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The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)

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12467…131

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    #92
    Outrage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭Outrage


    hinault wrote: »
    Smyth should have been reported/charged/tried.

    Even if the family/abuse victim wanted things to remain private? "reported" to who exactly? What does "tried" mean exactly?


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    #93
    Outrage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭Outrage


    philiporeilly wrote: »
    Wan't even born at the time but websites like this help http://tinyurl.com/ycl9hd2

    As I said earlier he was wrong, his superiors were wrong by not protecting victims of decades of abuse

    I'm afraid that quoting lmgtfy.com in your bibliography will not get you that dissertation/thesis from a reputable institution that you yearn. Anyway, someone more knowledgeable than you has provided you with an answer, so you're saved. That still leaves the other direct question for you to answer.


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    #94
    philiporeilly
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭philiporeilly


    me_right_one wrote: »
    Ah I see, we're talking about two different churches. You must be on about scientology or something, cos my church, the Roman Catholic Church as its known, the direct church Jesus set up in 0000 never beat year-based ideals into anyone, and they certainly aren't continuing to cover up any past wrongs some paedophiles-disguised-as-priests committed. Note I used the word continuing, the same word you used. I for one cant turn on the tele without apologies and resignations and inquires filling my sitting room. You're on a loser there with that scientology.

    Anyone from my parents / grandparents generation will testify to being in fear of irish religious orders such as the Christian Brothers / Sister of Mercy Beating those very ideals into people.

    me_right_one wrote: »
    100% correct. Its a far less wrong than actually abusing someone, but a wrong nonetheless. It definately warrants an apology.

    Many abuse victims have publicly stated that those inactions and coverup have been far more damaging to them.

    He may not have been in power then but he did nothing to stop smyth over the following years he rose through the ranks.


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    #95
    WesternNight
    Registered Users Posts: 9,286 ✭✭✭WesternNight


    Outrage wrote: »
    I'm afraid that quoting lmgtfy.com in your bibliography will not get you that dissertation/thesis from a reputable institution that you yearn. Anyway, someone more knowledgeable than you has provided you with an answer, so you're saved.

    What exactly is your problem? You seem to have some kind of beef with people in this thread and you seem unwilling to be an adult about it instead resorting to snide comments. Why?


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    #96
    me_right_one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭me_right_one


    philiporeilly wrote: »
    I doubt the hundreds of abuse victims would see it as irrelevant that someone who rose through the ranks of the church did nothing to report this over those years.

    I dont. What has the job one does have to do with anything, or the "rank" you hold in that given job? And he did report it, directly to the person dealing with the matter. Its THAT person who should have gone to the guards.


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    #97
    Outrage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭Outrage


    hinault wrote: »
    In fact, it would appear that the IRCC at various levels attempted to subvert the testimony of the people making the allegations of abuse.

    :lol:


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    #98
    Outrage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭Outrage


    WesternNight wrote: »
    What exactly is your problem? You seem to have some kind of beef with people in this thread and you seem unwilling to be an adult about it instead resorting to snide comments. Why?

    Let's get back on topic: the good Cardinal won't be resigning. Get over it.

    He had a cathedral full of supporters today (despite what you read about in the liberal press).


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    #99
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,664 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    philiporeilly wrote: »
    Anyone from my parents / grandparents generation will testify to being in fear of irish religious orders such as the Christian Brothers / Sister of Mercy Beating those very ideals into people.

    I'd argue that each family's generational experience differs. My own had a positive interaction with the Church, and had always spoke with admiration of that body.


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    #100
    allthedoyles
    Registered Users Posts: 6,893 ✭✭✭allthedoyles


    philiporeilly wrote: »
    Anyone from my parents / grandparents generation will testify to being in fear of irish religious orders such as the Christian Brothers / Sister of Mercy Beating those very ideals into people.
    .

    Agreed from first hand experience of the Christian Brothers


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    #101
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Outrage, if this was a member of your family - your child for example - would you be satisfied with the way things were handled?


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    #102
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Outrage wrote: »
    Even if the family/abuse victim wanted things to remain private? "reported" to who exactly? What does "tried" mean exactly?

    Which abuse victims wanted their abuse to "remain private"?
    And can you tell us which abuse vicitims did not want justice?


    Tried : means being tried in the courts of law of this land for crimes committed.


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    #103
    Outrage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭Outrage


    philiporeilly wrote: »

    He may not have been in power then but he did nothing to stop smyth over the following years he rose through the ranks.

