The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)

Doctor DooM

gimmebroadband wrote: »

I don't hardly watch RTE much at all so I don't know whether they mentioned it or not.

Couldn't it be possible that the survivors had their own reps, who acted on their behalf, and through correspondence set up a meeting with the Pope's rep? It's understandable that he can't meet with everyone!

Well, I happened to be watching the news and they did mention it, so perhaps you should edit your previous statement.

The people I saw on RTE represented 2 survivors groups.

gimmebroadband

My reply was directed at Doc Farrell, who didn't supply the information I quoted. However, I edited my post!

Corkfeen

gimmebroadband wrote: »

Doctor DooM wrote: »

They didn't, they mentioned it in the report.

However Benny's guy seemed to pick and choose who he'd meet. That's the propblem.

I don't hardly watch RTE much at all so I don't know whether they mentioned it or not.

Couldn't it be possible that the survivors had their own reps, who acted on their behalf, and through correspondence set up a meeting with the Pope's rep? It's's understandable that he can't meet with everyone!

They should have to meet with every bloody victim that wants a meeting. It doesn't matter if it takes months or years. The victims have not received the entirety of the compensation and are entirely deserving of individual meetings to explain the behaviour of the entire organisation at the very least.

oceanclub

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Pope+envoy+apologises+Irish+child+abuse+victims/6775681/story.html#ixzz1xl79RQJS

"We learned too that the response of some Church authorities to these crimes was often inadequate and inefficient in stopping the crimes"

Talk about a mealy-mouthed dishonest apology. No wonder abuse victims are still annoyed.

P.

gimmebroadband

Corkfeen wrote: »

They should have to meet with every bloody victim that wants a meeting. It doesn't matter if it takes months or years. The victims have not received the entirety of the compensation and are entirely deserving of individual meetings to explain the behaviour of the entire organisation at the very least.

Not all abuse survivors want a meeting, but for those that do they should be accommodated - absolutely!

georgieporgy

oceanclub wrote: »

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Pope+envoy+apologises+Irish+child+abuse+victims/6775681/story.html#ixzz1xl79RQJS



Talk about a mealy-mouthed dishonest apology. No wonder abuse victims are still annoyed.

P.

here's the rest of the apology:

"I come here with the specific intention of seeking forgiveness, from God and from the Victims, for the grave sin of sexual abuse of children by clerics," he said.
"We have learned over the last decades how much harm and despair such abuse caused to thousands of victims.
"We learned too that the response of some Church authorities to these crimes was often inadequate and inefficient in stopping the crimes, in spite of clear indications in the code of canon law."

Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Pope+envoy+apologises+Irish+child+abuse+victims/6775681/story.html#ixzz1xm9XkLyW

Seems like a pretty sincere and complete apology to me. And then there was the 2 hour private meeting he had with victims reps that we don't have details of.

oceanclub

georgieporgy wrote: »

here's the rest of the apology:

"I come here with the specific intention of seeking forgiveness, from God and from the Victims, for the grave sin of sexual abuse of children by clerics," he said.
"We have learned over the last decades how much harm and despair such abuse caused to thousands of victims.
"We learned too that the response of some Church authorities to these crimes was often inadequate and inefficient in stopping the crimes, in spite of clear indications in the code of canon law."

Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Pope+envoy+apologises+Irish+child+abuse+victims/6775681/story.html#ixzz1xm9XkLyW

Seems like a pretty sincere and complete apology to me. And then there was the 2 hour private meeting he had with victims reps that we don't have details of.

It labels the Church's response as merely "inadequate and inefficient". Inefficient. Of course that is mealy-mouthed. Nowhere does it even allude to decades of coverups. Was Cardinal Brady - who still hasn't resigned - merely "inefficient"?

