Should state subsidisation of Irish private schools continue?

Dudess

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

Alessandra Jolly Pekinese wrote: »

Well I made good friends and had a good time so yes.

In fairness, the above has nothing to do with the fact it's a private school and could be applied to a graduate of any school, but fair points otherwise.

Rebelheart

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

Glenster wrote: »

Let's look at the facts:

Blackrock, St Michaels, Belvo, Gonzaga, Rockwell, Holy Child Killiney, Loreto Dalkey, Mount Merrion

Community College Esker, Mount Temple, St Fintans, Castleknock Community College, Our Lady's Secondary Templemore

The facts speak for themselves.

If fee paying schools were abolished and absolute equality enforced your kids might be forced to go to one of these schools.

Facts? Then there's Coláiste Eoin and Coláiste Iosagáin....or the fact that 33 of the top 50 "feeder schools" to university are not fee-paying....

melekalikimaka

the private system is subsidised by the PARENTS not the government... Just because you are required to pay the subsidy does not mean the funding should be cut, too many public school chip on shoulders here, alot of public schools ASK for subsidies from parents... do you think the government should take these into account and deducted the donated money from their grants?

I think not

melekalikimaka

Rebelheart wrote: »

33 of the top 50 "feeder schools" to university are not fee-paying[/url]....

what percentage of schools in the country are private, large but finite number of monkeys ring a bell

Fratton Fred

I am morally opposed to fee paying schools as I believe that all kids, regardless of their background, should have the best possible education.

However, if I am not happy with the school choices for my daughter, I will send her to a private school. Luckily the school we have planned for her has a good reputation.

Fratton Fred

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I am morally opposed to fee paying schools as I believe that all kids, regardless of their background, should have the best possible education.

However, if I am not happy with the school choices for my daughter, I will send her to a private school. Luckily the school we have planned for her has a good reputation.

What?
Contradiction much.

The_Minister

Dudess wrote: »

I don't think private schools should get a cent from the state - they are not a necessity.

So either parents pay every penny and the state contributes nothing, or they have to go fully public?

If parents are willing to 'top-up' the funds available for their child's education, why shouldn't they be allowed?

RayM

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

I'd much rather see that €100million (and a whole lot more) go to schools that genuinely need it. You know, the total shit-holes that have 40 kids crammed into prefabricated, damp, rat-infested classrooms, as opposed to the schools with their own private swimming pools, low class numbers and well-equipped music rooms.

It seems a bit shit (actually, it's totally unjustifiable) that parents of children going to disadvantaged schools are effectively subsidising the privileged few, who can afford to give their kids "that all-important head-start" in life.

As for banning private schools - perhaps if there was a bit of genuine equality in this country, and the rich and powerful had no choice but to send their kids to state run schools along with everyone else, the general quality of them would improve very quickly, thus negating the "need" for private education.

The_Minister

Alessandra Jolly Pekinese wrote: »

What?
Contradiction much.

Not really.

He wants, on principle, to send his child to a publix school, but recognises that if the only ones he can get her into are ****, he will shell out so that his ideals don't ruin her reputation.

Dudess

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

melekalikimaka wrote: »

too many public school chip on shoulders here

It's not necessarily because of having a chip on the shoulder at all. Why is that always assumed on these threads?

The_Minister wrote: »

So either parents pay every penny and the state contributes nothing, or they have to go fully public?

Yes - as I said, these schools are not necessary.

byhookorbycrook

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

Alessandra Jolly Pekinese wrote: »

.

Im in college and 99% of my year are.The school is in the top 20 on the Irish times leaving cert list,so clearly the education is better as the result of smaller classes,not better teachers imo.

