The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)

Michael G

Has anyone noticed that Irish Catholics are still going to Mass and the Holy Week services in hundreds of thosands? Apart from those within the Church who have their own agenda, which is to breathe life into the maggot-ridden corpse of the "Spirit of Vatican II", the only people making hay out of this are the ones who would like to destroy the Church as an influence on "social policy", which seems to be all about sex. Nowadays, the criminal law allows people to go in for almost any kind of sex. What the ones who now make all the noise seem to want to prohibit is any expression of disapproval of any kind of sexual activity, however strange. I would be interested to see why they still think it is wrong to have sex with children.

PDN

Michael G wrote: »

Has anyone noticed that Irish Catholics are still going to Mass and the Holy Week services in hundreds of thosands? Apart from those within the Church who have their own agenda, which is to breathe life into the maggot-ridden corpse of the "Spirit of Vatican II", the only people making hay out of this are the ones who would like to destroy the Church as an influence on "social policy", which seems to be all about sex. Nowadays, the criminal law allows people to go in for almost any kind of sex. What the ones who now make all the noise seem to want to prohibit is any expression of disapproval of any kind of sexual activity, however strange. I would be interested to see why they still think it is wrong to have sex with children.

Well, to be be fair, most people are still opposed to rape as well. Which would indicate that consent is the crucial issue.

Criminal law has no business legislating what consenting adults get up to in private.

philiporeilly

Michael G wrote: »

Has anyone noticed that Irish Catholics are still going to Mass and the Holy Week services in hundreds of thosands? Apart from those within the Church who have their own agenda, which is to breathe life into the maggot-ridden corpse of the "Spirit of Vatican II", the only people making hay out of this are the ones who would like to destroy the Church as an influence on "social policy", which seems to be all about sex. Nowadays, the criminal law allows people to go in for almost any kind of sex. What the ones who now make all the noise seem to want to prohibit is any expression of disapproval of any kind of sexual activity, however strange. I would be interested to see why they still think it is wrong to have sex with children.

Its great that so many people are still going to mass but please do not associate that to every single one of them having the exact same view point as you.

Not everything is black and white as some are making out. Yes you can criticise the failings of the hierarchy of the church without being "anti catholic". You can also attend mass and consider yourself a catholic.

I drove my grandmother to mass tonight and I have to say that listening afterwards to some of the older generation I was surprise to see so many that are still upset with how the church is handling this.

The media have a place in our society to investigate and report on matters of interest to the public, even if it is uncomfortable for some to hear.

I disagree with you that those making noise "want to prohibit is any expression of disapproval of any kind of sexual activity". In fact I say that it is generally the opposite. They want everyone to have equal rights and openly express their views no matter what race, creed or sexual orientation they are.

You may be disagree with their views or how they live their lives but legally (and rightfully) everyone has right to live without discrimination.

rovert

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7086738.ece

PapaRatzinger

Depends on what media you read.

The days of the Sindo/Times having total control over the Zeitgeist are numbered.

Catholics should boycott the Sunday Independent imo. I'd be clicking my heels with glee and lodge €1,000 in my local parish account if a bishop called for its boycott. I think the Irish Times has a good overall Christian ethos and you get good articles on both sides of the coin. Although there are a lot of journos who went to college during the height of the feminist era, have weaseled themselves into tenured positions and have been pumping out the same ****e since the 1990s. Unlike the change being undergone by the Catholic Church with regards to protecting children, they're never going to change. They've got their little champagne liberal principles to uphold.

Fighting Irish

What i hate, is when the media calls them "abuse survivors"

Hagar

PapaRatzinger wrote: »

Unlike the change being undergone by the Catholic Church with regards to protecting children

What change? And why was it needed?

rovert

Im fairly specfical of PapaRatzinger as a poster....

Fighting Irish wrote: »

What i hate, is when the media calls them "abuse survivors"

Ok

PapaRatzinger

69 wrote: »

What change? And why was it needed?

You've obviously been asleep for the last decade. Every catholic parish in this country has a child protection policy. For example, no volunteer (scout leader, choirmaster, etc.) from the parish can access a child under any circumstances without comprehensive Garda vetting. Also, Cardinal Ratzinger, when he was in charge, fast-tracked the proceedure for outing paedophile priests where it was quite clear that abuse had taken place. Previously, a full ecclesiastic tribunal was required. Etc., etc. I suggest you open you mind to other media sources. Vatican.va or the Vatican's youtube channel would be a good start for closed-minded people like you.

bigeasyeah

davef1000 wrote: »

I'm also sick of hearing about an organisation that covered up hundreds of cases of sexual abuse of children, and protected the abusers from punishment at the hands of the law.

