Don't Resign Mary Harney

Tail Wagger

Well guys,

Here we are, we have two Mary Harney threads. hopefully on this one you can support her, and on the other thread you can express your annoyance about her.
Me personally I feel over the years she has done her best with the H.S.E as a minister goes. Mary Harney had her chances to bail out of Health, but she stuck by her guns to hopefully see a better Health care for our country.

Of course other people will have their own opinions and they are entitled to them, so I'm sure there is still a strong support out there for Mary Harney to stay in her post while still in office.

mikom

Villain

I hope Tail Wagger you never have to expierence the failings of our Health System, it is an awful state despite the money we have poured into on Harneys watch. FF/PD's have been in charge of our health system during a period of prosperity we may never see again yet the system fails people every day.

She knew about the Tallaght issue in December, did she ask what exactly was the problem, is there anything we can do to resolve the problem quickly etc etc. Nope instead she just accepts that and then when she hears how serious the situation is she jets off to NZ for 15 days.

Give me a break!

Scofflaw

I strongly suspect that this will, in fact, be another thread for criticising her. I'll check back to see how it goes, but we don't need two compaint threads, so if you want to complain, use the existing thread.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Tail Wagger

Scofflaw wrote: »

I strongly suspect that this will, in fact, be another thread for criticising her. I'll check back to see how it goes, but we don't need two compaint threads, so if you want to complain, use the existing thread.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Thanks Bud, I suggested that in my posting, was hoping that's what the posters would go. But there you are!lets all hang Mary!

Bottle_of_Smoke

Tail Wagger wrote: »

Well guys,

Here we are, we have two Mary Harney threads. hopefully on this one you can support her, and on the other thread you can express your annoyance about her.
Me personally I feel over the years she has done her best with the H.S.E as a minister goes. Mary Harney had her chances to bail out of Health, but she stuck by her guns to hopefully see a better Health care for our country.

Of course other people will have their own opinions and they are entitled to them, so I'm sure there is still a strong support out there for Mary Harney to stay in her post while still in office.

Done her best is a term you use to describe a 5 year old on her first school sports day. It is not a term one would use to descrive the actions of a politicain. Yet it is one often used when someone is defending Harney. I reckon if she wasn't so overweight people wouldn't have so much sympathy for her and she'd be long gone.

So instead of saying "done her best" - why don't you list all the things she's done that make her a good health minister?

Laminations

Hmmm, the minister who created the HSE and now uses it to distance herself from responsibity for her portfolio. So many scandals, so little progress. And you want us to say nice things about her in this thread? Hmmm.

...well i suppose she has nice hair?

Darsad

Laminations wrote: »

...well i suppose she has nice hair?

Yeah Paid for by the tax payer !

Laminations

I know Scofflaw has warned about 'using' this thread to criticise Mary Harney but the mods need to be careful about the types of threads they allow. This thread was set up as an alternative to the other one. But if the OP of this thread had a beef with the other threads thrust then they should have defended the minister there. Allowing people to start mutually exclusive threads stifles debate. If everyone is on here congratulating and supporting her while the other thread has people criticizing her you end up with two threads in which everyone is in agreement. The OP of this thread should have brought his words of support to the other thread where he could be debated because it seems this way we are effectively muzzled from disagreeing with him here.

Laminations

Darsad wrote: »

Yeah Paid for by the tax payer !

Yep that was my point there, no need to say it out loud

j1974

Tail Wagger wrote: »

Well guys,

Here we are, we have two Mary Harney threads. hopefully on this one you can support her, and on the other thread you can express your annoyance about her.
Me personally I feel over the years she has done her best with the H.S.E as a minister goes. Mary Harney had her chances to bail out of Health, but she stuck by her guns to hopefully see a better Health care for our country.

Of course other people will have their own opinions and they are entitled to them, so I'm sure there is still a strong support out there for Mary Harney to stay in her post while still in office.

spoken like a true fianna fail Mooney!! perhaps you should write and ask her to include you in her next salon day, a 410.00 Euro haircut, lets hope they throw you a free labotomy!!!

walshb

Both threads can coexist with opposing views, or simply merge them both.
I don't see how either thread should only be allowed a pro OR an anti Harney
view.

The OP posted his thread in support, and it's up to individual posters who want to post on the thread to make their mind up whether or not they agree of disagree, and possibly give reasons and thoughts

sirromo

There's no denying that our health system has improved greatly during Mary Harney's tenure as minister for health. The most recent Euro Health Index shows that Ireland's health ranking has jumped from being the second worst out of 29 countries in 2006 to being 13th out of 33 countries in 2009.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0928/health.html

The country's health service has moved up 15 places in the Euro Health Consumer Index since the HSE's health transformation programme started in 2006.

