The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)

marienbad

Morbert wrote: »

Eminience grise?

What ever expression you like Morbert - but there can be no doubt that since its foundation this was a catholic state for a catholic people just as its sister up north was for a protestant people .

It is curious that we have no problem believing it of NI but always argue the toss when it come to the ROI .

Morbert

marienbad wrote: »

What ever expression you like Morbert - but there can be no doubt that since its foundation this was a catholic state for a catholic people just as its sister up north was for a protestant people .

It is curious that we have no problem believing it of NI but always argue the toss when it come to the ROI .

What I'm disputing is the notion that these women were being stolen from their families by the Catholic church/state, forced to live out their life in camps.

It was the families excommunicating women to camps who "brought shame" on them.

This is probably one of the most important scenes in the film "The Magdalene Sisters"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqoSB5e0R5o&t=6m30s

marienbad

Morbert wrote: »

It was the families excommunicating women who "brought shame" on them.

And where did those fathers get the strength and the ability to crush any parental feeling within themselves to carry out such actions ? And the approval within society for doing so ?

How is it any different from honour killings etc we see today ?

Morbert

marienbad wrote: »

And where did those fathers get the strength and the ability to crush any parental feeling within themselves to carry out such actions ? And the approval within society for doing so ?

Irish culture of hatred of women.

How is it any different from honour killings etc we see today ?

Honor killings are a similar phenomenon, born from a similar hatred of women. The primary difference is Irish people employed the Catholic church and the state when disposing of women.

Morbert

P.S. My intention is not to absolve the Catholic church of any wrongdoing. They were absolutely evil in their facilitation of these atrocities.

My intention is to argue that the evil didn't stop at the Catholic church. All of Irish society was steeped in this barbarism.

4068ac1elhodqr

So could there actually be an element of 'satanic child sacrifice' within all of this 'evil doing'.
Nothing's surprising these days, in relation to all of this sort of thing.

Kiwi in IE

Morbert wrote: »

P.S. My intention is not to absolve the Catholic church of any wrongdoing. They were absolutely evil in their facilitation of these atrocities.

My intention is to argue that the evil didn't stop at the Catholic church. All of Irish society was steeped in this barbarism.

Was this because all of Irish society was brainwashed and indoctrinated into Catholicism? Judging by the level at which it remains so in 2017, I am pretty confident that this was certainly the case in the mid decades of last century.

Seth Brundle

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Was this because all of Irish society was brainwashed and indoctrinated into Catholicism? Judging by the level at which it remains so in 2017, I am pretty confident that this was certainly the case in the mid decades of last century.

My view is that is is down to both blind obedience with the church tied with ultra conservatism that continued from the middle ages (due in a large way to the church)

aloyisious

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Was this because all of Irish society was brainwashed and indoctrinated into Catholicism? Judging by the level at which it remains so in 2017, I am pretty confident that this was certainly the case in the mid decades of last century.

IMO, I'd have to say that YES, majorly we were into almost blind obedience. Most of the voters and adults (young and old) saw things as black and white (no pun intended) when it came to religious matters, due to the religious instruction in churches and moral/civic lessons in schools. Just look at the turnout of the republic's population for John Paul in '79 and..... deleted.

The church was invested with power outside its temporal role by the state as the politicians were (for the most part) under the sway of the church. No one (for the most part) doubted the word of the clergy or spoke of doing so publicly.

marienbad

Morbert wrote: »

P.S. My intention is not to absolve the Catholic church of any wrongdoing. They were absolutely evil in their facilitation of these atrocities.

My intention is to argue that the evil didn't stop at the Catholic church. All of Irish society was steeped in this barbarism.

I fully accept that Morbert , but that society was formed ,educated ,monitored by the RCC . And what do the Jesuits say - ''give me the child for the first seven years and I'll give you the man''

It seems only the power of Nationalism was capable of resisting and of course when their aims were achieved we had the perfect marriage

Absolam

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Was this because all of Irish society was brainwashed and indoctrinated into Catholicism? Judging by the level at which it remains so in 2017, I am pretty confident that this was certainly the case in the mid decades of last century.

A large proportion of society certainly held Catholic views, for sure. Brainwashed and indoctrinated, I think not so much; then as now there were those brought up in the Catholic faith who rejected it either partially or wholly. Certainly the birth of the nation itself is evidence of the proportion of the population prepared to go against the Church when it sided with the British Empire against Republicanism, but I think it's fair to say that the Irish, like the English, the Italians, Germans, Spanish, Danes, Americans, etc etc held moral views very much informed by religion and history. There were burning true believers and flickering indifferent apostates, like there are in societies around the world today. There's no obviating the fact that Irish society, with the approval of both our spiritual and political leaders, was complicit in the maltreatment of the most vulnerable members of that society, and that they had a fundamentally different perspective on their actions than the one we now bring to bear is also true. Using the Church as a whipping boy isn't going to be a productive exercise; but holding those people who were responsible for atrocities to account may make a better society of us for the future.

hinault

Morbert wrote: »

The Catholic church provided the logistics and capability for committing horrible cruelty like this. But Irish society provided the will.

