Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Yixian

Join the facebook group: College Green Plaza - Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

2016 is around the corner and civic squares aren't an uncommon way to celebrate such national centenaries. Dublin still lacks any real central square and the docklands plans for "The Parlour", a rectangular wall of shipping containers, isn't exactly going to set the city, let alone the country or world alight...

There had been talk in the last few years of pedestrianising College Green. The gov have already experimented with the bus corridor and hopefully around 2016 there will be the MN/DARTu "Dublin Metro", making it easier than ever to go ahead and transform the area around TCD and the Bank of Ireland into Ireland's national civi plaza, "on a par with the Piazza Maggiore in Bologna".

It has been proposed by TCD and Ciarán Cuffe (perhaps a candidate for the first Dublin mayor elections?).

In my opinion it's time to bring this back on the agenda, it's entirely doable, very much needed and would be a great addition to the city for 2016.





Look at the space you're working with... a plaza here would be beautiful.

MagicMarker

I like it.

Blisterman

Looks like it could work. But what happens to Dame Street? Would that be completely pedestrianised, or would the road to Westmoreland street still exist?

Spanish Eyes

I've been an advocate of this for years. What other city has such a wealth of architectural gems in one place, together with enough space to show it off?

At the moment, it is choked with traffic and the pavements are totally clogged with pedestrians in their thousands. It must be the most traffic and people choked part of the city.

What a lovely space could be created here. I just think the car lobby has too much power, and will win out. But I live in hope. Busgate is a good start.

Can we start a lobby group for this? What a great way this would be to open the city to pedestrians, and visitors, and maybe a good food market. It would add so much to the ambience of the city, and would become the focal point.

Watch out though, all those car park owners/shop owners/car drivers will have a total fit!

Yixian

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I've been an advocate of this for years. What other city has such a wealth of architectural gems in one place, together with enough space to show it off?

At the moment, it is choked with traffic and the pavements are totally clogged with pedestrians in their thousands. It must be the most traffic and people choked part of the city.

What a lovely space could be created here. I just think the car lobby has too much power, and will win out. But I live in hope. Busgate is a good start.

Can we start a lobby group for this? What a great way this would be to open the city to pedestrians, and visitors, and maybe a good food market. It would add so much to the ambience of the city, and would become the focal point.

Watch out though, all those car park owners/shop owners/car drivers will have a total fit!

There will be a Dublin Metro station on Pearse Street, via. the Trinity College biosciences building, the city will be better placed than ever to finally pedestrianise College Green.

I've made a Facebook group to support this idea: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=360647236698

What with fb groups seemingly more influential than writing to your local politician and all.

Chris_5339762

MN and the Luas linkup first, then this. Great idea I say but wait for the chaos that the shopowners would come out with.

Yixian

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

MN and the Luas linkup first, then this. Great idea I say but wait for the chaos that the shopowners would come out with.

The same shop-owners that ignore the shopfront regulations and plaster their beautiful architecture with disgusting neon logos?

Let them leave and let some nice independent cafés set up shop and use the edges of the plaza for outdoor seating! :cool:

Victor

All very good, but you would have no north-south transport routes between Christchurch and Westland Row.

D'Peoples Voice

Victor wrote: »

All very good, but you would have no north-south transport routes between Christchurch and Westland Row.

thats a good thing, it might reduce the number of cars travelling through the CENTRE of the city that don't need to be there!

Victor

I've no disagreement with that, but what about people?

Yixian

Would be so gorgeous with a large fountain+statues, lined with outdoor eating cafés in the summer. Also an ideal place for political rallies etc., as there currently is none.

There are french villages a 100th the size of Dublin with plazas, it really is a gaping hole in the city.

Once you imagine it there, you can't imagine Dublin without it.

"Pearse Street would have to become a two way system again and take over from Nassau Street as the area to get buses from. This would actually help to generate more activity on Pearse Street. It would obviously take a huge amount more than just this, but it is one of my first thoughts on it anyway."

Lauder

Yixian wrote: »

Would be so gorgeous with a large fountain+statues, lined with outdoor eating cafés in the summer. Also an ideal place for political rallies etc., as there currently is none.

There are french villages a 100th the size of Dublin with plazas, it really is a gaping hole in the city.

Once you imagine it there, you can't imagine Dublin without it.

"Pearse Street would have to become a two way system again and take over from Nassau Street as the area to get buses from. This would actually help to generate more activity on Pearse Street. It would obviously take a huge amount more than just this, but it is one of my first thoughts on it anyway."