In 2006, Ireland's health service was ranked 28th out of 29 European countries surveyed.

Ireland is ranked 13th out of 33 European health services in the Euro Health Consumer Index Report published today.

The Netherlands tops the index with 875 of a possible 1,000 points. Ireland scored 701 points.

The report points out that the Irish health service has been steadily climbing in the EHCI and that 'the creation of the Health Service Executive was obviously a much-needed reform'.

rightwingdub

Harney should stay on in health, I also believe that the health service should be privatised, government shouldn't be in the business of running business.

Biggins

rightwingdub wrote: »

Harney should stay on in health, I also believe that the health service should be privatised, government shouldn't be in the business of running business.

Health shouldn't be seen as a business in the first place.
Its a basic service to the public.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

bette

sirromo wrote: »

There's no denying that our health system has improved greatly during Mary Harney's tenure as minister for health. The most recent Euro Health Index shows that Ireland's health ranking has jumped from being the second worst out of 29 countries in 2006 to being 13th out of 33 countries in 2009.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0928/health.html

Surely 15th is not a great ranking. We should be aiming for the top of the table.

Also important to say; those tables are contrived with massaged statistics and seldom compare like with like.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

conorhal

Meh* Why not, I'm game for a laugh.

In truth there are many people whose heads should roll before Harney's, from the indolent staff that stuff letters into a desk drawer, to their management that managed to somehow miss this.

Anybody with a passing acquaintance with the health(don't)care system knows what Harney faces.
In the real world the formation of the HSE should have been quickly followed by about twenty thousand redundancies. But the cozy nature of social partnership and the close relationship during the boom years between the unions and FF meant that no serious reform would ever take place, thus completely undermining the formation of the HSE and leading to the bureaucratic nightmare that exists today with it's 9-5 consultants and archaic work practices on which unions have, to the complete determent of the public's welfare, refused to budge. This means that a nurse can't be asked to go down the hall to an understaffed ward from their empty one, no, a temp must be called in.
The truth is I pity anybody that is tasked with reforming the healthcare system, a job for which they have been handed rock hammer, when what it needs an axe. Harney is doing the best job that anybody could in the face of emence resistance to change and I'm looking forward to see how the oposition handle the task.

bette

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Those statistics are not gospel. You do know how statistics work I presume! Like the wonderful Humpty Dumpty conversation with Alice!

When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less

What I expect is something that gives value for the copious amounts the HSE were dealing with. Now that's simple enough.

danman

I echo Donegalfellas sentiments.

Health is the worst portfolio in government.

As a sufferer of a chronic illness, who requires constant medical superrvision, my care has vastly improved over the past 10 years.
I wouldn't want to go back to the type of care I used to receive.

Over 4 million people use our national health service. No one system is perfect.

I had to go to A&E a few weeks ago. I knew what I needed, I've been down the same road many times. I need IV fluids because I was dehydrated.

I arrived, and within 45 mins, I had the canula/needle in my arm.
All they had to do was connect me up to the drip.

6 hours later, my wife stormed into the medical area to find out what the problem was. She asked the nurse why I was left waiting so long and could I not just get the drip and sit in the waiting area.

The reply she got was.... "Thats a good idea"

I ended up being admitted for 3 days. If I'd had the drip at the start, I could have gone home.

Was this Harney's fault?

Or was it an individual in the hospital?

It's very easy to have a central hate figure. When individual incompatence is to blame in many cases.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Anonymous1987

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

UK
Life expectancy at birth m/f (years): 77/81
Healthy life expectancy at birth m/f (years, 2003): 69/72
Probability of dying under five (per 1 000 live births): 6
Probability of dying between 15 and 60 years m/f (per 1 000 population): 98/61
Total expenditure on health as % of GDP (2006): 8.4

US
Life expectancy at birth m/f (years): 75/80
Healthy life expectancy at birth m/f (years, 2003): 67/71
Probability of dying under five (per 1 000 live births): 8
Probability of dying between 15 and 60 years m/f (per 1 000 population): 137/80
Total expenditure on health as % of GDP (2006): 15.3

How do you explain the figures above then?

I should also add Ireland for discussion.

