hardly fair to equate them.

Mike 1972

Naw Im still not buying that.

You say a belief regardless of how ludicrous or harmful it may be is to be held above criticism merely because it is a belief ?

And questioning the churches inclusion in government and continuing involvement in education hardly amounts to "Church bashing"

landsleaving

As long as it doesn't affect anyone else negatively, what business is it of mine? Maybe criticism is the wrong word, condemnation is probably the right one. As in no one should be condemned for their beliefs as long as they aren't forced onto others or used to negatively affect them.

There's nothing wrong with debating it though.

Plus if it's harmful of course it's not above criticism. I never said that, that in itself would be ludicrous.

I don't think the church has any place in government, education or anything of that sort either, that would be forcing it's beliefs on others. I just think some people have been hard on people for being Catholics, as if that somehow makes them complicit in the crimes of certain members of their faith.

lucy2010

Is there a particular reason they control our schools ?? Im sorry but I cant understand why they still have access to our kids after all thats come out...... As a parent can you write a letter in the kids notebook-I wish for johnie to refrain from PE being anywhere near a priest today ? Just curious

Rebelheart

lucy2010 wrote: »

Is there a particular reason they control our schools ?? Im sorry but I cant understand why they still have access to our kids after all thats come out...... As a parent can you write a letter in the kids notebook-I wish for johnie to refrain from PE being anywhere near a priest today ? Just curious

The standard account on this development is John Coolahan's, Irish education: its history and structure (Dublin, 1981). Put "Catholic Church" into this and in 20 minutes of reading you'll have a very good idea of why and how they got control of our education system from about 1850 onwards, especially under the ultramontane archbishop of Dublin, Cardinal Paul Cullen.

Hank_Jones

landsleaving wrote: »

I'm most definitely an atheist, but that in no way gives me a right to criticize anyone else for their belief. Attack the guilty parties, not the faith.

I'm not, however, suggesting that the Catholic Church is anything but corrupt at the highest level with regard to its current actions, and anyone who either committed or covered up, or even attempted to justify what's gone on needs to be punished severely.

What about Scientology?

One belief of Scientology is that a human is an immortal alien spiritual being, termed a thetan, that is trapped on planet Earth in a physical body.

landsleaving

Scientology falls into the crazy bracket.

Now ssshh, before Tom Cruise gets us.

goose2005

minidazzler wrote: »

A Census isn't going to tell you the truth.

There are people who go directly against Catholic Doctrine, but still say they are Catholic and would say so on census forms.

Not to mention all the mammies who tick the box on their children's behalf. Without guilt-tripping mothers the RCC would have vanished centuries ago.

lightspeed wrote: »

Overheal wrote: »

So why not run a campaign to change the minds of those voters and relay to them the importance of not identifying Catholic for the sake of Identifying Catholic.

just one question WHY?
we need to run such a campaign because it is of absolute importance because .........?

Because of religious control of the Irish education and health system.

Naikon

Being an Atheist is great when it comes to daily matters, because I never feel guilty unless it's actually warranted. Bit sucky about death mind you. You know, not waking up again. No respawn

dr.fuzzenstein

I have decided on my new religion.
http://www.venganza.org/
It makes much more sense than Catholicism. Bunch of devils ramming red hot pokers up your ar*e for all eternity, even Father Dougal McGuire saw through that one!