Nationalism

joshuatree

Ok, so i don't know a whole lot about politics, and i'm just wondering, what are a nationalist's views on taxes? should they be high or low? and why? and also social welfare? views on that? oh and immigration?

Flamed Diving

Nationalism is a political view, not an economic view. You may as well ask what an atheists viewpoints on tax should be. However, Nationalists would definitely have something to say about immigration.

joshuatree

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Nationalism is a political view, not an economic view. You may as well ask what an atheists viewpoints on tax should be. However, Nationalists would definitely have something to say about immigration.

I understand that it's a political view, but so is conservatism, and they support lower taxes because they believe lower taxes will create an incentive for people to work, save, invest and engage in entreprenurial endeavours,so I thought a nationalist would have a view too.

loveissucide

Well, nationalism has nothing to do with economics so you're really barking up the wrong tree. However given the fact that nationalists seek to create a strong nation state, I would say that they would see Big Government as what is necessary to do so.

Flamed Diving

joshuatree wrote: »

I understand that it's a political view, but so is conservatism, and they support lower taxes because they believe lower taxes will create an incentive for people to work, save, invest and engage in entreprenurial endeavours,so I thought a nationalist would have a view too.

Well, is conservatism a homogeneous belief across the world? Does an American conservative share identical political ideals with a Tory? I'm not sure the Tories would be considered right-wing in the US:

Unlike Labour, we will increase spending on the NHS every year to meet rising demand and to achieve results that are amongst the best in the world. We will cut the deficit not the NHS.

http://www.conservatives.com/

Flamed Diving

loveissucide wrote: »

Well, nationalism has nothing to do with economics so you're really barking up the wrong tree. However given the fact that nationalists seek to create a strong nation state, I would say that they would see Big Government as what is necessary to do so.

Really? One could be a 'Minarchist' and still be a nationalist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minarchism

Gary L

joshuatree wrote: »

Ok, so i don't know a whole lot about politics, and i'm just wondering, what are a nationalist's views on taxes? should they be high or low? and why? and also social welfare? views on that? oh and immigration?

I've got a looser idea of nationalism, namely that it to some extent applies to anyone who thinks country of origin is a major dividing factor between people. Thats not to say it's an incorrect view.
As such I wouldn't attempt to group it tightly with any other ideology on life because its a sense I think we've all inherited. It's really only as communication and cross culture conversation increases that we could hope to see a 'people of the world'.

PomBear

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Nationalism is a political view, not an economic view. You may as well ask what an atheists viewpoints on tax should be. However, Nationalists would definitely have something to say about immigration.

Completely wrong, FF and SF are the strongist Nationalist parties in ROI, look at their immigration policies

PomBear

joshuatree wrote: »

I understand that it's a political view, but so is conservatism, and they support lower taxes because they believe lower taxes will create an incentive for people to work, save, invest and engage in entreprenurial endeavours,so I thought a nationalist would have a view too.

Conservatism and Nationalism aren't intertwined in any way shape or form, neither is Liberalism

Flamed Diving

PomBear wrote: »

Completely wrong, FF and SF are the strongist Nationalist parties in ROI, look at their immigration policies

You just contradicted yourself. :rolleyes:

PomBear

Flamed Diving wrote: »

You just contradicted yourself. :rolleyes:

How so

Flamed Diving

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Nationalists would definitely have something to say about immigration.

Statement A: Nationalists have something to say about immigration.

PomBear wrote: »

Completely wrong.

Statement B: Statement A is wrong.

PomBear wrote: »

FF and SF are the strongist Nationalist parties in ROI, look at their immigration policies

Statement C: Nationalist parties have something to say about immigration.

Flamed Diving wrote: »

You just contradicted yourself. :rolleyes:

Statement B and C cannot be both correct.

PomBear wrote: »

How so

See above.

PomBear

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Statement A: Nationalists have something to say about immigration.



Statement B: Statement A is wrong.



Statement C: Nationalist parties have something to say about immigration.



Statement B and C cannot be both correct.



See above.

and in what context was your post?

Nationalists would definitely have something to say about immigration.

Flamed Diving

PomBear wrote: »

and in what context was your post?

