Pondering Donncha O'Callaghan

Superbus

Alright. I get that this is my first post, and that I may very well be eaten alive by all you experienced posters. I also understand that there are many who are big fans of the Munster second row, but for those of you who are, please do not see the following as a slight against him. These are simply my thoughts on a player who I, possibly mistakenly, believe to have an unfair guaranteed starting place for the Irish team.

First of all, I do not completely grasp what he does during a match. Now, bear in mind that I once played rugby to a ridiculously low level, but even then I was a back, and I was 13. So the majority of the work by the forwards tends to pass over my head while I watch a match. However, I usually do notice when a player does something significant, even when it is deep in a ruck or a scrum. My problem with Donncha O'Callaghan is that in the five or six years he's been a regular international rugby player, I do not remember one occasion in which he did anything memorable in a match. In fairness to him, he definitely has, but nothing that sticks in the memory. I also seem to remember that he was picked over Cullen for the England match because he's better in the loose - how? Cullen is admittedly poor in this regard, but at least in my opinion O'Callaghan is equally lumbering.

He has been playing alongside O'Connell for his whole career - granted, O'Connell is a very good player, but in all that time has O'Callaghan once overshadowed him a match? He probably has actually, but it happens so rarely it's nearly irrelevant.

In conclusion, it is true that for most of the time he's been around he has been probably the only real option at hand for the place alongside O'Connell, since EOS disregarded Casey and Cullen who were playing in England. However, now that Cullen's well in in the squad and played well when O'Callaghan was injured, Kidney seems less averse to picking England based players, and there are the likes of Toner playing well for the provinces, should O'Callaghan's place be as guaranteed?

As I indicated, this is all purely my opinion, and I know many will disagree, but it should hopefully provoke some debate.

sickpuppy

Its very close between o callaghan and Cullen now both good players.
second rows do lots of donkey work driving in scrums

clearing rucks, mauls, tackling the fringes of rucks and of course lineouts.

Your not going to see second rows running in 50 yard trys.

Second rows burst there bollix especially in tight exchanges there using every bit of stregth in every scrum and its energy sapping.

Devon Toner isa good prospect but not international standard yet and O callagahan didnt get 60 caps by being ponderous your post is a bit daft me thinks

Superbus

sickpuppy wrote: »

Its very close between o callaghan and Cullen now both good players.
second rows do lots of donkey work driving in scrums

clearing rucks, mauls, tackling the fringes of rucks and of course lineouts.

Your not going to see second rows running in 50 yard trys.

Second rows burst there bollix especially in tight exchanges there using every bit of stregth in every scrum and its energy sapping.

Devon Toner isa good prospect but not international standard yet and O callagahan didnt get 60 caps by being ponderous your post is a bit daft me thinks

Your points are fair. However, I was not calling O'Callaghan ponderous, I'm the one pondering his right to be in the Ireland team.

durkadurka

Well cullen's been captain of leinster for a couple of years so hes not based in England but lets not split hairs...
personally i prefer cullen. But the area where cullen is better is lineout and that's the one area where a second rower is most visible.

Benny Cake

Superbus wrote: »

My problem with Donncha O'Callaghan is that in the five or six years he's been a regular international rugby player, I do not remember one occasion in which he did anything memorable in a match.

Clearly you don't watch much rugby.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCOx24TsBPI

Superbus

D_Red_Army wrote: »

Clearly you don't watch much rugby.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCOx24TsBPI

I thought of that, I'm sure that standing on a pitch with no shorts on was very productive for him and the team. Helped gain some hard yards I'm sure.

flutered

my 2 cents, he is o connells right hand man, aka enforcer,

Ian_K

flutered wrote: »

my 2 cents, he is o connells right hand man, aka enforcer,

He's the Botha to O'Connell's Matfield

durkadurka

In fairness hes the only player who walked back into the team this year after injury, kearney didnt, sexton didnt. So there is a valid question being asked.