Fantastic idea. Traffic could still be managed quite easily. Pearse St would become 2 way, as would Nassau St (both are wide with plenty of room).
Removal of no left turn at the Dawson/Nassau junction to allow traffic access Dame Street via St. Andrew St, removal of police station carpark outside Pearse St Police Station and two way flow there.

More statues and features would be required in the Green though. new plan looks a bit bland with too much paving and too little features. Perhaps a large fountain could be built. Might even be time to return the King Billy statue as a sign of how we have moved on as a nation.

G_R

Fantastic idea, I love it. It would be a great asset to the city to have a Plaza like this in the City Centre.

Yixian

Lauder wrote: »

Fantastic idea. Traffic could still be managed quite easily. Pearse St would become 2 way, as would Nassau St (both are wide with plenty of room).
Removal of no left turn at the Dawson/Nassau junction to allow traffic access Dame Street via St. Andrew St, removal of police station carpark outside Pearse St Police Station and two way flow there.

More statues and features would be required in the Green though. new plan looks a bit bland with too much paving and too little features. Perhaps a large fountain could be built. Might even be time to return the King Billy statue as a sign of how we have moved on as a nation.

I definitely think a fountain would be great, Dublin does seem to lack fountains really.

Lauder

Yixian wrote: »

I definitely think a fountain would be great, Dublin does seem to lack fountains really.

If this is something that is aimed for 2016 and the commemorations that go with such, the reinstatement of King Billy's statue would be a fine gesture to our Orange neighbours.

As a fountain would this be too ambitious, minus the clutter and pigeons of course?

Typewriter

Lauder wrote: »

If this is something that is aimed for 2016 and the commemorations that go with such, the reinstatement of King Billy's statue would be a fine gesture to our Orange neighbours.

I never knew about "King Billy's statue" until I googled it just there.

It looks well I'd be in favor of having it reinstated.

http://www.politics.ie/history/9021-king-williams-statue-dublin.html

Yixian

Lauder wrote: »

If this is something that is aimed for 2016 and the commemorations that go with such, the reinstatement of King Billy's statue would be a fine gesture to our Orange neighbours.

As a fountain would this be too ambitious, minus the clutter and pigeons of course?

http://www.bigfoto.com/europe/london/trafalgar-square-u5.jpg

The fountain alone? I don't see why not.

I'm neutral on the King Billy idea, but I think Spirit of Ireland will be a bigger pull on the North than a stature It's a nice statue though but I wouldn't want it to be the centre piece.

murphaph

It'll have to wait until the Interconector and Metro North are in place IMO but it is a fine idea that has real merit. Munich pedestrianised Marienplatz when they built their version of the Interconnector and it's hard to imagine the city without it today! This part of Dublin really is quite beautiful with fine buildings just sitting there...but you can't look up at them for fear of falling off a crowded pavement in front of a bus! Imagine being able to sit in the green witha cold drink on a hot summer's day, no traffic in sight, just some of Dublin's finest architecture.

Traffic needs to be taken out of the core of the city as far as possible. The inner and outer rings are not being utilised to their maximum as I believe the signage is inadequate and the traffic signal priorities don't make using the rings at all attractive. It should be faster to use the rings to circumvent the core of the city but often it's not!

Public transport of course is the only real solution that can deliver a real quality of life in the city. This needs a high capacity rail based spine running underground and the Interconnector will provide it (along with MN which should be connected to the green line directly eventually, no question!).

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

Yixian

"Dublin Metro" could potentially allow for not just one, but two or three squares in central Dublin.

College Green is obviously the place to start though, what better way to celebrate 2016.

Trees, water and stonework - I am sure there is no end of architects who would love to get their hands on such a space.

Thinkingaboutit

Not a wise idea until various public transport projects are finished. Knowing how this country works, they might pedestrianise it anyhow, and push the chaos on to other streets. Fountains, fountains, floozie in the Jacuzzi anyone? People in other countries are far more civic minded, and less likely to litter. I cannot imagine how much litter there will be there by tomorrow evening. Reasonable idea, if it's done along with other things. That statue was fairly ugly judging from photos I saw of it before, and it would be the first target of tokenist Republicans.

Yixian

Thinkingaboutit wrote: »

Not a wise idea until various public transport projects are finished. Know how this country works, they might pedestrianise it anyhow, and push the chaos on to other streets. Fountains, fountains, floozie in the Jacuzzi anyone? People in other countries are far more civic minded, and less likely to litter. I cannot imagine how much litter there will be there by tomorrow evening. Reasonable idea, if it's done along with other things.