P.

lmaopml

georgieporgy wrote: »

here's the rest of the apology:

"I come here with the specific intention of seeking forgiveness, from God and from the Victims, for the grave sin of sexual abuse of children by clerics," he said.
"We have learned over the last decades how much harm and despair such abuse caused to thousands of victims.
"We learned too that the response of some Church authorities to these crimes was often inadequate and inefficient in stopping the crimes, in spite of clear indications in the code of canon law."

Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Pope+envoy+apologises+Irish+child+abuse+victims/6775681/story.html#ixzz1xm9XkLyW

Seems like a pretty sincere and complete apology to me. And then there was the 2 hour private meeting he had with victims reps that we don't have details of.

You won't get many thanks for that. No amount of apologies will do, even though innocent people are apologising because they feel not so much that they should defend the faith, but defend truth and kindness and goodness and all the virtues that were always there but have been overshadowed by the 'wrong' done to children by those who were meant to be models of virtue -

It doesn't matter about the judicial systme, the state or even the lay involvement at not rising to the occasion, it matters to people more that the ones they put their trust in weren't 'first' to shout out -

It's about rebuilding, and hopefully people do recognise that not every Catholic was abused or had a crap time, or met bad people, lots, even the vast majority who are bewildered had very positive experiences and very good people both in their families, schools and communities.

Time to focus on some humility with those who are hurt, and taking heart in the backbone that was always there of good.

Pwpane

oceanclub wrote: »

It labels the Church's response as merely "inadequate and inefficient". Inefficient. Of course that is mealy-mouthed. Nowhere does it even allude to decades of coverups. Was Cardinal Brady - who still hasn't resigned - merely "inefficient"?

P.

You need to finish the quote - he said that the Church's response was often inadequate and inefficient in stopping the crimes.

Of course it's mealy-mouthed. There is no mention anywhere of punishment or restorative justice, just that the Church wasn't very good at stopping the abuse.

It was always emphasised to us when we were young that your sins were not forgiven unless you had true repentance, which not only meant not repeating the sin but in some way lessening the impact of the sin on any victim (e.g. return the money you stole etc).

The Church's response was certainly to try to stop the repetition of the sin by moving the priest away from the children that were tempting him. The priest's soul was in danger.

The children just didn't figure at all in the calculations. It was a pity, but they'd be fine. On the other hand, a priest of God had to be saved. And above all, the holy Church had to be protected from scandal as that would put the faith of thousands at risk. How could any bishop/pope allow Jesus' mission as Saviour of mankind be set back. That was unthinkable. The reputation of the Church had to be preserved.

Have you forgotten the mind set? Don't you see evidence of it constantly in this forum, this thread even?

That the moved priest would leave a trail of destruction behind him was not significant.

The Church was not inefficient at caring for these children. You're not inefficient at doing something if you don't try to do it.

How the Church's response was inadequate is not clear. Inadequate in that it didn't care for the children or inadequate in not stopping the abuse - it could be either the way the sentence is phrased.

If he means that the response was inadequate by not caring for the children, it's a bit of an understatement.

Just a bit...

Pwpane

lmaopml wrote: »

You won't get many thanks for that. No amount of apologies will do, even though innocent people are apologising because they feel not so much that they should defend the faith, but defend truth and kindness and goodness and all the virtues that were always there but have been overshadowed by the 'wrong' done to children by those who were meant to be models of virtue -

The Pope is not innocent in this and his envoy represents him.

It doesn't matter about the judicial systme, the state or even the lay involvement at not rising to the occasion, it matters to people more that the ones they put their trust in weren't 'first' to shout out -

Thanks for recognising that.

It's about rebuilding, and hopefully people do recognise that not every Catholic was abused or had a crap time, or met bad people, lots, even the vast majority who are bewildered had very positive experiences and very good people both in their families, schools and communities.

No, not every Catholic was abused or had a crap time. Mostly those who didn't have someone to protect them, or someone who would believe them - not always the same thing.

Time to focus on some humility with those who are hurt, and taking heart in the backbone that was always there of good.

