Does the triple crown really matter??

escobar

It's nice to win some thing and definitely very good for marketing so overall I think it's a good idea........
though is it really something to celebrate or is it just the consolation prize.

Three's pretty much a cup for most matches as shown below

Calcutta Cup - England versus Scotland; contested annually since 1879 [4]
Centenary Quaich - Scotland versus Ireland; contested annually since 1989; a quaich is a Gaelic drinking vessel [5] [6] [7]
Giuseppe Garibaldi Trophy - France versus Italy; contested since 2007; in memory of Giuseppe Garibaldi
Millennium Trophy - England versus Ireland; contested since 1988; presented to celebrate Dublin's millennium in 1988 [8]

walshb

Hey, we get to beat the sore loser Welsh, the Scots, and the English...hell, it does matter!

Noffles

I think it's a great thing to win... but with the high(er) expectations it seems a little tainted... Being Welsh I would of loved it!!

Noffles

walshb wrote: »

Hey, we get to beat the sore loser Welsh, the Scots, and the English...hell, it does matter!

Sorry "Sore Loser Welsh".......?

Teferi

Yeah, I'd only consider the English bad losers myself.

Anyway, I like the Triple Crown. It's a nice little trophy to grab but it is tainted by higher expectations.

buck65

It mattered when we couldn't win it, it doesn't matter now that we win the thing every year or so it seems!

It reminds me a bit of a story Ger Loughnane told when Clare were beaten in a League final by Kilkenny. He saw the Kilkenny captain throw the cup into his boot and drive away, if it were Clare there would have been a procession.

I suppose my point is that of the "home" nations we are the standard bearer now and have dominated the recent fixtures thus winning the Triple Crown a few times. Like ourselves I expect Wales aren't too bothered about winning the Triple Crown these days either as they have also won a Grand Slam (or 2.
Yet if Scotland or Italy won it would be massive for those countries, and I would add England here too (imagine the new found Crown hype).

But deep down for Wales and Ireland winning a triple crown but losing the Championship would be seen as a disappointment. We need to be winning more champioships.

toomevara

OP, think you'll need to refine your poll. I don't agree with any of your categories!

You'll see how important it is next weekend if Ireland contrive to lose it! We'll all be left with a very,very empty feeling indeed and suddenly the 6N season wont have quite the gloss it has at the minute.

escobar

Noffles wrote: »

I think it's a great thing to win... but with the high(er) expectations it seems a little tainted... Being Welsh I would of loved it!!

Yeah I suppose we were going for holding onto the six nations trophy this year...

I think we've won the triple crown 5 of the last eight years ...I'd swop it all though for the second six nations this year.....

buck65

toomevara wrote: »

OP, think you'll need to refine your poll. I don't agree with any of your categories!

You'll see how important it is next weekend if Ireland contrive to lose it! We'll all be left with a very,very empty feeling indeed and suddenly the 6N season wont have quite the gloss it has at the minute.

But surely Toome we would feel this way after any loss? Am I alone in thinking that regardless of beating Wales and England that the failure in Paris cancels them all out. For me it is C'ship or bust.

nosco

Winning 3 matches in a 5 match tournament, I don't see the achievement.

Risteard

Triple Crown as a trophy doesn't mean a lot. Whether it's there or not, I would still want us to win and if we lost I'd be equally disappointed whether we would have won a trophy or not. So in that sense it doesn't matter as I don't think it offers any extra incentive that shouldn't already be there anyway.

It's just a reward for beating the other home nations, which we should be aiming to do anyway e.g. if suddenly a new trophy came in for just beating France, would it really increase your desire to beat them? It would still be the same for me. That's my take on it anyway.

toomevara

buck65 wrote: »

But surely Toome we would feel this way after any loss? Am I alone in thinking that regardless of beating Wales and England that the failure in Paris cancels them all out. For me it is C'ship or bust.

Yeah buck, definitely a point there. I guess it gives us some silverware and puts the cap on a very good 6N in the round. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the triple crown is a glittering prize by any measure but its still a nice achievement and gives the team a well deserved tangible reward. Put it this way. any of the other home unions would give their eye teeth for it next weekend.

As for France, for me it wasn't so much the defeat as the manner of it that still rankles.....

buck65

toomevara wrote: »

As for France, for me it wasn't so much the defeat as the manner of it that still rankles.....

Exactly.

JustinDee

The basic aim is to win every game that is played. Its that simple.
If Ireland win the Triple Crown then so be it. At this stage there is a fairly impressive momentum in shaping the squad.
A lot of hard work has gone into getting where they are now and more is required to take it where the sights are set for.