This proposal suggests it be done along with, or shortly after, the opening of the underground lines - fingers crossed, by 2016.

Yixian

Over 200 members and growing pretty fast, once numbers are high enough we'll start letter petitions, mockup competitions etc.

Let's face it, unless the public really makes it's voice heard, city planning ends up as watered down mediocrity these days.

BluntGuy

I absolutely support this idea.

Not sure a facebook campaign will do much by itself though - it needs to be channelled into a more constructive outlet, as you said letter-writing, petitions etc.

I'll fire off an e-mail to them as well.

Craig Fay

Not an expert, but here's what I would propose.




Thisa still leaves College Street, Westmoreland and D'Olier Street as major bus routes. However, it would require buses that currently go south through College Green to divert down Townsend Street, towards a reversed Westland Row and on towards Merrion Square. I haven't yet worked out what route they would take going north. Maybe Sandwith Street by the Dart Underground entrance? Any suggestions?

Aard

A great idea, which I fully support.


As Craig showed above, there is also the Lucan Luas Line to take into consideration.


As for a fountain, it's not something to be done lightly. Antisocial behaviour aside, it has the potential to make or break the Square. Too big - it dominates, and doesn't allow people to congregate easily. Think the lake in UCD. Too small - it might make the Square seem less important than it actually is.

Yixian

I'm hoping to start a mockup competition on the facebook group soon, but am having trouble producing a "blank canvas" pedestrianised College Green photo with which people can play with - does anyone here have superior Photoshop skills that might be able to help with that?


As for a fountain, I think it would be disappointing not to have one, Dublin may be Statue City but there's nary a drop of running water to be found decorating public spaces. I agree that is has to be done right, and I would be very disappointed if it was too small.

A few interesting fountains to think about:







Classicalist that I am I do prefer the last.

Something minimalist like the first would probably work, but the architectural surroundings are georgian and I'd like a fountain to be too. However something like no. 2 would probably become more iconic. I can't imagine how OTT a classical fountain would have to be to become renowned lmao.

Aard

I like the first one there. I think that if there is a competition, then designers would more than likely lean towards a modern style. Kinda like the new GCD Square. This would make it less likely for an old-style fountain.

Yixian

The competition is just to generate some ideas and publicity, at the end of the day if we are successful the city would still draft in an architectural firm to design the plaza.

Aard

Sorry, I was ambiguous - I meant a hypothetical competition commissioned by they city.

Yixian

Aard wrote: »

Sorry, I was ambiguous - I meant a hypothetical competition commissioned by they city.

Ah sorry, yeah you're probably right about that..

I actually can't think of any well known architects who specialise in classical design at all.. anyone know of any?

I mean, I just don't think Hadid or Foster, as great as they are, would really suit College Green somehow. Would have been nice if they'd played a part in the docklands redevelopment though..

donvito99

I think this is a great idea. I hate they way roads in town bring the whole look of town to such a crappy level.

But I was thinking maybe more green space, rather than just a fountain and paving.

And maybe not as 'out there' as grand canal square.

Also, this is a bit OT, but maybe any future Luas developments could incorporate this into its design.





The grass looks great IMO. Gets rid of the sometimes overused grey paving. Bilbao tram.

Yixian

donvito99 wrote: »

I think this is a great idea. I hate they way roads in town bring the whole look of town to such a crappy level.

But I was thinking maybe more green space, rather than just a fountain and paving.

And maybe not as 'out there' as grand canal square.

Also, this is a bit OT, but maybe any future Luas developments could incorporate this into its design.





The grass looks great IMO. Gets rid of the sometimes overused grey paving. Bilbao tram.

Damn.. that looks great.


I'm not opposed to greenery on the plaza but it most definitely should not be a park, or anything like it.

No. 1 foliage priority for Dublin imo is to replace those pathetic weeds on OCS with something more substantial.. or even a fleet of nice, aged Oaks? *dreams*

great thing about Dublin is that there are so many possibilities, sadly almost any vision is watered down into mediocrity by ABP, the single most mundane organisation in all of town planning, and it'll take a seriously loud public voice to push through anything with any spirit or balls.

donvito99

Yixian wrote: »

should not be a park.

I completely agree. I just think that Dublin really needs green, and not just those pathetic trees on O'Connell street, big ones.



This being an example. I can remeber a Helicopter following a strike down O'Connell street, and the whold thing, including street, top of buildings etc was horribly grey.