Yes, there was always a backbone of good. But remembering the bad that was always there with it, and the temptation inherent in assuming power over others, is very necessary to achieving and maintaining humility.

Brer Fox

If you look at this story, you see that the abbey where Smith was based was sold and some of the proceeds went to the victims.

http://clericalwhispers.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/norbertine-abbey-at-kilnacrott-to.html

The media kept very quiet about this. I only heard about it today.

MrPudding

Brer Fox wrote: »

If you look at this story, you see that the abbey where Smith was based was sold and some of the proceeds went to the victims.

http://clericalwhispers.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/norbertine-abbey-at-kilnacrott-to.html

The media kept very quiet about this. I only heard about it today.

Really? They sold an Abbey to pay compensation? What happened? Did they not have time to transfer it to a sham trust so they cod cynicly plead poverty?

Also, are you actually a re-reg of Donatello? I don't recall his posts bei g quite as objectonable as some of yours, but it has been a long time.

MrP

newmug

I was thinking about this recently. Is it possible that all the recent scandal the Church has been involved in might have actually done some good? Every time I go to mass, the Church seems fuller. I see people going to confessions again, something that was almost extinct a few years ago. Today, our church was so full there were people kneeling in the aisles. Yes, kneeling!!! And yesterday, I was up at the anti-abortion rally, and althought it wasn't exactly a religiously themed event, there definately was a religious aspect to the whole thing. And 25K people attended, thats 1% of the entire adult population of the country!!!

My thoughts are that the recent events in the Church have shaken people up, they have made people re-evaluate what their relationship with God means to them. While a large contingent have fallen away into athiesm, an even larger proportion have had a re-awakening of sorts, and are actively practicing their beliefs and faiths again. So much so, that Catholicism is well on its way to its former glory! Glory to God.

What are your thoughts?

kippy

newmug wrote: »

I was thinking about this recently. Is it possible that all the recent scandal the Church has been involved in might have actually done some good? Every time I go to mass, the Church seems fuller. I see people going to confessions again, something that was almost extinct a few years ago. Today, our church was so full there were people kneeling in the aisles. Yes, kneeling!!! And yesterday, I was up at the anti-abortion rally, and althought it wasn't exactly a religiously themed event, there definately was a religious aspect to the whole thing. And 25K people attended, thats 1% of the entire adult population of the country!!!

My thoughts are that the recent events in the Church have shaken people up, they have made people re-evaluate what their relationship with God means to them. While a large contingent have fallen away into athiesm, an even larger proportion have had a re-awakening of sorts, and are actively practicing their beliefs and faiths again. So much so, that Catholicism is well on its way to its former glory! Glory to God.

What are your thoughts?

I totally disagree to be honest.
The abuse and more so the concerted cover ups and lack of anything resembling true remorse from the church have completely put me off being part of the "practising" church.
I might still have beliefs about a higher being, but I want nothing to do with the catholic church and their biased beliefs.
I find the recent comments by the bishops on abortion (as well as other moral medical views) the longest in a long line of draconian practises that should have been banished many years ago. The country is only just coming out of the dark ages in this respect but the church still has too much authority and power attached to it.

As I said, I've some beliefs but don't believe that you need to be a member of an organised religion to somehow make yourself feel better.

murraykil

No, the facilitation of probably the largest international paedophile ring in history is in no way a good thing. Even the thought that it may be a good thing is shocking! But it's possibly expected if one thinks that the roman catholic church was glorious during a time in which the welfare of paedophiles and the reputation of the church and it's hierarchy was deemed more important than the security and sanctity of children.

totus tuus

I think it was good for the scandals to be 'exposed', so that the rot can be gotten rid of! Dust and dirt should never be ignored or covered up, a bit of house-clearing was in order!

Hopefully lessons have been learned!