I often see this tragedy framed as an evil clerical organisation committing cruelty against women and kids. In reality, society wielded an evil clerical organisation to commit cruelty against women and kids.

Wider society played it's part for sure.

Illegitimacy, as it was called, was regarded as a problem.
It is a problem.

How the problem was addressed was not correct.

The state played it's part by not preventing the concealment of the identity of the "illegitimate" of the child's father on the birth certificate.
It takes two to create a child and the state, by not requiring the father of the child to be publicly identified on every birth certificate, played a crucial role.

The "father" was then not obliged to maintain the woman he impregnated or the child she conceived. What could the mother do? She could not work. She was destitute in many cases so she went to where the State sent her.

smacl

Morbert wrote: »

The Catholic church provided the logistics and capability for committing horrible cruelty like this. But Irish society provided the will.

I often see this tragedy framed as an evil clerical organisation committing cruelty against women and kids. In reality, society wielded an evil clerical organisation to commit cruelty against women and kids.

The church also provided the morality where sex outside of marriage was sinful leading to single mothers being shunned from society rather than helped and kept integral to it. Of course broader Irish society was not (and still is not) blameless, but the fact that the archaic and often barbaric standards of morality are informed by the church is the sole responsibility of the church.

Absolam

Hardly a moral position exclusive to societies where Christianity is the predominant moral authority though, so I think it's fair to say those attitudes have just as much to do with societies as they do religions.

fran17

aloyisious wrote: »

IMO, I'd have to say that YES, majorly we were into almost blind obedience. Most of the voters and adults (young and old) saw things as black and white (no pun intended) when it came to religious matters, due to the religious instruction in churches and moral/civic lessons in schools. Just look at the turnout of the republic's population for John Paul in '79 and the vote for the 8th amendment in '83.

The church was invested with power outside its temporal role by the state as the politicians were (for the most part) under the sway of the church. No one (for the most part) doubted the word of the clergy or spoke of doing so publicly.

I don't feel that this is the appropriate topic in regard to your personal crusade to repeal the 8th amendment aloyisious.There are large sections of Irish society that are both non religious and pro life.To be honest you attempt to intertwine both is beneath you imo.

Absolam

aloyisious wrote: »

The church was invested with power outside its temporal role by the state as the politicians were (for the most part) under the sway of the church. No one (for the most part) doubted the word of the clergy or spoke of doing so publicly.

I'd say the Churches are invested with power in just the same way as the State is; an act of will by the people.

Cabaal

Can't help but be saddened by the sheer lack of outraged Catholics in this forum, the church failed you and it seems you can't even express that you are upset by this.

Its this type of lack of response from the church overall (meaningful action) that makes people look at the church and think they don't care...and you wounder why people calling themselves Catholics and mass numbers are dropping.

Absolam

Maybe some people just don't feel the need to parade their outrage for the approval of others?

fran17

aloyisious wrote: »

Actually I wasn't promoting any personal crusade, just highlighting the devotion paid to the church by its membership, and the state, circa the era written of by the original poster and what it taught the members. For instance, I recall the time while I was in the FCA turning out in full uniform under arms for a formal guard of honour duty with my unit (under defence forces auspices) at the procession of the host through the streets of Blackrock, Co Dublin, to the local Parish church in the late 60's. But that's a blast from the past.....

Hmmm I suppose one could say it's coincidental that your good self happened to introduce the 8th amendment into the conversation but would it be plausible?

smacl

fran17 wrote: »

There are large sections of Irish society that are both non religious and pro life

Any references to back that up Fran? Maybe you could give us some figures as to what percentage of Irish pro life supporters are non-religious and let us know the source of your information.

marienbad

Absolam wrote: »

Maybe some people just don't feel the need to parade their outrage for the approval of others?

Indeed but it would be nice to see some sense of disapproval without a load of whataboutery attached .

Mr.Wemmick

marienbad wrote: »

Indeed but it would be nice to see some sense of disapproval without a load of whataboutery attached .

Agreed. There is almost a suggestion that we should have varied measurements of disapproval, as if we are dealing with a slight unpleasant happening.

The fact there isn't a united front of dismay and calls for criminal proceedings speaks volumes. The problems and the thinking that made this happen in the first place are alive and well in 2017.

Justifiable/ necessary horror, or fake news. Take your pick, all amounts to the same thing in the end.

lazybones32

Cabaal wrote: »

Can't help but be saddened by the sheer lack of outraged Catholics in this forum, the church failed you and it seems you can't even express that you are upset by this.

Its this type of lack of response from the church overall (meaningful action) that makes people look at the church and think they don't care...and you wounder why people calling themselves Catholics and mass numbers are dropping.

And what good will being outraged achieve? Will it bring the babies back to life?

The Church has never failed me. The Bons Secours Sisters are accused of failing those children but until the Commission delivers its findings, there is no point or sense in getting upset about something I am powerless to change. If there is no clear evidence of the children being murdered or serious wrongdoing, then I don't think it will upset me. Though I do wonder how 7 children could have their cause of death listed as malnutrition: that's not something that kills overnight. But as I wrote, I'll wait for the final report.