Yixian

donvito99 wrote: »

This being an example. I can remeber a Helicopter following a strike down O'Connell street, and the whold thing, including street, top of buildings etc was horribly grey.

Agreed, the trees down OCS should be far bigger and more lush, and extended down the bridge and along the liffy on both sides of the river. The trees that are their at the moment are far too weedy.

Well, with Ciaran Cuffe a Minister now, who knows, maybe it'll improve.

Irish and Proud

donvito99 wrote: »

I think this is a great idea. I hate they way roads in town bring the whole look of town to such a crappy level.

But I was thinking maybe more green space, rather than just a fountain and paving.

And maybe not as 'out there' as grand canal square.

Also, this is a bit OT, but maybe any future Luas developments could incorporate this into its design.





The grass looks great IMO. Gets rid of the sometimes overused grey paving. Bilbao tram.

...some parts of the LUAS lines are like that - the Red Line around St James and the Green Line around Miltown Viaduct.

Aard

I agree about GCD Square being too "out there". Assuming it's going to be modern, I think the look should be elegant at least. Not too many weird angles and greyness. Not that that doesn't work elsewhere, but for the "centre of the city" I think it doesn't fit.

Grass around the Luas tracks is nice, and might help delineate where is "tram-space" and where is "pedestrian-space".

I guess a functional problem will be allowing people to go in and out of Trinity safely. Such a square is likely to bring large crowds to an already densely trafficked part of town.

Victor

Craig Fay wrote: »

Not an expert, but here's what I would propose.

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff175/craigfay/1.jpg
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff175/craigfay/2.jpg

Thisa still leaves College Street, Westmoreland and D'Olier Street as major bus routes. However, it would require buses that currently go south through College Green to divert down Townsend Street, towards a reversed Westland Row and on towards Merrion Square. I haven't yet worked out what route they would take going north. Maybe Sandwith Street by the Dart Underground entrance? Any suggestions?

Um, low bridges?

Yixian

Aard wrote: »

I agree about GCD Square being too "out there". Assuming it's going to be modern, I think the look should be elegant at least. Not too many weird angles and greyness. Not that that doesn't work elsewhere, but for the "centre of the city" I think it doesn't fit.

Grass around the Luas tracks is nice, and might help delineate where is "tram-space" and where is "pedestrian-space".

I guess a functional problem will be allowing people to go in and out of Trinity safely. Such a square is likely to bring large crowds to an already densely trafficked part of town.

It won't be densely trafficked once pedestrianised.. the plaza would draw crowds, sure, but it would probably make getting into Trinity a lot easer when visitors and tourists aren't all squashed onto the pavements and up by the door.

dRNk SAnTA

Craig Fay wrote:

Thisa still leaves College Street, Westmoreland and D'Olier Street as major bus routes. However, it would require buses that currently go south through College Green to divert down Townsend Street, towards a reversed Westland Row and on towards Merrion Square. I haven't yet worked out what route they would take going north. Maybe Sandwith Street by the Dart Underground entrance? Any suggestions?

Could a redeveloped Hawkins House area replace Nassau Street as the current bus hub? Hawkins House will be close to the O'Connell St metro north station, the proposed connection of the 2 luas lines, and Tara St Dart station. Just a thought.

murphaph

dRNk SAnTA wrote: »

Could a redeveloped Hawkins House area replace Nassau Street as the current bus hub? Hawkins House will be close to the O'Connell St metro north station, the proposed connection of the 2 luas lines, and Tara St Dart station. Just a thought.

By that stage we really should have moved away from the "an lar" mentality of terminating most buses in the city centre like Dublin was an overgrown village.

Buses should fundamentally change their roles for much of the city once DART underground and metro north are open for business. The bus should feed passengers into the expanded rail system wherever possible (eg, the 68, 69, 39, 7 Buses etc. should become irrelevant in their current forms). Only areas that are genuinely too far from either DART 1/2 or MetroNorth or Luas (green line) for buses to feed into, should receive a high capacity bus to the city centre, but passing through the centre rather than terminating there.

dRNk SAnTA

murphaph wrote: »

By that stage we really should have moved away from the "an lar" mentality of terminating most buses in the city centre like Dublin was an overgrown village.

Sorry if I caused confusion!

I didn't mean redevelop Hawkins House as a bus station for routes to terminate at, instead I meant moving all the bus stops that are currently on Nassau Street to outside Hawkins House which would allow the buses to take a new route out of the city centre (via Townsend Street), as suggested by Craig. This way, we wouldn't have thousands of Buses needing to use the "pedestrianised" College Green.