Life expectancy at birth m/f (years): 77/82
Healthy life expectancy at birth m/f (years, 2003): 68/72
Probability of dying under five (per 1 000 live births): 4
Probability of dying between 15 and 60 years m/f (per 1 000 population): 88/56
Total expenditure on health as % of GDP (2006): 7.5

anymore

Tail Wagger wrote: »

Well guys,

Here we are, we have two Mary Harney threads. hopefully on this one you can support her, and on the other thread you can express your annoyance about her.
Me personally I feel over the years she has done her best with the H.S.E as a minister goes. Mary Harney had her chances to bail out of Health, but she stuck by her guns to hopefully see a better Health care for our country.

Of course other people will have their own opinions and they are entitled to them, so I'm sure there is still a strong support out there for Mary Harney to stay in her post while still in office.

Do you mean stay in her post while in office or while in New Zealand for a fortnight ?
There is a wonderful picture of Harney on page 9 of the Ir Indo taday. Harney has picked put some little gift item from a stall at some fair and and her aide is pictured handing over the money. I can understand Queen Lizzy Windsor, who is 80, having an aide take care of the menial detials such as handling cash, but an Irish Minster who not too long ago was berating us for not knowing the price of a pint of milk and who now needs a highly paid civil servant to act as her cashier !
Please someone tell Harney Ireland is, at least nominally, a Republic !

anymore

Tail Wagger wrote: »

Well guys,

Here we are, we have two Mary Harney threads. hopefully on this one you can support her, and on the other thread you can express your annoyance about her.
Me personally I feel over the years she has done her best with the H.S.E as a minister goes. Mary Harney had her chances to bail out of Health, but she stuck by her guns to hopefully see a better Health care for our country.

Of course other people will have their own opinions and they are entitled to them, so I'm sure there is still a strong support out there for Mary Harney to stay in her post while still in office.

Do you mean stay in her post while in office or while in New Zealand for a fortnight ?
There is a wonderful picture of Harney on page 9 of the Ir Indo taday. Harney has picked put some little gift item from a stall at some fair and and her aide is pictured handing over the money. I can understand Queen Lizzy Windsor, who is 80, having an aide take care of the menial detials such as handling cash, but an Irish Minster who not too long ago was berating us for not knowing the price of a pint of milk and who now needs a highly paid civil servant to act as her cashier !
0Please someone tell Harney Ireland is, at least nominally, a Republic !

bette

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Statistics reflect what you want them to reflect. That does not in anyway presuppose reality! That you surely learned in your post grad course.

Why should I direct ire which I haven't displayed at unions or anyone else? The great Irish blame game is what our rickety institutions run best on. That is why we are are 15th in a statistical fable of a health survey.

The ultimate responsibility is on the ministers head! That is why they are overpaid for their gross incompetence!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

dan_d

Personally, I think every single board member and management member that even touched the radiology dept in tallaght hospital in the period of time that those X-rays are dated should be f%*ked out the door. With the consultants close behind them.

How dare they even show their faces there??

As for Harney - the only thing she's guilty of here is enabling them in cock ups like this by allowing them to remain in their positions. It's not her head we should be after. The number of vested interest groups in there is beyond belief.

Of course, this is all wishful thinking on my part "sigh"!

walshb

Biggins wrote: »

Health shouldn't be seen as a business in the first place.
Its a basic service to the public.

But, it should be run in a business like fashion with a bit of ruthlessness and efficiency about it. If it were a business it would be dead now, that is the problem.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Scofflaw

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Actually, it looks more like it has some nice clichés. There are, unfortunately, simple and ineluctable market reasons why privatised individual health care costs more than universal public health care.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Biggins

walshb wrote: »

But, it should be run in a business like fashion with a bit of ruthlessness and efficiency about it. If it were a business it would be dead now, that is the problem.

I agree 100% in your idea that it should be streamlined like a business - if all business were just as streamlined anyway effectively.
So should every department/service under the governments remit.
Sadly the heads in the sections previously clearly thought it was just a free for all in some cases and got the checkbooks out for concerts, games and expensive directorship lunches. In the meanwhile the paperwork got bulkier, the bureaucracy got huge and we seem to have got lost between the many departments, sub-departments and sections that is a nightmare now to sort through to actually find out who is responsible for what!

Overheal

Neither a Universal or Private option is flawless. Its easy to say they both have deep flaws. Who can say what the Market Value of a Kidney Transplant is? How do you stop the Socialised Emergency Rooms from overfilling? Etc.