Benny_Cake

Mod note: As the discussion on the church scandals thread will inevitably concern the clerical abuse scandals, I've merged it with the relevant megathread.

murraykil

totus tuus wrote: »

I think it was good for the scandals to be 'exposed', so that the rot can be gotten rid of! Dust and dirt should never be ignored or covered up, a bit of house-clearing was in order!

Hopefully lessons have been learned!

I doubt they have been learned as I doubt that many of those in higher positions either care to learn if they did not care enough to protect children from predatory paedophiles. Many of them escaped the justice system due to the lapse of time or the laws of the time which did not require the reporting of such evil. It was possibly a more naive time when people didn't realise that legislation was needed to require the reporting of child abuse.

Had some of the evil people in higher positions who were at the root of the facilitation and cover up being removed from the church and punished by the criminal justice system then maybe lessons would have been learned and the church cleaned up.

The Roman catholic church has learned no more than Jimmy Seville had by the time that he died, other than how to gett away with inflicting evil on children.

Morbert

It seems it's Germany's turn now.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/19/world/europe/report-details-sexual-abuse-of-children-by-german-priests.html?_r=0

murraykil

Morbert wrote: »

It seems it's Germany's turn now.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/19/world/europe/report-details-sexual-abuse-of-children-by-german-priests.html?_r=0

Hopefully the police will take over the investigation now since the Roman catholic church is still trying to cover up it's facilitation of paedophilia as indicated by this article:

German Bishops Cancel Study Into Sexual Abuse by Priests
...

Hopefully the laws in Germany will allow the prosecution of those who facilitated the paedophilia by covering it up as well as those who carried it out.

Doc Farrell

"Germany’s bishops have vowed a thorough and impartial investigation into the abuse. Bishop Stephan Ackermann of Trier, who is looking into abuse cases for the German Bishops’ Conference, told reporters after the report was released on Thursday that it served as an example of that intention.

“I found particularly devastating the perpetrators’ lies to their under-aged victims that their actions were an expression of a loving bond with God,” he said Thursday. Claudia Adams, who said she was assaulted as a child in a preschool run by the church in a village near Trier, works through her trauma by blogging about the abuse scandal. The priest who abused her “told me that I was now ‘closer to God,’ ” she said in a telephone interview on Friday from her home near Trier. "

A fairly devastating example of how power, corruption and real evil can destroy lives.

Arcee

There's a film coming out here on February 22nd about the abuse of deaf children by priests in the USA and Ireland.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjzuVy_KmIg

Hybernian Angel

Thiswas in todaysc Sunday Independent. The nun was depicted as a horrific child abuser and has the dubious honour of opening the child abuse can of worms in the Irish Industrial schools.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/my-friend-sr-xavieria-the-evil-monster-29120547.html

Kettleson

In a week when 2 more Irish catholic clergy members were found guilty of sex abuse, I am wondering is there a central database of all clergy members found guilty of sexual abuse in Ireland?

There is one in America.

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/

Hybernian Angel

No - not a clerical one per se. There's one for all sex offenders.

Kettleson

murraykil wrote: »

I doubt they have been learned as I doubt that many of those in higher positions either care to learn if they did not care enough to protect children from predatory paedophiles. Many of them escaped the justice system due to the lapse of time or the laws of the time which did not require the reporting of such evil. It was possibly a more naive time when people didn't realise that legislation was needed to require the reporting of child abuse.

Had some of the evil people in higher positions who were at the root of the facilitation and cover up being removed from the church and punished by the criminal justice system then maybe lessons would have been learned and the church cleaned up.

The Roman catholic church has learned no more than Jimmy Seville had by the time that he died, other than how to gett away with inflicting evil on children.

I was enquiring as to whether there was an Irish database of Clergy involved in child abuse or those responsible for covering it up, so I'm new to this thread and have not read it all. I totally agree with your post.

I cannot pass comment from a research/scientific basis, but I would suggest that many involved in such abuse would have very strong psycho/sociopathic characteristics, if not a full on psycho/sociopath (if they were ever assessed in a professional manner).