I took the 6N and Triple Crown trophies on tour at various stages last summer and autumn. Whether it was at a Beach Tag festival, to a club function or to a total of eight schools in Ballina area in a day (!), the help trophies like the Triple Crown provide in promoting the sport is priceless.

The_Kew_Tour

Its a trophy that only 4 of the 6 teams can win. Give to win the championship anyday over that outdated thing.

walshb

Noffles wrote: »

Sorry "Sore Loser Welsh".......?

Yeah, the Welsh, who famously refused the after match dinner date with the Irish....

The team I am speaking of.

Noffles

walshb wrote: »

Yeah, the Welsh, who famously refused the after match dinner date with the Irish....

The team I am speaking of.

I fail to see what Wales dodging a dinner and being called bad losers has to do with winning the Triple Crown... pointless and irrelevant comment...

Maybe they weren't hungry.

buck65

When did this happen?
The Welsh seem like really decent blokes to me and by all accounts get on very well with the Irish players away from the pitch.

JustinDee

buck65 wrote: »

When did this happen?
The Welsh seem like really decent blokes to me and by all accounts get on very well with the Irish players away from the pitch.

They are and they do. We were treated like royalty by them in Cardiff last March (wow, a year ago already).

The normal Celtic attitude that I'd love to see die out is the turgid line "I don't care who wins today so long as you beat the English".
Its utterly pathetic and thankfully not so prevalent these days given Ireland's improvements over the past decade.

walshb

buck65 wrote: »

When did this happen?
The Welsh seem like really decent blokes to me and by all accounts get on very well with the Irish players away from the pitch.

It was many years ago after the Irish stuffed the Welsh in Cardiff. One of the Irish was asked about it and his reply was, "Ah, that's the Welsh." Maybe someone has more info on this.
It was a story I was told, and I am not in a position right now to get the details again

Aidric

It's a sign of our increased confidence and aspirations that the triple crown isn't quite as glossy as it once was. It's just another notch at this stage but a satisfactory one all the same.

The_Kew_Tour

Christ us Irish can be bad loosers at times too you know.

Went college in Wales and they bloody love us. I have great time for them and always want see them do well behind us.

Christ it was only a dinner.

Aidric

walshb wrote: »

Yeah, the Welsh, who famously refused the after match dinner date with the Irish....

Was it something to do with the leek and potato soup being taken off the menu?

buck65

walshb wrote: »

It was many years ago after the Irish stuffed the Welsh in Cardiff. One of the Irish was asked about it and his reply was, "Ah, that's the Welsh." Maybe someone has more info on this.
It was a story I was told, and I am not in a position right now to get the details again

So a story you were told about something that happened many years ago about a dinner gives you licence to call the Welsh bad losers?
They seemed quite decent and gracious at the final whistle on Saturday.

andrewdcs

Triple crown certainly has a high place, obviously nothing to winning the championship or Grand Slam but any acknowledgment for a team beating their island neighbors in one season is a good idea.
Ireland would have killed for anything at all through the 90s, no chance against France, very little against England. Beating Wales, Scotland and England in a row, home away etc. is a big achievement. Danger of getting greedy and slipping into the English mindset in the 90s, that every season should end with them playing France for the Slam, such was the dominance.

As for the 'sore loser' stuff. Wha? Don't recognize that sentiment at all from anywhere, perhaps your thinking of football / a dream you once had?

irishbucsfan

JustinDee wrote: »

They are and they do. We were treated like royalty by them in Cardiff last March (wow, a year ago already).

The normal Celtic attitude that I'd love to see die out is the turgid line "I don't care who wins today so long as you beat the English".
Its utterly pathetic and thankfully not so prevalent these days given Ireland's improvements over the past decade.

I disagree. I think it's perfectly natural for any team to have a rivalry with their neighbors, and it exists throughout sports across the world. There's bound to be a rivalry between Ireland and England. It's historically been more important to the Irish because people from this country have never been able to get over our past, but now that Ireland have eclipsed England in terms of quality for the time being they are bound to develop their own reasons for wanting to beat us.

In my own case, I enjoy beating England more than most other countries (New Zealand would be sweeter, and South Africa are always satisfying) and not because I have a hatred for the country (I don't, at all). I meet English rugby fans all over the world and I enjoy teasing them when we beat them, and they enjoy reminding me of their success in 2003. It really annoys me when people accuse me of being tribal for wanting Ireland to beat England, when its a perfectly natural rivalry that was always going to develop.