The swimming council?

rovert

PapaRatzinger wrote: »

You've obviously been asleep for the last decade. Every catholic parish in this country has a child protection policy. For example, no volunteer (scout leader, choirmaster, etc.) from the parish can access a child under any circumstances without comprehensive Garda vetting. Also, Cardinal Ratzinger, when he was in charge, fast-tracked the proceedure for outing paedophile priests where it was quite clear that abuse had taken place. Previously, a full ecclesiastic tribunal was required. Etc., etc. I suggest you open you mind to other media sources. Vatican.va or the Vatican's youtube channel would be a good start for closed-minded people like you.

This has to be a gimmick account right? Just look at the username and joining date.

Boston

PapaRatzinger wrote: »

You've obviously been asleep for the last decade. Every catholic parish in this country has a child protection policy. For example, no volunteer (scout leader, choirmaster, etc.) from the parish can access a child under any circumstances without comprehensive Garda vetting. Also, Cardinal Ratzinger, when he was in charge, fast-tracked the proceedure for outing paedophile priests where it was quite clear that abuse had taken place. Previously, a full ecclesiastic tribunal was required. Etc., etc. I suggest you open you mind to other media sources. Vatican.va or the Vatican's youtube channel would be a good start for closed-minded people like you.

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but isn't the church in Ireland run today by the same people who covered up child sex abuse 30 years ago? And what exactly brought about these changes in the church you speak of? Was it moral men who could stand no more, or the outrage of catholics when they first heard the truth? A truth which the church suppressed for years and now wishes to water down. You accuse other of being narrow minded, when it is you who is blind.

Jaysoose

musings wrote: »

Who gives who over to the Gardai? It not as if they have to be extradited or something. I mean if someone has been abused by someone, then that person complains to the Gardai themselves or someone does it for them and the law deals with them accordingly be they builder, doctor, teacher or priest.

Yes, in the past the Church knew of abusers and didn't act in a responsible way in tipping off the gardai, however they have apologised for it, resolved never to do it again, some bishops have resigned over it and there is no evidence to suggest that they are covering up anything today.

what more can they do?

They can look at themselves as human beings and as such be held accountable the same way as the rest of us. If at any stage anybody was aware of abuse and didnt act on it they should hand themsleves over to the authorities i cant see any other way to approach the issue and all the promise of reforms and hollow apologies is a disgusting sideshow.

billybigunz

Anybody who supports the church is a paedophile enabler and apologist. If you believe in hell then that is your destiny.

davef1000

bigeasyeah wrote: »

The swimming council?

People were removed from their positions, tried in court, and sentenced. Just like in the CCL, right?

Hagar

PapaRatzinger wrote: »

You've obviously been asleep for the last decade. Every catholic parish in this country has a child protection policy. For example, no volunteer (scout leader, choirmaster, etc.) from the parish can access a child under any circumstances without comprehensive Garda vetting. Also, Cardinal Ratzinger, when he was in charge, fast-tracked the proceedure for outing paedophile priests where it was quite clear that abuse had taken place. Previously, a full ecclesiastic tribunal was required. Etc., etc. I suggest you open you mind to other media sources. Vatican.va or the Vatican's youtube channel would be a good start for closed-minded people like you.

I'm not closed minded at all, I just don't swallow the pap being dished out by the RCC as the truth. You completely avoided why the changes were needed. You say that every parish has a child protection policy. Theses policies were only brought in to combat the systematic abuse at the hands of the clergy. Your ecclesiastical tribunals don't mean anything outside your church grounds, until child abusers are put into State prisons justice has not been done.

PapaRatzinger

Boston wrote: »

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but isn't the church in Ireland run today by the same people who covered up child sex abuse 30 years ago? And what exactly brought about these changes in the church you speak of? Was it moral men who could stand no more, or the outrage of catholics when they first heard the truth? A truth which the church suppressed for years and now wishes to water down. You accuse other of being narrow minded, when it is you who is blind.

Lol. You're probably the very type of person who is calling for Cardinal Brady's "resignation". Were that to happen (and it won't), his shoes would be replaced by someone who graduated from the same seminary 5 years later.

What you really want is for the Church to be taken over by a bunch of aggressive secularists. That is never going to happen.

rovert

PapaRatzinger wrote: »

Lol. You're probably the very type of person who is calling for Cardinal Brady's "resignation". Were that to happen (and it won't), his shoes would be replaced by someone who graduated from the same seminary 5 years later.

What you really want is for the Church to be taken over by a bunch of aggressive secularists. That is never going to happen.

For a Christian and new poster you are quite antagonistic...

PapaRatzinger

davef1000 wrote: »

People were removed from their positions, tried in court, and sentenced. Just like in the CCL, right?

Instead of engaging in endless gossip all the time, could you please be more specific in your allegations? Please cite the relevant laws and the specific individuals you'd like to see in front of the courts.

PapaRatzinger

rovert wrote: »

For a Christian and new poster you are quite antagonistic...