    What rank did Smyth achieve after it came to light that he was fiddling with children? I have no doubt that he was ordered to Craggy Island with an oath of silence. But he was a defiant, disobedient ****er and carried on with his perversions despite countless warnings.


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    #104
    rovert
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,089 ✭✭✭✭rovert


    Dont feed the troll


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    #105
    Outrage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭Outrage


    hinault wrote: »
    Which abuse victims wanted their abuse to "remain private"?
    And can you tell us which abuse vicitims did not want justice?
    I was making the point that we don't know how the victims wished their plight to be treated.

    Cardinal Brady has committed no crime and is entitled to his good name until he is charged and convicted in a a court of law. His impeccable career is testimoney to his unerring character.


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    #106
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Outrage wrote: »
    What rank did Smyth achieve after it came to light that he was fiddling with children? I have no doubt that he was ordered to Craggy Island with an oath of silence. But he was a defiant, disobedient ****er and carried on with his perversions despite countless warnings.

    Cop out.

    Smyth was transferred by the RCC to other parishes/locations, whenever claims of abuse were made against Smyth to the RCC authorities.

    It would appear that the RCC did their best to subvert the testimonies of the abuse victims by transferring accused clergy.


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    #107
    me_right_one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭me_right_one


    philiporeilly wrote: »
    Anyone from my parents / grandparents generation will testify to being in fear of irish religious orders such as the Christian Brothers / Sister of Mercy Beating those very ideals into people.

    Are you serious? Your granny was beaten up by a nun for not conforming to flower power and free-love?

    philiporeilly wrote: »
    Many abuse victims have publicly stated that those inactions and coverup have been far more damaging to them.

    That may well be true, but in the case of Sean Brady, he didnt cover anything up. He did however do an "inaction", and has since apologised. Case closed.


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    #108
    Outrage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭Outrage


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Outrage, if this was a member of your family - your child for example - would you be satisfied with the way things were handled?

    I live in the suburbs of Dublin in 2010 in a society where the phenomenon of child rape is known about. Yes, I'd go straight to the police if a family member were abused (comforted by the fact that the courts would facilitate anonymity if necessary). I honestly don't know what I'd do if I lived in 1960 in a small town in Ireland where gossip was rife, even pornography was unheard of, and everyone knew everyone else (including the local Garda).


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    #109
    Ultravid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 436 ✭✭Ultravid


    philiporeilly wrote: »
    Where is the line drawn?

    Should priests that abuse/rape children be listened to as long as they teach the faith? Are they worthy of being listened to?
    Any priest who harms a child or young person (or anyone else, especially sexually) should be subject to severe punishment and be sent to spend his days in penance in a spartan monastery. I believe this was the case before Vatican II. Before humanistic psychology ran riot through the Church.


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    #110
    Outrage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭Outrage


    hinault wrote: »
    Cop out.

    Smyth was transferred by the RCC to other parishes/locations, whenever claims of abuse were made against Smyth to the RCC authorities.

    It would appear that the RCC did their best to subvert the testimonies of the abuse victims by transferring accused clergy.

    Brendan Smyth was a serial paedophile who accounted for a huge proportion of the abuse. He should have been sent to an enclosed monastery where speaking was not allowed (as he probably was). I can speculate that not only was he a pervert, but he was also a defiant, disobedient ****er who took orders from nobody until he was dragged away in chains by the civil authorities. I fear he is currently burning in hell. I can only hope that he begged for God's forgiveness while in prison.


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    #111
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    I've got to put my cards on the table here.

    One particular priest named in the Ryan Commission report was in my old parish in Dublin.

    As kids growing up there were always rumours about the behaviour of the priest but the rumours were left at that - rumours.

    Reading the Ryan report published last May, it was now clear that what was presumed back then (in the late 1970's/early 1980's) had foundation.

    Based on my own childhood and the rumours circulating, I find it very difficult to accept that grown adults did not know about the behaviour of similar clergy in their parishes.

    I was only 10/11 at the time - and let me tell you we were a lot more innocent than 10/11 year olds today - but even we sensed that there was something irregular about that priest's behaviour.


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    #112
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Outrage wrote: »
    Brendan Smyth was a serial paedophile who accounted for a huge proportion of the abuse. He should have been sent to an enclosed monastery where speaking was not allowed. I fear he is currently burning in hell. I can only hope that he begged for God's forgiveness while in prison.