That a Nationalist would definitely have something to say about immigration... you thought I meant something else?

You see, when you jump to hysterical conclusions you tend to make a hames of things, like you just did. Try to read what a persons post actually says, in future, instead of reading what you want to see. As you can tell, it can get you in embarrassing situations.

Now, you are derailing the thread. So I consider this matter closed.

PomBear

Flamed Diving wrote: »

That a Nationalist would definitely have something to say about immigration... you thought I meant something else?

You see, when you jump to hysterical conclusions you tend to make a hames of things, like you just did. Try to read what a persons post actually says, in future, instead of reading what you want to see. As you can tell, it can get you in embarrassing situations.

Now, you are derailing the thread. So I consider this matter closed.

Someones not happy about the prospect of work tomorrow

Flamed Diving

PomBear wrote: »

Someones not happy about the prospect of work tomorrow

I'm a postgrad student. As said before:

when you jump to hysterical conclusions you tend to make a hames of things, like you just did.

Now, stop acting like a child and let it go.

Lockstep

Nationalism can be inclusive or exclusive and really cannot be seen in a one-size-fits-all term. Fascism and Nazism embrace a heavy degree of extreme nationalism combined with xenophobia.
Irish nationalist groups like Sinn Féin tend to be more inclusive and while glorifying Ireland and it's past, as a party do not seek to prevent immigrants from being a part of this nation.

PomBear

Flamed Diving wrote: »

I'm a postgrad student. As said before:



Now, stop acting like a child and let it go.

You seemed to try say nationalists would have something to say in terms of anti immigration, I would have the same interpretation as many others

Flamed Diving

PomBear wrote: »

You seemed to try say nationalists would have something to say in terms of anti immigration, I would have the same interpretation as many others

Nope. All in your mind.

Overheal

Nationalism is to Economics like Vegitarianism is to Heavy Metal....

But, the one thing a Nationalist would probably tell you is they believe in protectionism tactics; that is, heavy taxation of foreign imports. Similar to what's been going on frequently between 1st and 3rd world countries.

PomBear

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Nope. All in your mind.

What were you trying to say so?

Flamed Diving

PomBear wrote: »

What were you trying to say so?

No more than I posted. Sorry if this is too hard for you to take.

southsiderosie

Gary L wrote: »

I've got a looser idea of nationalism, namely that it to some extent applies to anyone who thinks country of origin is a major dividing factor between people. Thats not to say it's an incorrect view.
As such I wouldn't attempt to group it tightly with any other ideology on life because its a sense I think we've all inherited. It's really only as communication and cross culture conversation increases that we could hope to see a 'people of the world'.

Actually, developments in communication technology and mass media have historically helped to fuel nationalism, not dampen it. Benedict Anderson pointed this out in Imagined Communities; mass media makes it easier to spread propaganda and mass-produce culturally and linguistically materials cheaply. He used Magyars and the printing press as an example, but certainly the internet makes this process even easier.

Remmet

When we talk about nationalists are we really talkin bout republicans or are we talkin nationalists as in what the word means everywhere else?? - Sieg Heil types which we dont really have much of (thank god) in Ireland.

Republicans are nearly always left-wing and therefore would be in favor of high tax on the rich and I suppose in general and then good public services? Also immigration isn't an issue amongst republicans.

Nationalists: No idea bout taxes but I think immigration is an obvious one

dsmythy

Remmet wrote: »

When we talk about nationalists are we really talkin bout republicans or are we talkin nationalists as in what the word means everywhere else?? - Sieg Heil types which we dont really have much of (thank god) in Ireland.

Republicans are nearly always left-wing and therefore would be in favor of high tax on the rich and I suppose in general and then good public services? Also immigration isn't an issue amongst republicans.

Nationalists: No idea bout taxes but I think immigration is an obvious one

Nationalism does not equal Nazism.

Looking at various Nationalist movements across Europe their taxation policies range from ultra-progressive to total conservative. So it depends on the group in question OP.

MysNthR0p3

Where's the confusion between Nationalism and Immigration coming from?