For example, I'm a Wolves fan in soccer, and I absolutely LOVE to see West Brom get beaten, because its a natural rivalry that has developed in Wolverhampton, for the exact same reasons (geographical proximity and similar level of ability). Maybe tribal is the best word to describe it. It's become a negative term, but I see it as a positive thing. If Ireland can motivate themselves to play at a higher level because of a tribal desire to rise above their neighbors and be recognised as the best team in the British Isles then I'm delighted to see that happen.

PhatPiggins

escobar wrote: »

It's nice to win some thing and definitely very good for marketing so overall I think it's a good idea........
though is it really something to celebrate or is it just the consolation prize.

Three's pretty much a cup for most matches as shown below

Calcutta Cup - England versus Scotland; contested annually since 1879 [4]
Centenary Quaich - Scotland versus Ireland; contested annually since 1989; a quaich is a Gaelic drinking vessel [5] [6] [7]
Giuseppe Garibaldi Trophy - France versus Italy; contested since 2007; in memory of Giuseppe Garibaldi
Millennium Trophy - England versus Ireland; contested since 1988; presented to celebrate Dublin's millennium in 1988 [8]

Thats a badly worded poll imo. You've one over exuberant positive option and 3 negative ones.

walshb

buck65 wrote: »

So a story you were told about something that happened many years ago about a dinner gives you licence to call the Welsh bad losers?
They seemed quite decent and gracious at the final whistle on Saturday.

Hey, you asked...

I never mentioned the team from Saturday. Generally I think of them as not being good losers, and even worse winners.

PhatPiggins

JustinDee wrote: »

They are and they do. We were treated like royalty by them in Cardiff last March (wow, a year ago already).

The normal Celtic attitude that I'd love to see die out is the turgid line "I don't care who wins today so long as you beat the English".
Its utterly pathetic and thankfully not so prevalent these days given Ireland's improvements over the past decade.

Croke Park 24/2/2007.

I think that attitude is in the absolute minority

toomevara

This Welsh sore loser stuff is odd. Not something I can relate to in many years of going to Ireland/Wales games. I sat next to an ex Llanelli prop at the twickenham game and he was roaring for Ireland almost as much as I was. Personally, and from a purely rugby standpoint, the six nations team I love to see us beat most is France. It is my lifelong ambition to see Ireland beat France in Paris (yes, I did manage to miss 2000).

walshb

toomevara wrote: »

This Welsh sore loser stuff is odd. Not something I can relate to in many years of going to Ireland/Wales games. I sat next to an ex Llanelli prop at the twickenham game and he was roaring for Ireland almost as much as I was. Personally, and from a purely rugby standpoint, the six nations team I love to see us beat most is France. It is my lifelong ambition to see Ireland beat France in Paris (yes, I did manage to miss 2000).

The team I most want to see the win over is Wales. Doesn't everyone roar against the English? I don't see what this has to do with it. That same guy probably bends over when Prince Charles or William arrive.

toomevara

walshb wrote: »

The team I most want to see the in over is Wales. Doesn't everyone roar against the English? I don't see what this has to do with it.

I shout for England when they play France...there I've said it, it's out there!..oh the horror, what have I become....and I support them in RL....

walshb

toomevara wrote: »

I shout for England when they play France...there I've said it, it's out there!..oh the horror, what have I become....and I support them in RL....

So do I.

d'Oracle

On Topic, I have felt strongly for some time that the Triple Crown is more of a "you didn't beat France" perpetual trophy.

I think Drico made the point when he was handed the plate last year and he pretended to throw it away like a frizzbe.

My mind boggled at the reaction when we won that first one a couple of years ago. I think there is an element of "tradition" in rugby which boils down to pointlessly observing what was important to your dad/the alicadoos in the club house, but means nothing as the game matures and develops.