Judgement Day

While searching for a good video of DOC scoring a try I found this and couldn't resist posting!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFJX3JbO3vU

phog

Listening to Newstalk in the last few weeks, I think it was Gerry Thornley that said the according to Mike McGurn Donncha's stats at the breakdown were the best of all the Irish squad, I suppose that might put him ahead of the others when it comes to picking the team. Also, the experience he has got from the Lions Tours.

bonnieprince

in a previous life i played underage and colleges rugby as a second row and it is a thankless job, no one ever sees the pulling, dragging and tackling that goes on in the front five. Most of the power in the scrum is from the front and second row. I also managed to knee myself in the face when we got pushed back in a scrum in one game. The dangers of second row play. I played second row for about 6-7 years and never scored a try although i came very close once!
much preferred the back row, all the glory and none of the graft!!!:D

profitius

I'm with Superbus on this. DOC is a good player but lacks a bit of bulk and power to be considered international class. I wouldn't compare him with Botha.

phog

profitius wrote: »

I'm with Superbus on this. DOC is a good player but lacks a bit of bulk and power to be considered international class. I wouldn't compare him with Botha.

How he making so many interantional games so and two Lions Tours?

Dave Joyce

granted, O'Connell is a very good player

And what IN YOUR OPINION makes O'Connell a very good player if you can't see the work rate of DOC??

Superbus

Dave Joyce wrote: »

And what IN YOUR OPINION makes O'Connell a very good player if you can't see the work rate of DOC??

Good question. He's probably just a lot more obvious about his work rate, i.e. it manifests itself in forcing turnovers and the like rather than just being at the bottom of a ruck securing possession which seems to me to be where O'Callaghan spends most of his life. Granted, that work has to be done, but my point is that he's not that astoundingly good at it that his place should be completely guaranteed.

profitius

phog wrote: »

How he making so many interantional games so and two Lions Tours?

Sorry, I ment world class.

gcgirl

Judgement Day wrote: »

While searching for a good video of DOC scoring a try I found this and couldn't resist posting!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFJX3JbO3vU

possible one of the gammiest trys ever!!:D

durkadurka

gcgirl wrote: »

possible one of the gammiest trys ever!!:D

I love the bull but that was seriously jammy and borderline offside!!!

phog

profitius wrote: »

Sorry, I ment world class.

Are any of the people he is keeping out of the team or squad World Class?

lawrencesummers

its hard to see how much work players do as so much is happening, best thing to do is tape the game and watch it paying particular attention to DOC and not the ball, follow him and see what he does.

chupacabra

DOC is one of the most underrated players to pull on an Ireland shirt. It all comes from the fact that he is playing along side the big man and is thus the lesser talked about of the 2 second rows.

You have to look at him as part of a second row partnership, kind of the way Botha is with Matfield. DOC does a lot of unseen work at the breakdown and carries an awful lot of ball as well. He is almost always our man at the front of the lineout and is so reliable whenever we come under pressure in those situations. His worth is immeasurable for both club and country in my opinion and i'm not just saying this as a Munster fan. I would love to see a DOC, Cullen partnership for Ireland someday.

Also welcome to the rugby forum, we're a good bunch once you get to know us.

anonymous_joe

bonnieprince wrote: »

in a previous life i played underage and colleges rugby as a second row and it is a thankless job, no one ever sees the pulling, dragging and tackling that goes on in the front five. Most of the power in the scrum is from the front and second row. I also managed to knee myself in the face when we got pushed back in a scrum in one game. The dangers of second row play. I played second row for about 6-7 years and never scored a try although i came very close once!
much preferred the back row, all the glory and none of the graft!!!:D

If I ever start playing again, I will make sure I never go back into the second row.

It's bloody exhausting and equally, as you pointed out, thankless.

irishbucsfan

bonnieprince wrote: »

much preferred the back row, all the glory and none of the graft!!!:D

How dare you...

It's really, really tough to tell if a 2nd row is pulling their weight unless you're down on the field playing with or against them. I'm perfectly happy to have DOC in the team if the staff believe he's the better option. (Especially if it keeps Cullen fresh for Leinster :cool: )

damnyanks

It's true you don't notice him much for Ireland and maybe even Munster.

A thing I always found to be a good indication was his performance for the lions (past two tours).

flutered

flutered wrote: »

my 2 cents, he is o connells right hand man, aka enforcer,

Well if thats the case he is a pretty useless enforcer.He isnt tough and is a penalty machine if anything.
Im still a big fan of Casey,if you are talking enforcer he is an absolutely huge man and can be an enforcer.