Anyway I don't think thats for this thread. Its about how well or poorly the Minister is doing her job. But something is wrong when tens of thousands of X-Rays go misdiagnosed.

rightwingdub

Overheal wrote: »

Neither a Universal or Private option is flawless. Its easy to say they both have deep flaws. Who can say what the Market Value of a Kidney Transplant is? How do you stop the Socialised Emergency Rooms from overfilling? Etc.

Anyway I don't think thats for this thread. Its about how well or poorly the Minister is doing her job. But something is wrong when tens of thousands of X-Rays go misdiagnosed.

Its hardly Harney's fault that some staff and management at Tallaght Hospital are completely incompetent.

Essexboy

rightwingdub wrote: »

Its hardly Harney's fault that some staff and management at Tallaght Hospital are completely incompetent.

She has abdicated all sense of overall responsibility for one of the state’s most fundamental duties, the protection of its children.

Overheal

rightwingdub wrote: »

Its hardly Harney's fault that some staff and management at Tallaght Hospital are completely incompetent.

To an extent: she is.

Tail Wagger

People have short memories, I can remember back in the days of Micheal Martin as Minister of Health. He practically threw the position back at Bertie in 2004, When he was bringing in the smoking ban and every smoker in the Country was up in arms against him. Who stepped up to the forum, Mary Harney
Took on the poison chalice of Minister for Health and Children that no one in the Government wanted.

She took on the Consultants and all the top dogs in the H.S.E, but the H.S.E is like every other public service in this country. There are people there since Lord Lucan and Shergar went missing, and because of the system that was built into these Public Departments, they are built with back scratchers and friends of friends. Long before most of us were around these positions in the likes of the H.S.E will not be changed from the top up, at least until most of these people retire and as said many times before privatised and run like a business.

We can't all just jump on the bandwagon and call for Mary Harney's head because people in Tallaght Hospital are not doing their job's properly and they may also be short of specialised staff to carry out these prosegers. do you think if Mary Harney looses her Ministerial post tomorrow that the Health Service will change over night.

People in this Country can be blind when they want to be, as they follow eachother like sheep. A few big names in the media start shouting resign and they are sure to be followed by the same sheep who shout for everyones resignation. don't worry Mis Harney will go in time, but in her own time, she is a good and honorable Minister and she gives more to her position than most others do. When she doe's go of her own call who then will want to take on this poison chalice, you?

anymore

Tail Wagger wrote: »

People have short memories, I can remember back in the days of Micheal Martin as Minister of Health. He practically threw the position back at Bertie in 2004, When he was bringing in the smoking ban and every smoker in the Country was up in arms against him. Who stepped up to the forum, Mary Harney
Took on the poison chalice of Minister for Health and Children that no one in the Government wanted.

She took on the Consultants and all the top dogs in the H.S.E, but the H.S.E is like every other public service in this country. There are people there since Lord Lucan and Shergar went missing, and because of the system that was built into these Public Departments, they are built with back scratchers and friends of friends. Long before most of us were around these positions in the likes of the H.S.E will not be changed from the top up, at least until most of these people retire and as said many times before privatised and run like a business.

We can't all just jump on the bandwagon and call for Mary Harney's head because people in Tallaght Hospital are not doing their job's properly and they may also be short of specialised staff to carry out these prosegers. do you think if Mary Harney looses her Ministerial post tomorrow that the Health Service will change over night.

People in this Country can be blind when they want to be, as they follow eachother like sheep. A few big names in the media start shouting resign and they are sure to be followed by the same sheep who shout for everyones resignation. don't worry Mis Harney will go in time, but in her own time, she is a good and honorable Minister and she gives more to her position than most others do. When she doe's go of her own call who then will want to take on this poison chalice, you?

It was martin who brought in the smoking ban, a very significant health measure. It was Harney who gave us the most overpriced consultants in Europe which is why the health service cant afford more specialists.
And now she intorduced the two week overseas holiday for the Health Minister and her husband, who was formerly appoinited as head of FAs by the Minster who would marry him !

Tail Wagger

anymore wrote: »

It was martin who brought in the smoking ban, a very significant health measure. It was Harney who gave us the most overpriced consultants in Europe which is why the health service cant afford more specialists.
And now she intorduced the two week overseas holiday for the Health Minister and her husband, who was formerly appoinited as head of FAs by the Minster who would marry him !

