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The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)

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    #1952
    optogirl
    Registered Users Posts: 2,976 ✭✭✭optogirl


    Monty. wrote: »
    Then why is the Pro Sodomy brigade trying to circumvent a referenda on same sex marriage at all costs ?


    Pro-Sodomy brigade? Holy shi*!

    What business is it of yours what 2 consenting adults do with each other? You haven't been forced to have anal sex just because it's legal have you?


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    #1953
    Monty.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 696 ✭✭✭Monty.


    optogirl wrote: »
    Pro-Sodomy brigade? Holy shi*!

    What business is it of yours what 2 consenting adults do with each other? You haven't been forced to have anal sex just because it's legal have you?

    For the simple reason I object to family life being built around the sin of sodomy in an attempt to normalise sodomy. I won't condone sodomy for anyone. As a resident of this State I have a perfect right to lobby, vote etc. to ensure that human beings are not allowed to raise children in an environment/society based on the sin of sodomy.


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    #1954
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    fedor.2. wrote: »
    None of your business though, is it?.

    Actually it is my business. As a resident of this State I have a perfect right to lobby, vote and do everything in my power to ensure that human beings are not allowed to kill other human beings in this country. It's called democracy.


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    #1955
    optogirl
    Registered Users Posts: 2,976 ✭✭✭optogirl


    Monty. wrote: »
    For the simple reason I object to family life being built around the sin of sodomy in an attempt to normalise sodomy. I won't condone sodomy for anyone.

    In what way is family life being built around sodomy?

    I wouldn't condone bigotry & ignorance but I can't make it illegal.


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    #1956
    optogirl
    Registered Users Posts: 2,976 ✭✭✭optogirl


    snip!


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    #1957
    Monty.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 696 ✭✭✭Monty.


    optogirl wrote: »
    In what way is family life being built around sodomy?

    Same sex marriage and adoption.

    Not to mention the ongoing attempts to lower the age of consent for man-boy sodomy.


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    #1958
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    optogirl wrote: »
    snip!

    If you have a problem with a moderating decision then please address it by PM. If that does not resolve it to your satisfaction then take it to a CatMod, an Admin, or the Dispute Resolution Forum.

    Discussing infractions etc inthread is considered backseat modding.


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    #1959
    optogirl
    Registered Users Posts: 2,976 ✭✭✭optogirl


    Monty. wrote: »
    Same sex marriage and adoption.

    Not to mention the attempt to lower the age of consent for man-boy sodomy.


    So do you contend that a family with one man & one woman as parents is built around heterosexual sex? Why would a gay couple with children be any more explicit with their sex lives than a heterosexual couple?

    The age of consent should be the same for everyone regardless of who you are having sex with.


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    #1960
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    optogirl wrote: »
    Pro-Sodomy brigade? Holy shi*!

    What business is it of yours what 2 consenting adults do with each other? You haven't been forced to have anal sex just because it's legal have you?

    But if two consenting adults want to keep private things private e.g. say they want to keep their mutual confession private then the state should have a law to force them to declare that confession on the basis that the rest of society thinks what they might be doing or speaking about is immoral? But that does principle not apply to gay couples, solicitors or doctors only to clerics?


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    #1961
    gimmebroadband
    Registered Users Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    optogirl wrote: »
    So do you contend that a family with one man & one woman as parents is built around heterosexual sex? Why would a gay couple with children be any more explicit with their sex lives than a heterosexual couple?

    The age of consent should be the same for everyone regardless of who you are having sex with.

    I't not just the sex, they can teach vunerable children that the sin of sodomy is normal, which it 'aint!


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    #1962
    gent9662
    Closed Accounts Posts: 697 ✭✭✭gent9662


    ISAW wrote: »
    But if two consenting adults want to keep private things private e.g. say they want to keep their mutual confession private then the state should have a law to force them to declare that confession on the basis that the rest of society thinks what they might be doing or speaking about is immoral? But that does principle not apply to gay couples, solicitors or doctors only to clerics?

    So you are condoning keeping clerical child abuse a secret between two adults? I.e Priest and Priest?

    That's what it sounds like to me!


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    #1963
    gimmebroadband
    Registered Users Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    dclane wrote: »
    So you are condoning keeping clerical child abuse a secret between two adults? I.e Priest and Priest?

    That's what it sounds like to me!
    Confession is a sacament, and it's between the penitent and God, not penitent and priest!!!


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    #1964
    optogirl
    Registered Users Posts: 2,976 ✭✭✭optogirl


    gimmebroadband wrote: »
    I't not just the sex, they can teach vunerable children that the sin of sodomy is normal, which it 'aint!


    for you.


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    #1965
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    optogirl wrote: »
    So do you contend that a family with one man & one woman as parents is built around heterosexual sex?

    Duh ! Let me guess. Because in case you don't now that's where children come from. Gay couples an not have children of their own. It requires someone of the opposite sex to be involved!
    Why would a gay couple with children be any more explicit with their sex lives than a heterosexual couple?