Noffles

I think there's more posts on Wales ability to be sore losers than there is on the Triple Crown...
And while I'm on that subject, sore winners are almost as bad... a guy just in front of me in Croke, at the end of the match was a right tool about the match... while I openly accepted being beaten by a better team and went for a pint to discuss with almost every Irish fan who spoke to me how bad we were and how good you were... sadly :rolleyes:

walshb

Noffles wrote: »

I think there's more posts on Wales ability to be sore losers than there is on the Triple Crown...
And while I'm on that subject, sore winners are almost as bad... a guy just in front of me in Croke, at the end of the match was a right tool about the match... while I openly accepted being beaten by a better team and went for a pint to discuss with almost every Irish fan who spoke to me how bad we were and how good you were... sadly :rolleyes:

The Welsh fans are always good craic.

buck65

:P

Noffles wrote: »

I think there's more posts on Wales ability to be sore losers than there is on the Triple Crown...
And while I'm on that subject, sore winners are almost as bad... a guy just in front of me in Croke, at the end of the match was a right tool about the match... while I openly accepted being beaten by a better team and went for a pint to discuss with almost every Irish fan who spoke to me how bad we were and how good you were... sadly :rolleyes:

Come on man get yourself together, it's actually only one guy who was poisoned by a Welsh waiter a few years back or something:P

andrewdcs

+1 for England over France, especially this year, when England fans are in danger of substance abuse. Living in London has helped I have to say. Familiarity breeding acceptance not contempt in my case.

My mind boggled at the reaction when we won that first one a couple of years ago. I think there is an element of "tradition" in rugby which boils down to pointlessly observing what was important to your dad/the alicadoos in the club house, but means nothing as the game matures and develops.

I really disagree, it only feels like that now, but that win in 04 (was it that long ago?) was the first sign that we'd really got something going. IIRC we had a famous win in Twickenham (O'Gara pulling all the strings) and winning the crown against Scotland / finishing second capped of a great year. We really don't know how well we've had it, awful world cup aside, the past 6 years.

JustinDee

irishbucsfan wrote: »

For example, I'm a Wolves fan in soccer, and I absolutely LOVE to see West Brom get beaten, because its a natural rivalry that has developed in Wolverhampton, for the exact same reasons (geographical proximity and similar level of ability). Maybe tribal is the best word to describe it. It's become a negative term, but I see it as a positive thing. If Ireland can motivate themselves to play at a higher level because of a tribal desire to rise above their neighbors and be recognised as the best team in the British Isles then I'm delighted to see that happen.

Not what I'm saying.
I'm talking about the likes of a cabbie in Scotland before the Scotland v Ireland game saying 'I don't care who wins tomorrow so long as you beat the f**king English'.
That is pathetic.

Noffles

buck65 wrote: »

:P

Come on man get yourself together, it's actually only one guy who was poisoned by a Welsh waiter a few years back or something:P

Don't get me wrong I wasn't branding everyone the same... just this clown.. hope it was poison too!

Eoin

andrewdcs wrote: »

I really disagree, it only feels like that now, but that win in 04 (was it that long ago?) was the first sign that we'd really got something going. IIRC we had a famous win in Twickenham (O'Gara pulling all the strings) and winning the crown against Scotland / finishing second capped of a great year. We really don't know how well we've had it, awful world cup aside, the past 6 years.

Exactly. How can we consider a trophy beneath us (even if it was only an actual trophy quite recently) when we hadn't won it in such a long time? It was like the people last year and 3 years ago saying that winning the 6 nations wasn't good enough if we won on points rather than a grand slam. We were hardly in a position to be fussy.

An awful lot has changed since then however, so I don't consider the Triple Crown a particularly important trophy any more.

Beating a southern hemisphere team shouldn't be that big a deal for us, but I have a feeling there will be some celebrations when we finally beat the All Blacks.

d'Oracle wrote:

I think there is an element of "tradition" in rugby which boils down to pointlessly observing what was important to your dad/the alicadoos in the club house, but means nothing as the game matures and develops.

That must make me an alicadoo at the grand age of 31 then, because having followed Ireland as a kid in the late 80s and the particularly awful 90s, a triple crown would have been a brilliant result.

d'Oracle wrote:

I think Drico made the point when he was handed the plate last year and he pretended to throw it away like a frizzbe.

He certainly wasn't that blasé about it the first time he won it.

pickarooney

OP, your links all point to boards.ie instead of wikipedia(?)

d'Oracle

andrewdcs wrote: »

I really disagree, it only feels like that now, but that win in 04 (was it that long ago?) was the first sign that we'd really got something going. IIRC we had a famous win in Twickenham (O'Gara pulling all the strings) and winning the crown against Scotland / finishing second capped of a great year. We really don't know how well we've had it, awful world cup aside, the past 6 years.

If France had the record we had over the last 6 years they would be gutted.
You are acting like we didn't come second for 5 out of 6 years.

Sure we had a great team, but a woeful manager who was being lauded while crippling one of the most devastating back lines we have produced.

We have literally fallen at the last hurdle and then celebrated the booby prize for 3 out of 5 years.