It all went with the Celtic Tiger as regards Consultants fees. Mary Harney put the very best Consultants there for you and for me. She reduced their wages and left them with contracts to be signed or else, these Consultants and Doctors left the contracts unsigned for nearly two years. Ok in the end some of them resigned but most of them in the end took her offer and signed up, thats good business for Mis Harney, as I said earlier she stood up to them when it mattered....

All Irish Citizens are crying out for is a good health service. We might get that some day, but we'll all look back and thank Mary Harney for her input.
Now you want to crib on a Thread about a hair do and a trip to Newzeland.

It still doesn't give good enough reason for her to resign. Look we all have gripes about government Ministers and about their trips to foreign Country's. Would you feel better if we were informed every month where and why these Ministers go to foreign Country's.Then get involved write to the Government office and demand these appointment files, then you can have a good old crib....

Elevator

Tail Wagger wrote: »

Well guys,

Here we are, we have two Mary Harney threads. hopefully on this one you can support her, and on the other thread you can express your annoyance about her.
Me personally I feel over the years she has done her best with the H.S.E as a minister goes. Mary Harney had her chances to bail out of Health, but she stuck by her guns to hopefully see a better Health care for our country.

Of course other people will have their own opinions and they are entitled to them, so I'm sure there is still a strong support out there for Mary Harney to stay in her post while still in office.

gtf

jennyjest

Tail Wagger wrote: »

It all went with the Celtic Tiger as regards Consultants fees. Mary Harney put the very best Consultants there for you and for me. She reduced their wages and left them with contracts to be signed or else, these Consultants and Doctors left the contracts unsigned for nearly two years. Ok in the end some of them resigned but most of them in the end took her offer and signed up, thats good business for Mis Harney, as I said earlier she stood up to them when it mattered....

All Irish Citizens are crying out for is a good health service. We might get that some day, but we'll all look back and thank Mary Harney for her input.
Now you want to crib on a Thread about a hair do and a trip to Newzeland.

It still doesn't give good enough reason for her to resign. Look we all have gripes about government Ministers and about their trips to foreign Country's. Would you feel better if we were informed every month where and why these Ministers go to foreign Country's.Then get involved write to the Government office and demand these appointment files, then you can have a good old crib....

Bull ! The quality of consultants now is the same as the quality ten years ago only the price has gone way up....:

danman

Elevator wrote: »

gtf

Thanks for your contribution to the debate

Traumadoc

Tail Wagger wrote: »

It all went with the Celtic Tiger as regards Consultants fees. Mary Harney put the very best Consultants there for you and for me. She reduced their wages and left them with contracts to be signed or else, these Consultants and Doctors left the contracts unsigned for nearly two years. Ok in the end some of them resigned but most of them in the end took her offer and signed up, thats good business for Mis Harney, as I said earlier she stood up to them when it mattered....

..

This is all news to me . This is all complete rubbish. Get your facts correct.:rolleyes:

Tail Wagger

jennyjest wrote: »

Bull ! The quality of consultants now is the same as the quality ten years ago only the price has gone way up....:

Sure any old fool would tell you the quality in our Hospital Consultants is defiantly gone up. It's the amount of people who are living longer and their illnesses that are exhausting the Health Services recourses .

Tail Wagger

Traumadoc wrote: »

This is all news to me . This is all complete rubbish. Get your facts correct.:rolleyes:

Well you tell us your version of the situation.

jennyjest

Tail Wagger wrote: »

Sure any old fool would tell you the quality in our Hospital Consultants is defiantly gone up. It's the amount of people who are living longer and their illnesses that are exhausting the Health Services recourses .

Yes I am sure any old fool would say that !

Tail Wagger

jennyjest wrote: »

Yes I am sure any old fool would say that !

Well maybe your not old! but you still qualify to be a fool?

Traumadoc

Tail Wagger wrote: »

Well maybe your not old! but you still qualify to be a fool?

To paraphrase Mark Twain :better to have the world think you are a fool than to post here and remove all doubt.

mail4liam

Traumadoc wrote: »

To paraphrase Mark Twain :better to have the world think you are a fool than to post here and remove all doubt.

Isn't it great how some people just can't miss an opportunity to take a personal swipe at someone, then kill off the thread?
but in the end Mary is still there?

p

Traumadoc wrote: »

To paraphrase Mark Twain :better to have the world think you are a fool than to post here and remove all doubt.

Funny, that's actually how I feel about your post.

The original poster actually asked for your experience and knowledge on the subject after an initial useless jibe from you, and this is your response!

In my experience, it's usually the people who are most informed on issues, who are the most interested in listening other people's points of view.

Traumadoc

Sorry about that.