If you honestly asked me what pair I would like to see its Casey and Poc.You just know all he needs is one damn game and it would change Kidneys mind,but for whatever reason he wont pick him.

Hopefully Leinster buy him back this summer and maybe that will change.

Cullen should have got the nod on form but he plays for the wrong provincial team.

buck65

Ah come on Goose, you can't accuse Kidney of being Munster biased still? If that was the case Sexton would have been subbed after 60 minutes on Saturday.

O Callaghan is as big as O Connell and as proven is no more a penalty machine than Cullen, this is a misconception here that is pedalled out. I can't believe after such a complete eclipsing of the Welsh pack that this nonsense is still being rolled out.

Co45

buck65 wrote: »

Ah come on Goose, you can't accuse Kidney of being Munster biased still? If that was the case Sexton would have been subbed after 60 minutes on Saturday.

O Callaghan is as big as O Connell and as proven is no more a penalty machine than Cullen, this is a misconception here that is pedalled out. I can't believe after such a complete eclipsing of the Welsh pack that this nonsense is still being rolled out.

I dont think he was saying that Kidney was Munster biased I think he was saying that Cullen doesnt play with O'Connell at Munster week on week out like O'Callaghan does so Kidney seems to side with O'Callaghan.
My 2c is Cullen is currently in far better form and it was very unfair he was dropped. He was our stand out player in the 2 opening games and was then dropped straight away for O'Callaghan.

andrewdcs

He's been superb this year since getting back, Kidney is too canny to switch hit (if you like) players, Cullen was benched cos DOC was performing better.

Agree tho, for 2nd row it's hard to pick their "best bits".

Munster Leinster game on good friday could be interesting, sadly though I think it'll largely be second string teams.

lawrencesummers

bob casey wouldnt get a start with the leinster team, let alone the munster team, he might just be good enough for the ireland A's, and is nowhere near the quality needed for international rugby

irishbucsfan

Cecelia Some Fig wrote: »

If you honestly asked me what pair I would like to see its Casey and Poc.You just know all he needs is one damn game and it would change Kidneys mind,but for whatever reason he wont pick him.

Casey's work rate is really dropping off and he's never been fast enough for international rugby. He's not in the same class as Cullen or DOC. Maybe in his prime he was good enough, but now he's just not good enough. Apart from his size he would offer nothing to this Irish team.

sting60

The most over rated in world rugby is Mr fake tan O Callaghan.As everybody now realises Kidney is building for now and when we reach the World cup the same fake tanners will all be there.The French are leagues above the rest of the rubbish in the northern hemisphere.The Triple crown is dead in the water and has been for quite awhile.We have been murdered for possession in the last two matches against very poor sides,what will happen against southern sides that can use the ball??England are a lower price for World Cup than Ireland, reason is England will have a new manager where we will be stuck with Kidney.that assessment was given to me after match last sat from professional odds compiler.

buck65

Is that you again Paulie?

buck65

buck65 wrote: »

Ah come on Goose, you can't accuse Kidney of being Munster biased still? If that was the case Sexton would have been subbed after 60 minutes on Saturday.

O Callaghan is as big as O Connell and as proven is no more a penalty machine than Cullen, this is a misconception here that is pedalled out. I can't believe after such a complete eclipsing of the Welsh pack that this nonsense is still being rolled out.

Im saying he suffers from not playing week in and out,not Leinster bias.
I dont think Sextons not being hauled off had much to do with provincial anything,if we had not been so comfortable on the scoreboard Kidney would have been dead right to haul him off.

I just mean we are lacking a really big man in the second row.

You look at Mod,Doc,Poc,Cullen and they all hover arond 111,112,113 kg's.None stand out as particularily big men.

Then you look at Casey,the guy is 123kg's.

He is roughly the same height as the others and over 2 stone heavier,he is a genuinely big man and the he adds something seriously different,I cant believe they are not even trying him out.

Look what shaw gave the Lions?
The benefit of a giant in the pack is not to be sniffed at.

Eeven if they refuse to play Cullen,they should have Big Bob on the bench,he would cause Havoc with 15 to go.