And to Eoin, dude I followed the Irish team through the 90's, you aren't that old, I reckon you were probably appreciating rugby alright in 85, I can't say that about myself. But just because we were crap for ten years, doesn't mean we should be happy to finish runner up for 5 out 6 years. Especially with arguably the superior team in most of those years.

I'm not not giving credit here, I am loving the success, and I did a lot of cheering last year, but if you won the crown and didn't win the championship, then you are still not a winner.

You don't win silver, you lose gold.

Incidentally, you didn't even win silver till we started winning the thing and all of a sudden, (wink Syd Millar) there was a trophy.

walshb

Hey, we all know that coming second is not winning, even though here in Ireland, coming 21st/22ndnd is like winning (Irish Bobsleigh Team):) But, the Triple Crown is a long standing "award" and it's important I think to win it.

andrewdcs

We have literally fallen at the last hurdle and then celebrated the booby prize for 3 out of 5 years.

I'll give you that, but I'm thinking of us being wooden spoon holders for so long that a crown was/is a rare thing. England of a few years ago could care less about the triple crown, cos they won them every year for 10 years barely breaking sweat (ok, I'm exaggerating, but it was a fait accompli for many years).
We lost by inches 2 of those years, we won by the same inches last year. this year we were thrown off the park in France (as happens so often)

as Crowns go, Saturday won't have the gloss of beating an England team going for a slam (remember that!) but this will still have to be a "good 6 nations" for us historically if we beat Scotland in any style (as we can).

PhatPiggins

d'Oracle wrote: »

If France had the record we had over the last 6 years they would be gutted.
You are acting like we didn't come second for 5 out of 6 years.

Sure we had a great team, but a woeful manager who was being lauded while crippling one of the most devastating back lines we have produced.

We have literally fallen at the last hurdle and then celebrated the booby prize for 3 out of 5 years.

And to Eoin, dude I followed the Irish team through the 90's, you aren't that old, I reckon you were probably appreciating rugby alright in 85, I can't say that about myself. But just because we were crap for ten years, doesn't mean we should be happy to finish runner up for 5 out 6 years. Especially with arguably the superior team in most of those years.

I'm not not giving credit here, I am loving the success, and I did a lot of cheering last year, but if you won the crown and didn't win the championship, then you are still not a winner.

You don't win silver, you lose gold.

Incidentally, you didn't even win silver till we started winning the thing and all of a sudden, (wink Syd Millar) there was a trophy.

Great team? By what standard?

We had BOD and 3/4 very good players. The rest being decent. I think we over achieved bar the WC.

Podge_irl

d'Oracle wrote: »

Sure we had a great team, but a woeful manager who was being lauded while crippling one of the most devastating back lines we have produced.

Eddie O'Sullivan was anything but a woeful manager. I might add that his Irish teams player far more attractive rugby than Kidney's one so I don't know where this crippling of the back-line nonsense is coming from.


The TC is nice for the team to win. Ultimately though the game against Scotland isn't for the TC so much as it is another 6N test match and Ireland rightly set out to win as many of them as they can.

Spud83

I think its important that we go out and try and win every game. Especially test matches.

If/When(touches wood) we win on Saturday I won't necessarily be celebrating the triple crown, I will be celebrating another Irish victory, and the end to a a good tenure at Croke Park.

There would be a greater sense of loss losing the triple crown, than a sense of achievement if we won it. (probably not wording that correctly).

Edit: Just to add, I'll be sticking around to see the shield collected and I hope the majority of the crowd do as well.

Judgement Day

Poll a bit eccentric alright but still felt obliged to say Triple Crown is the be all and end of all of Northern Hemisphere rugby because the option of the Grand Slam was not there. That said, for me the Grand Slam is the No.1. aspiration followed by the Triple Crown (if the GS is off) but the Championship where mathematical calculations are involved is meaningless. Unbeaten is your only man. The only way Ireland can lose against Scotland is to stay in the changing room. Dan Parks is the only threat and if the game is played in the Scottish half and Ireland put in a disciplined performance it's just a matter of how big a win.

Podge_irl

Judgement Day wrote: »

but the Championship where mathematical calculations are involved is meaningless. Unbeaten is your only man.

What an utterly odd attitude.

It's called the 6N Championship...not the 6N Grand Slam or Bust.

Eoin

How could the triple crown be a better result than winning the championship on points difference? What if we were beaten, but still outright leaders? I genuinely don't understand this. The Grand Slam isn't a trophy, it's just the best way of winning the trophy.