It would also give all these bus routes a stop near the planned O'Connell Street metro north station, Tara Street DART station, and the proposed Luas link up line (BX?).

BluntGuy

murphaph wrote: »

By that stage we really should have moved away from the "an lar" mentality of terminating most buses in the city centre like Dublin was an overgrown village.

Buses should fundamentally change their roles for much of the city once DART underground and metro north are open for business. The bus should feed passengers into the expanded rail system wherever possible (eg, the 68, 69, 39, 7 Buses etc. should become irrelevant in their current forms). Only areas that are genuinely too far from either DART 1/2 or MetroNorth or Luas (green line) for buses to feed into, should receive a high capacity bus to the city centre, but passing through the centre rather than terminating there.

Absolutely 100% agreed.

Of course for this to work, we need integrated ticketing and integrated timetabling. There's no point having buses arrive and then the next DART is in 15-20 minutes (or vice verca). The aim should be for quick transfers at all of the important stops/stations - no more than 3-5 minutes at peak times, and certainly no more than 10 (max 15) off-peak.

FreudianSlippers

BluntGuy wrote: »

Absolutely 100% agreed.

Of course for this to work, we need integrated ticketing and integrated timetabling. There's no point having buses arrive and then the next DART is in 15-20 minutes (or vice verca). The aim should be for quick transfers at all of the important stops/stations - no more than 3-5 minutes at peak times, and certainly no more than 10 (max 15) off-peak.

Totally agree!

Yixian

It makes you wonder what in the name of god the Green were thinking even considering to scrap the metro in favour of buses. Both DARTu and MN will be electrified and with projects like Spirit of Ireland there is a possibility supplying that electricity can be done in a carbon neutral way - and here was a Green party suggesting it'd be better to chuck a load of petrol guzzling double deckers onto the already over-crowded roads!

I think we can all agree that College Green Plaza could not exist without the metro, and with the metro, the absence of a College Green Plaza becomes quite simply a farce.

Empire o de Sun

dRNk SAnTA wrote: »

Could a redeveloped Hawkins House area replace Nassau Street as the current bus hub? Hawkins House will be close to the O'Connell St metro north station, the proposed connection of the 2 luas lines, and Tara St Dart station. Just a thought.

Surely the lucan luas will be joined to the BX line and they can do a loop around O'Connell street and back out to lucan,

or are we going to fix one gap between the green and red and have another one between the lucan and the other two.

Sulmac

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

Surely the lucan luas will be joined to the BX line and they can do a loop around O'Connell street and back out to lucan,

or are we going to fix one gap between the green and red and have another one between the lucan and the other two.

You'd think so, but according to the RPA:

Luas Liberties commence on the St. James’s Road, where the new line will diverge from the Red Line to run along St. James’s Street, Thomas Street, High Street, Dame Street to a terminus located in College Green.

Very shortsighted if true, since providing a connection to the Green line would enable all sorts of routes, such as Lucan to Bray (eventually) or Broadstone to Citywest, as well as many more.

Aard

In fairness, if they build a Delta-junction in front of Trinity, there won't be much space left for a public square. It looks like one or the other

murphaph

If this silly Lucan Luas must go ahead, and along this alignment, I'd like to see it and the BX line buried under College Green in a cut and cover tunnel tbh. Then you could build a full delta junction allowing lots more route options in the future as the network expands, whilst maintaining the possibility of a world class public open space on College Green.

Other cities would have likely pedestrianised this whole thing already with such beautiful buildings surrounding the space. Even the "normal" buildings along the southern side of the green/dame st are really nice. Dublin needs to be an attractive place to live and work.

Victor

murphaph wrote: »

If this silly Lucan Luas must go ahead, and along this alignment, I'd like to see it and the BX line buried under College Green in a cut and cover tunnel tbh. Then you could build a full delta junction allowing lots more route options in the future as the network expands, whilst maintaining the possibility of a world class public open space on College Green.

Sure, this is an idea, but there are water table and archaeological issues with that.

Of course, the line may go to SSG and not College Green.

leshamry

there are a few options...

- terminus outside Starbucks
- single track to connect on the side/s for graveyard shifts
- underground to hawkins house
- underground into metro north going underground east of george st (hehehe)
- if there building it with no cables why not do it with metro north?
- join into the interconnector!

the good thing about buses is they loop easily...
schottentor is vienna is not to crash hotisish stephansplatz...

There is also another issue going to lucan it might be faster to jump onto metro north then the inconnector and ride a bike