Co45

sting60 wrote: »

The most over rated in world rugby is Mr fake tan O Callaghan.As everybody now realises Kidney is building for now and when we reach the World cup the same fake tanners will all be there.The French are leagues above the rest of the rubbish in the northern hemisphere.The Triple crown is dead in the water and has been for quite awhile.We have been murdered for possession in the last two matches against very poor sides,what will happen against southern sides that can use the ball??England are a lower price for World Cup than Ireland, reason is England will have a new manager where we will be stuck with Kidney.that assessment was given to me after match last sat from professional odds compiler.

I've always thought he wore fake tan! :P
Back on topic. You do have a valid point. Kidney's tactics seem to work against NH opposition but against teams like New Zealand I don't know if kicking the ball away will be the best approach at all.

almighty1

Cecelia Some Fig wrote: »

You look at Mod,Doc,Poc,Cullen and they all hover arond 111,112,113 kg's.None stand out as particularily big men.

Then you look at Casey,the guy is 123kg's.

Yeah an extra 10kgs for props to lift at lineout time? One to One with DOC?

Lineout - Casey marginally better
Scrumtime - Id give Casey the nod
In the loose - 50/50
Infringements - Maybe Casey again but DOC has improved.

I can see why you would want Casey but really there isnt a hope in hell of DK picking him while he is in England.

almighty1

sting60 wrote: »

The most over rated in world rugby is Mr fake tan O Callaghan.As everybody now realises Kidney is building for now and when we reach the World cup the same fake tanners will all be there.The French are leagues above the rest of the rubbish in the northern hemisphere.The Triple crown is dead in the water and has been for quite awhile.We have been murdered for possession in the last two matches against very poor sides,what will happen against southern sides that can use the ball??England are a lower price for World Cup than Ireland, reason is England will have a new manager where we will be stuck with Kidney.that assessment was given to me after match last sat from professional odds compiler.

Wow what an incredibly negative post. I cant see how/why fake tan users will have any impact on their rugby. England were WC finalists just 3 years ago and admittedly are very poor, they will still serve up stiff competition to any side in the world.

Triple crown....dead in the water? Sorry you've lost me buddy.

flutered

Cecelia Some Fig wrote: »

Well if thats the case he is a pretty useless enforcer.He isnt tough and is a penalty machine if anything.
Im still a big fan of Casey,if you are talking enforcer he is an absolutely huge man and can be an enforcer.

If you honestly asked me what pair I would like to see its Casey and Poc.You just know all he needs is one damn game and it would change Kidneys mind,but for whatever reason he wont pick him.

Hopefully Leinster buy him back this summer and maybe that will change.

Cullen should have got the nod on form but he plays for the wrong provincial team.

last year against england in croke park, an english player came in late on ogara, who has the first irish guy to to show him the error of his ways, look up the tape.

flutered

?England are a lower price for World Cup than Ireland, reason is England will have a new manager where we will be stuck with Kidney.that assessment was given to me after match last sat from professional odds compiler.[/QUOTE]

professional odds compilers go on hard facts, stats, england have won the world cup, they reached the simi final last time, irelands record in the w.c. is dismal, b.t.w. i spent almost 30 years of my life working in the bookmaker game. the day a bookie listens to his heart is the first day on his journey to becoming bankrupt.

Bugnug

I have to say I was a little bit mistified when Cullen was dropped for the England game but having watched DOC in the last two matches espically against that mammoth english pack he really showed his worth. He is that bit more aggressive and faster to the breakdown than Cullen and his counter rucking is superb. He is leagues ahead of Casey and after the last two games he is definitely ahead of Cullen. I just dont think Cullen or Casey would have done as much damage to the English or Welsh forwards as DOC.

flutered

flutered wrote: »

last year against england in croke park, an english player came in late on ogara, who has the first irish guy to to show him the error of his ways, look up the tape.

Im aware of that,I dont need to see the tape.The guy is a scary as a pineapple and too easy to wind up.
If you think he is an enforcer you are blind.
Nathan Hines is an enforcer,see if Doc would pick on him against scotland,he would be broken in half,gues what Hines is around 120kg's similar to casey,you need big animals to be good enforcers.