    Gay couples sex lives don't produce children. Unless it involves going outside the relationship. Then you get problems. Even if it involves only gay people. Like the problem of a lesbian couple getting a gay man to make one of them pregnant and then claiming as a gay couple they have family rights and the father does not have rights to the child.

    http://www.bailii.org/ie/cases/IESC/2009/S81.html
    The age of consent should be the same for everyone regardless of who you are having sex with.

    Ironically it was lower for gays at one time. I wonder if that was related to a Government Minister was caught up in the Phoenix park with a same sex prostitute? I wonder was the age of the boy relevant?


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    #1966
    optogirl
    Registered Users Posts: 2,976 ✭✭✭optogirl


    ISAW wrote: »
    But if two consenting adults want to keep private things private e.g. say they want to keep their mutual confession private then the state should have a law to force them to declare that confession on the basis that the rest of society thinks what they might be doing or speaking about is immoral? But that does principle not apply to gay couples, solicitors or doctors only to clerics?


    Personally I couldn't care less about confession or what goes on in those boxes. It's highly unlikely that a paedophile or murderer would go along to confession to spill his/her guts anyway. But morally, yeah, I think if a priest is party to confession to a crime of the magnitude of rape or murder then he should certainly inform authorities. Not that that guarantees anything being done about it.


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    #1967
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Can we keep on topic please? This is not the thread for people to air their misconceptions about homosexuality and Christianity, or their disapproval of homosexual acts. This thread is to discuss clerical child abuse.


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    #1968
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    dclane wrote: »
    So you are condoning keeping clerical child abuse a secret between two adults? I.e Priest and Priest?

    That's what it sounds like to me!

    Priest and penitent. I'm just pointing to double standards. A standard is applied to the information about the sexual life of gay couples and a different one applied to information about abusive clergy. If you can apply a standard and say "it does not apply to gays" why should it apply to anyone else in principle. Why just what you think it should apply to?

    I think I have already addressed what "the public interest" is. It isn't always necessary to make child abuse public. Particularly if the victim does not want it made public and it may affect the compensation or damages to the victim and if further abuse from the abuser is unlikely or impossible.


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    #1969
    Cybercelesta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 118 ✭✭Cybercelesta


    dclane wrote: »
    So you are condoning keeping clerical child abuse a secret between two adults? I.e Priest and Priest?

    That's what it sounds like to me!

    The Priest acts In Persona Christi in the Sacrament of Confession, so yes I am 100% behind Jesus absolving sinners! I guess the Goverment will have to call Jesus to to stand to testify!


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    #1970
    StudentDad
    Registered Users Posts: 1,494 ✭✭✭StudentDad


    Cybercelesta wrote: »
    dclane wrote: »
    So you are condoning keeping clerical child abuse a secret between two adults? I.e Priest and Priest?

    That's what it sounds like to me!

    The Priest acts In Persona Christi in the Sacrament of Confession, so yes I am 100% behind Jesus absolving sinners! I guess the Goverment will have to call Jesus to to stand to testify!

    The essence of it is that clerics are citizens of the State before they are priests/nuns etc and despite what they may feel their first duty is to the law of the land. If they breach that law through illegal activity it is encumbent on the State to pursue them to the full extent of the law - as private citizens - the fact that they are priests is wholly irrelevant!

    SD


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    #1971
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Cybercelesta wrote: »
    The Priest acts In Persona Christi in the Sacrament of Confession, so yes I am 100% behind Jesus absolving sinners! I guess the Goverment will have to call Jesus to to stand to testify!

    I think, given what Jesus said in the Gospels about what will happen to those who harm children, that Jesus would be a witness for the prosecution rather than the defence.


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    #1972
    Cybercelesta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 118 ✭✭Cybercelesta


    StudentDad wrote: »
    The essence of it is that clerics are citizens of the State before they are priests/nuns etc and despite what they may feel their first duty is to the law of the land. If they breach that law through illegal activity it is encumbent on the State to pursue them to the full extent of the law - as private citizens - the fact that they are priests is wholly irrelevant!

    SD

    The Roman Senate said the same thing in the 1st Century!


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    #1973
    Cybercelesta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 118 ✭✭Cybercelesta


    PDN wrote: »
    I think, given what Jesus said in the Gospels about what will happen to those who harm children, that Jesus would be a witness for the prosecution rather than the defence.
    If the sinner was unrepentant!

    And Jesus would be a witness before His Father in Heaven to say that the penitent asked for forgiveness for the sin, and he forgave them!


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    #1974
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    StudentDad wrote: »
    The essence of it is that clerics are citizens of the State before they are priests/nuns etc and despite what they may feel their first duty is to the law of the land. If they breach that law through illegal activity it is encumbent on the State to pursue them to the full extent of the law - as private citizens - the fact that they are priests is wholly irrelevant!