Cabaal

lazybones32 wrote: »

And what good will being outraged achieve? Will it bring the babies back to life?

The Church has never failed me.

I think you'll find it has,
The Vatican failed you and every other Catholic when it knowingly covered up the abuse of children by members of the clergy. The guidelines included silencing victims and moving the priests.

If you don't see this as a failure then you should honestly take a good long hard look at yourself and what you see as right and wrong.
The church failed you when it refused to release records to Ireland, The UN and Australia so proper investigations could be carried out, after all the Vatican had proved it can't be trusted.

If there is no clear evidence of the children being murdered or serious wrongdoing, then I don't think it will upset me. Though I do wonder how 7 children could have their cause of death listed as malnutrition: that's not something that kills overnight. But as I wrote, I'll wait for the final report.

Creating a situation where a child dies of malnutrition is basically murder,
Especially when food was most certainly not in short supply.

BloodBath

Morbert wrote: »

What I'm disputing is the notion that these women were being stolen from their families by the Catholic church/state, forced to live out their life in camps.

It was the families excommunicating women to camps who "brought shame" on them.

This is probably one of the most important scenes in the film "The Magdalene Sisters"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqoSB5e0R5o&t=6m30s

Another typical catholic church apologist. People like you and Absolam make me sick. How many atrocities need to be revealed for you to wake up?

This was wide spread, most in the church knew about it, and it was covered up all the way to the top of the church and state. Yet you are trying to imply that the church was only fulfilling the will of the Irish people. <snip>.

The Irish people have been and still are completely brain washed by an organisation claiming to represent god while they have a history of abuses that would make Satan proud. People sent their daughters to these places because of the horror of having a child out of wedlock and because of what the other brainwashed sheep would think. The lord is my shepherd indeed. These views were entirely instilled in people because of the Catholic church.

The abuses that were unveiled a decade ago had the state/Irish people paying €1.4 billion in reparations for a fraction of the abuses of the Catholic church while they hold hundreds of millions if not several billion in assets in Ireland alone. It's a <snip> joke.

They should be ran out of the country, all of their assets seized and sold, and all of the victims given some form of compensation. You don't need the bloody church to be spiritual, you don't need them to define your morals, you don't need them to get married, you don't need them to baptize your child or send them to school. Wake the <snip> up. This organisation does not represent god or the Irish people.

I guarantee you if a proper investigation is performed it will be revealed that many of these babies were abused and murdered and yet you will still find excuses.

800 babies unceremoniously dumped in a septic tank by people of god. Even ISIS wouldn't do that. The sooner the older brainwashed generation dies out the better. The people of this country have been held back long enough by your backwards thinking.

fran17

smacl wrote: »

Any references to back that up Fran? Maybe you could give us some figures as to what percentage of Irish pro life supporters are non-religious and let us know the source of your information.

Figures,percentages and sources in response to a rhetorical question?
I possess an equal number of references to that observation as the number of references you possess that would refute it.Anecdotally I know a few atheists and the majority would oppose abortion.Polls in the US suggest that up to 19% of atheist/agnostics support life.

fran17

aloyisious wrote: »

I can see that that particular "for instance" inclusion of the 8th by me as an example of RCC members observance of the church's teaching is something you wish to put more import on than its inclusion by me is worth. Do you desire that I delete inclusion of that example from my original and leave my other examples stand; because if you do, I will oblige?

If you did,wouldn't that mean you 8th your words...

lazybones32

Cabaal wrote: »

I think you'll find it has,
The Vatican failed you and every other Catholic when it knowingly covered up the abuse of children by members of the clergy. The guidelines included silencing victims and moving the priests.

If you don't see this as a failure then you should honestly take a good long hard look at yourself and what you see as right and wrong.
The church failed you when it refused to release records to Ireland, The UN and Australia so proper investigations could be carried out, after all the Vatican had proved it can't be trusted.



Creating a situation where a child dies of malnutrition is basically murder,
Especially when food was most certainly not in short supply.

You think the Church has failed me: I don't.


I'll wait for the Commission's findings before I accuse people of murder. The investigating Gardai haven't yet hinted that they suspect foul-play was involved but the forensic testing has only begun, so we'll have to wait.

marienbad

BloodBath wrote: »

Another typical catholic church apologist. People like you and Absolam make me sick. How many atrocities need to be revealed for you to wake up?

Far be it from me to defend Morbert - but I have to say you have got it very very wrong here imho. He/she is one of the most considered people posting on this forum and I for one always take their contribution as worthy of serious thought .

And no I am not an apologist for the RCC.

marienbad

lazybones32 wrote: »

You think the Church has failed me: I don't.


I'll wait for the Commission's findings before I accuse people of murder. The investigating Gardai haven't yet hinted that they suspect foul-play was involved but the forensic testing has only begun, so we'll have to wait.

Do you think the church needs to fail you personally before you deem it to have failed in its duty ?