The so-called top twentylist is so badly skewed it is almost funny. Well off parents send a lot of children to a nearby university. Define a good education??
Is a school that helps a child with special needs pass the Leaving a better school than one that sends a child from a background where there is support, money for grinds etc. on the minimum grades to some uni course?Which is of the greater worth to us as a society??

melekalikimaka

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

The so-called top twentylist is so badly skewed it is almost funny.

this is very true and has been brought up countless times... it means nothing... it includes repeats

byhookorbycrook

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

The so-called top twentylist is so badly skewed it is almost funny. Well off parents send a lot of children to a nearby university. Define a good education??
Is a school that helps a child with special needs pass the Leaving a better school than one that sends a child from a background where there is support, money for grinds etc. on the minimum grades to some uni course?Which is of the greater worth to us as a society??

All I said was I went and would send my kids to a private school because I feel they will get a better education and will emerge with alot more than simply an education once finished.

Im not getting into a debate on how they benefit society.

sagat2

Since the people who send their kids to private schools in general pay a lot more in taxes than those who don't then where is the problem exactly? You want to take the 100 million away from private schools then great. Lets make up for it by having the wealthy pay the same amount of tax towards education as the average peasant, that way they can afford the higher fees private schools will have to charge to cover the shortfall.

That 100 million is easily covered by the extra taxes the people who send their kids to private school pay above those that don't so it's not like Mick the toilet cleaner is personally paying for the private schools.

Rebelheart

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

melekalikimaka wrote: »

what percentage of schools in the country are private, large but finite number of monkeys ring a bell

According to The Irish Times on 29 September 2009, there are 28,000 students in 55 fee-paying schools in the state named Ireland. Yet out of the top fifty schools which supply universities, a mere 17 of these 55 fee-paying schools feature - i.e. most of the fee-paying schools cannot even get into that list. If, as you say, fee-paying schools are so substantially better than state schools, it seems odd that even a majority of the above list of "feeder schools" is not fee-paying.

And these are measurements which are designed to suit fee-paying schools. A far more accurate measurement of the success of a school measures how much the students have improved from the day they arrived in the school. There are far greater success stories under this measurement in the state schools.

Rebelheart

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

sagat2 wrote: »

You want to take the 100 million away from private schools then great. Lets make up for it by having the wealthy pay the same amount of tax towards education as the average peasant....That 100 million is easily covered by the extra taxes the people who send their kids to private school pay above those that don't so it's not like Mick the toilet cleaner is personally paying for the private schools.

Keep going ...:rolleyes:

melekalikimaka

Rebelheart wrote: »

And these are measurements which are designed to suit fee-paying schools.

how ya work that one out?

brianthebard

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

The_Minister wrote: »

So either parents pay every penny and the state contributes nothing, or they have to go fully public?

If parents are willing to 'top-up' the funds available for their child's education, why shouldn't they be allowed?

Most (I'm assuming all) parents are expected to 'top up' their children's schools funds because there is usually a shortfall. If the government took the private school subsidy away from them then it could be used to at least partially plug this gap.

melekalikimaka

brianthebard wrote: »

Most (I'm assuming all) parents are expected to 'top up' their children's schools funds because there is usually a shortfall. If the government took the private school subsidy away from them then it could be used to at least partially plug this gap.

and just because the parents of private school students are 'precieved' as being rich, they should foot the full bill?

Did you ever think parents maybe send the children there so the children have better opportunities, better facilities and smaller classes, I know alot of families that struggled to keep kids in private education for this reason. Its terribly ignorant of people thinking its all ok to drop the funding, and the private schools need it more, the government is obliged to pay per head an amount for education, if parents want to top up this amount to ensure the education of their child, so be it

Rebelheart

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

melekalikimaka wrote: »

how ya work that one out?

Because, for starters:

1) they track academic-orientated schools, which is the type of education that all of the fee-paying schools were established to advance.

2) they do no take into account social disadvantage; it's easy to say a child with no financial obstacles who gets into uni is a "success". He/she had a lot of things on his/her side.

3) they do not define success in relative terms: if a pupil enters 1st year from a family which has been marked by generational unemployment and social problems but comes out with his Leaving Cert and acceptance into an IT he has unquestionably been more successful than the son of a barrister who gets into Arts in UCD. "Success", like most things, is relative. These measurements do not measure this.