    He should have been reported to the civil authorities, by the RCC authorities, when the first allegations of his abuse were made in the late 1950's.

    Instead, when allegations were made against Smyth to the RCC authorities, he was willfully and deliberately transferred, by the RCC authorities to other locations.
    That's what happened in his case and many other cases, Outrage.


    Every single alleged abuse case should have been reported by the RCC authorities to the civil authorities.


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    #113
    Outrage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭Outrage


    hinault wrote: »
    He should have been reported to the civil authorities, by the RCC authorities, when the first allegations of his abuse were made in the late 1950's.

    Instead, when allegations were made against Smyth to the RCC authorities, he was willfully and deliberately transferred, by the RCC authorities to other locations.
    That's what happened in his case and many other cases, Outrage.


    Every single alleged abuse case should have been reported by the RCC authorities to the civil authorities.

    Even if the family/abuse victim didn't wish the local Garda to know?


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    #114
    FoxT
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,204 ✭✭✭FoxT


    Brady, like many others, appears to be a decent person who got caught up in the nuances of canon law, the culture of the environment where he worked, and , perhaps, he over-trusted his superiors to do the right thing.

    I am horrified that children who were raped were pressurised into signing an oath of silence. I abhor Brady's apparent complicity in this. I am sure that there are many others still in the church today who are far more culpable then he - but nevertheless it appears from the media reports that his actions, while in keeping with canon law etc., were completely in opposition to the Christian Message. I believe that the most positive Christian action that Brady could take today would be to resign of his own volition. A forced resignation would be of no value.

    Interestingly, I have not seen any mention in the media of the roles played by the parents of the children involved. Why did they not go to the gardai & initiate a criminal case? Or, did they in fact attempt to do so? My point - there seems to have been many failings here by people who could have escalated the issue at the time & did not.

    Brady should resign - not because he is the most culpable individual - but in order to send a signal to others that the Church is serious about reform. His resignation is, I believe a necessary (but not sufficient) condition for the Church to start regaining its moral position.

    What about the children's parents though? Should they resign too? Resign from what? If they did nothing then they too must be guilty of failing to meet their responsibilities. Why has the media not mentioned them?
    - FoxT


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    #115
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Outrage wrote: »
    I was making the point that we don't know how the victims wished their plight to be treated.

    Cop out.

    We do know that a large number of victims wanted to their allegations followed up by the RCC and we know that they wished to have their
    cases made public.
    We know that for a fact.




    Outrage wrote: »

    Cardinal Brady has committed no crime and is entitled to his good name until he is charged and convicted in a a court of law. His impeccable career is testimoney to his unerring character.


    No one accused Brady of a crime.

    The accusation against Brady is that he failed to make the correct decision in 1975.
    His decision making - his ability to make the right decision - is what is being called in to question.

    He has been shown to have made the wrong decision then - how do we know that he is capable of making the correct decision now?


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    #116
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Outrage wrote: »
    Even if the family/abuse victim didn't wish the local Garda to know?

    Yes.

    The law is the law.


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    #117
    Outrage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭Outrage


    hinault wrote: »
    Yes.

    The law is the law.

    I'm so glad you are so sure of yourself with your 20/20 hindsight. I'm also so glad that you have access to the full facts and can pass anonymous judgement on holy men with impeccable characters from the comfort of your keyboard.


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    #118
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Outrage wrote: »
    I'm so glad you are so sure of yourself with your 20/20 hindsight.

    A crime is a crime, Outrage.


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    #119
    Outrage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭Outrage


    hinault wrote: »
    No one accused Brady of a crime.

    Good. Because you'll have a job on your hands trying to nail Cardinal Brady to a cross.


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    #120
    Outrage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭Outrage


    hinault wrote: »
    A crime is a crime, Outrage.

    What is the crime that the then Father Brady "allegedly" committed please? Please quote the law you refer to.


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    #121
    Ultravid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 436 ✭✭Ultravid


    Free preview (you can read a good bit of it!) here:

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=QMWyVp-OAYUC&printsec=frontcover&dq=goodbye+good+men&source=bl&ots=4N-UsPe2nP&sig=H_aZJcul3oKYO4f57z28NAiWexI&hl=en&ei=dH-hS-qeEZHu0gSti8GjDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false

    Or buy it here:
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Goodbye-Good-Men-Liberals-Corruption/dp/0895261448

    I repeat this recommendation for anyone who missed it earlier. If you want to understand how this abuse could have happened, check it out.


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