Casey has a nice level off agression but his sheer size means he is a better enforcer than Doc.

thomond2006

sting60 wrote: »

The most over rated in world rugby is Mr fake tan O Callaghan.As everybody now realises Kidney is building for now and when we reach the World cup the same fake tanners will all be there.The French are leagues above the rest of the rubbish in the northern hemisphere.The Triple crown is dead in the water and has been for quite awhile.We have been murdered for possession in the last two matches against very poor sides,what will happen against southern sides that can use the ball??England are a lower price for World Cup than Ireland, reason is England will have a new manager where we will be stuck with Kidney.that assessment was given to me after match last sat from professional odds compiler.

I didn't know Stephen Jones posted here.

Keep up the good work Sir.

flutered

Cecelia Some Fig wrote: »

Im aware of that,I dont need to see the tape.The guy is a scary as a pineapple and too easy to wind up.
If you think he is an enforcer you are blind.
Nathan Hines is an enforcer,see if Doc would pick on him against scotland,he would be broken in half,gues what Hines is around 120kg's similar to casey,you need big animals to be good enforcers.

Casey has a nice level off agression but his sheer size means he is a better enforcer than Doc.

one does not have to be huge for that job, just good at it, the old saying size does not really matter comes to mind.

phog

Cecelia Some Fig wrote: »

Im aware of that,I dont need to see the tape.The guy is a scary as a pineapple and too easy to wind up.
If you think he is an enforcer you are blind.
Nathan Hines is an enforcer,see if Doc would pick on him against scotland,he would be broken in half,gues what Hines is around 120kg's similar to casey,you need big animals to be good enforcers.

Casey has a nice level off agression but his sheer size means he is a better enforcer than Doc.

I'm a bit lost here so can you describe to me in plain english what an enforcer does on the rugby field?

JustinDee

profitius wrote: »

I'm with Superbus on this. DOC is a good player but lacks a bit of bulk and power to be considered international class

???
For a start, ask the front row who scrums down in front of him. O'Callaghan is an excellent scrummager, vital in rucks and a top lineout jumper.

phog

phog wrote: »

I'm a bit lost here so can you describe to me in plain english what an enforcer does on the rugby field?

If anyone picks on a player from your team you take them up on it and if it comes to it smash them or punch them,preferably when the ref isnt looking.
Backies botha is a fine example.

The enforcers job is to keep the other team honest and basically stop any rubbish from kicking off by nipping it in the bud,if a team has a good enforcer they are unlikely to be messed with.

Doc likes to think he is Irelands enforcer but he just isnt intimidating enough and his clownish behaviour off the pitch doesnt help.

JustinDee

Cecelia Some Fig wrote: »

Im aware of that,I dont need to see the tape.The guy is a scary as a pineapple and too easy to wind up.
If you think he is an enforcer you are blind.
Nathan Hines is an enforcer,see if Doc would pick on him against scotland,he would be broken in half,gues what Hines is around 120kg's similar to casey,you need big animals to be good enforcers.

Casey has a nice level off agression but his sheer size means he is a better enforcer than Doc.

Do you get those weights off Wikipedia or something??
You will find Ireland's "enforcer" in the back row, by the way.

JustinDee

JustinDee wrote: »

Do you get those weights off Wikipedia or something??
You will find Ireland's "enforcer" in the back row, by the way.

www.irfu.ie

Its pretty easy to compare them on that site.

JustinDee

Cecelia Some Fig wrote: »

www.irfu.ie

Its pretty easy to compare them on that site.

Just asking where you got them, thats all.

For a weight comparison and to illustrate how technique is the vital factor, see Brian O'Driscoll's hit on Jamie Roberts on Saturday.

Co45

JustinDee wrote: »

Just asking where you got them, thats all.

For a weight comparison and to illustrate how technique is the vital factor, see Brian O'Driscoll's hit on Jamie Roberts on Saturday.

Which is a null point when the poster is referring to weight behind the front row.

JustinDee

Co45 wrote: »

Which is a null point when the poster is referring to weight behind the front row.

Nothing null about it. Who is the better scrummager out of O'Connell, O'Callaghan and Cullen? (you may not like the answer)