    SD

    Cue the music - to the tune of Onward christian soldier - and all together now

    Throw them to the liiiiions
    Thrown them to the lions
    And we will replace them
    With our anti christian kind

    Love our Statist history
    Pol Pot Stalin Mao
    Atheist regimes with
    Killing fields to plough"


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    #1975
    StudentDad
    Registered Users Posts: 1,494 ✭✭✭StudentDad


    ISAW wrote: »
    StudentDad wrote: »
    The essence of it is that clerics are citizens of the State before they are priests/nuns etc and despite what they may feel their first duty is to the law of the land. If they breach that law through illegal activity it is encumbent on the State to pursue them to the full extent of the law - as private citizens - the fact that they are priests is wholly irrelevant!

    SD

    Cue the music - to the tune of Onward christian soldier - and all together now

    Throw them to the liiiiions
    Thrown them to the lions
    And we will replace them
    With our anti christian kind

    Love our Statist history
    Pol Pot Stalin Mao
    Atheist regimes with
    Killing fields to plough"

    Rather a democratic state governed by law and reason, than one by unelected self interest and dogma

    SD


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    #1976
    StudentDad
    Registered Users Posts: 1,494 ✭✭✭StudentDad


    Cybercelesta wrote: »
    PDN wrote: »
    I think, given what Jesus said in the Gospels about what will happen to those who harm children, that Jesus would be a witness for the prosecution rather than the defence.
    If the sinner was unrepentant!

    And Jesus would be a witness before His Father in Heaven to say that the penitent asked for forgiveness for the sin, and he forgave them!

    Who said? Were you there? Dogma will not help or comfort the victims of the church

    SD


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    #1977
    gimmebroadband
    Registered Users Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    StudentDad wrote: »
    Who said? Were you there? Dogma will not help or comfort the victims of the church

    SD

    I am a victim of sexual abuse by family member, and a school bully and I forgive them! I even pray for them! 99% of abuse victims were non-clerical! Can you even imagine how many children that is compared to clerical! There were four children involved in my family alone, and I wasn't sorry when the abuser died when I was 12 years old. As I got older I learned to forgive!!!


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    #1978
    StudentDad
    Registered Users Posts: 1,494 ✭✭✭StudentDad


    gimmebroadband wrote: »
    StudentDad wrote: »
    Who said? Were you there? Dogma will not help or comfort the victims of the church

    SD

    I am a victim of sexual abuse by family member, and a school bully and I forgive them! I even pray for them! 99% of abuse victims were non-clerical! Can you even imagine how many children that is compared to clerical! There were four children involved in my family alone, and I wasn't sorry when the abuser died when I was 12 years old. As I got older I learned to forgive!!!

    You're a better Christian than most.

    SD


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    #1979
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Cybercelesta wrote: »
    If the sinner was unrepentant!

    And Jesus would be a witness before His Father in Heaven to say that the penitent asked for forgiveness for the sin, and he forgave them!

    Biblically the word 'repentant' is metanoia - it means to make a 180 degree turnaround, changing one's behaviour. It certainly does not mean that child abusers can say they are sorry and then do the same thing again. Nor, incidentally, does it mean that being forgiven by Christ absolves anyone from making restitution or facing the punishment of the legal system.


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    #1980
    gimmebroadband
    Registered Users Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    PDN wrote: »
    Biblically the word 'repentant' is metanoia - it means to make a 180 degree turnaround, changing one's behaviour. It certainly does not mean that child abusers can say they are sorry and then do the same thing again. Nor, incidentally, does it mean that being forgiven by Christ absolves anyone from making restitution or facing the punishment of the legal system.

    How many people commit sin after they are sorry, Jesus told the Apostles the we must forgive 70 times 7.

    The priest can also absolve sins on condition that if the sinner be truly repentent then he/she must make restitution by reporting the crime and suffer the consequences. If he/she doesn't, then they are not truly repentant, and don't deserve forgiveness!


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    #1981
    StudentDad
    Registered Users Posts: 1,494 ✭✭✭StudentDad


    gimmebroadband wrote: »
    PDN wrote: »
    Biblically the word 'repentant' is metanoia - it means to make a 180 degree turnaround, changing one's behaviour. It certainly does not mean that child abusers can say they are sorry and then do the same thing again. Nor, incidentally, does it mean that being forgiven by Christ absolves anyone from making restitution or facing the punishment of the legal system.

    How many people commit sin after they are sorry, Jesus told the Apostles the we must forgive 70 times 7.

    The priest can also absolve sins on condition that if the sinner be truly repentent then he/she must make restitution by reporting the crime and suffer the consequences. If he/she doesn't, then they are not truly repentant, and don't deserve forgiveness!

    At this point the priest should inform the police that he/she has information regarding a crime. Failure to do so by the priest should leave him/her open to an automatic prosecution on obstruction of justice charges.

    SD


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