Rebelheart

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

brianthebard wrote: »

Most (I'm assuming all) parents are expected to 'top up' their children's schools funds because there is usually a shortfall. If the government took the private school subsidy away from them then it could be used to at least partially plug this gap.

Excellent point.

The TUI made the same point very strongly here.

sagat2

Rebelheart wrote: »

Keep going ...:rolleyes:

So you highlighted what you liked/didn't like and ignored the rest?

brianthebard

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

melekalikimaka wrote: »

and just because the parents of private school students are 'precieved' as being rich, they should foot the full bill?

No. Because they are 'perceived' to have chosen to take their children out of the state education system they have abdicated their right to state funded education. Simples no?

Did you ever think parents maybe send the children there so the children have better opportunities, better facilities and smaller classes, I know alot of families that gto keep kids in private education for this reason. Its terriblily ignorant of people thinking its all ok to drop the funding, and the private schools need it more, the government is obliged to pay per head an amount for education, if parents want to top up this amount to ensure the education of their child, so be it

Yeah....You're not going to have much luck convincing me that its ok to have a two tier education system which simultaneously takes money away from the state schools. But good luck with that.

Hank_Jones

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

They certainly shouldn't be giving money to these schools.
The schools obviously don't operate under the power of the state, so I don't see why they should be given funding.
There's a public primary school down my way that is in bit with prefabs that are about 30 years old being used to house about half of classes.
They were in bits when I went there 20 years ago, so I can only imagine what they are like now..

melekalikimaka

brianthebard wrote: »

No. Because they are 'perceived' to have chosen to take their children out of the state education system they have abdicated their right to state funded education. Simples no?

its still state education, merely parent subsidised

brianthebard wrote: »

Yeah....You're not going to have much luck convincing me that its ok to have a two tier education system which simultaneously takes money away from the state schools. But good luck with that.

it does not take money from state school, the law applies to every child, not just public school children, that would be government discrimination to children.

Rebelheart

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

Hank_Jones wrote: »

There's a public primary school down my way that is in bit with prefabs that are about 30 years old being used to house about half of classes.
They were in bits when I went there 20 years ago, so I can only imagine what they are like now..

And this disgusts me most of all as it's repeated across the state. There are thousands upon thousands of Irish pupils in classrooms like this while the government is giving over €100 million to depoliticise the mé féiner parents who send their children to fee-paying schools. Imagine the changes that €100 million would make to state schools. It's truly immoral.

Future generations will look back in shame and disgust at this and wonder why none of us shouted 'Stop!'.

sagat2

brianthebard wrote: »

No. Because they are 'perceived' to have chosen to take their children out of the state education system they have abdicated their right to state funded education. Simples no?

In that case shouldn't those same parents stop subsidising state schools?

Rebelheart

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

melekalikimaka wrote: »

it does not take money from state school, the law applies to every child, not just public school children, that would be government discrimination to children.

It does take money from state schools. If the state were not subsidising non-state schools, that money would have to be invested in state schools. There is no rational reason why this state should be handing over money to support schools which they do not own, but which are instead largely owned by private religious institutions.

landsleaving

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

Rebelheart wrote: »

And this disgusts me most of all as it's repeated across the state. There are thousands upon thousands of Irish pupils in classrooms like this while the government is giving over €100 million to depoliticise the mé féiner parents who send their children to fee-paying schools. Imagine the changes that €100 million would make to state schools. It's truly immoral.

Future generations will look back in shame and disgust at this and wonder why none of us shout!ed 'Stop'.

What's the point when the people you need to listen have their kids in these schools?

brianthebard

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

melekalikimaka wrote: »

its still state education, merely parent subsidised

If you want to play semantics go ahead, but you're the only one convinced that private schools should be considered state education. All schools as I previously mentioned are parent subsidised to a degree, so there is clearly more to the private schools than that.

it does not take money from state school, the law applies to every child, not just public school children, that would be government discrimination to children.

Obviously the money could be spent on actual state schools and thus it is being taken from them. If you want to believe otherwise that's fine.