Nationalism is a "devotion and loyalty to one's own nation; patriotism". I'm a Nationalist. I think Ireland is and should be a sovereign nation. I also believe (being an Irish "republican" (as opposed to the US definition)), that the ideal would be to have a 32 county Ireland with Ulster being part of The State.

Those are my beliefs as a Nationalist (and republican).

I also believe that people of any nationality may live and work here provided they are willing to abide by the laws of The State. I actually think we're better off being multicultural. Likewise I believe that people who favour Unionism have every right to live in Ulster as they most likely have been there for hundreds of years anyway. Just because they don't believe as I do doesn't negate their right to live where they do.

Those are my beliefs on immigration.

How are people confusing one term with the other?

Amhran Nua

Overheal wrote: »

But, the one thing a Nationalist would probably tell you is they believe in protectionism tactics; that is, heavy taxation of foreign imports. Similar to what's been going on frequently between 1st and 3rd world countries.

Thats not nationalism, its economic protectionism, and makes sense in many cases - for example the EU has heavy tarriffs on Chinese imports of clothes and shoes to protect local producers. In terms of food its simple war proofing, you don't want your food supply to be dependent on the tinpot dictator du jour. And it can work both ways, you can't purchase or own land in the Philippines as a foreigner, for example.

MysNthR0p3 wrote: »

Where's the confusion between Nationalism and Immigration coming from?

I think a lot of people have a horror of nationlism because of the problems caused in its name in the last century, notably world war 2. This is also one of the reasons some wish to see national identities subsumed into the larger EU mass (not naming any particular countries here), which is a really bad idea. However, its a force like any other, and can be harnessed for creative value as well as destructive.

amacachi

Personally I see nationalism along with religion, parochialism etc. as nothing but a hindrance to the development of all the people of the world.

Eliot Rosewater

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I think a lot of people have a horror of nationlism because of the problems caused in its name in the last century, notably world war 2.

In Ireland it is also due to the fact that the whole population is forced to swallow the Nationalists' pipe dream through compulsory Irish; that anyone who doesn't subscribe to the "Erin Go Bragh" attitude is to be looked down upon; and that Irish culture is superior just because it is the culture one is born into.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

This is also one of the reasons some wish to see national identities subsumed into the larger EU mass (not naming any particular countries here), which is a really bad idea.

Why do you think that?

Amhran Nua

amacachi wrote: »

Personally I see nationalism along with religion, parochialism etc. as nothing but a hindrance to the development of all the people of the world.

You're confusing those wrapped in the flag to further their own agendas (wearing the green jersey) with true cultural expression, art, poetry, music and dance, among others, which express the cultural/national identity of a people, the two are deeply intertwined. These are creative things and should be encouraged to enrich the world for everyone else.

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

In Ireland it is also due to the fact that the whole population is forced to swallow the Nationalists' pipe dream through compulsory Irish; that anyone who doesn't subscribe to the "Erin Go Bragh" attitude is to be looked down upon; and that Irish culture is superior just because it is the culture one is born into.

There is a lot more to Irish culture than the language, no idea where you are getting the hokey tourist image uber alles, and most cultures have a certain amount of self respect, sorry if you find that offensive.

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Why do you think that?

You think its a good idea to replace unique cultural identities with a beaurocracy?

Iwasfrozen

Amhran Nua wrote: »

You're confusing those wrapped in the flag to further their own agendas (wearing the green jersey) with true cultural expression, art, poetry, music and dance, among others, which express the cultural/national identity of a people, the two are deeply intertwined. These are creative things and should be encouraged to enrich the world for everyone else.

The problem with nationalism is that one will not only devote themselves to , poetry, music and dance they will also shout down any other form of , poetry, music and dance that is "not Irish". The problem is that nationalism always fosters a sense of racism and "I'm better then you because I'm from Ireland attitude."

Amhran Nua wrote: »

There is a lot more to Irish culture than the language, no idea where you are getting the hokey tourist image uber alles, and most cultures have a certain amount of self respect, sorry if you find that offensive.

Are you or are you not in favour of mandatory Irish for the Leaving Cert ?

Amhran Nua wrote: »

You think its a good idea to replace unique cultural identities with a beaurocracy?

If it means we never see another World War II then yes.