Christians have been known to attack as well as defend. The truth will cut through all the gossip and offer renewal and healing.

Hagar

PapaRatzinger wrote: »

could you please be more specific in your allegations? Please cite the relevant laws and the specific individuals you'd like to see in front of the courts.

1. Obstructing justice.
2. Every single one of them.

rovert

PapaRatzinger wrote: »

Christians have been known to attack as well as defend. The truth will cut through all the gossip and offer renewal and healing.

Betcha you say that to all the boys Papa :rolleyes:

PapaRatzinger

69 wrote: »

1. Obstructing justice.
2. Every single one of them.

What law do you refer to?

Funny that you talk about "every single one". Do you think good priests should be thrown in the slammer too? You come across as an out and out church-hating extremist.

A nasty little gossiper, aren't you?

PDN

PapaRatzinger & rovert, this thread will run a lot smoother if you both take a deep breath and don't get so personal.

Thanks.

Hagar

The trouble is that everybody is aware that the so called "good" priests knew what was going on but didn't speak out. They saw their loyalty to the Church as more important than their duty to the children. If only one of them had the courage to do so a lot of human misery could be avoided. Many of the good priests are guilty of conspiracy by silence.

peccavi

This is a very interesting piece which addresses the above named instruction from the Vatican which the MSM calls the smoking gun...

An excerpt:

One of the Big Lies left over from the Long Lent of 2002 in the U.S. is that clerical sexual abuse and episcopal malfeasance and misgovernance were abetted by a 1962 Vatican document, Crimen sollicitationis (“The Crime of Soliciting”). That document, and a 2001 letter from then-cardinal Ratzinger to all the bishops of the world on specific abuse cases, have been cited for years as the smoking gun proving that the Vatican is engaged in an international conspiracy to protect child molesters (and its own reputation and exchequer). Ms. O’Connor, wittingly or not, bought this Big Lie in her Washington Post article. Explaining why it’s a Big Lie requires a understanding how the Catholic Church understands the sacraments, including the Sacrament of Penance, often called “confession.”

Go read the whole thing: http://article.nationalreview.com/429663/spreading-the-big-lie/george-weigel-br-rev-jay-scott-newman

Jonny7

I think a large proportion of the anger (and my anger specifically) over this issue is the way in which the RCC are treating it.

This isn't a Mel Gibson film which creates an absolute furorer inside the church, its something far far worse, child abuse... yet from the very first rumors, to the Priests actually being named, to the massive media outcry, the RCC has treated the issue the same the whole way - shrug and brush under the carpet as if its just a minor thing.

Its as if the whole institution is a gentleman's club who's had a few members behave in an ungentlemanly manner and nothing to get in a fuss about. Try not to get caught, and if you do, for the fifth time, just plead the usual tack "the devil made me do it" and the you'll get is a free transfer or at worst a light "defrocking".

I'm not saying the Church is full to the brim of paedophiles but how they can be so nonchalant about such evil within their institution speaks volumes of their mindset.

/rant over

goat2

lucy2010 wrote: »

I feel that anyone who was in anyway involved either by practice or knowledge needs to go but also needs to face a criminal investigation. & if that means every priest in the nation so be it.

they are still not doing a thing, cant beleive it

Raiser

Cardinal Angelo Sodano dismisses Child Abuse as "Petty Gossip"

Cardinal Angelo Sodano wrote:

A LEADING cardinal yesterday sparked outrage among victims' groups by dismissing the clerical sex abuse scandal as "the petty gossip of the moment".

Cardinal Angelo Sodano delivered the shocking speech at the start of the papal Easter Sunday Mass in the Vatican.

The cardinal strongly defended Pope Benedict, saying that the church would not be intimidated by "petty gossip" about sexual abuse of children by priests before he warmly embraced the Pontiff.

Please do not simply move this thread to the massive catch-all that is the "Mega Thread" where it will simply be lost forever - This is a new and very real development in the whole topic that is unfolding around us that I believe deserves its own discussion.

I've noticed recently that there has been a worrying trend of all but dismissing the ongoing Child Abuse issue almost entirely by belittling it, playing it down, marginalising it, hinting that its has been blown out of proportion and otherwise skewing the facts. However the above incident really does illustrate for me in a very telling manner how this attitude now can demonstrably be shown to reach from our local Parish Church right the whole way up the hierarchy to the Popes own inner circle of Supporters.

Is it acceptable for no changes to be made on the basis of what it has become commonplace to inaccurately and conveniently describe in an idle, throwaway manner as "the misdeeds of a few Priests and Nuns"?

This argument is never then accompanied by acknowledgement of the many instances where the People behind the mechanisms of the Church covered up these "Sins" and crimes, which in the majority of cases enabled the violating Party to continue with their sick and evil cravings at will.

rovert

I thought this was just a meme of PapaRatzinger