A sociopath/psychopath typically will rarely accept any wrong doing or guilt on their behalf, lacking the conscience to recognise that they did anything wrong in the first place, and will only accept any responsibility if it is in their benefit to do so.

I'm hoping that a database of UK and Irish clergy will be put together. I'm not on a witch hunt, but I think it necessary that the gravity and extent of the abuse can be realised at a glance. Otherwise its a further concealment of the acts committed by the clergy.

It horrifying and sickening, but all of the truth and facts needs to be made known before we can move on.

Manach

Given, from my academic source experience, that the majority of such abuse is committed by members of the family/known people the existance of such a database populated only by clergy would serve nothing more as a distraction to used to attack clergy in general and to adds nothing to the care/monitoring of cases by those most vulnerable.

Kettleson

Manach wrote: »

Given, from my academic source experience, that the majority of such abuse is committed by members of the family/known people the existance of such a database populated only by clergy would serve nothing more as a distraction to used to attack clergy in general and to adds nothing to the care/monitoring of cases by those most vulnerable.

That may well be true, but there's gonna be one sooner or later.

I would however not agree with your last comment. ie: "adds nothing to the care/monitoring of cases by those most vulnerable".

I would have thought the opposite would be the case. If anything it serves to raise the awareness of sexual predators/abusers hidden within organised institutions, then that is a good thing. Especially when this will give others who have been abused by the Clergy to make their cases known, and have the care and support to do so.

There will be downsides, (I can recall a case in southern England where an angry vigilante mob attacked the house of a paediatrician, as they thought he was a paedophile), but those downsides are outweighed by the positives.

The truth has to come out in its entirety, and all of the facts are in the public domain. It's only a matter of time before they are all put in the one place.

robp

Kettleson wrote: »

In a week when 2 more Irish catholic clergy members were found guilty of sex abuse, I am wondering is there a central database of all clergy members found guilty of sexual abuse in Ireland?

There is one in America.

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/

Some of these websites aren't really scientific databases at all. Some of them are unreliable sites infusing political views with what is known or conflating the accused and the guilty. I am not saying that particular website is not decent but some are very eg the vaticancrimes website. There are plenty of more reliable means to get at this knowledge in Ireland.

tomasocarthaigh

As a writer, I often write on the issues of the day, and have been taking a keen intrest in the election of the new Argentine Pope, and in particular his response to one of my pet piques with my church, the atholi hurh, its handling of the abuse issue.

The hurh in the past has tried to deflect attacks on it in a two fold manner - accuse its accusers of being anti-catholic, and to claim its wrongdoers are ill and not criminally responsible.

Now, lets address abuse for what it is: unwanted sexual advances ranging from first contact to penetrative sexual relations... all the worse as its with a minor.

If a non ordained person does such, an they claim sickness and refuse to deal with the civil courts? No.

Can they plead to be moved to another town? No. Nor should they be.

The clergy, when finding a wrongdoer from their ranks, should hand them to the civil authorities, defrocking them first.

The third defense that Canon Law is superior to civil law is an absurdity, Christ himself stated that "to God his, and to Cesear his due", a statement about the payment of taxes that can be applied to which criminal law to be adhered to. Defrocking is Gods law, prosecultion in civil court is Cesears law.

Its up to us as Catholics to demand this is put in place, and to campaign and resist when the likes of the African cardinal claim the perpetrators are sick to demand the truth to be told that it is not so.

We dont need an orginisation, formally set up to do so. As Catholics, and under the Occupy or Anonymous banners, we can do so in whatever media or campaign format we work in.

I, according to myself, am a poet, and that is the medium in which I work and campaign, and have been writing some rhyming and non rhyming verse on the topic in the past few years, a few samples of which I publish here.

If nothing else, maybe sharing these or this post could be your contribution.

Pope Francis – A New Tsar at the Vatican

Gods Ministers Who Abused His Trust